Author Topic: Federal Judge Orders End to Warrantless Wiretapping  (Read 13327 times)

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Re: Federal Judge Orders End to Warrantless Wiretapping
« Reply #50 on: August 18, 2006, 01:07:03 PM »
When you say that the government has the potential to be corrupt, you DO realize that judges need to be included in that picture too, am I correct?  A judge could decide not to issue a warrant based on his political convictions, which could help or hurt us in a situation like this.   Agreed?

yes.  but then we have two points of failure, HIGHLY rare.  Plus, we could have every search warrant/tap reviewed by 2 judges.  Or 6 judges.  It can be a random selection process to ensure that nobody knows which orders will be reviewed by which judges.  Instead of the document being shredded at the end of the day, it goes into a federal record (albeit, a very top secret one).  

If they know that any search warrant, once issued, will be randomly reviewed then made part of sealed public record forever, the chances of shadiness are going to drop tremendously.


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Re: Federal Judge Orders End to Warrantless Wiretapping
« Reply #51 on: August 18, 2006, 01:14:58 PM »
yes.  but then we have two points of failure, HIGHLY rare.  Plus, we could have every search warrant/tap reviewed by 2 judges.  Or 6 judges.  It can be a random selection process to ensure that nobody knows which orders will be reviewed by which judges.  Instead of the document being shredded at the end of the day, it goes into a federal record (albeit, a very top secret one).  

If they know that any search warrant, once issued, will be randomly reviewed then made part of sealed public record forever, the chances of shadiness are going to drop tremendously.
In my opinion, the more judges involved the higher the chances of corruption.  Remember, these judges are appointed by the sitting president.  This is why politicians work so hard to fight for or against appointees.  So politics will follow this warrant where ever it goes or is denied.  All of these checks and balances are great, but there's still a tremendous amount opportunity for corruption. 

OzmO

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Re: Federal Judge Orders End to Warrantless Wiretapping
« Reply #52 on: August 18, 2006, 01:18:36 PM »
In my opinion, the more judges involved the higher the chances of corruption.  Remember, these judges are appointed by the sitting president.  This is why politicians work so hard to fight for or against appointees.  So politics will follow this warrant where ever it goes or is denied.  All of these checks and balances are great, but there's still a tremendous amount opportunity for corruption. 

Checks and Balnaces deminish the opportunity for curruption C-500.  when you leave the power in the hands of fewer people with out checks and balances the potential for corruption increases.

Colossus_500

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Re: Federal Judge Orders End to Warrantless Wiretapping
« Reply #53 on: August 18, 2006, 01:25:22 PM »
Checks and Balnaces deminish the opportunity for curruption C-500.  when you leave the power in the hands of fewer people with out checks and balances the potential for corruption increases.
I see the point you and 240 are making, Oz.  But what I'm saying is that we give too much credence to our checks and balances system, as if it isn't corrupt itself.  That's why I make the point about the judges.  Right now, the buck stops with the judges.  Who's checking behind them?  So we get a review panel...who's watching the review panel?  See what I  mean?  You end up with committee and sub-committees like we have in washington...who are doing absolutely nothing.

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Re: Federal Judge Orders End to Warrantless Wiretapping
« Reply #54 on: August 18, 2006, 01:32:49 PM »
I see the point you and 240 are making, Oz.  But what I'm saying is that we give too much credence to our checks and balances system, as if it isn't corrupt itself.  That's why I make the point about the judges.  Right now, the buck stops with the judges.  Who's checking behind them?  So we get a review panel...who's watching the review panel?  See what I  mean?  You end up with committee and sub-committees like we have in washington...who are doing absolutely nothing.

Yeah i hear ya, but in the end...when it comes down to the "government" having access to my private stuff with out any measure of control or accountablity, then i'd like a Judge's approval first. 

It's not an unreasonalbe thing to ask for citizens of the United States of America.

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Re: Federal Judge Orders End to Warrantless Wiretapping
« Reply #55 on: August 18, 2006, 01:34:57 PM »
I see the point you and 240 are making, Oz.  But what I'm saying is that we give too much credence to our checks and balances system, as if it isn't corrupt itself.  That's why I make the point about the judges.  Right now, the buck stops with the judges.  Who's checking behind them?  So we get a review panel...who's watching the review panel?  See what I  mean?  You end up with committee and sub-committees like we have in washington...who are doing absolutely nothing.

You have hawks watching them, from BOTH parties, who 1) go to prison for leaking it, and 2) look very very good when they do find an anomaly in the warrants.  

So they are very motivated to 1) Not leak anything, and 2) look for mistakes/shadiness.

"The more people watching, the more opportunities for corruption" doesn't make sense here, because if corrpution occurs at the beginning of the chain (exec branch), and it is viewed by 2 to 4 DIFFERENT people, ANY of which who sees an error will blow the whistle, you pretty much eliminate any chance for breaking the rules.

When you are required to write down every warrant, and you know that anything you write down will be viewed by people very eager to catch you breaking the law... are you going to break the law?

Mr. Intenseone

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Re: Federal Judge Orders End to Warrantless Wiretapping
« Reply #56 on: August 18, 2006, 01:53:14 PM »
I would call for Impeachment over all the other illegal things he has done.  :P

Most Libs would wether it was illegal or not.........they would want to Impeach just because he's George Bush and a Republican, nothing more nothing less!

OzmO

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Re: Federal Judge Orders End to Warrantless Wiretapping
« Reply #57 on: August 18, 2006, 01:56:20 PM »
Again.... chained to your party...

And republicans wouldn't want to impeach just becuase he/she was a democrat?   

puh-leeze!   :P

Cavalier22

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Re: Federal Judge Orders End to Warrantless Wiretapping
« Reply #58 on: August 18, 2006, 02:01:38 PM »
Yes, some kind of judge would be ideal.  They need to set up some kind of system where there is one on call at all times and it doesnt take days and days to do the process.

As far as Bush goes, pisses me off.  But i really hope as a president of the US you care a lot more about your country and your legacy than about gettin more saudi oil ties so you can get even richer when you retire. 
Valhalla awaits.

Cavalier22

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Re: Federal Judge Orders End to Warrantless Wiretapping
« Reply #59 on: August 18, 2006, 02:02:14 PM »
one's opinion
Valhalla awaits.

OzmO

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Re: Federal Judge Orders End to Warrantless Wiretapping
« Reply #60 on: August 18, 2006, 02:25:51 PM »
one's opinion

Everyone deseerves equial treatment under the law. 

And severe punishment when found guilty.

240 is Back

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Re: Federal Judge Orders End to Warrantless Wiretapping
« Reply #61 on: August 18, 2006, 03:05:01 PM »
Yes, some kind of judge would be ideal.  They need to set up some kind of system where there is one on call at all times and it doesnt take days and days to do the process.

Oh, it'll still be instant warrant approval, just as it is now.  The issue is whether or not the exec branch ever has to let the judicial branch see it AFTER the fact. 

If they have nothing to hide, I don't see why letting the judicial branch review the searches/taps for legality is a problem.  Their insistance on "No one needs to ever know what we're doing",  even another part of the govt, is just insane.

Mr. Intenseone

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Re: Federal Judge Orders End to Warrantless Wiretapping
« Reply #62 on: August 18, 2006, 03:15:35 PM »
Again.... chained to your party...

And republicans wouldn't want to impeach just becuase he/she was a democrat?   

puh-leeze!   :P

No..I'm not, but everytime Bush makes a move the Democrats try to sabatage it.....it's rediculous. Have you listend to Nancy Polosi, Ted Kennedy, Gore, both Clintons, Murtha, etc,etc,etc? Their (Dems) are out to get him at any cost, they cock block the every move!

OzmO

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Re: Federal Judge Orders End to Warrantless Wiretapping
« Reply #63 on: August 18, 2006, 03:18:41 PM »
No..I'm not, but everytime Bush makes a move the Democrats try to sabatage it.....it's rediculous. Have you listend to Nancy Polosi, Ted Kennedy, Gore, both Clintons, Murtha, etc,etc,etc? Their (Dems) are out to get him at any cost, they cock block the every move!

Yeah  i know that,  Are you implying the republicans don't do the same stuff?  Com on.  Remember:  I'm sick of both parties. Just not as sick of the dems at the moment...but give me a little more time  ;D

240 is Back

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Re: Federal Judge Orders End to Warrantless Wiretapping
« Reply #64 on: August 18, 2006, 03:20:05 PM »
No..I'm not, but everytime Bush makes a move the Democrats try to sabatage it.....it's rediculous. Have you listend to Nancy Polosi, Ted Kennedy, Gore, both Clintons, Murtha, etc,etc,etc? Their (Dems) are out to get him at any cost, they cock block the every move!

I agree - the dems are full of shit and they have no message and no real idea what they woudl do if they got into office.

the repubs, well, they have a pretty clear idea - they are working to garner some serious control over this country.  This is good for safety, but their secrecy - to the point of HIDING IT FROM OTHER BRANCHES - is absurd.  

I'm still a repub, but I think it needs to go back to being the party FOR personal liberties.  They've been playing the boogeyman card for a tad too long now.

Mr. Intenseone

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Re: Federal Judge Orders End to Warrantless Wiretapping
« Reply #65 on: August 18, 2006, 03:31:46 PM »
Yeah  i know that,  Are you implying the republicans don't do the same stuff?  Com on.  Remember:  I'm sick of both parties. Just not as sick of the dems at the moment...but give me a little more time  ;D

Of course I realize both parties do it, but at least the Republicans can disagree with one another and not get shit canned from the party and get their back turned on them. Leiberman is a great example, for a long time I liked this guy, he had strong principles and a fantastic track record for over 30 years, if he would have been nominated and ran against Bush and Bush lost, I thought he would have made a great President, I would have been happy either way, but because he disagreed with ONE issue and stood by the President on it, he more or less got ousted from his party and they turned thier back on him.....not right, simply not right!

24KT

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Re: Federal Judge Orders End to Warrantless Wiretapping
« Reply #66 on: August 18, 2006, 06:04:44 PM »
This isn't any kind of impeachable offense.  He thought what he was doing was okay.  The judge disagreed.  He'll now do what the judge says, absent a different interpretation from the appellate court.  If the president secretly disobeys a court order, then we can talk impeachment.  

Actually BeachBum, Bush knew it was illegal. He's been advised of that many times and has indicated he'd do it anyway. He just attorney shops til he finds an attorney who will give a skewed enough interpretation, then, acts based on advise from counsel. In the end, he just points to faulty advise from counsel.  :-\ Personally, I don't think the wiretapping is as serious an offense as some of his other offenses which are most definitely impeachable. They do have grave implications though. He really should be brought to justice.
w

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Re: Federal Judge Orders End to Warrantless Wiretapping
« Reply #67 on: August 18, 2006, 06:05:36 PM »
Even if it's not on the web, I very strongly resent any diminishing of my privacy.  And you never know when things can be leaked . . . what if you decide to run for office? Do people need to know who you were shtupping when you were in college? the govt. could accumulate all sorts of info on you, and interested people could leak it . . .
LOL! You think the Government leaks that info? Try the media bro.

Quote
Yes, even if they were my neighbor, I would want them to have a warrant.  Warrants are not too hard to obtain, and they protect you and me . . . what if it was your house they decided to barge into?
LOL, again. You must not work around law enforcement. Ask a Dectective how difficult it may be to get a warrant. Not to mention that events can happen in minutes, where a warrant to be granted could take up to hours. As for my home, it was searched because I ALLOWED them to come in with out a warrant when someone in my family was being "checked " on for supposed selling of drugs. They were polite and didn't wreck anything.

Quote
Yes, things have changed, but I want to keep as many of my rights as I can . . . that's what makes this nation great. that's what separates us from other nations. I could live anywhere in the world, but i choose to live in the US b/c of our rule of law . . . helps protect the individual from the "tyranny of the majority."
This is "one" right you should be willing to give up for the safety of others. You must live in a non-violent area because there are many who wished that criminals were "watched" more closely.

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Re: Federal Judge Orders End to Warrantless Wiretapping
« Reply #68 on: August 18, 2006, 06:52:49 PM »
Most Libs would wether it was illegal or not.........they would want to Impeach just because he's George Bush and a Republican, nothing more nothing less!

I swear to you.... I loved George W Bush when he first ran, but anyone that is still a supporter after he has fucked this country in so many ways is an anti American pussy <unt.
S

Mr. Intenseone

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Re: Federal Judge Orders End to Warrantless Wiretapping
« Reply #69 on: August 18, 2006, 07:07:32 PM »
Actually BeachBum, Bush knew it was illegal. He's been advised of that many times and has indicated he'd do it anyway. He just attorney shops til he finds an attorney who will give a skewed enough interpretation, then, acts based on advise from counsel. In the end, he just points to faulty advise from counsel.  :-\ Personally, I don't think the wiretapping is as serious an offense as some of his other offenses which are most definitely impeachable. They do have grave implications though. He really should be brought to justice.

Of course, he purposly blames it on fautly Counsil ::).....again, if you think he should be brought to justice, then go after the Presidents before him as well, but that ain't gonna happen because it wasn't illegal!!

Mr. Intenseone

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Re: Federal Judge Orders End to Warrantless Wiretapping
« Reply #70 on: August 18, 2006, 07:09:54 PM »
LOL! You think the Government leaks that info? Try the media bro.

More specifically, the NY Times!

OzmO

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Re: Federal Judge Orders End to Warrantless Wiretapping
« Reply #71 on: August 18, 2006, 07:59:29 PM »
LOL! You think the Government leaks that info? Try the media bro.
LOL, again. You must not work around law enforcement. Ask a Dectective how difficult it may be to get a warrant. Not to mention that events can happen in minutes, where a warrant to be granted could take up to hours. As for my home, it was searched because I ALLOWED them to come in with out a warrant when someone in my family was being "checked " on for supposed selling of drugs. They were polite and didn't wreck anything.
This is "one" right you should be willing to give up for the safety of others. You must live in a non-violent area because there are many who wished that criminals were "watched" more closely.

I don't care....... F**K that.  The answer isn't to violate our rights the answer is to fix the system so they can get a warrant faster.

Just becuase you got "polite" police doesn't mean they are all that way.  When someone or some government agency has the right to snoop in my affairs with out "Checks and Bakances" at one point or another there will be abuse.  We broke from England to get away from shit like that.

Purge_WTF

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Re: Federal Judge Orders End to Warrantless Wiretapping
« Reply #72 on: August 18, 2006, 08:07:36 PM »
I swear to you.... I loved George W Bush when he first ran, but anyone that is still a supporter after he has fucked this country in so many ways is an anti American pussy <unt.

 Amen.

Al-Gebra

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Re: Federal Judge Orders End to Warrantless Wiretapping
« Reply #73 on: August 18, 2006, 08:28:57 PM »
More specifically, the NY Times!

hahaha, and who spoke to the NY Times, and who authorized it. c'mon guys, don't get all jaguarish on me  . . . let's get to the bottom of things.

Al-Gebra

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Re: Federal Judge Orders End to Warrantless Wiretapping
« Reply #74 on: August 18, 2006, 08:39:34 PM »
LOL! You think the Government leaks that info? Try the media bro.
LOL, again. You must not work around law enforcement. Ask a Dectective how difficult it may be to get a warrant. Not to mention that events can happen in minutes, where a warrant to be granted could take up to hours. As for my home, it was searched because I ALLOWED them to come in with out a warrant when someone in my family was being "checked " on for supposed selling of drugs. They were polite and didn't wreck anything.
This is "one" right you should be willing to give up for the safety of others. You must live in a non-violent area because there are many who wished that criminals were "watched" more closely.

1. no judge is going to deny a reasonable claim. if not, they can ask the party to let them in . . . like they did with you. if the party denies them entry and if they think it's serious, then they can put them under surveillance . . .

2.  no, i'm not giving up any of my rights . . . as Ozmo said, fix the system.