Federal judge rules morning-after pill must be available for women of all ages

[Dos Equis]

This is pretty much my argument.  Considering that the age of consent in most states is 16, the guide post for when teens are in charge of their sexual behavior is already established, and it isn't t thirteen.  You may disagree and believe that anyone under eighteen is under the authority of their parents and I understand that argument, but  I'm arguing strictly based on the established law.

Agree.  We actually had to fight with the governor to raise it from 14 to 16.   

[avxo]

A 13-year-old girl is not a "woman."  She's a girl.  A kid. More importantly, according to society she's a minor who is unable to make any life-changing decisions on her own without parental (or guardian) consent, including obtaining prescription medication, driving a car, going to the doctor, going to the dentist, buying alcohol, buying cigarettes, deciding whether or not to have surgery, deciding whether to be a Mormon, Muslim, or Catholic, etc., etc.  I don't see a decision regarding what should be prescription medication for an abortion pill or a medical decision to have an abortion as any different.

You seem to operate under the misconception that minors have no rights. That is not correct. I agree that parents should be making decisions for their children, but children aren't slaves and have rights, which even parents can't infringe.

Do you genuinely believe that a parent should be allowed to force a kid (as you so aptly put it) to carry a child to term and go through labor? Then what? Do you then believe that a parent should be allowed to force this kid (again, your words) to, for example, breastfeed the infant?

A better question still, since the 13-year old is now a parent herself, do you believe that she - and she alone - can choose to put the baby up for adoption or to keep and raise it herself? Or do you believe that her parents get to preempt her parental authority and exercise it on her behalf since she's still a minor?

Your position - like all absolutists who see things as black and white - is untenable and crumbles away when exposed to a reality that is all shades of gray.

I'm in favor of the broader principle as it applies to all legal decisions regarding the minor child, which of course would include abortion.

In other words you believe that once the parents force their thirteen year old to carry a pregnancy to term, they can their make decisions for the infant as well, preempting the actual parent's right to make legal decisions regarding her minor child.

It simply defies common sense to start drawing arbitrary lines for kids and allow them to make adult decisions in situations like this.  What's outrageous too is it may help cover up a crime.  A 13-year-old girl cannot consent to sex, so any 13-year-old girl who is pregnant is a victim.  Her parents should know.  Law enforcement should know.

You raise the point that it would be a crime, and you are right. This is, perhaps, your strongest argument. But let's see how it works in a few corner cases, shall we? Let's assume we are in a State where the age of consent is 15, and the girl in question is 16. Now what?

[avxo]

first off i'm not against abortion.  i don't harshly judge people who have had abortions.  but i do believe that our end goal should be to have as few of them as possible.  that is, we should strive to miminimize as much as we can, unwanted pregnancies.  i do not believe that goal is achieved by throwing condoms at kids in schools.  its solved by teaching kids about personal responsibility and respect for their bodies.  i know thats a more difficult task than giving away condoms and pills but when is doing the right thing ever the easy thing?

i'm also experienced enough to know that if you treat women with respect and yourself with respect and take the necessary precautions when engaged in sexual activity the chances of unwanted pregnancy go down drastically.  if you don't believe this I can't help you.  People who don't believe this are the reason why we have so many young girls and boys in these predicaments in the first place.  I also don't get the impression that you realize the psychological implications abortion has on young women and men.  again i don't believe that abortion is ALWAYS the answer.  its a band aid solution to a much bigger problem.    

Of course I support minimizing the number of abortions (and unwanted pregnancies). What rational person doesn't? And to clarify, I don't believe abortion is always the answer; I don't believe any one thing is always the answer. What I do believe is that people ought to be informed and have access to a wide range of methods to protect themselves and stay in control of their body, without having to ask for the permission, consent or moral approval or someone else. What I don't believe is that any one group's moral and religious beliefs should dictate how others must live their life.

As for whether I personally realize the psychological implications of abortion, I'd urge you to not draw conclusions. You know nothing about me personally or my past history.

[bears]

I'm a hard left liberal? Really? Damn...

The weird thing about being a libertarian is that the nutjobs from the left call me a far-right loonie and the nutjobs from the right call me a far-left loonie.

you want a 13 year old child to be able to walk into an abortion clinic and get an abortion without notifying their parents.  no questions asked.  some of my most hard left liberal friends would think thats incredibly irresponsible to allow something like that.  just sayin.

[tu_holmes]

I'm a hard left liberal? Really? Damn...

The weird thing about being a libertarian is that the nutjobs from the left call me a far-right loonie and the nutjobs from the right call me a far-left loonie.

I have the same issues.

The reality is that because people do not do things like everyone else wants them to do it, they decide to label you.


On no level is Beach Bum correct in believing he has the right to force a person, any person to have a baby if they choose not to.

Legally he has no leg to stand on there, so he can get that notion out of his head... Being an attorney he should know this.

[Dos Equis]

You seem to operate under the misconception that minors have no rights. That is not correct. I agree that parents should be making decisions for their children, but children aren't slaves and have rights, which even parents can't infringe.

Do you genuinely believe that a parent should be allowed to force a kid (as you so aptly put it) to carry a child to term and go through labor? Then what? Do you then believe that a parent should be allowed to force this kid (again, your words) to, for example, breastfeed the infant?

A better question still, since the 13-year old is now a parent herself, do you believe that she - and she alone - can choose to put the baby up for adoption or to keep and raise it herself? Or do you believe that her parents get to preempt her parental authority and exercise it on her behalf since she's still a minor?

Your position - like all absolutists who see things as black and white - is untenable and crumbles away when exposed to a reality that is all shades of gray.


In other words you believe that once the parents force their thirteen year old to carry a pregnancy to term, they can their make decisions for the infant as well, preempting the actual parent's right to make legal decisions regarding her minor child.


You raise the point that it would be a crime, and you are right. This is, perhaps, your strongest argument. But let's see how it works in a few corner cases, shall we? Let's assume we are in a State where the age of consent is 15, and the girl in question is 16. Now what?

I never said minors don't rights.  What I said is they are not permitted to make life changing decisions or the important decisions I specifically listed (yes there are others).

A minor doesn't become emancipated solely because she has a baby, so yes the parent should be able to tell her to breast feed.  Or take a pill.  Or not take a pill.  Or got to physical therapy.  Or have surgery.  What the heck does breastfeeding have to do with whether a minor should be allowed to buy an abortion pill without her parents' knowledge and consent??

There is always, black, white, and gray.  There is a lot of gray when it comes to the entire abortion question.  Not so much so when talking about parental rights and the lack of a minor's ability and capacity to make adult decisions.  

If a kid gets pregnant and is over the agent of consent when she has sex, then of course we cannot assume a crime has been committed.  So what?  That doesn't detract at all from the central issue of the parents doing whats best for their minor child, and not allowing a minor to make adult decisions without the parents knowledge.  

[tu_holmes]

Sex isn't a life changing decision?

[avxo]

I never said minors don't rights.  What I said is they are not permitted to make life changing decisions or the important decisions I specifically listed (yes there are others).

You are wrong - minors are legally permitted to make all sorts of life-changing decisions, including to engage in sex if they are over the age of consent.

A minor doesn't become emancipated solely because she has a baby, so yes the parent should be able to tell her to breast feed.

Wow... that's just way out there... let's see how far off the deep end you're willing to go.

• Should the parent be able to put his infant grandchild up for adoption, exercising surrogate parental authority on behalf of his daughter?
• Should the parent be able to force the child to, say, have a hysterectomy after she carries that first child to term?
• Should the parent be able to force the child to donate a lobe from her liver to save a sibling?

What the heck does breastfeeding have to do with whether a minor should be allowed to buy an abortion pill without her parents' knowledge and consent??

It has everything to do with a mentality that says that children have no rights and aren't under the care of their parents; they're under their absolute and unrestricted control.

There is always, black, white, and gray.  There is a lot of gray when it comes to the entire abortion question.  Not so much so when talking about parental rights and the lack of a minor's ability and capacity to make adult decisions.

So let's review: in your view a 13-year that becomes pregnant can be forced to carry the child to term, forced to breastfeed said child, and has no say as a parent herself in the rearing of her child, because her parental authority, like all her legal rights, is exercised by her parents?

You are FUCKING INSANE.

[bears]

I have the same issues.

The reality is that because people do not do things like everyone else wants them to do it, they decide to label you.


On no level is Beach Bum correct in believing he has the right to force a person, any person to have a baby if they choose not to.

Legally he has no leg to stand on there, so he can get that notion out of his head... Being an attorney he should know this.

one could also argue that we have no right to tell a 13 year old who she can and cannot have sex with.  even if it is a 35 year old man with herpes.

[tu_holmes]

one could also argue that we have no right to tell a 13 year old who she can and cannot have sex with.  even if it is a 35 year old man with herpes.

One could... but legally the law already has consent statutes...

[Dos Equis]

You are wrong - minors are legally permitted to make all sorts of life-changing decisions, including to engage in sex if they are over the age of consent.


Wow... that's just way out there... let's see how far off the deep end you're willing to go.

• Should the parent be able to put his infant grandchild up for adoption, exercising surrogate parental authority on behalf of his daughter?
• Should the parent be able to force the child to, say, have a hysterectomy after she carries that first child to term?
• Should the parent be able to force the child to donate a lobe from her liver to save a sibling?

It has everything to do with a mentality that says that children have no rights and aren't under the care of their parents; they're under their absolute and unrestricted control.


So let's review: in your view a 13-year that becomes pregnant can be forced to carry the child to term, forced to breastfeed said child, and has no say as a parent herself in the rearing of her child, because her parental authority, like all her legal rights, is exercised by her parents?

You are FUCKING INSANE.

Yes, minors above the age of consent can make some life-changing decisions.  We don't allow 13-year-olds to do so.  

You're repeatedly asking the same question.  Use the scroll function for an answer.  

Insane?  And you're same one crying about people calling you names?  Can you recommend a good shrink?  

[bears]

You are wrong - minors are legally permitted to make all sorts of life-changing decisions, including to engage in sex if they are over the age of consent.


Wow... that's just way out there... let's see how far off the deep end you're willing to go.

• Should the parent be able to put his infant grandchild up for adoption, exercising surrogate parental authority on behalf of his daughter?
• Should the parent be able to force the child to, say, have a hysterectomy after she carries that first child to term?
• Should the parent be able to force the child to donate a lobe from her liver to save a sibling?

It has everything to do with a mentality that says that children have no rights and aren't under the care of their parents; they're under their absolute and unrestricted control.


So let's review: in your view a 13-year that becomes pregnant can be forced to carry the child to term, forced to breastfeed said child, and has no say as a parent herself in the rearing of her child, because her parental authority, like all her legal rights, is exercised by her parents?

You are FUCKING INSANE.

right keep the parents out of it.  it none of their business if their 13 year old is having an abortion because she had sex with a 35 year old man.  keep it all a secret for her.  i don't see any downside tho that  

[bears]

You are wrong - minors are legally permitted to make all sorts of life-changing decisions, including to engage in sex if they are over the age of consent.


Wow... that's just way out there... let's see how far off the deep end you're willing to go.

• Should the parent be able to put his infant grandchild up for adoption, exercising surrogate parental authority on behalf of his daughter?
• Should the parent be able to force the child to, say, have a hysterectomy after she carries that first child to term?
• Should the parent be able to force the child to donate a lobe from her liver to save a sibling?

It has everything to do with a mentality that says that children have no rights and aren't under the care of their parents; they're under their absolute and unrestricted control.


So let's review: in your view a 13-year that becomes pregnant can be forced to carry the child to term, forced to breastfeed said child, and has no say as a parent herself in the rearing of her child, because her parental authority, like all her legal rights, is exercised by her parents?

You are FUCKING INSANE.

thinking that a 13 year old doesn't need parental guidance in a situation involving an unwanted pregnancy is INSANE.  how you can't see that is ridiculous.  and you are obviously not a parent.

[avxo]

Yes, minors above the age of consent can make some life-changing decisions.  We don't allow 13-year-olds to do so.  

Alright then.

Let's assume we have a 16-year old. She is legally allowed to consent. Can her parents prevent her from consenting because she is a minor?

Let's assume that our 16-year old chooses to consent to the advances of a guy from school. She gets pregnant. Remember, this was a decision she was legally entitled to make. Now... can you please answer the following questions about our pregnant 16 year old? A yes or no will do.

Can her parents force her to have an abortion?
Can her parents force her to carry the child to term?
Can her parents force her to breastfeed?
Can her parents exercise her own parental authority on her behalf?
Can her parents put her child up for adoption?
Can her parents force her to have a hysterectomy?
Can her parents force her to donate a kidney?

Insane?  And you're same one crying about people calling you names?  Can you recommend a good shrink?

I don't think calling you insane is calling you names if you really do support the positions you claim to support.

[avxo]

right keep the parents out of it.  it none of their business if their 13 year old is having an abortion because she had sex with a 35 year old man.  keep it all a secret for her.  i don't see any downside tho that  

You are welcome to attack my position - and you can be sure I will defend it. What I am not going to do is defend some imaginary position that you create and then pretend is my own. Show me where I said "keep the parents out of it" (or, for that matter, where I mentioned sex the imaginary 13-year old having sex with a 35-year old).

This sort of straw-man argument is typical of you and your ilk - you can't challenge a position so you twist it and challenge that instead.

thinking that a 13 year old doesn't need parental guidance in a situation involving an unwanted pregnancy is INSANE.  how you can't see that is ridiculous.  and you are obviously not a parent.

Again you're attacking a position other than my own. I never said that a 13 year old doesn't need parental guidance - especially in this situation. I said something very different: namely that parents don't exercise absolute authority over their children and that their children have rights of their own. You may find this concept novel, but I assure you, it is not.

[Dos Equis]

Alright then.

Let's assume we have a 16-year old. She is legally allowed to consent. Can her parents prevent her from consenting because she is a minor?

Let's assume that our 16-year old chooses to consent to the advances of a guy from school. She gets pregnant. Remember, this was a decision she was legally entitled to make. Now... can you please answer the following questions about our pregnant 16 year old? A yes or no will do.

Can her parents force her to have an abortion?
Can her parents force her to carry the child to term?
Can her parents force her to breastfeed?
Can her parents exercise her own parental authority on her behalf?
Can her parents put her child up for adoption?
Can her parents force her to have a hysterectomy?
Can her parents force her to donate a kidney?



I don't think calling you insane is calling you names if you really do support the positions you claim to support.

No, let's assume we're dealing with a 13 year-old who cannot consent to sex anywhere in the country and she wants to buy an abortion pill.  Better yet, let's assume we're dealing with a 9 or 10-year old who is pregnant and wants to buy an abortion pill.  

So someone calling you stupid is not calling you names if you really are stupid?  lol  

[Dos Equis]

thinking that a 13 year old doesn't need parental guidance in a situation involving an unwanted pregnancy is INSANE.  how you can't see that is ridiculous.  and you are obviously not a parent.

Pretty obvious. 

[avxo]

No

Aww, what's the matter? You don't want to answer questions that will show everyone just how out there your positions are? So you're going to take your ball and walk away and not play anymore? There there... I won't be mean to you anymore.

let's assume we're dealing with a 13 year-old who cannot consent to sex anywhere in the country and she wants to buy an abortion pill.

OK. Let's. What's an abortion pill? The "morning-after" pill isn't an abortion pill.

Better yet, let's assume we're dealing with a 9 or 10-year old who is pregnant and wants to buy an abortion pill.

OK. Let's assume that. Again, I'm still unsure what an "abortion pill" is. The "morning-after" pill isn't an abortion pill.

So someone calling you stupid is not calling you names if you really are stupid?  lol

Would you prefer the politically correct term for insane? You didn't strike me as the politically correct type, but that's fine.

But in all seriousness: there's a different between calling someone names blindly in an attempt to win an argument and calling someone something that accurately describes their actual behavior and position.

Pretty obvious.

Interesting... Let's assume for the sake of argument that you're right and I'm not a parent (I'm not conceding that). If I were, I wouldn't treat my child as a slave nor claim that my authority over her is absolute and she has no rights that she can choose to exercise independently of me.

[bears]

No, let's assume we're dealing with a 13 year-old who cannot consent to sex anywhere in the country and she wants to buy an abortion pill.  Better yet, let's assume we're dealing with a 9 or 10-year old who is pregnant and wants to buy an abortion pill.  

So someone calling you stupid is not calling you names if you really are stupid?  lol  

 i know his answer already.  it goes something like this

"fuck it give a 10 year old girl a overdose of progestin to prevent conception.  even though there is a chance of major health problems when a child ingests progestin under no circumstances are we to inform her parents.  we don't want her to get grounded."

[bears]

Interesting... Let's assume for the sake of argument that you're right and I'm not a parent (I'm not conceding that). If I were, I wouldn't treat my child as a slave nor claim that my authority over her is absolute and she has no rights that she can choose to exercise independently of me.
[/quote]


you're not a parent.  it's obvious

[avxo]

 i know his answer already.  it goes something like this

"fuck it give a 10 year old girl a overdose of progestin to prevent conception.  even though there is a chance of major health problems when a child ingests progestin under no circumstances are we to inform her parents.  we don't want her to get grounded."

Egads! You know me so well!

Or maybe not...

As I said, if you want to attack my position then do so. Attacking some straw man, onto which you hang a label that says "avxo's position" seems silly to me, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

you're not a parent.  it's obvious

You know... I have a degree in mathematics. I hear "it's obvious" a lot when people try to prove stuff. And you know what? Everytime I've heard someone say "it's obvious"... well, it turns out that things weren't quite so obvious.

[Dos Equis]

Aww, what's the matter? You don't want to answer questions that will show everyone just how out there your positions are? So you're going to take your ball and walk away and not play anymore? There there... I won't be mean to you anymore.


OK. Let's. What's an abortion pill? The "morning-after" pill isn't an abortion pill.


OK. Let's assume that. Again, I'm still unsure what an "abortion pill" is. The "morning-after" pill isn't an abortion pill.


Would you prefer the politically correct term for insane? You didn't strike me as the politically correct type, but that's fine.

But in all seriousness: there's a different between calling someone names blindly in an attempt to win an argument and calling someone something that accurately describes their actual behavior and position.


Interesting... Let's assume for the sake of argument that you're right and I'm not a parent (I'm not conceding that). If I were, I wouldn't treat my child as a slave nor claim that my authority over her is absolute and she has no rights that she can choose to exercise independently of me.

Oh yes, you got me.  Overwhelmed by your powerful intellect.  

I don't care about what labels you want to use.  Doesn't matter to me one bit.  Was just pointing out the hypocrisy.  

I'm assuming you're not a parent.  It's pretty obvious.  

[Dos Equis]

 i know his answer already.  it goes something like this

"fuck it give a 10 year old girl a overdose of progestin to prevent conception.  even though there is a chance of major health problems when a child ingests progestin under no circumstances are we to inform her parents.  we don't want her to get grounded."

And a 10 year old is perfectly capable of making that kind of decision on her own.  Don't want them being slaves and all.   

[avxo]

Oh yes, you got me.  Overwhelmed by your powerful intellect.  

It's got nothing to do with "powerful intellects". I find it pretty ironic that you refuse to answer questions when you feel that those questions will back you against a corner. The honest approach would be to say something "Well, I hadn't thought of that, and maybe my proposal doesn't cover all the bases, but I think that my position still serves as a good starting point." Or even "I don't think this is a practical concern."

I don't care about what labels you want to use.  Doesn't matter to me one bit.  Was just pointing out the hypocrisy.  

Is it hypocritical to call someone who espouses racist positions a racist? If not, they why is it hypocritical to call someone who espouses crazy and extreme positions crazy and an extremist?

And a 10 year old is perfectly capable of making that kind of decision on her own.  Don't want them being slaves and all.

Feel free to join in his little game - I'm not sure what attacking some imaginary position gets you, except ridicule from everyone here.

[Dos Equis]

It's got nothing to do with "powerful intellects". I find it pretty ironic that you refuse to answer questions when you feel that those questions will back you against a corner. The honest approach would be to say something "Well, I hadn't thought of that, and maybe my proposal doesn't cover all the bases, but I think that my position still serves as a good starting point." Or even "I don't think this is a practical concern."


Is it hypocritical to call someone who espouses racist positions a racist? If not, they why is it hypocritical to call someone who espouses crazy and extreme positions crazy and an extremist?


Feel free to join in his little game - I'm not sure what attacking some imaginary position gets you, except ridicule from everyone here.

That's the beauty of the internet.  Ask any question you want.  Answer what you want.  Ignore what you want.   

We are all very concerned about being ridiculed too.  The internets is serious business.