Author Topic: Straw Man  (Read 13300 times)

tonymctones

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 26520
Re: Straw Man
« Reply #50 on: August 04, 2009, 04:51:44 PM »
the link was IN the blog

I gave you specific instructions

go back and do it right

here's a quick test to prove you've actually done it

tell me the 2 companies that control 98% fo the health insurance market in Hawaii?
LOL blue cross/blue sheild and kaiser...now answer the question...

also you think linking to a organization that obviously is agenda based is evidence, this is taint amount to taking olbeirmens/oreillys word for it...

at any rate answer the question and dont give me an already answered it bullshit...

Straw Man

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 41015
  • one dwells in nirvana
Re: Straw Man
« Reply #51 on: August 04, 2009, 04:56:53 PM »
LOL blue cross/blue sheild and kaiser...now answer the question...

also you think linking to a organization that obviously is agenda based is evidence, this is taint amount to taking olbeirmens/oreillys word for it...

at any rate answer the question and dont give me an already answered it bullshit...

2 companies control essentially the entire market.  Is that good for the consumer?  Did you happen to see the profit growth among from 2000 to 2007 and also the growth in premiums compared to the growth in wages.  Can you see the the current system is unfair and fraught with abuse.

btw - what does "taint amount" mean?

Straw Man

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 41015
  • one dwells in nirvana
Re: Straw Man
« Reply #52 on: August 04, 2009, 04:58:27 PM »
LOL blue cross/blue sheild and kaiser...now answer the question...

also you think linking to a organization that obviously is agenda based is evidence, this is taint amount to taking olbeirmens/oreillys word for it...

at any rate answer the question and dont give me an already answered it bullshit...

what was the question again and try politely requesting rather than demanding (and yeah I did answer it but I'll repeat the answer again if you'd like)

tonymctones

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 26520
Re: Straw Man
« Reply #53 on: August 04, 2009, 05:05:27 PM »
what was the question again and try politely requesting rather than demanding (and yeah I did answer it but I'll repeat the answer again if you'd like)
politely such as this
answer my question please straw

ok so let me lay this out for you here straw as you never respond in other threads when I lay it out for you in them

If like obama says you will get the same care on the govt program as from private insurance and they are able to operate in the red as the VAST MAJORITY OF GOVT PROGRAMS DO. How will the private insurance companies compete?
answer the question of how a company that must make a profit to operate can compete with a company that doesnt need to make a profit can even operate in the red if they are as obama is saying going to be offering the same coverage?

Also if there is an increase in taxes do you think its fair if a person who chooses to use a private company is taxed to pay for another persons public option?

youve never answered the question simply side stepped and deflected

dkf360

  • Getbig II
  • **
  • Posts: 274
  • Getbig!
Re: Straw Man
« Reply #54 on: August 04, 2009, 05:11:27 PM »
politely such as thisanswer the question of how a company that must make a profit to operate can compete with a company that doesnt need to make a profit can even operate in the red if they are as obama is saying going to be offering the same coverage?

Also if there is an increase in taxes do you think its fair if a person who chooses to use a private company is taxed to pay for another persons public option?

youve never answered the question simply side stepped and deflected
Private health insurance companies already provide shitty services. Why would it matter if it was state sponsored or private?  What's the benefit to the insured of one solution over the other?

Straw Man

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 41015
  • one dwells in nirvana
Re: Straw Man
« Reply #55 on: August 04, 2009, 05:13:59 PM »
I've answered it numerous times.

first, I don't buy your premise that the govt plan will operate at a loss but let's just say it does.  It doesn't matter if it's a loss or not.  A business could run at a loss and still be more expensive and offer a worse product than their competitors.

Bottom line - there is a TON of money to be made in the industry and the health insurance companies will find a way to offer a competitive product at the right price in order to stay in the game.  If they don't then I couldn't give less of shit.   And, if I didn't have health insurance or was denied treatment by my insurer why would I even give a fuck if they go out of business.  Some will survive and thrive and other will not.  

Again, just like Fed Ex, DHL, UPS etc... can effectively compete with the US Postal Service, health insurance companies will find a way to adapt and compete.    


tonymctones

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 26520
Re: Straw Man
« Reply #56 on: August 04, 2009, 05:17:10 PM »
I've answered it numerous times.

first, I don't buy your premise that the govt plan will operate at a loss but let's just say it does.  It doesn't matter if it's a loss or not.  A business could run at a loss and still be more expensive and offer a worse product than their competitors.
Bottom line - there is a TON of money to be made in the industry and the health insurance companies will find a way to offer a competitive product at the right price in order to stay in the game.  If they don't then I couldn't give less of shit.   And, if I didn't have health insurance or was denied treatment by my insurer why would I even give a fuck if they go out of business.  Some will survive and thrive and other will not.  

Again, just like Fed Ex, DHL, UPS etc... can effectively compete with the US Postal Service, health insurance companies will find a way to adapt and compete.    


OK but see now if this happens the program will become nothing more then another money pit such as the USPS, dont you understand that?

so youre ok with the govt being the only medical insurer in the US then?


Straw Man

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 41015
  • one dwells in nirvana
Re: Straw Man
« Reply #57 on: August 04, 2009, 05:44:11 PM »
OK but see now if this happens the program will become nothing more then another money pit such as the USPS, dont you understand that?

so youre ok with the govt being the only medical insurer in the US then?
how in the world do you know anything about what will happen in the future.

Why didn't the US Postal Service put Fed Ex, UPS etc.. out of business.

PAY ATTENTION - I DON'T BUY THE PREMISE THAT PRIVATE HEALTH INSURANCE WILL GO AWAY.  What will most likely happen is that they will have to offer a better product in order to justify their higher costs (based again on your assumption that the govt plan will run in the red) or a better product at a better price



 

tonymctones

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 26520
Re: Straw Man
« Reply #58 on: August 04, 2009, 05:53:44 PM »
how in the world do you know anything about what will happen in the future.

Why didn't the US Postal Service put Fed Ex, UPS etc.. out of business.

PAY ATTENTION - I DON'T BUY THE PREMISE THAT PRIVATE HEALTH INSURANCE WILL GO AWAY.  What will most likely happen is that they will have to offer a better product in order to justify their higher costs (based again on your assumption that the govt plan will run in the red) or a better product at a better price
ITS COMMON FUCKING SENSE..............

THIS IS MY POINT STRAW...Are you happy with the way the USPS is run? happy about the large amount of tax dollars thrown into this money pit? OK b/c the USPS cannot really compete with private companies it has become a money pit so you have option 1

option 2 USPS outperforms or performs equally as well but is still able to operate in the red or even with a profit margin unsustainable by a private company...the private companies will only be able to compete for so long before folding...

I never said you were ok with no private insurance it was a question denoted by the "?" so please answer it...


I followed your link now you watch this video...obama point blank says he wants a single payer health care system...POINT BLANK...

Straw Man

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 41015
  • one dwells in nirvana
Re: Straw Man
« Reply #59 on: August 04, 2009, 06:04:01 PM »
ok - I watched 30 seconds and saw clips from at least two different times (one back in 2007).  I need to leave for home but I'll watch it later tonight.

Obama (like all politicians) say one thing on the campaign trail and do something else when they get elected.   

All that matters is what he is saying now and more importantly what he can get accomplished.

With the way health premiums are going I would most likely not have a problem with only having a single payer system.

btw - I also have no problem with the postal service.  Try asking UPS to mail a letter for 40 some cents and see what they say.   The problem is they've kept the prices down too long and the recent spike in fuel probably kicked them in the balls

I'm outa here for at least a few hours

tonymctones

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 26520
Re: Straw Man
« Reply #60 on: August 04, 2009, 06:09:30 PM »
ok - I watched 30 seconds and saw clips from at least two different times (one back in 2007).  I need to leave for home but I'll watch it later tonight.

Obama (like all politicians) say one thing on the campaign trail and do something else when they get elected.   

All that matters is what he is saying now and more importantly what he can get accomplished.

With the way health premiums are going I would most likely not have a problem with only having a single payer system.

btw - I also have no problem with the postal service.  Try asking UPS to mail a letter for 40 some cents and see what they say.   The problem is they've kept the prices down too long and the recent spike in fuel probably kicked them in the balls
I'm outa here for at least a few hours
LOL straw this post was one of your most ignorant...

it does matter what a politician said even years ago especially when it pertains to the issue at hand...

straw your are very wrong about the post office bro again my father is a carrier for them and worked for decades as a carrier. Things such as the internet, email, text messages, cell phones all have had a bad impact on the post office. Fuel prices are again WAY DOWN THE LIST...Horrible management is also a major factor in the problems the post office faces...

James

  • Guest
Re: Straw Man
« Reply #61 on: August 04, 2009, 08:57:23 PM »
Quote
I'd buy stock if I could" -  Straw Man

Quote
it's nice to see that a confederacy of dunces have aligned against me.

hey guys - news flash.

there is no bill yet.

the govt already does a good job with medicare
(go ask your parents or grand parents).

If/when we get a public option there will still be plenty of opportunity for private companies to actually compete and make money (again - look at the link to the report and see the exponential increase in profits and also the profound lack of competition).   If some can't compete then tough titties.  There will be plenty who find a way.

right now you're arguing about minutiae of an non-existent bill

Straw Brain, You really are the most ignorant person on GetBig

First you say you would invest in the U S postal Service if you could....

and now you write about how good medicare is ....

Medicare is almost broke, as is Medicaid, as is Social Security, as is the U S Postal Service.



Straw Man

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 41015
  • one dwells in nirvana
Re: Straw Man
« Reply #62 on: August 04, 2009, 10:30:58 PM »
Tommy/James

you guys crack me up with your pissing on the f'ng post office, medicare and pretty much ANYTHING provided by the US Govt by virtue of your tax dollars

It seems like your point of view is "the govt sucks at everything"


grab an umbrella

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 2039
Re: Straw Man
« Reply #63 on: August 04, 2009, 11:48:22 PM »
Tommy/James

you guys crack me up with your pissing on the f'ng post office, medicare and pretty much ANYTHING provided by the US Govt by virtue of your tax dollars

It seems like your point of view is "the govt sucks at everything"




Can you name a government program that hasn't massively gone over budget?

Straw Man

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 41015
  • one dwells in nirvana
Re: Straw Man
« Reply #64 on: August 05, 2009, 12:02:35 AM »

Can you name a government program that hasn't massively gone over budget?

how about the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan

wait, those were in the budget right?

?

grab an umbrella

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 2039
Re: Straw Man
« Reply #65 on: August 05, 2009, 12:26:46 AM »
how about the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan

wait, those were in the budget right?

?

I'm not asking for bullshit, or avoidance of my questions.  If you follow my posts, I'm not a fan of either war.  I just want an answer to that simple question.  Is that too much for you?

Soul Crusher

  • Competitors
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 39470
  • Doesnt lie about lifting.
Re: Straw Man
« Reply #66 on: August 05, 2009, 05:49:55 AM »
I'm not asking for bullshit, or avoidance of my questions.  If you follow my posts, I'm not a fan of either war.  I just want an answer to that simple question.  Is that too much for you?

What about Katrina and how that was handled by everly level of govt from the mayor to the governor to Borown to Bush???

Decker

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5782
Re: Straw Man
« Reply #67 on: August 05, 2009, 06:46:40 AM »


Medicare is almost broke, as is Medicaid, as is Social Security, as is the U S Postal Service.


Medicare is not almost broke.  Medicaid is not broke.  And Social Security is not broke.

Other than that, your arguments are dead on.

As for the Post office, it lost money and so did all its private competitors.  We're in a depression/recession.  Everybody is losing money.

Government is an efficient bogeyman for you.  It replaces any qualitative thought on your part.  I mean why analyze the complexity of any phenomenon?  You can just point to government and say, "baaaaaaaaaaaaad.'

Apparently your world breaks down to 'Gov. bad', 'privatization' gooooood'.

That's why people like you buy into the bullshit pushed by hucksters like Pete Schiff and Ron Paul.

Your admiration for their oversimplified elitest messages borders on unquestioning religious adoration.

That's why libertarianism is a young man's philosophy.  It's full of short sighted pablum that's easy to understand.  It exploits egoism as a profound truth.  Everyman for himself.  If there's a problem, then there's government for you.  Libertarianism makes the practitioner feel good - he thinks he can understand the overwhelming complexities of government and economy with only a few simple rules.

I believe that simpleton George Whorewell said it best, "libertarianism is the way to go."


Decker

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5782
Re: Straw Man
« Reply #68 on: August 05, 2009, 06:51:38 AM »

Can you name a government program that hasn't massively gone over budget?
Social Security.  Federal Student Loans.  FDIC. 

Here's a list of a few hundred government programs that are top notch:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/expectmore/rating/effective.html

Soul Crusher

  • Competitors
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 39470
  • Doesnt lie about lifting.
Re: Straw Man
« Reply #69 on: August 05, 2009, 06:58:13 AM »
Social Security.  Federal Student Loans.  FDIC. 

Here's a list of a few hundred government programs that are top notch:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/expectmore/rating/effective.html


You are such a joke.  FDIC is grossly underfunded.

Medicare is broke and you are going to believe the WH website while it it trying to push through a stupid health bill?

Decker

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5782
Re: Straw Man
« Reply #70 on: August 05, 2009, 07:00:54 AM »
You are such a joke.  FDIC is grossly underfunded.
I am such a joke....

Wow.  What insightful criticism.  I blame the government!

The FDIC will never go broke.  I'll give you a gov. chip if you can tell me why.

Quote
Medicare is broke and you are going to believe the WH website while it it trying to push through a stupid health bill?
Medicare is broke?  Show me the numbers that prove it's insolvent.

If you can't, I'll expect your retraction and a fucking apology.

Straw Man

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 41015
  • one dwells in nirvana
Re: Straw Man
« Reply #71 on: August 05, 2009, 08:39:35 AM »
I am such a joke....

Wow.  What insightful criticism.  I blame the government!

The FDIC will never go broke.  I'll give you a gov. chip if you can tell me why.
Medicare is broke?  Show me the numbers that prove it's insolvent.

If you can't, I'll expect your retraction and a fucking apology.

lol - Decker, there are people on this site (as you probably already know) who are the equivalent of the nut-job on the street corner with a sandwich board screaming about the end of the world.    We ignore them in real life but for some reason spend hours trying to talk with them rationally on a message board.   

Decker

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5782
Re: Straw Man
« Reply #72 on: August 05, 2009, 08:46:46 AM »
lol - Decker, there are people on this site (as you probably already know) who are the equivalent of the nut-job on the street corner with a sandwich board screaming about the end of the world.    We ignore them in real life but for some reason spend hours trying to talk with them rationally on a message board.   
Yeah, that's why I'm hitting the libertarians hard today.  The modern notion of libertarianism is easy to understand and appeals to selfishness of the worst kind therefore it must be true.

These fucking people.

All gov is bad.  And they believe it. ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhahaha hhaha

Soul Crusher

  • Competitors
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 39470
  • Doesnt lie about lifting.
Re: Straw Man
« Reply #73 on: August 05, 2009, 08:48:56 AM »
lol - Decker, there are people on this site (as you probably already know) who are the equivalent of the nut-job on the street corner with a sandwich board screaming about the end of the world.    We ignore them in real life but for some reason spend hours trying to talk with them rationally on a message board.   


THIS WAS FROM BEFORE THE FINANCIAL MELTODOWN.  

Medicare Will Go Broke By 2018, Trustees Report

By Amy Goldstein
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, May 2, 2006; Page A03

The financial troubles daunting the Medicare system have deepened during the past year, according to a government forecast that says the federal fund that pays for hospital care for older Americans will become unable to cover all its bills a dozen years from now.

The annual report, issued yesterday by the trustees who monitor the fiscal health of the Medicare and Social Security programs, said the trust fund for the health insurance system for the elderly will run out of money in 2018 -- two years sooner than predicted a year ago and 12 years sooner than had been anticipated when President Bush first took office.
 
The problem, the report says, has accelerated largely because hospital costs last year were greater than expected.

The forecast also said that Social Security's financial condition has weakened, although its problems are not as great or urgent. It said the retirement system will have enough cash to pay the benefits it owes retirees, disabled workers and workers' survivors until 2040 -- one year less than expected in the 2005 forecast.

In releasing the report, the trustees -- including three of Bush's Cabinet secretaries -- slightly altered the message accompanying the forecast the past few years, when the administration sought to use the predictions as leverage to persuade a reluctant Congress to embrace the president's goal of letting Americans divert some of their payroll taxes into personal retirement accounts. That emphasis prompted Democrats and other critics to chastise the administration for dwelling on Social Security while Medicare's problems were more acute.

Yesterday, the president's aides -- and Bush himself -- drew attention equally to the frailty of the two largest benefits programs that form the twin pillars of the government's assistance to the elderly. The solution, they said, is for Congress to approve changes Bush already has proposed.

Treasury Secretary John W. Snow, one of the trustees, said the programs "form the basis of a looming fiscal crisis for our nation as the baby-boom generation moves into retirement."

"The systems are going broke," Bush said in a health-care speech earlier in the day. "And now is the time to do something about it."

Administration officials portrayed the report as containing some bright news, because spending on the new Medicare prescription drug benefits -- paid for from general revenue, not the same trust fund as covers hospital bills -- appears less than expected. Several of Bush's aides said costs will be lower because drug companies are charging less than predicted for medicine. However, two independent trustees had a different explanation: Fewer Medicare patients are signing up for the drug benefits than anticipated last year.

Administration officials did not emphasize yesterday the idea of private retirement accounts, a plan that is relatively inert on Capitol Hill. Instead, they focused on proposals Bush made early this year -- to create a federal commission on the plight of entitlement programs and to slow Medicare spending by $36 billion during the next five years. Neither has drawn much enthusiasm among lawmakers.

And yesterday's report -- released a month after its due date -- did not produce any surge of momentum. The chairman and the top Democrat on the Senate Finance Committee are griping that the White House has diminished the role of independent experts in preparing the trustees' report, by failing to appoint replacements for the public trustees, economists Thomas R. Saving and John L. Palmer, when their terms expired a year ago.

Instead, the White House renominated them last November and, after lawmakers complained that they preferred to rotate outside trustees, installed them without Senate confirmation as "recess appointments" while Congress took Easter vacation. Saving and Palmer said yesterday they had served as unpaid consultants in preparing the report until they were reappointed.

White House spokesman Ken Lisiaus said that Saving and Palmer were reappointed because they "are true experts in economics" and that the position of public trustee, created in 1984, is too recent "to establish any sort of long-held precedent" that they must serve only one term.


tonymctones

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 26520
Re: Straw Man
« Reply #74 on: August 05, 2009, 09:02:12 AM »
Tommy/James

you guys crack me up with your pissing on the f'ng post office, medicare and pretty much ANYTHING provided by the US Govt by virtue of your tax dollars

It seems like your point of view is "the govt sucks at everything"


well you certainly live up to your name  ::) I guess I could say that you think that govt is the answer to everything couldnt I?