Federal judge rules morning-after pill must be available for women of all ages

[bears]

the point i'm trying to make is that it seems that anytime someone speaks out against anything concerning abortion they are the ones being accused of being "holier than thou" and "judgmental".  just because someone doesn't agree with letting a child take a MAP doesn't mean they;re trying to "control the child's body" or "enslave them".

like i said before.  i see both sides of the argument.  neither side has this thing figured out.   

i will say this though.  that once science advances past a certain point in human genome research abortion will start getting real ugly real fast.  and it could ultimately create huge problems for humanity.  we're getting a taste of it right now in India.  boys are being born at a much higher rate than the girls because the families abort most of the girls.  it is creating a huge population problem and severely affecting the treatment of women.  so now ironically we have American feminist groups going there and trying to reduce the abortion of girls.  so back here in the US their "keep your laws off my body" signs are put in a closet before they fly off to india to try and place laws on people's bodies.  i do think what they're doing is right but find it disturbing how they don't see the disconnect.  i mean this is what they asked for.  trust me this issue is only going to become more complicated.  it's not getting any better.   

[Straw Man]

the point i'm trying to make is that it seems that anytime someone speaks out against anything concerning abortion they are the ones being accused of being "holier than thou" and "judgmental".  just because someone doesn't agree with letting a child take a MAP doesn't mean they;re trying to "control the child's body" or "enslave them".

like i said before.  i see both sides of the argument.  neither side has this thing figured out.   

i will say this though.  that once science advances past a certain point in human genome research abortion will start getting real ugly real fast.  and it could ultimately create huge problems for humanity.  we're getting a taste of it right now in India.  boys are being born at a much higher rate than the girls because the families abort most of the girls.  it is creating a huge population problem and severely affecting the treatment of women.  so now ironically we have American feminist groups going there and trying to reduce the abortion of girls.  so back here in the US their "keep your laws off my body" signs are put in a closet before they fly off to india to try and place laws on people's bodies.  i do think what they're doing is right but find it disturbing how they don't see the disconnect.  i mean this is what they asked for.  trust me this issue is only going to become more complicated.  it's not getting any better.   

no offense but I don't trust your judgement regarding the dubious conclusions in your post nor the predictions for the future

[bears]

no offense but I don't trust your judgement regarding the dubious conclusions in your post nor the predictions for the future

no offense but if you don't see where this is going i seriously doubt your intelligence.  and whats happening in India is NOT the future.  it's happening right now.  but you choose to ignore it because you've already closed your mind and chosen up sides.  any real problems abortion might cause you have already chosen to ignore.  you don't want to hear it. 

[Straw Man]

no offense but if you don't see where this is going i seriously doubt your intelligence.  and whats happening in India is NOT the future.  it's happening right now.  but you choose to ignore it because you've already closed your mind and chosen up sides.  any real problems abortion might cause you have already chosen to ignore.  you don't want to hear it. 

yeah because our cultures are so similar and women were treated so wonderfully there until just recently when they were able to determine the sex of the unborn child and had access to abortion

[24KT]

Yet, Just recently you still did any way.

I love how hypocritical you can be. 

Like how you condescendly pointed out how the government lies to us then at the same time posted an article trying spin it as a "no fly zone" over America. 

I didn't "spin" anything. I posted an attention grabbing headline, and posted the video clip.
What was untruthful about the attention grabbing headline? Is Arkansas no longer a part of the USA?

You are a piece of work girl, I still like ya anyway, I am not one of your "haters" 

I am an amazing piece of work, ...and of course you do because I'm just so incredibly loveable. Yes I am. 

[bears]

yeah because our cultures are so similar and women were treated so wonderfully there until just recently when they were able to determine the sex of the unborn child and had access to abortion

right you'll tout the positive effects of abortion (less children growing up in poverty, less crime, etc) but the possible negative effects you patently dismiss.  you don't want to hear it.  thats just willful ignorance dude.  wake the fuck up. 

[Straw Man]

right you'll tout the positive effects of abortion (less children growing up in poverty, less crime, etc) but the possible negative effects you patently dismiss.  you don't want to hear it.  thats just willful ignorance dude.  wake the fuck up.  

I've actually never touted any positive effects of abortion on this thread but probably have in others but that has nothing to do with why I dismiss your claims.  

I dismiss them because they are ridiculous.  While I don't deny that female fetuses are aborted a greater rate in India it's due to specific cultural tendencies that simply don't exist in this country and never will.  

Furthermore, it's not like access to abortion created this cultural tendency.  It precedes the advent of widespread access to abortion

Why is there such deadly discrimination against girls? Part of the answer is money. Girls are a financial burden to their parents, who must pay expensive dowries to marry them off. The dowry is a cultural tradition and the single biggest reason Indians prefer boys.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/women-pregnant-girls-pressured-abortions-india/story?id=15103950#.UWTD2pPvtro

When it becomes the cultural norm in this country for families to pay expensive dowries to marry off their female offspring and they start aborting the female fetuses then get back in touch with me.  

Until then, I'm not losing any sleep over it.   If you want to get panicked about it then go right ahead

[OzmO]

I didn't "spin" anything. I posted an attention grabbing headline, and posted the video clip.
What was untruthful about the attention grabbing headline? Is Arkansas no longer a part of the USA?

I am an amazing piece of work, ...and of course you do because I'm just so incredibly loveable. Yes I am.  

No what you posted was spin.  Purposely spun for retards.

Should we say now that there is a no fly zone over earth?  How about over the solor system? The milky way?

Additionally it wasn't what is classically accepted as a no fly zone.


A no-fly zone (or no-flight zone) is a territory or an area over which aircraft are not permitted to fly. Such zones are usually set up in a military context, somewhat like a demilitarized zone in the sky, and usually prohibit military aircraft of a belligerent nation from operating in the region.
  ( per wiki)

Again you complian that our government lies yet you fall prey to any old stupid lie by anyone.

Between you, Jack or Ahmed, I don't know who is the worse at making a legit argument.

[avxo]

why are they bad parents?  they don't own her.  she's not their slave.  its her body.  she can do what she wants with it.

If that's the case, shouldn't the decision to take or not take the morning-after pill be hers? After all, it is, as you so aptly put it, "her body and she can do what she wants with it." Right?

[I am being somewhat facetious here - obviously I don't believe that this hypothetical 13-year old we're arguing about should have absolute authority to really do what she wants, although I don't believe that her parents have absolute authority to do what they want either.]

[bears]

I've actually never touted any positive effects of abortion on this thread but probably have in others but that has nothing to do with why I dismiss your claims.  

I dismiss them because they are ridiculous.  While I don't deny that female fetuses are aborted a greater rate in India it's due to specific cultural tendencies that simply don't exist in this country and never will.  

Furthermore, it's not like access to abortion created this cultural tendency.  It precedes the advent of widespread access to abortion
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/women-pregnant-girls-pressured-abortions-india/story?id=15103950#.UWTD2pPvtro

When it becomes the cultural norm in this country for families to pay expensive dowries to marry off their female offspring and they start aborting the female fetuses then get back in touch with me.  

Until then, I'm not losing any sleep over it.   If you want to get panicked about it then go right ahead

your small minded thinking only allows you to contemplate the specific situation in India as a potential problem in the US.  Don't you think there are other negative effects that may evince themselves in the future?  specific to the US?  I use India as an EXAMPLE of how abortion can pose a problem.  there are other problems that may or may not occur.  and these need to be addressed BEFORE they happen.  sure the US won't have a problem with aborting girls.  so thats it for you huh?  you KNOW there couldn't possibly be any other potential problems?  seriously, you're an idiot.  you can't even admit the possibility of a potential negative effect of abortion because of your loyalty to your ideology.   it's very simple.  i'm thinking past the tip of my own nose, you're trying to win an argument because you defend to the death anything ABORTION. 

[bears]

If that's the case, shouldn't the decision to take or not take the morning-after pill be hers? After all, it is, as you so aptly put it, "her body and she can do what she wants with it." Right?

[I am being somewhat facetious here - obviously I don't believe that this hypothetical 13-year old we're arguing about should have absolute authority to really do what she wants, although I don't believe that her parents have absolute authority to do what they want either.]

to be perfectly honest its hard to disagree with you on this one.  this is a tough one.  a 13 year old pregnant girl is never a good situation.  but all i know is that as a parent, i don't want my CHILD to be able to be given an overdose of progestin without my consent.  I want to be the one who takes care of my kid.  i want to be PART of the decision.  for the government to step in and say that I don't deserve to be part of that decision is unfair.  THERE ARE RISKS.  getting pregnant as a 13 year old is bad enough.  now the government wants to help these 13 year olds hide these pregnancies from their parents.  thats really all this is about.  and i am not sold on the fact that its a good idea.

[Straw Man]

your small minded thinking only allows you to contemplate the specific situation in India as a potential problem in the US.  Don't you think there are other negative effects that may evince themselves in the future?  specific to the US?  I use India as an EXAMPLE of how abortion can pose a problem.  there are other problems that may or may not occur.  and these need to be addressed BEFORE they happen.  sure the US won't have a problem with aborting girls.  so thats it for you huh?  you KNOW there couldn't possibly be any other potential problems?  seriously, you're an idiot.  you can't even admit the possibility of a potential negative effect of abortion because of your loyalty to your ideology.   it's very simple.  i'm thinking past the tip of my own nose, you're trying to win an argument because you defend to the death anything ABORTION. 

yes, you used India an example and I pointed out that the treatment of woman in India wasn't caused by abortion (read the article I posted - girls are also just abandoned and murdered along with being aborted).   

those specific cultural problems are not going to happen here so your entire premise is false it two ways (not caused by access to abortion and never going to happen here)

If you want to choose to ignore these facts then go right ahead but don't expect me to do the same thing

[bears]

yes, you used India an example and I pointed out that the treatment of woman in India wasn't caused by abortion (read the article I posted - girls are also just abandoned and murdered along with being aborted).   

those specific cultural problems are not going to happen here so your entire premise is false it two ways (not caused by access to abortion and never going to happen here)

If you want to choose to ignore these facts then go right ahead but don't expect me to do the same thing

like i said,  small minded thinker. 

[Straw Man]

like i said,  small minded thinker. 

like I said, you imagined a problem (Indians were killing off female children before abortion existed) and then insist I take your imaginary problem seriously and worry that the same imaginary problem will somehow happen here

I see no reason to believe that American are going to suddenly start aborting female fetuses

If you want to believe that's going to happen then feel free

[bears]

like I said, you imagined a problem (Indians were killing off female children before abortion existed) and then insist I take your imaginary problem seriously and worry that the same imaginary problem will somehow happen here

I see no reason to believe that American are going to suddenly start aborting female fetuses

If you want to believe that's going to happen then feel free

i believe that there's a POTENTIAL for the irresponsible utilization of abortion in the US.  what it will be?  i don't know. 

but do you think back in the 1930's people thought that court cases where we would have to make decisions on who has the rights to a child born by a surrogate mother?  by a child born from a sperm donor?  no.  back then anyone who saw that the advancement of science would create these issues would have been shot down by you as well.  because you wouldn't have been able to process the implications that science would have on parental rights 80 years in the future.  thats why we have what is called the study of bioethics.  the study of bioethics exists because these people know that people like you do not think about the ramifications that advances in biology and medicine have on a populace. 

i'm only bringing to everyone's attention that we will face more complex issues in the future.  and you shit a brick.  because you have been trained by tv to defend everything abortion.  like i said.  small minded.

[avxo]

to be perfectly honest its hard to disagree with you on this one.  this is a tough one.  a 13 year old pregnant girl is never a good situation.  but all i know is that as a parent, i don't want my CHILD to be able to be given an overdose of progestin without my consent.  I want to be the one who takes care of my kid.  i want to be PART of the decision.  for the government to step in and say that I don't deserve to be part of that decision is unfair.  THERE ARE RISKS.  getting pregnant as a 13 year old is bad enough.  now the government wants to help these 13 year olds hide these pregnancies from their parents.  thats really all this is about.  and i am not sold on the fact that its a good idea.

I understand and agree - it is tough. It may surprise you to know that I actually agree with you generally, even if we might disagree about some specifics. As a parent, I too would want to be informed and involved and be a part of the decision, because that's what parents are supposed to do.

My positions are:

• Make the pill available over the counter;
• Require pharmacists to either dispense it or have someone else dispense it if they have personal objections;
• Make it available without parental notification if the person asking is over the age of consent.

My other point (which angered some of you) was that, faced with a pregnant teen, the scope of a parent's authority becomes a little muddier. These are difficult issues...

Ask yourself, seriously and dispassionately: can a parent decide, on behalf of his or her pregnant minor daughter, to continue an unwanted pregnancy? Can that parent force the minor to subsequently care for the infant (e.g. by requiring that she breast feed the infant)? Can the parent put the newborn infant up for adoption, without the Mother's consent? Remember, the teen is now a parent herself - so the very authority you are arguing allows the parent to do that is the authority that the teen now possesses.

It's unlikely that we can codify every possible situation in the law, but these are questions that inform us on how we want to structure the law and what the intent behind it should be. My position is that a minor is still an independent human being with rights and that she has a real interest in the decisions made on her behalf by her parents. As such, she should at least have a voice in those decisions and sometimes that voice should be heard loudly and respected.

[bears]

I understand and agree - it is tough. It may surprise you to know that I actually agree with you generally, even if we might disagree about some specifics. As a parent, I too would want to be informed and involved and be a part of the decision, because that's what parents are supposed to do.

My positions are:

• Make the pill available over the counter;
• Require pharmacists to either dispense it or have someone else dispense it if they have personal objections;
• Make it available without parental notification if the person asking is over the age of consent.

My other point (which angered some of you) was that, faced with a pregnant teen, the scope of a parent's authority becomes a little muddier. These are difficult issues...

Ask yourself, seriously and dispassionately: can a parent decide, on behalf of his or her pregnant minor daughter, to continue an unwanted pregnancy? Can that parent force the minor to subsequently care for the infant (e.g. by requiring that she breast feed the infant)? Can the parent put the newborn infant up for adoption, without the Mother's consent? Remember, the teen is now a parent herself - so the very authority you are arguing allows the parent to do that is the authority that the teen now possesses.

It's unlikely that we can codify every possible situation in the law, but these are questions that inform us on how we want to structure the law and what the intent behind it should be. My position is that a minor is still an independent human being with rights and that she has a real interest in the decisions made on her behalf by her parents. As such, she should at least have a voice in those decisions and sometimes that voice should be heard loudly and respected.

well said.  unfortunately it seems like people like yourself, who understand that there are downsides as well as upsides to things like this are fewer and far between every day.  it seems like the gut reaction to every story like this is to quickly defer to one of the two the generic ideologies presented to us on television as opposed to taking the time to think about what you actually believe is right and just.   thats the power of mass media.  dumbing down and making zombies out of all of us.   

[Archer77]

Parents are granted the right to decide for their children in issue of a medical nature.  The assumption being that an adult has a better grasp on complex issues than a child.  As I said from the beginning, it's perfectly reasonable under the law to allow a teen who is of the age of consent to purchase the morning after pill.

As a parent, I can't imagine how I would react to finding out my thirteen year old daughter is pregnant.  Would I force her to keep the child or abort?  Personally I think I wouldn't, and there is definitely a gray area in terms of what comes next.  What I do know is that I should be notified so that I can help my child deal with the situation on an emotionally level. I also do not feel comfortable with allowing a child access to medication with out the supervision of a competent adult and/or medical professional. 

[24KT]

No what you posted was spin.  Purposely spun for retards.

Should we say now that there is a no fly zone over earth?  How about over the solor system? The milky way?

Additionally it wasn't what is classically accepted as a no fly zone.


A no-fly zone (or no-flight zone) is a territory or an area over which aircraft are not permitted to fly. Such zones are usually set up in a military context, somewhat like a demilitarized zone in the sky, and usually prohibit military aircraft of a belligerent nation from operating in the region.
  ( per wiki)

Again you complian that our government lies yet you fall prey to any old stupid lie by anyone.

Between you, Jack or Ahmed, I don't know who is the worse at making a legit argument.

Was there or was there not a no-fly zone imposed over the area of the oil spill, ...which was located in the USA?

[24KT]

I understand and agree - it is tough. It may surprise you to know that I actually agree with you generally, even if we might disagree about some specifics. As a parent, I too would want to be informed and involved and be a part of the decision, because that's what parents are supposed to do.

My positions are:

• Make the pill available over the counter;
• Require pharmacists to either dispense it or have someone else dispense it if they have personal objections;
• Make it available without parental notification if the person asking is over the age of consent.

My other point (which angered some of you) was that, faced with a pregnant teen, the scope of a parent's authority becomes a little muddier. These are difficult issues...

Ask yourself, seriously and dispassionately: can a parent decide, on behalf of his or her pregnant minor daughter, to continue an unwanted pregnancy? Can that parent force the minor to subsequently care for the infant (e.g. by requiring that she breast feed the infant)? Can the parent put the newborn infant up for adoption, without the Mother's consent? Remember, the teen is now a parent herself - so the very authority you are arguing allows the parent to do that is the authority that the teen now possesses.

It's unlikely that we can codify every possible situation in the law, but these are questions that inform us on how we want to structure the law and what the intent behind it should be. My position is that a minor is still an independent human being with rights and that she has a real interest in the decisions made on her behalf by her parents. As such, she should at least have a voice in those decisions and sometimes that voice should be heard loudly and respected.

Dang!!! We really are in a parallel universe. 

[24KT]

Parents are granted the right to decide for their children in issue of a medical nature.  The assumption being that an adult has a better grasp on complex issues than a child.  As I said from the beginning, it's perfectly reasonable under the law to allow a teen who is of the age of consent to purchase the morning after pill.

As a parent, I can't imagine how I would react to finding out my thirteen year old daughter is pregnant.  Would I force her to keep the child or abort?  Personally I think I wouldn't, and there is definitely a gray area in terms of what comes next.  What I do know is that I should be notified so that I can help my child deal with the situation on an emotionally level. I also do not feel comfortable with allowing a child access to medication with out the supervision of a competent adult and/or medical professional. 

What's to deal with on an emotional level? She's not having an abortion... she's preventing conception.

Are you Catholic or something?  I think even Pope John Paul II came out in favour of contraception.

[OzmO]

Was there or was there not a no-fly zone imposed over the area of the oil spill, ...which was located in the USA?

Did it meet the definition?

I'll answer for you.  "NO"

Its called a "temporary flight restriction." over the area of the spill.   Not uncommon.


But to "Hater's of America" and the Alex Jones Retard Cult, its a "No fly Zone over America"

[24KT]

No what you posted was spin.  Purposely spun for retards.

....

Between you, Jack or Ahmed, I don't know who is the worse at making a legit argument.

How's this for straight talk...  Stop being a useless dick by attempting to subvert the thread off topic in order to attack a poster. 

[Archer77]

What's to deal with on an emotional level? She's not having an abortion... she's preventing conception.

Are you Catholic or something?  I think even Pope John Paul II came out in favour of contraception.

It's medical treatment.  I'm an atheist.  Are you seriously asking what a pregnant 13 year old would have to deal with emotionally?  How about a kid getting pregnant and having to make serious adult choices about her life.  You don't have kids.  Cats don't count

[Archer77]

How's this for straight talk...  Stop being a useless dick by attempting to subvert the thread off topic in order to attack a poster. 

Funny, you not only attack him but you also started throwing out accusations against me to divert the conversation.  You don't get this whole exchange of ideas thing.