Federal judge rules morning-after pill must be available for women of all ages

[Archer77]

She was mature enough for fucking thought.

:/

That's the argument her creepy uncle tried to make in court.  The old grass on the field defense didnt convince the jury.

[tu_holmes]

That's the argument her creepy uncle tried to make in court.  The old grass on the field defense didnt convince the jury.

All I'm saying is that she has the mental forethought to think she is old enough to have sex... so naturally, she believes she can control her body and what goes in it.

Why do you have to take it to a sad place?

[Archer77]

All I'm saying is that she has the mental forethought to think she is old enough to have sex... so naturally, she believes she can control her body and what goes in it.

Why do you have to take it to a sad place?

I was giving an example of a situation where a child is coerced or forced to engage in sexual activity.  Where the choice was not her own and where the person engaging in sex with a child was an adult which is an absolute crime.

[tu_holmes]

I was giving an example of a situation where a child is coerced or forced to engage in sexual activity.  Where the choice was not her own and where the person engaging in sex with a child was an adult which is an absolute crime.

In that situation, the creepy ass uncle would go get the pill for her anyway.

This is about people doing things on their own... That's the point.

While I do understand that parents do want to know everything that their children are doing, but it's just not feasible... Children go off and do what they want.

No parent can be all over their kids 24/7. I'm not saying not to try, but if a girl is out having sex at 12 or 13 (and yes, it does happen) then what's your priorities? Knowing their every move or protecting their future?

[24KT]

I was giving an example of a situation where a child is coerced or forced to engage in sexual activity.  Where the choice was not her own and where the person engaging in sex with a child was an adult which is an absolute crime.

So what you're saying is that in the instance where a child is raped by an adult, ...she should NOT have access to a morning after pill? Seems to me one choice has already been taken from her, ...and you want to take another one away from her as well?

I don't believe it's appropriate for minors to be engaging in sex. I don't believe it's even appropriate for some adults to be engaging in sex either, ...but I don't have the right to make their decisions for them.

In my opinion, if someone is capable of conceiving a child, they should have access to appropriate forms of contraception if they desire it. Having some degree of control over your own body is imo fundamental to freedom.

[avxo]

In my opinion, if someone is capable of conceiving a child, they should have access to appropriate forms of contraception if they desire it. Having some degree of control over your own body is imo fundamental to freedom.

Wow... did I just cross over into some weird-ass parallel universe? I find myself agreeing with 24KT!

[drkaje]

Wow... did I just cross over into some weird-ass parallel universe? I find myself agreeing with 24KT!

It's either a moment of lucidity or insanity.

You decide.

[Archer77]

So what you're saying is that in the instance where a child is raped by an adult, ...she should NOT have access to a morning after pill? Seems to me one choice has already been taken from her, ...and you want to take another one away from her as well?

I don't believe it's appropriate for minors to be engaging in sex. I don't believe it's even appropriate for some adults to be engaging in sex either, ...but I don't have the right to make their decisions for them.

In my opinion, if someone is capable of conceiving a child, they should have access to appropriate forms of contraception if they desire it. Having some degree of control over your own body is imo fundamental to freedom.

As a parent I want to be made aware of any serious medical condition my underaged child is experiencing.  A nine year old is capable of having a child and I don't think they are capable of making life decision as serious as this one.  The ability to engage in sexual activity or have a child are not in the least representative of maturity or intelligence.  

You do make choices for your children because they are immature.  If you didn't they would be eating ice cream at every meal, staying up all night and wouldn't go to school or do their homework. It's not about control, it's about guidance.  

[Archer77]

In that situation, the creepy ass uncle would go get the pill for her anyway.

This is about people doing things on their own... That's the point.

While I do understand that parents do want to know everything that their children are doing, but it's just not feasible... Children go off and do what they want.

No parent can be all over their kids 24/7. I'm not saying not to try, but if a girl is out having sex at 12 or 13 (and yes, it does happen) then what's your priorities? Knowing their every move or protecting their future?

This may be practically true but I don't see this as a reason to just let anything happen.  Your logic is flawed.  You can apply your argument to anything that is regulated or for which a law is passed to prevent.

You're also presenting an either or argument in which the only two options are to know your childes every move or protect your future.  This line of reasoning is much to limited for the subject.  There are other options and considerations and the issue is not so black and white.

People assume I want all underage kids to be forced to have children they dont want or cant support.  This is untrue. My argument is that the age minimum for purchase over the counter should be the age of consent in a state.

[tu_holmes]

This may be practically true but I don't see this as a reason to just let anything happen.  Your logic is flawed.  You can apply your argument to anything that is regulated or for which a law is passed to prevent.

You're also presenting an either or argument in which the only two options are to know your childes every move or protect your future.  This line of reasoning is much to limited for the subject.  There are other options and considerations and the issue is not so black and white.

But your response is black and white... You are saying 13 year olds simply should not have access to it. That's a very black and white statement also.

[Archer77]

But your response is black and white... You are saying 13 year olds simply should not have access to it. That's a very black and white statement also.

From the beginning I said that a thirteen year old child should not be able to purchase over the counter without the consultation of a parent and medical professional.  I've never said that there should be no access, never once.

[24KT]

As a parent I want to be made aware of any serious medical condition my underaged child is experiencing.  A nine year old is capable of having a child and I don't think they are capable of making life decision as serious as this one.  The ability to engage in sexual activity or have a child are not in the least representative of maturity or intelligence.  

You do make choices for your children because they are immature.  If you didn't they would be eating ice cream at every meal, staying up all night and wouldn't go to school or do their homework. It's not about control, it's about guidance.  

So tell me Archer, ...if your NINE yr old for whatever reason has unprotected sex during ovulation, ...are you saying you would prefer she NOT be able to access a morning after pill, ...and be required to forego the window of opportunity to prevent conception, in order for YOU to be notified, so you can decide whether she has an abortion or carries to term? is that what you're saying?

[bears]

But your response is black and white... You are saying 13 year olds simply should not have access to it. That's a very black and white statement also.

i think they should have access to it with parental consent.

[tu_holmes]

From the beginning I said that a thirteen year old child should not be able to purchase over the counter without the consultation of a parent and medical professional.  I've never said that there should be no access, never once.

I understand, my point is that if a child is sneaking around and having sex, they will not go to their parents after doing so and ask for a morning after pill.

Instead, they will end up finding out they are pregnant and being forced to have a child or get an abortion... The MAP is a much better alternative to either of those.


Yes, the fact it's a drug does weigh on my mind... It's a tough decision, but in this instance, I personally would go with the get them the pill over having a child.

[bears]

So tell me Archer, ...if your NINE yr old for whatever reason has unprotected sex during ovulation, ...are you saying you would prefer she NOT be able to access a morning after pill, ...and be required to forego the window of opportunity to prevent conception, in order for YOU to be notified, so you can decide whether she has an abortion or carries to term? is that what you're saying?

are you saying that you want your 9 year olds teacher to be able to have unprotected sex with her and have the resources to "take care of it" discreetly without her parents knowledge?  i see both sides to this. neither side has it figured out.  if you think you do you're a stupid person.  period.

[24KT]

People assume I want all underage kids to be forced to have children they dont want or cant support.  This is untrue. My argument is that the age minimum for purchase over the counter should be the age of consent in a state.

Welcome to the birth of a whole new industry. <pun intended>

The unregulated illicit 'morning after" pill trade.  I can see it now... 16 yr olds forking over their college funds to buy an aspirin from some street corner dealer thinking they're buying a morning after pill.

[Archer77]

So tell me Archer, ...if your NINE yr old for whatever reason has unprotected sex during ovulation, ...are you saying you would prefer she NOT be able to access a morning after pill, ...and be required to forego the window of opportunity to prevent conception, in order for YOU to be notified, so you can decide whether she has an abortion or carries to term? is that what you're saying?

How much time passes between the time she finds out and she tells me....seconds. The time is minuscule and irrelevant. What I want is a discussion.  I want to talk to her about what has happened, what her feelings are on the situation and the options that are available to her.  As a parent this is part of my job and the responsibility I assumed.  You're reacting emotionally and projecting your own feelings and false intentions onto me.  

[avxo]

People assume I want all underage kids to be forced to have children they dont want or cant support.  This is untrue. My argument is that the age minimum for purchase over the counter should be the age of consent in a state.

That's a more defensible position, to be sure, but I still don't know that it makes sense. Let's turn things around slightly and look at something else in the hopes of gaining some clarity. Let's assume that we are in a State where the age of consent is 16. Let's further assume that you work at a pharmacy (or grocery store). During the overnight shift, a young kid comes up to you and nervously asks for a pack of condoms. What now?

My position is that the kid should be able to get the condoms, no questions asked. What do you think?

And, by the way, I completely agree with you that children are immature and parents must make some decisions for them (ideally with some input from the child, especially as the child gets older). Ideally, a child should feel comfortable enough to discuss with his or her parents the issue of sex before he or she engages in it and to then make informed and responsible decisions. But let's be realistic - that's the exception and not the norm. We've all been kids, and we all know how quickly things can escalate from "First Base!!!" to "Uhmm... what do you mean you're pregnant?!?!"

[Archer77]

I understand, my point is that if a child is sneaking around and having sex, they will not go to their parents after doing so and ask for a morning after pill.

Instead, they will end up finding out they are pregnant and being forced to have a child or get an abortion... The MAP is a much better alternative to either of those.


Yes, the fact it's a drug does weigh on my mind... It's a tough decision, but in this instance, I personally would go with the get them the pill over having a child.

True and I recognize that.  Personally, I would be inclined to get them the pill as well also.

[24KT]

are you saying that you want your 9 year olds teacher to be able to have unprotected sex with her and have the resources to "take care of it" discreetly without her parents knowledge?  i see both sides to this. neither side has it figured out.  if you think you do you're a stupid person.  period.

No that's not what I'm saying at all. And parental consent laws would do nothing to prevent the above scenario. If a pedophile teacher were having sex with his 9 yr old students, he could STILL make a MAP available to the 9 yr old even with parental consent laws in place.

There are laws against marijuana, heroin, crystal meth, crack etc.... yet those are still available are they not?

I think your argument is rubbish. make it illegal... yah, ...that'll stop it.  

[bears]

How much time passes between the time she finds out and she tells me....seconds. The time is minuscule and irrelevant. What I want is a discussion.  I want to talk to her about what has happened, what her feelings are on the situation and the options that are available to her.  As a parent this is part of my job and the responsibility I assumed.  You're reacting emotionally and projecting your own feelings and false intentions onto me.  

well said

[Archer77]

That's a more defensible position, to be sure, but I still don't know that it makes sense. Let's turn things around slightly and look at something else in the hopes of gaining some clarity. Let's assume that we are in a State where the age of consent is 16. Let's further assume that you work at a pharmacy (or grocery store). During the overnight shift, a young kid comes up to you and nervously asks for a pack of condoms. What now?

My position is that the kid should be able to get the condoms, no questions asked. What do you think?

I would let them purchase the condoms no questions asked.  The main difference being condoms are not medicine that is ingested with potential side effects to anyone other than those with a latex allergy.  My point isn't even a moral one necessarily ot an objection to the use of the morning after pill itself.

[24KT]

How much time passes between the time she finds out and she tells me....seconds. The time is minuscule and irrelevant. What I want is a discussion.  I want to talk to her about what has happened, what her feelings are on the situation and the options that are available to her.  As a parent this is part of my job and the responsibility I assumed.  You're reacting emotionally and projecting your own feelings and false intentions onto me.  

From the time she finds out, and the time she tells you is seconds?  YOU ARE DREAMING!

I understand what you want, and why you want it, ...but legislation isn't going to make that happen.

[bears]

No that's not what I'm saying at all. And parental consent laws would do nothing to prevent the above scenario. If a pedophile teacher were having sex with his 9 yr old students, he could STILL make a MAP available to the 9 yr old even with parental consent laws in place.

There are laws against marijuana, heroin, crystal meth, crack etc.... yet those are still available are they not?

I think your argument is rubbish. make it illegal... yah, ...that'll stop it.  

and making an abortion pill readily accessible WITHOUT PARENTAL CONSENT is just giving a child abuser extra resources at his disposal to better hide his crime.

[tu_holmes]

and making an abortion pill readily accessible WITHOUT PARENTAL CONSENT is just giving a child abuser extra resources at his disposal to better hide his crime.

It's NOT an abortion pill.