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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Pet Board => Topic started by: MindSpin on December 20, 2007, 10:57:15 AM
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So I settled on a Tibetan Terrier. We've had her three days. She's adorable. BUT...she has been howling up a storm for three solid nights. I'm talking major howling, barking, growling and all sorts of insanely loud noises. We're trying to crate train her. The 1st night we tried the crate in our room. Halfway through the night I couldn't take it anymore so I put her downstairs in the 2nd floor...still too freaking loud. The last two nights we've had her all the way down in the 1st floor. We're on the 3rd and still tooooo loud! She sounds like a caged animal going ape shit for the ENTIRE night.
WTF do I do? Tried the ticking alarm clock, music, chew toys, etc. I'm thinking about grinding up some Ambien in her food!!!
Thoughts? Tips??? Help!!!
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Thanks :) I think I'll try and tire her out tonight. Then I'LL take 2 ambiens & crank up my ipod. I need my freaking sleep!!!
hehe! Yes, YOU taking the drugs is a better idea! And this won't go on forever. She'll get to where she loves her crate (usually). What's her name?
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hehe! Yes, YOU taking the drugs is a better idea! And this won't go on forever. She'll get to where she loves her crate (usually). What's her name?
I was kidding about he Ambien :P
We went with a Tibetan name: Diki. It means Healthy & Wealthy :D
So am I now a legit member of the Pet Board??
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I was kidding about he Ambien :P
Good! I emailed this thread to Flower w/the subject line: "Please help Mindspin before he drugs his new puppy" ;D
We went with a Tibetan name: Diki. It means Healthy & Wealthy :D
Cute name! Is it pronounced Dee-kee? Or Die-Kee or.....?
So am I now a legit member of the Pet Board??
Yes. Now you can hold your head up high ;D
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you can also try a pet fence, and put it in the room with you. the key being that the terrier will not be alone, but with you guys. my brother put up a pet fence in his room with him and his wife when they first got their mimi pincher. he felt that the fence would allow the pup to feel like it was still apart of a pack or family.
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STella I think you gave a fine answer and Atheist too! :)
Another alternative is another dog. ::)
LOL!! When I got Emmett I already had Briona and I had Emmett babygated in the hallway by the kitchen and he cried and cried, I let him in with Bri and he shut right up. He was paper trained from day one so he could be left in a big area with no problems.
Very Cute Mindspin - your daughters and the pup! :D
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you can also try a pet fence, and put it in the room with you. the key being that the terrier will not be alone, but with you guys. my brother put up a pet fence in his room with him and his wife when they first got their mimi pincher. he felt that the fence would allow the pup to feel like it was still apart of a pack or family.
Yesterday I got one HUGE crate that she will now be sleeping in and a 4 1/2 foot tall "pet fence". She's only 2 moths old, and managed to climb the pet fence with ease.
Thanks Flower. I almost brought home one of her little brothers but wasn't sure. In retrospect, I should have. The whole littler is gne now.
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Another thing with crate training is don't take them out when they are crying or barking. Wait until they are quiet, otherwise they may associate "I bark and I get let out" and keep it up.
She will probably quiet down soon, but it can be nerve wracking ::).
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Good! I emailed this thread to Flower w/the subject line: "Please help Mindspin before he drugs his new puppy" ;D
Cute name! Is it pronounced Dee-kee? Or Die-Kee or.....?
Yes. Now you can hold your head up high ;D
LOL. But seriously, what's a good dog sedative? j/k.
pronounced dee kee...
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Another thing with crate training is don't take them out when they are crying or barking. Wait until they are quiet, otherwise they may associate "I bark and I get let out" and keep it up.
She will probably quiet down soon, but it can be nerve wracking ::).
Oh...I'm definitely not giving in. For three solid nights, I have left her in the crate in spite of my girls pleading that we let her upstairs.
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Thanks Flower. I almost brought home one of her little brothers but wasn't sure. In retrospect, I should have. The whole littler is gne now.
But with 2 puppies you have 2 to potty train, 2 that are teething, 2 that are getting into everything so maybe it is good you resisted! ;D
I have also had people tell me that if you get 2 puppies at the same time they may bond more with each other than with you. I think unless you have the time, patience and experience, one puppy at a time is more than enough! ;D
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LOL. But seriously, what's a good dog sedative? j/k.
You can try Bach's Rescue Remedy, it is sold OTC in most health food and grocery stores. It is marketed to people but can be used in pets. You can get it in drops or a spray, I would get the drops if you decide to try it, the spray would probably be scary to her.
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You can try Bach's Rescue Remedy, it is sold OTC in most health food and grocery stores. It is marketed to people but can be used in pets. You can get it in drops or a spray, I would get the drops if you decide to try it, the spray would probably be scary to her.
I'm totally kidding. I wouldn't really sedate her....
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I'm totally kidding. I wouldn't really sedate her....
That wouldn't sedate her like a prescription would, lol, but it can be good for a calming affect, or for a stressful situation.
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That wouldn't sedate her like a prescription would, lol, but it can be good for a calming affect, or for a stressful situation.
hmmm....I'l look into it...thanks :)
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Just go by a sack Mind and blow some smoke in the pups face... HA-HA just kidding.. Welcome to the Petboard my friend. Your daughters are gogrgeous. I am having my first in May and I am stressed about raising a girl. Little heathen boys... >:( >:(
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Really nice pic :)
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Yesterday I got one HUGE crate that she will now be sleeping in and a 4 1/2 foot tall "pet fence". She's only 2 moths old, and managed to climb the pet fence with ease.
How in the heck did a 2mo old pup climb a fence that is 4 1/2 feet tall??? :o she probably cant even hold her ears up yet...you my friend are in trouble...big trouble.
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How in the heck did a 2mo old pup climb a fence that is 4 1/2 feet tall??? :o she probably cant even hold her ears up yet...you my friend are in trouble...big trouble.
I was amazed. I'll take some pics.
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Another thing with crate training is don't take them out when they are crying or barking. Wait until they are quiet, otherwise they may associate "I bark and I get let out" and keep it up.
She will probably quiet down soon, but it can be nerve wracking ::).
Exactly. This is a terrier puppy--she's going to push the envelope by nature of the group of dogs. The thing a new puppy owner absolutely cannot do is give into the dog when they are having a puppy temper tantrum or else they run the risk of going down a long painful road of the dog manipulating their every action while it runs wild causing intolerable havoc and destruction (ok, I'm exagerating, but you get it).
There was mention earlier of a HUGE crate---I actually think getting a smaller breed puppy a large crate like that can cause anxiety in some of the dogs. Dogs by nature are "ground dwellers" meaning that most of the canid species have puppies in relatively dark spaces underground. A large kennel without walls closeby can create a feeling of anxiety much like being in an open space. By initially using a smaller kennel with more solid walls (not wire, but a versa kennel type kennel) you mimick the burrow effect of the dogs nature. This is also similar to the nests that domestic dogs will make in boxes with towels/blankets etc. As the puppy ages, move to a larger kennel with open sides so the dog can see out and you can interact with the dog while its kenneled, just the same way a wild dog pup as it matures starts to venture out from the burrown. Second in a smaller breed puppies, giving them a huge space gives them a great place to shit and then back away from it. I think you can actually complicate house training/kennel breaking by having a kennel that is too large with some dogs.
Exercising the puppy before it goes to bed will work. Also taking half an hour or so for light exercise when you do the 3 AM poddy break (a must for housebreaking a puppy this young---they cannot hold it overnight, no matter how much you want them to, they have to have an opportunity to pee and maybe poop). Just be aware that the middle of the night session might get the dog more wound up and instigate an outburst. You can combat this by making that time a "strictly business" time where they go outside, they get their treat, and they come back in to bed, no ifs, no ands, no buts.
If the yapping continues, you can try distraction with something like a tincan filled with pennies or a boat horn (if you dont have any neighbors). the idea is to give a sharp distracting sound when the dog howls, followed with a firm NO. I'll be the first to say, this does not work with some puppies, so you have to use your judgement on using it.
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Yesterday I got one HUGE crate that she will now be sleeping in and a 4 1/2 foot tall "pet fence". She's only 2 moths old, and managed to climb the pet fence with ease.
Thanks Flower. I almost brought home one of her little brothers but wasn't sure. In retrospect, I should have. The whole littler is gne now.
Considering the breed, this dog is too young for a pet fence without adult supervision. She'll go over it, under it, or through it somehow and runs the risk of getting injured. She needs to be a bit older before the pet fences will work from the way you've described how she's acting.
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Exactly. This is a terrier puppy--she's going to push the envelope by nature of the group of dogs. The thing a new puppy owner absolutely cannot do is give into the dog when they are having a puppy temper tantrum or else they run the risk of going down a long painful road of the dog manipulating their every action while it runs wild causing intolerable havoc and destruction (ok, I'm exagerating, but you get it).
There was mention earlier of a HUGE crate---I actually think getting a smaller breed puppy a large crate like that can cause anxiety in some of the dogs. Dogs by nature are "ground dwellers" meaning that most of the canid species have puppies in relatively dark spaces underground. A large kennel without walls closeby can create a feeling of anxiety much like being in an open space. By initially using a smaller kennel with more solid walls (not wire, but a versa kennel type kennel) you mimick the burrow effect of the dogs nature. This is also similar to the nests that domestic dogs will make in boxes with towels/blankets etc. As the puppy ages, move to a larger kennel with open sides so the dog can see out and you can interact with the dog while its kenneled, just the same way a wild dog pup as it matures starts to venture out from the burrown. Second in a smaller breed puppies, giving them a huge space gives them a great place to shit and then back away from it. I think you can actually complicate house training/kennel breaking by having a kennel that is too large with some dogs.
Exercising the puppy before it goes to bed will work. Also taking half an hour or so for light exercise when you do the 3 AM poddy break (a must for housebreaking a puppy this young---they cannot hold it overnight, no matter how much you want them to, they have to have an opportunity to pee and maybe poop). Just be aware that the middle of the night session might get the dog more wound up and instigate an outburst. You can combat this by making that time a "strictly business" time where they go outside, they get their treat, and they come back in to bed, no ifs, no ands, no buts.
If the yapping continues, you can try distraction with something like a tincan filled with pennies or a boat horn (if you dont have any neighbors). the idea is to give a sharp distracting sound when the dog howls, followed with a firm NO. I'll be the first to say, this does not work with some puppies, so you have to use your judgement on using it.
That's too complicated. Can't I just throw an overhand right? :P j/k
We did have a small crate the 1st two nights. I bought a larger one last night. I think I'll try putting the little crate in the big one.
Thanks!!
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Considering the breed, this dog is too young for a pet fence without adult supervision. She'll go over it, under it, or through it somehow and runs the risk of getting injured. She needs to be a bit older before the pet fences will work from the way you've described how she's acting.
We're using the fence so that she can hang out in the family room without pissing all over the place...
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I've tried this several times & seems to help.....
Throw an old sweatshirt/shirt/coat of YOURS or whoever is the main influnece on the dog as bedding material inside the crate. Just one or two used articles of clothing. Eventually...(within the week or when the dog stops howling) remove the clothes otherwise they become shredded articles of clothing.
When crating the dog....don't just throw the dog in the crate only when you leave....or when you're going to bed. Give the pup some "nap" times. Just at random during the day....place the pup in there & work up to an hour at a time. Maybe for the first few times....5 minutes.....15 minutes....45 minutes....then 1 hour.
Don't make the crate feel like a negative energy.
Before you know it (you'll be amazed) the dog will look at the crate as a comfort zone & will take the naps & overnight sleep in there with enjoyment.
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I've tried this several times & seems to help.....
Throw an old sweatshirt/shirt/coat of YOURS or whoever is the main influnece on the dog as bedding material inside the crate. Just one or two used articles of clothing. Eventually...(within the week or when the dog stops howling) remove the clothes otherwise they become shredded articles of clothing.
When crating the dog....don't just throw the dog in the crate only when you leave....or when you're going to bed. Give the pup some "nap" times. Just at random during the day....place the pup in there & work up to an hour at a time. Maybe for the first few times....5 minutes.....15 minutes....45 minutes....then 1 hour.
Don't make the crate feel like a negative energy.
Before you know it (you'll be amazed) the dog will look at the crate as a comfort zone & will take the naps & overnight sleep in there with enjoyment.
Great idea on the article of clothing. I'll have to cut into my used underwear inventory...oh wel...
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Great idea on the article of clothing. I'll have to cut into my used underwear inventory...oh wel...
Very funny Mindskid....er, I mean Mindspring ;D
Have you taken more pics of Diki yet? We're waiting :D
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! She sounds like a caged animal going ape shit for the ENTIRE night.
!!!
Thoughts? Tips??? Help!!!
SHE IS A CAGED ANIMAL GOING APE SHIT!!!!
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Very funny Mindskid....er, I mean Mindspring ;D
Have you taken more pics of Diki yet? We're waiting :D
I've got tons, but I can't figure out how to resize them on this new Mac. Anyone know ho to resize on iphoto??
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I've got tons, but I can't figure out how to resize them on this new Mac. Anyone know ho to resize on iphoto??
:( No. Maybe knny can help?
You can try to email them to me and I can give it a try.
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I've got tons, but I can't figure out how to resize them on this new Mac. Anyone know ho to resize on iphoto??
I have a mac....& have no problem resizing them anywhere
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I didn't really read everyones posts but I can share what I did with Plato.
Things I agree with:
-Correcting the dog for whining. Firmly smack the side of the crate with your hand and give a stern "Shh" or "Quiet". Don't use "No", you want that to mean something else down the road.
-I fed Plato in the crate for 2 weeks when I first brought him home. Dogs are very reluctant and will usually not poop where they eat...and where they sleep for that matter. When I see people with dogs who mess in the crate and they clean it up every day I just don't get how it got like that.
Things I don't agree with:
-The putting of the towel or piece of clothing in the crate. The dog needs to learn to tough it out and not rely on you for EVERYTHING. It has to grow mentally. You aren't going to be there to save it every time something spooks it.
-Buying a huge crate. I think Vet touched on this that dogs will sometimes sleep in one corner and poop in the other.
In all honesty, by giving in the first night you give the dog the upper hand :) The first night I brought Plato home he was howling and crying. After 10-15min and 2-3 corrections, he was snoring his little butt off. Same thing with the week or two after and me going to class. Whining, scraping, yelling. I ignored and corrected. Now the crate is like his den. He sleeps in it 50% of the time and if he doesn't want to be bothered he will go and lay in it.
PS- Cute dog, good luck! Take it everywhere, let everyone pet it and don't coddle it if it's scared, just act like its no big deal(loud noises that spook it etc). Don't let it around ANY dog you do not know. NO NEGATIVE EXPERIENCES.
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I have a mac....& have no problem resizing them anywhere
cool. Can I resize on iPhoto or do I need to use something else?
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Things I don't agree with:
-The putting of the towel or piece of clothing in the crate. The dog needs to learn to tough it out and not rely on you for EVERYTHING. It has to grow mentally. You aren't going to be there to save it every time something spooks it.
Dog is not relying on you....it's making them "through smell" establish leadership & a sense of belonging. You become it's leader (if you want to call it that).
No different than smacking a cage & going "shhhh". Which IMO is making him get his way if you're getting up in the middle of the night to do so.
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Dog is not relying on you....it's making them "through smell" establish leadership & a sense of belonging. You become it's leader (if you want to call it that).
No different than smacking a cage & going "shhhh". Which IMO is making him get his way if you're getting up in the middle of the night to do so.
The dog was crying while in the room with him. Obviously has nothing to do with smell. The dog can definitely smell him a few feet away. At this point in a dogs life it has NO IDEA who it's leader is. No clue. This isn't established and cemented until months down the road, you build this bond. Just because you carried a puppy to your home means nothing to it. The dog using one its senses(smell) to tell that you are near is nothing close to a correction which lets it know the behavior is unwanted. If the a cat rubs up against it's crate it will also leave its smell, the dog is not going to believe it is it's leader because its crate smells like a cat.
The dog getting its way would be letting it out of the crate, not getting your attention. If the dog getting your attention warrants a correction, it will learn that what got your attention is negative behavior and must stop.
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I personally don't like the clothing idea because of the fact that it can predestine the dog to getting into your good clothes and destroying them. Think about it, a dog (especially a puppy) doesn't know the designation between something you think is a "nice" shirt and an "old one" that they are allowed to chew on----which a puppy will more than likely do if its placed in a kennel with them. If you end up with a high strung dog with a destructive streak, giving them access to clothing like that and encouraging close interaction with it may end up costing you a bundle----in new clothes, or worse yet in surgery to remove the clothing article.
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I personally don't like the clothing idea because of the fact that it can predestine the dog to getting into your good clothes and destroying them. Think about it, a dog (especially a puppy) doesn't know the designation between something you think is a "nice" shirt and an "old one" that they are allowed to chew on----which a puppy will more than likely do if its placed in a kennel with them. If you end up with a high strung dog with a destructive streak, giving them access to clothing like that and encouraging close interaction with it may end up costing you a bundle----in new clothes, or worse yet in surgery to remove the clothing article.
Ya, people do that with shoes. If a puppy is a chewer and is always stealing your shoes, people will sometimes give them an old shoe to chew on instead, lol. The dog doesn't know whether that shoe is new or old, it just knows it can still chew on shoes.
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Ya, people do that with shoes. If a puppy is a chewer and is always stealing your shoes, people will sometimes give them an old shoe to chew on instead, lol. The dog doesn't know whether that shoe is new or old, it just knows it can still chew on shoes.
Yeah, my aunt created a monster with her peakapoo doing that. I warned her when she started putting "old" tennis shoes in the kennel with the puppy. She didn't listen. Now that dog (who is going on 5) rarely plays with "dog" toys but will eat anything that looks remotely like a tennis/running shoe. Now my aunt is complaining about the dog being a bad dog and she just won't have it that she created this problem when the dog was a puppy.
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I personally don't like the clothing idea because of the fact that it can predestine the dog to getting into your good clothes and destroying them. Think about it, a dog (especially a puppy) doesn't know the designation between something you think is a "nice" shirt and an "old one" that they are allowed to chew on----which a puppy will more than likely do if its placed in a kennel with them. If you end up with a high strung dog with a destructive streak, giving them access to clothing like that and encouraging close interaction with it may end up costing you a bundle----in new clothes, or worse yet in surgery to remove the clothing article.
Never had that happened once
but
not saying it hasn't
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Lots of great advise...thanks. I ended up putting hot water bottle securely wrapped in a pillow case inside her crate along with an old pair of pants. She's actually slept through the last two nights. I have a large dog cage that we now keep in our family into which we put the small crate during the day. That's where she hangs out when we're not home.
Potty training is going pretty damn good. Only had a couple of accidents...luckily on hardwood floor, not the carpet.
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Lots of great advise...thanks. I ended up putting hot water bottle securely wrapped in a pillow case inside her crate along with an old pair of pants. She's actually slept through the last two nights. I have a large dog cage that we now keep in our family into which we put the small crate during the day. That's where she hangs out when we're not home.
Potty training is going pretty damn good. Only had a couple of accidents...luckily on hardwood floor, not the carpet.
Potty training with some dogs seems to be a nightmare and so easy with others. Just make sure to praise like she just did the best thing in the world when she goes where shes supposed to, especially if you catch her in the act. If you DO catch her in the act, just a quick verbal correction and pick her up and carry her to where you want her to go will do the trick. If you catch her trying to potty in the house do not make a huge deal out of it. Don't yell, don't scream. Alot of times when people give over the top corrections it leads to the dog hiding it.
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Lots of great advise...thanks. I ended up putting hot water bottle securely wrapped in a pillow case inside her crate along with an old pair of pants. She's actually slept through the last two nights. I have a large dog cage that we now keep in our family into which we put the small crate during the day. That's where she hangs out when we're not home.
Potty training is going pretty damn good. Only had a couple of accidents...luckily on hardwood floor, not the carpet.
Glad it's going well.
Those little tricks always work.....just only do it for a few days.....till they get used to the new home & adopted family.
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You also have to realize that you got a yappy dog. They're sweethearts yes, but quiet, no. From dogbreedinfo.com:
"Sweet, gentle and loving, the Tibetan Terrier is lively, mild, and fun, but can be a bit willful. Reserved with strangers, but very dedicated to their owners, they are not happy when left alone. This breed does best with older, considerate children. This brave, intelligent, medium-sized dog likes to bark and is a particularly good watch dog. Its bark is deep like a rising siren. When the Tibetan Terrier is with other dogs it can try to dominate. In the United States, Tibetan Terriers' bloodlines vary in terms of height, coat, and personality. Check with the breeder about any particular litter's genealogy. The Tibetan Terrier has great agility as well as endurance.
In other words, you've got a dog that will never be quiet. And from what i've experienced at the shelter and clinic they can be snappy (any terrier for that matter) and uncooperative. Good luck, but remember what you're dealing with.
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You also have to realize that you got a yappy dog. They're sweethearts yes, but quiet, no. From dogbreedinfo.com:
"Sweet, gentle and loving, the Tibetan Terrier is lively, mild, and fun, but can be a bit willful. Reserved with strangers, but very dedicated to their owners, they are not happy when left alone. This breed does best with older, considerate children. This brave, intelligent, medium-sized dog likes to bark and is a particularly good watch dog. Its bark is deep like a rising siren. When the Tibetan Terrier is with other dogs it can try to dominate. In the United States, Tibetan Terriers' bloodlines vary in terms of height, coat, and personality. Check with the breeder about any particular litter's genealogy. The Tibetan Terrier has great agility as well as endurance.
In other words, you've got a dog that will never be quiet. And from what i've experienced at the shelter and clinic they can be snappy (any terrier for that matter) and uncooperative. Good luck, but remember what you're dealing with.
Breed descriptions mean nothing, and are most times completely false. He got a Tibetan Terrier for christs sakes he didn't get a Presa Canario...relax :)
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I'm not saying its dangerous, i'm just saying that they're loud as all hell.
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I'm not saying its dangerous, i'm just saying that they're loud as all hell.
Ehhh, I dunno. As I said I don't believe in those breed stereotypes. All Chow's arent antisocial, all akita's aren't dog aggressive, etc. That is a whole 'nother topic.
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Well, i see one on a daily basis and its loud, never stops barking and fits the breed description perfectly.
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So much drama. So much drama.
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Well, i see one on a daily basis and its loud, never stops barking and fits the breed description perfectly.
If one pitbull attack and kills a yorkie does that mean all pitbulls will attack and kill yorkies?
If one black kid who lives in west philly shoots a cop for a traffic stop, does that mean all black kids in west philly will shoot cops when they get pulled over?
Stupid logic, come on man.
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If one pitbull attack and kills a yorkie does that mean all pitbulls will attack and kill yorkies?
If one black kid who lives in west philly shoots a cop for a traffic stop, does that mean all black kids in west philly will shoot cops when they get pulled over?
Stupid logic, come on man.
Well, black people are another story...
as for the dogs, i'm not saying all tibetan terriers will be this way. HOWEVER, what he is describing fits the breed description to a T. The dog i see on a daily basis is a nice dog, but loud as all hell. My pit bull doesn't bark. Amen.
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Well, black people are another story...
as for the dogs, i'm not saying all tibetan terriers will be this way. HOWEVER, what he is describing fits the breed description to a T. The dog i see on a daily basis is a nice dog, but loud as all hell. My pit bull doesn't bark. Amen.
Yeah, i'd classify Tibetan Terriers as "yappy", maybe even "super yappy"---or at least thats the case with the majority of the ones I've seen as patients. Its sort of like beagles. You get a beagle, you are pretty much guaranteed its going to bark and howl sometimes.
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Well this Tibetan Terrier definitely gets loud as fuck and the siren description fits it perfectly. However, that's only at night when she is in her crate. During the day she doesn't make a sound. Bottom line she doesn't like being alone...
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Well this Tibetan Terrier definitely gets loud as fuck and the siren description fits it perfectly. However, that's only at night when she is in her crate. During the day she doesn't make a sound. Bottom line she doesn't like being alone...
You should of went with my suggestion
A boxer would have been a good fit for your family & lifestyle
;D
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Well this Tibetan Terrier definitely gets loud as fuck and the siren description fits it perfectly. However, that's only at night when she is in her crate. During the day she doesn't make a sound. Bottom line she doesn't like being alone...
I would do some research on separation anxiety.
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every dog i have ever owned sleeps in the bed,my current dog made me upgrade to the california king size bed :D
bench
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every dog i have ever owned sleeps in the bed,my current dog made me upgrade to the california king size bed :D
bench
That's why we have the Cal. King, both Chucka and Chaos sleep with me and the wife. Chaos is starting to do the floor because he gets tired of both of us yanking around the blankets and moving him.. ha-ha
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That's why we have the Cal. King, both Chucka and Chaos sleep with me and the wife. Chaos is starting to do the floor because he gets tired of both of us yanking around the blankets and moving him.. ha-ha
i got bad ass insomnia so i am usually just watching tv or on the computer at night.so the bed is pretty much hers anyway ;D
bench
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I would do some research on separation anxiety.
Not in a dog this young. If its got legitimate seperation anxiety this early, its going to be a real real mess once its an adult.
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Not in a dog this young. If its got legitimate seperation anxiety this early, its going to be a real real mess once its an adult.
I didn't say it had separation anxiety, but the treatment for a dog with it and puppies who don't like being left alone or crated is similar.
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When we got our dog, we would crate him and make short trips out and gradually make them longer. It seemed to work well for us.
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If one pitbull attack and kills a yorkie does that mean all pitbulls will attack and kill yorkies?
If one black kid who lives in west philly shoots a cop for a traffic stop, does that mean all black kids in west philly will shoot cops when they get pulled over?
Stupid logic, come on man.
the examples you just used are stupid logic, but looking at typical breed characteristics is not. If you don't want a yappy dog, or an extremely active dog then you stay away from breeds that typically have those characteristics even though you may get the exception. Don't you think some dogs end up in shelters because people thought they would get the exception to the rule dog or that they would be able to change it and they couldn't? If you are set on a particular breed but don't like some of the characteristics then you should look for an adult dog that you will know how it is and look for the exception dog.
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the examples you just used are stupid logic, but looking at typical breed characteristics is not. If you don't want a yappy dog, or an extremely active dog then you stay away from breeds that typically have those characteristics even though you may get the exception. Don't you think some dogs end up in shelters because people thought they would get the exception to the rule dog or that they would be able to change it and they couldn't? If you are set on a particular breed but don't like some of the characteristics then you should look for an adult dog that you will know how it is and look for the exception dog.
Flower, this isn't a raw food debate.
Traps said:
"Well, i see one on a daily basis and its loud, never stops barking and fits the breed description perfectly."
He is basing his info off ONE dog.
I used two examples with the SAME logic.
Reading comprehension will set you free, but thanks for your priceless info.
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Flower, this isn't a raw food debate.
Traps said:
"Well, i see one on a daily basis and its loud, never stops barking and fits the breed description perfectly."
He is basing his info off ONE dog.
I used two examples with the SAME logic.
Reading comprehension will set you free, but thanks for your priceless info.
I love it when you toss that in, great discussion tactic. :)
You should check your reading comprehension. ;)
your examples aren't listed as a characteristic are they? Unlike what Traps said:
Well, black people are another story...
as for the dogs, i'm not saying all tibetan terriers will be this way. HOWEVER, what he is describing fits the breed description to a T. The dog i see on a daily basis is a nice dog, but loud as all hell. My pit bull doesn't bark. Amen.
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I love it when you toss that in, great discussion tactic. :)
You should check your reading comprehension. ;)
your examples aren't listed as a characteristic are they? Unlike what Traps said:
You make zero fucking sense. You don't even read. Traps said that in REPLY to my example. Seriously, how delusional are you?
I don't even believe in the fact that every breed that is "typically and stereotypically" yappy or defensive or independent or whatever, has to fit that description.
He used one fucking dog to base his opinion on. WITH THAT LOGIC, every 18 year old black kid in my city is a criminal. He says Tibetan Terriers are yappy because he knows ONE DOG THAT IS.
READ FLOWER READ
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I did not use ONE dog to base my opinion off of. I see one on a daily basis and its very loud and fits the breed description perfectly. I have exncountered other tibetan terriers and they're loud as well. I just referenced the one i see on a consistent basis. Nice dog, loud as hell, fits the breed description.
Lets think about my pit bull for a second.
From Dogbreedinfo.com:
That sly smile, those determined eyes, that unwaning pleasure to please... the mere quality and characteristics of the APBT have evoked more human emotional, rational, and irrational response than any other breed that exists today. By no means are these dogs people-haters or people-eaters. Their natural aggressive tendencies are toward other dogs and animals, not people. However if they are properly socialized they will not even be aggressive with them. These are truly quality companions for quality owners only! The American Pit Bull Terrier is a good-natured, amusing, extremely loyal and affectionate family pet, which is good with children and adults. Almost always obedient, it is always eager to please its master. It is an extremely courageous and intelligent guard dog that is very full of vitality. Highly protective of his owners and the owner's property, it will fight an enemy to the death. It is usually very friendly, but has an uncanny ability to know when it needs to protect and when everything is okay. The American Pit Bull Terrier can be willful and needs a firm hand. They are generally okay with other pets if they are raised with them from puppy hood. For the most part they are very friendly, but not recommended for most people. Excellent with children in the family, they have a high pain tolerance and will happily put up with rough child play. As with any breed, they should not be left alone with unfamiliar children. Originally used as fighting dogs, the powerful American Pit Bull may go for the throat of strange dogs. A minimum of training will produce a tranquil, obedient dog. Socialize very thoroughly when young to combat aggressive tendencies and be sure to keep the dog under control when other dogs are present. It has given outstanding results as a guardian of property, but is at the same time esteemed as a companion dog. When properly trained and socialized, this is a very good dog and a great family companion. Unfortunately, some choose to promote the fighting instinct in the breed, giving it a bad name.
Everything i put in bold would be the points where my dog fits the breed description exactly. the one part i italicized i disagree with because pit bulls are HORRIBLE gaurd dogs, don't bark and are so friendly with strangers that pit bull breeders often have to buy other dogs to protect their champion pits from being stolen. Now, is every pit this way, no. is it an overall somewhat accurate description of the breed? yes. So in this instance, the breed description is valuable and accurate.
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Sigh
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I don't understand what you have against breed descriptions man. they are, if nothing else, a good indicator of what you are getting. Remember that the domesticated dog is essentially a controlled experiment by which the desired genes are bred with other desired genes (traits). Thus, a breed description would be pretty concise most of the time, right?
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I don't understand what you have against breed descriptions man. they are, if nothing else, a good indicator of what you are getting. Remember that the domesticated dog is essentially a controlled experiment by which the desired genes are bred with other desired genes (traits). Thus, a breed description would be pretty concise most of the time, right?
I am not saying they have no basis whatsoever. But they are not 100% true and not 100% an accurate representation. If a dog comes from a breeding program that is breeding dogs to adhere 100% to the standard, then yes you more than likely will have such a dog. But at the same time, just because a dog is an Akita for example does not make it dog aggressive. I also do not believe that a Tibetan Terrier has to be yappy, and if it is, just because it is a Tibetan Terrier, does not mean it can't be taught/guided to be "not yappy".
My problem with that stuff is when people go "Oh hes protective cause hes a Rottie", "Oh she howls cause its a Beagle", "Oh yeah hes a pitbull he doesn't like other dogs".
No....people say all those things because they are idiots! Your dog can be exactly the way you want it to be, more or less, or you can usually significantly alter unwanted behaviors. If Mindspin has a high strung, yappy dog, he can do alot to help fix that. The fact that is a Tibetan Terrier is not the issue.
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Do you have a garage?
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Who ever said breed descriptions were 100% accurate or true, temper? You said they were illogical to use. I think they are illogical not to use or consider when deciding on a breed of dog. If their are certain traits you want in a dog, or definitely don't want in a dog you can look closer into certain breeds and stay away from others, or at least know what you may be getting into and decide to accept that.
The fact that dogs were breed over years for certain traits and behaviors is the very reason that it can be difficult to "change" a dog. People get a herding breed then get pissed that it tries to herd the kids. Or a yappy dog that was bred to be an alarm for intruders. You don't get that dog planning on "changing" it, you better be prepared to accept or deal with the fact that you might not be able to get rid of the behavior. Rat terriers, for instance, are usually very energetic. Don't get a rat terrier if you want a dog that is very calm and think you will just dominate it into being docile.
Aren't you the person who has said that people get a pit and are clueless on how it needs a more dominant person for it's temperament and characteristics? That people get it and think they can treat it like a small dog and they end up with problems because they were lax in training and discipline? Isn't that "illogicial" by what you have you have said in this thread? ::)
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You make zero fucking sense. You don't even read. Traps said that in REPLY to my example. Seriously, how delusional are you?
I don't even believe in the fact that every breed that is "typically and stereotypically" yappy or defensive or independent or whatever, has to fit that description.
He used one fucking dog to base his opinion on. WITH THAT LOGIC, every 18 year old black kid in my city is a criminal. He says Tibetan Terriers are yappy because he knows ONE DOG THAT IS.
READ FLOWER READ
You read, he didn't base it on one dog, he based it on breed descriptions that he has read (written by people that have experience with the breed) AND that he has personally interacted with a dog that matched the expert descriptions.
So what exactly is wrong saying the experts say most XYZ breed will have these characteristics and the dog they have personally dealt with did fit that description, so it seems your dog is fitting the typical breed characteristics?
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I am not saying they have no basis whatsoever. But they are not 100% true and not 100% an accurate representation. If a dog comes from a breeding program that is breeding dogs to adhere 100% to the standard, then yes you more than likely will have such a dog. But at the same time, just because a dog is an Akita for example does not make it dog aggressive. I also do not believe that a Tibetan Terrier has to be yappy, and if it is, just because it is a Tibetan Terrier, does not mean it can't be taught/guided to be "not yappy".
My problem with that stuff is when people go "Oh hes protective cause hes a Rottie", "Oh she howls cause its a Beagle", "Oh yeah hes a pitbull he doesn't like other dogs".
No....people say all those things because they are idiots! Your dog can be exactly the way you want it to be, more or less, or you can usually significantly alter unwanted behaviors. If Mindspin has a high strung, yappy dog, he can do alot to help fix that. The fact that is a Tibetan Terrier is not the issue.
Ok, if you don't believe those things then you are missing the link between breeding standards and the dogs themselves. Rottweilers are bred to be protective. Beagles howl and bay from being bred for hunters. These are selective traits that have been bred into the dogs for a certain purpose and for the most part, you can't just "change" them, or train them to your standards all of a sudden. If that were true, why would so many pit bull experts say that even the most well socialized and dog friendly pit never be left off leash with other dogs it doesn't know well? Because they were bred to fight other dogs, its in the genes. Why do sheps herd people's kids? Its in the genes. Why do yappy dogs yap? its in the genes.
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Ok, if you don't believe those things then you are missing the link between breeding standards and the dogs themselves. Rottweilers are bred to be protective. Beagles howl and bay from being bred for hunters. These are selective traits that have been bred into the dogs for a certain purpose and for the most part, you can't just "change" them, or train them to your standards all of a sudden. If that were true, why would so many pit bull experts say that even the most well socialized and dog friendly pit never be left off leash with other dogs it doesn't know well? Because they were bred to fight other dogs, its in the genes. Why do sheps herd people's kids? Its in the genes. Why do yappy dogs yap? its in the genes.
First off, Flower no offense but when it comes to behavior I don't read your posts and don't plan on it.
Secondly, please show me an "expert" who says what I bolded. Don't make ridiculous statements like that. And now you are going to google and try to find some random shit on the internet. I am not missing a link between breeding standards. Most of the time breeding is done based on the physical aspect of the dog, unless the breeder is doing so for working purposes. You aren't going to find breeders of show dogs that have Rottweilers with extremely high drives, because it isn't necessary.
"These are selective traits that have been bred into the dogs for a certain purpose and for the most part, you can't just "change" them, or train them to your standards all of a sudden."
LOL yes you can. Here is another idiot who believes "Oh well you can't leave the pitbull alone with other dogs because its a pitbull". You just proved that by the statement about "Experts" believing what I bolded. That is complete and total absolute 100% fucking bullshit.
For the 500th time. PITBULLS ARE TRAINED TO BE DOG AGGRESSIVE FROM BIRTH. THEY DO NOT COME OUT OF THE WOMB AND ATTACK EVERY DOG THEY SEE. THEY ARE NOT GENETICALLY DOG AGGRESSIVE DOGS. PITBULLS HAVE A HIGHER LEVEL OF GAMENESS AND THIS IS WHAT IS BRED INTO THEM AND WHY THEY ARE SELECTED FOR THE PIT. IT IS NOT BECAUSE THEY ARE A GENETICALLY DOG AGGRESSIVE BREED.
Get it through your head.
edit: And now that you think about it. What dog should be let off a leash around other dogs it doesn't know well really? Unless you KNOW KNOW the dog.
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First off, Flower no offense but when it comes to behavior I don't read your posts and don't plan on it.
Secondly, please show me an "expert" who says what I bolded. Don't make ridiculous statements like that. And now you are going to google and try to find some random shit on the internet. I am not missing a link between breeding standards. Most of the time breeding is done based on the physical aspect of the dog, unless the breeder is doing so for working purposes. You aren't going to find breeders of show dogs that have Rottweilers with extremely high drives, because it isn't necessary.
"These are selective traits that have been bred into the dogs for a certain purpose and for the most part, you can't just "change" them, or train them to your standards all of a sudden."
LOL yes you can. Here is another idiot who believes "Oh well you can't leave the pitbull alone with other dogs because its a pitbull". You just proved that by the statement about "Experts" believing what I bolded. That is complete and total absolute 100% fucking bullshit.
For the 500th time. PITBULLS ARE TRAINED TO BE DOG AGGRESSIVE FROM BIRTH. THEY DO NOT COME OUT OF THE WOMB AND ATTACK EVERY DOG THEY SEE. THEY ARE NOT GENETICALLY DOG AGGRESSIVE DOGS. PITBULLS HAVE A HIGHER LEVEL OF GAMENESS AND THIS IS WHAT IS BRED INTO THEM AND WHY THEY ARE SELECTED FOR THE PIT. IT IS NOT BECAUSE THEY ARE A GENETICALLY DOG AGGRESSIVE BREED.Get it through your head.
edit: And now that you think about it. What dog should be let off a leash around other dogs it doesn't know well really? Unless you KNOW KNOW the dog.
Pitbulls are indeed dog agressive out of the womb unless they are socialized, this is a known fact. they instinctively know to go for the neck, the gameness only increases their ability to do damage. Unless you socialize a pit bull from a young age, it will most likely be very dog aggressive. You also don't have to teach a pit bull how to fight, they know how because its in their genetic makeup. i work with a pitbull rescue group, i work with the spca, i know my shit. You can chose to accept this or not. what we are dealing with is commonly referred to by experts as "prey drive," an instictive trait that was bred into bullies.
You're also missing the point of this. I'm not saying every dog is exactly the breed description, but there are factors at work that go down their genetic makeup that do indeed have a larger impact on their personality and behaviors than any amount of training, socialization or therapy.
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You quoted Traps but are replying to me? Seems if you don't read my posts you wouldn't have anything to reply to. :D You not reading them would explain you talking out of your ass though. Either read them and make a reply that goes along with the discussion, or don't reply at all.
You have worked yourself into such a tither that you have went off the original discussion just to try and "prove" something. ;D
LOL!!!! ;D
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If I want an ankle biter....I will get a Chi
;)
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Pitbulls are indeed dog agressive out of the womb unless they are socialized, this is a known fact. they instinctively know to go for the neck, the gameness only increases their ability to do damage. Unless you socialize a pit bull from a young age, it will most likely be very dog aggressive. You also don't have to teach a pit bull how to fight, they know how because its in their genetic makeup. i work with a pitbull rescue group, i work with the spca, i know my shit. You can chose to accept this or not. what we are dealing with is commonly referred to by experts as "prey drive," an instictive trait that was bred into bullies.
You're also missing the point of this. I'm not saying every dog is exactly the breed description, but there are factors at work that go down their genetic makeup that do indeed have a larger impact on their personality and behaviors than any amount of training, socialization or therapy.
Wow. Just wow.
You might be the dumbest dog owner I have ever met. People like you shouldn't even be allowed to own a dog.
This conversation is over until you can find me a reputable source that says pitbulls are dog aggressive from the moment they are born. I on the other hand have my own personal experience. I have sat in on an interrogation of 2 dogmen who pretty much agree with everything that I say, and these are people who trained puppies to fight. I know 2-3 people who have had litters of pitbull puppies as I was a kid growing up and never had any formal training of them whatsoever and none of them were dog aggressive. One of these people was my next door neighbor.
Also, people like Fogle, The Monks of New Skete, Baer and Duno, Frank Nelson, Cesar Milan, Patricia McConnell.....all disagree with the myth of dogs being born aggressive, such as pitbulls.
So please sir, find me an "Expert" who can explain to me how pitbulls are aggressive out of the womb. Because surely, all of these people are wrong and the one and only "TrapsMcLats" is right.
What an idiot.
PS- Flower: You know nothing about behavior. I just don't read your posts regarding it. That is pretty much all. No one is worked into a tither. It is the internet darling.
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get ahold of yourself temper. ::)
Think about what what I said -
I said that maybe more dogs wouldn't end up in shelters if people looked into typical breed characteristics before getting a dog. You think that is "illogical" because not every dog will be the typical standard? okey-dokey
Great advice to give someone - you'd tell them to get whatever the hell breed they want and "dominate" it into being the way they think it should be. ;D
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get ahold of yourself temper. ::)
Think about what what I said -
I said that maybe more dogs wouldn't end up in shelters if people looked into typical breed characteristics before getting a dog. You think that is "illogical" because not every dog will be the typical standard? okey-dokey
Great advice to give someone - you'd tell them to get whatever the hell breed they want and "dominate" it into being the way they think it should be. ;D
Quote where I told someone to dominate a dog. Please do that.
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Quote where I told someone to dominate a dog. Please do that.
you said you could train them to be more or less the way YOU want them to be, you are going to breed the herding instinct out of a dog that was bred to herd? How else are you going to undo years of breeding for certain traits and behaviors accept by dominating the animal and making it go against it's inbred instincts? You could have some seriously messed up dogs by trying to drastically change them to fit you, instead of choosing a dog that should already start out as a better fit.
people say all those things because they are idiots! Your dog can be exactly the way you want it to be, more or less, or you can usually significantly alter unwanted behaviors. If Mindspin has a high strung, yappy dog, he can do alot to help fix that. The fact that is a Tibetan Terrier is not the issue.
Do you really think it is illogical to use typical breed characteristics to help a person decide which breeds might be a good fit for their family/lifestyle?
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you said you could train them to be more or less the way YOU want them to be, you are going to breed the herding instinct out of a dog that was bred to herd? How else are you going to undo years of breeding for certain traits and behaviors accept by dominating the animal and making it go against it's inbred instincts? You could have some seriously messed up dogs by trying to drastically change them to fit you, instead of choosing a dog that should already start out as a better fit.
Do you really think it is illogical to use typical breed characteristics to help a person decide which breeds might be a good fit for their family/lifestyle?
No I don't think thats illogical at all, which is why people shouldn't own dogs who have the potential to be problems if untrained if they are unwilling to train them. Most people are, that is the problem. People are lazy and ignorant.
I still never said dominate. I did say train though :)
Good call there flower, wrong again. SHOCKER.
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Breed descriptions mean nothing, and are most times completely false. He got a Tibetan Terrier for christs sakes he didn't get a Presa Canario...relax :)
Ehhh, I dunno. As I said I don't believe in those breed stereotypes. All Chow's arent antisocial, all akita's aren't dog aggressive, etc. That is a whole 'nother topic.
and traps wrote
Well, i see one on a daily basis and its loud, never stops barking and fits the breed description perfectly.
and you replied:
If one pitbull attack and kills a yorkie does that mean all pitbulls will attack and kill yorkies?
If one black kid who lives in west philly shoots a cop for a traffic stop, does that mean all black kids in west philly will shoot cops when they get pulled over?
Stupid logic, come on man.
::) flippy floppy
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No I don't think thats illogical at all, which is why people shouldn't own dogs who have the potential to be problems if untrained if they are unwilling to train them. Most people are, that is the problem. People are lazy and ignorant.
if breed descriptions in your opinion are mostly completely false, how is someone to know that they are getting a potential problem dog that maybe they shouldn't own? 8)
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and traps wrote
and you replied:
::) flippy floppy
.... What?
Everything I said coincides with what I believe.
I said **********************I******************* don't believe in breed descriptions or put weight in them. I wouldn't call it flip flopping. I said for other people I believe in that being a good idea because they are unwilling to train them.
Where is the issue?
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.... What?
Everything I said coincides with what I believe.
I said **********************I******************* don't believe in breed descriptions or put weight in them. I wouldn't call it flip flopping. I said for other people I believe in that being a good idea because they are unwilling to train them.
Where is the issue?
LOL!!!! ;D
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if breed descriptions in your opinion are mostly completely false, how is someone to know that they are getting a potential problem dog that maybe they shouldn't own? 8)
See the difference?
I have said all along whether or not Tibetans are this or this does not mean it is un-correctable. Of course Rottweilers are inherently protective, but all it takes is guidance and rules to let it know its boundaries.
If you actually read a post and took a second away from cutting up raw food for your chihuahua, you would see that theres a common theme of training in every statement I make like this.
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LOL!!!! ;D
I'm glad you are getting a kick out of me.
Ignorance is bliss.
If you ever come to Philly you can bring your dogs and I'll show you everything you are doing wrong. Free of charge. Well, maybe we can cook some of your dogs raw food and have dinner with that. Deal?
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See the difference?
I have said all along whether or not Tibetans are this or this does not mean it is un-correctable. Of course Rottweilers are inherently protective, but all it takes is guidance and rules to let it know its boundaries.
If you actually read a post and took a second away from cutting up raw food for your chihuahua, you would see that theres a common theme of training in every statement I make like this.
LOL!!! ;D
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Wow. Just wow.
You might be the dumbest dog owner I have ever met. People like you shouldn't even be allowed to own a dog.
This conversation is over until you can find me a reputable source that says pitbulls are dog aggressive from the moment they are born. I on the other hand have my own personal experience. I have sat in on an interrogation of 2 dogmen who pretty much agree with everything that I say, and these are people who trained puppies to fight. I know 2-3 people who have had litters of pitbull puppies as I was a kid growing up and never had any formal training of them whatsoever and none of them were dog aggressive. One of these people was my next door neighbor.
Also, people like Fogle, The Monks of New Skete, Baer and Duno, Frank Nelson, Cesar Milan, Patricia McConnell.....all disagree with the myth of dogs being born aggressive, such as pitbulls.
So please sir, find me an "Expert" who can explain to me how pitbulls are aggressive out of the womb. Because surely, all of these people are wrong and the one and only "TrapsMcLats" is right.
What an idiot.
Ok, i am going to cite badrap.org, the organization that evaluated many of the vick dogs and are, what i consider, experts on pit bulls. I do work with this organization, i donate money to this organization and i consider myself to be more than a self proclaimed expert on pit bulls. I have experience training them, evaluating them and working with them (spca, ARF, animal control). http://www.badrap.org/rescue/myths.cfm:
Don't pit bulls have to be TRAINED TO FIGHT?
No, pit bulls are terriers, and terriers tend to be scrappy with other animals if left unsocialized, poorly managed or left to their own devices. Just as farmers have used jack russel terriers to do battle with badgers, foxes and other animals, unscrupulous people have exploited the terrier drive in pit bulls against other dogs for "entertainment" purposes. Like many breeds, pit bulls can run the gammut from very dog aggressive to exceptionaly dog friendly, but each dog shares some potential to fight other dogs if mismanaged. Avoiding dog fights invloves understanding terrier traits and basic canine behavior in general.
Yeah, i'm such an idiot... ::) God forbid i cite the knowledge i've learned as a professional.
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If you are a self proclaimed expert on pit bulls, may god help us all.
Having you spew shit as the mouth of reason for pitbull behavior and speaking for them in any way on this forum when there is quite a few people here who own pitbulls and know their shit...is like having Corky from Life Goes On give a seminar to Stephen Hawking's class of Math majors at Cambridge University.
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I own two pitbulls... and you're nowhere near as knowledgeable as i am. Both my dogs are registered therapy dogs and canine good citizens. I gaurantee that other pit experts here, like body88, would agree with everything i have said. The fact is, you have no rebuttle to my last post and all you can do is try and insult me. I come at you with facts and experience. Another point i would like to make, people like cesar milan, or other "dog experts" are usually never going to say anything the least bit pessimistic or negative about any breed because they are looking to make money. They claim to be dog purists or dog lovers, which is true... but they have the liberty of coming from that angle. If you work for a non profit organization like the SPCA or BADRAP you have to be a dog realist and realize every potential pro and con of every dog you encounter.
I do consider myself a voice of reason for the breed because i am out there working for their good name. I donate money, my time, my house and anything else i can do to make up for the bad owners out there ruining the breed. I challenge anyone on this board to present more knowledge on this breed than myself. I also take extreme offense to being told that I should not be allowed to own dogs simply because i take a conservative, if not cautious, approach to dog ownership.
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I own two pitbulls... and you're nowhere near as knowledgeable as i am. Both my dogs are registered therapy dogs and canine good citizens. I gaurantee that other pit experts here, like body88, would agree with everything i have said. The fact is, you have no rebuttle to my last post and all you can do is try and insult me. I come at you with facts and experience. Another point i would like to make, people like cesar milan, or other "dog experts" are usually never going to say anything the least bit pessimistic or negative about any breed because they are looking to make money. They claim to be dog purists or dog lovers, which is true... but they have the liberty of coming from that angle. If you work for a non profit organization like the SPCA or BADRAP you have to be a dog realist and realize every potential pro and con of every dog you encounter.
I do consider myself a voice of reason for the breed because i am out there working for their good name. I donate money, my time, my house and anything else i can do to make up for the bad owners out there ruining the breed. I challenge anyone on this board to present more knowledge on this breed than myself. I also take extreme offense to being told that I should not be allowed to own dogs simply because i take a conservative, if not cautious, approach to dog ownership.
Cesar Milan's main dog is a pitbull and preaches about the fact that it has nothing to do with breed. Have you read his books. There is a section called "The Myth of the Problem Breed"
Can I have your name and the name of your 2 dogs so I can look up and find their CGC certificates and what therapy dog association they are registered with? For a pitbull owner whom both has registered therapy dogs and obedience titled dogs to be so ignorant is really saddening to me. I'd like to verify this.
PM me the info.
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Again with the insults... thats really not necessary and i'd like you to point out where i am being so ignorant. I have backed up all my statements with sound evidence from well respected organizations and websites. I sound like a knowledeable, reasonable, responsible pit owner.
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Again with the insults... thats really not necessary and i'd like you to point out where i am being so ignorant. I have backed up all my statements with sound evidence from well respected organizations and websites. I sound like a knowledeable, reasonable, responsible pit owner.
I got your PM. You can photocopy their certificates with your own name blacked out. I can post my own dogs CGC certificate that he passed when he was 9 months old if you like.
I just don't believe you. That is the issue. You brought it up, I called you out.
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I got your PM. You can photocopy their certificates with your own name blacked out. I can post my own dogs CGC certificate that he passed when he was 9 months old if you like.
I just don't believe you. That is the issue. You brought it up, I called you out.
Thats really great, i told you i don't send info to strangers, especially over the net. I still want to know where I sound so ignorant.
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From your PM, regarding Cesar:
"He is incredible, no doubt, but he has also killed people's pits by leaving them unattended on treadmills on more than one occasion (one was a big NBC or CBS exec or something) and he has displayed other things that have troubled me. redman had a problem with a pitbull of his, so cesar took it, trained and then took it on an appearance on the jay leno show. The dog was extremely sweet, well behaved and kind. With a simple command, the dog was growling and looking menacingly at Leno, then he made another command and the dog went right back to its previous state. "
I have NEVER EVER heard that about the CBS/NBC exec. Please prove that. I ain't sayin it isn't true but I doubt it.
Also. Redman gave his pitbull to Cesar when he was a puppy so he wouldn't have to travel with it. He uses that pitbull "Daddy" for a ton of shows and brings him to any appearance local in the LA area. I have never heard anything of the sort about Daddy.
Cesar did a seminar for the Colonial Rottweiler Club about a year ago. Mostly all of my obedience school went. It was awesome and he spoke for like 3 hours. Someone had their Rottie there who was from another club, I believe his name was "Nike" and at the very end of the show they let the dog out of the crate and Cesar completely ignored it. It eventually gravitated toward Cesar and they were playing and he was petting him. Now Nike is a supposedly aloof dog according to his owner, I had never met the person before, and the dog just melted around him.
Secondly, the trainer of my obedience class, her dog is OTCH. Look it up if you don't know what it means. When her dog got her "OTCH" she was invited by the Dog Pysch Center of LA(Cesar's place) to come out when they met at the seminar. She did not bring her dog, but coming from a woman who spoke so highly of him and the dog psychology center, I take her word 100%. This is a woman who has a dog who has completed every possible obedience title there is on TWO dogs.
Of all the "dog psychologists"/trainers/guru's whatever you wanna call them out there, he is not one I have a problem with. The Monks of New Skete and their flip flopping, and their level of physicality, while I do not disagree it can be useful, I disagree with.
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Thats really great, i told you i don't send info to strangers, especially over the net. I still want to know where I sound so ignorant.
You can't photocopy or scan the CGC certificates, and the therapy dog certificates, of your dogs and BLACK OUT YOUR NAME? That is something to be proud of if its true.
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This is a link to one story:
http://poochmaster.blogspot.com/2006/05/cesar-milan-accused-sued-for-animal.html
I am looking for the other one. They may have settled, but i distinctly remember that there was a 2nd lawsuit or claim of similar situation that resulted in death of the dog.
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From your PM, regarding Cesar:
"He is incredible, no doubt, but he has also killed people's pits by leaving them unattended on treadmills on more than one occasion (one was a big NBC or CBS exec or something) and he has displayed other things that have troubled me. redman had a problem with a pitbull of his, so cesar took it, trained and then took it on an appearance on the jay leno show. The dog was extremely sweet, well behaved and kind. With a simple command, the dog was growling and looking menacingly at Leno, then he made another command and the dog went right back to its previous state. "
I have NEVER EVER heard that about the CBS/NBC exec. Please prove that. I ain't sayin it isn't true but I doubt it.
Also. Redman gave his pitbull to Cesar when he was a puppy so he wouldn't have to travel with it. He uses that pitbull "Daddy" for a ton of shows and brings him to any appearance local in the LA area. I have never heard anything of the sort about Daddy.
Cesar did a seminar for the Colonial Rottweiler Club about a year ago. Mostly all of my obedience school went. It was awesome and he spoke for like 3 hours. Someone had their Rottie there who was from another club, I believe his name was "Nike" and at the very end of the show they let the dog out of the crate and Cesar completely ignored it. It eventually gravitated toward Cesar and they were playing and he was petting him. Now Nike is a supposedly aloof dog according to his owner, I had never met the person before, and the dog just melted around him.
Secondly, the trainer of my obedience class, her dog is OTCH. Look it up if you don't know what it means. When her dog got her "OTCH" she was invited by the Dog Pysch Center of LA(Cesar's place) to come out when they met at the seminar. She did not bring her dog, but coming from a woman who spoke so highly of him and the dog psychology center, I take her word 100%. This is a woman who has a dog who has completed every possible obedience title there is on TWO dogs.
Of all the "dog psychologists"/trainers/guru's whatever you wanna call them out there, he is not one I have a problem with. The Monks of New Skete and their flip flopping, and their level of physicality, while I do not disagree it can be useful, I disagree with.
In terms of level of physicality (as i am not familar with the monks of new skete) is it more than cesar's tactic of exercising the crap outta the dog and establishing dominance (he says, if you spend 60 minutes with your pet, 45 should be exercise)?
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This is a link to one story:
http://poochmaster.blogspot.com/2006/05/cesar-milan-accused-sued-for-animal.html
I am looking for the other one. They may have settled, but i distinctly remember that there was a 2nd lawsuit or claim of similar situation that resulted in death of the dog.
From the sound of the story it explicity states it was the workers of the facility. Cesar himself didn't do it, although of course he is liable.
What was the outcome of the lawsuit?
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In terms of level of physicality (as i am not familar with the monks of new skete) is it more than cesar's tactic of exercising the crap outta the dog and establishing dominance (he says, if you spend 60 minutes with your pet, 45 should be exercise)?
No, people think Cesar is too physical because of the use of the hand to mimic a dog bite, and Cesar also advocates rolling.
The Monks of New Skete advocate scruffing and pops under the chin. I don't necessarily disagree with this but it really depends on the dog and the age of the dog. I'd never do either to a puppy, or even a dog well into his life. At least rolling a dog has a place in pack life.
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From the sound of the story it explicity states it was the workers of the facility. Cesar himself didn't do it, although of course he is liable.
What was the outcome of the lawsuit?
the lawsuit was settled i believe.
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the lawsuit was settled i believe.
And the outcome was?
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I dunno, i'm assuming the lady was awarded money and shut up so as to not affect future business and his show.
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I dunno, i'm assuming the lady was awarded money and shut up so as to not affect future business and his show.
Assumption is alot diff than fact. If you find out for sure let me know.
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Pitbulls are indeed dog agressive out of the womb unless they are socialized, this is a known fact. they instinctively know to go for the neck, the gameness only increases their ability to do damage. Unless you socialize a pit bull from a young age, it will most likely be very dog aggressive. You also don't have to teach a pit bull how to fight, they know how because its in their genetic makeup. i work with a pitbull rescue group, i work with the spca, i know my shit. You can chose to accept this or not. what we are dealing with is commonly referred to by experts as "prey drive," an instictive trait that was bred into bullies.
I disagree with that to a point.
The key is the temperment of the dog, correct socialization and it varies quite a bit from dog to dog and which "breed" of pitbull you are talking about---APBT vs AMSTAFF vs ABT vs Staffie vs the half a dozen other "pit bull" breeds. Considering only the APBT, I'd say they are a more "physical" breed than others when they are puppies. This physicalness is something that contributes to their use as a fighting dog, but doesn't dictate it. I really think there is a very strong degree of training/socialization involved with fighting dogs. I'll tell you why--and give you 4 examples, including two dogs that were very intimate in my own family.
I've spent nearly the last 15 years working with pitbull rescues across the country, from running one to doing what I do now as a consultant because my wife says I have to. A dogs ability to fight another dog is an innate behavior to a degree---all dogs are capable of showing aggression to other dogs, humans, or animals under certian conditons in certian situations----but even pitbulls as a breed have a large number of dogs that won't readily do it. The best example of this is the back yard street punk kids who steal peoples dogs out of their back yards to "fight them". I've seen, tried put back together, ended up watching die more than one pitbull---these are dogs that were without a doubt pure bred--who were ripped from limb to limb by a nonpitbull breed in fights like this or accidental encounters. That "innate" ability to fight isn't something that is genetic. The physical traits, the mental drive, the prey drive are and can be "enhanced" by humans to be put together to produce an extremely dog aggressive dog.
The converse of the example are the former "fighting" dogs I know of--including my own older female, who is very much a "game bred" dog, the dog aggressive male I had for years, and Kane who was somewhat of a legend in and around the neighborhood when I was in college ----who in the right household, with the right training, the right environment, did not fight with other dogs. I had what Id call a very dog aggressive male pit for several years, with 5 other dogs in my house. Fights were very rare, yet Teddy would flip out with dogs outside of my house. They key with him was being able to read his mindset and taking the time to prevent problems before they occured. I really do think the typical dog owning human is too lazy and too stupid to deal with a dog like that and as a result they end up putting the dogs in situations where bad things happen. Teddy was a great dog. He was also alot of work.
Finally, my grandmother took one of the dogs from our rescue when I was in veterinary school. This was an adult female who'd spent her entire life chained to a dog house being bred. She was a GREAT loving pet for my grandmother in her 70's. She also tolerated the other two dogs in my grandmothers house---including my aunts piece of shit Shihtzapoo monster. If there was ever a dog that should have been caused a dog fight, it was that thing. The dog that my grandmother adopted did not once attack, bite, or otherwise harm a dog she easily could have with reason. This is also a dog that did not have what anyone would think is a "good" or "normal" socialization period and had a pretty crappy life the first few years of her life, yet she was not dog aggressive in any way.
You're also missing the point of this. I'm not saying every dog is exactly the breed description, but there are factors at work that go down their genetic makeup that do indeed have a larger impact on their personality and behaviors than any amount of training, socialization or therapy.
I do agree with this. The problem is that people take breed descriptions as some sort of sacred scripture when they really are not. They are a description, a guideline, not a cut and dry THIS IS HOW THE BREED BEHAVES law. Each dog has its own individual personality that will dictate what their final behaviors are. A great example of this is a former patient of mine. This dog was one of the most dog aggressive, borderline human aggressive dogs I've ever seen. It had gone through behavior classes, it had been with multiple trainers, the owners loved this dog and would have done anything for it.... he bit me twice in the exam rooms.....he was a golden retriever. There is no way in hell I would have trusted that dog outside of the exam room without its owners holding it on a short leash.
The other problem with breed descriptions is the bias that people have with them. For whatever reason, humans tend to take their opinions on dogs and stand by that opinion---even if its completely warped and of base---and argue and argue and argue that they are correct, no matter how asanine, unfounded, and illogical what they are saying is. Its weird to me why dogs instigate this behavior in humans, but if you don't believe me, look through some of the threads on this board. Its there.
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In terms of level of physicality (as i am not familar with the monks of new skete) is it more than cesar's tactic of exercising the crap outta the dog and establishing dominance (he says, if you spend 60 minutes with your pet, 45 should be exercise)?
I'm a big, big fan of exercise for dogs, especially with dog who are having a hard time focusing because of too much pent up energy, but I have to say, some of the things I've heard/read about Cesars techniques tend to take the benefits of exercise to an extreme in my opinion.
The other problem is the pack order idea that so many humans seem to have a really hard time comprehending even though we ourselves do it. I think it goes back to locker room bullies in gradeschool.
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I do agree with this. The problem is that people take breed descriptions as some sort of sacred scripture when they really are not. They are a description, a guideline, not a cut and dry THIS IS HOW THE BREED BEHAVES law. Each dog has its own individual personality that will dictate what their final behaviors are. A great example of this is a former patient of mine. This dog was one of the most dog aggressive, borderline human aggressive dogs I've ever seen. It had gone through behavior classes, it had been with multiple trainers, the owners loved this dog and would have done anything for it.... he bit me twice in the exam rooms.....he was a golden retriever. There is no way in hell I would have trusted that dog outside of the exam room without its owners holding it on a short leash.
The other problem with breed descriptions is the bias that people have with them. For whatever reason, humans tend to take their opinions on dogs and stand by that opinion---even if its completely warped and of base---and argue and argue and argue that they are correct, no matter how asanine, unfounded, and illogical what they are saying is. Its weird to me why dogs instigate this behavior in humans, but if you don't believe me, look through some of the threads on this board. Its there.
What I was trying to say all along and I did many times is I do not believe in breed descriptions. I then explained myself and said because just because a dog is a beagle for example, does not mena you can't stop it from howling. Your golden retriever example was exactly what I am talking about. But that dog didn't come out of the womb like that, NO DOG DOES. That dog got that way during the socialization period somehow.
The littlest things can ruin a dog. A friend of mine told me a story where a friend of his who is a Vet got a pitbull puppy and trained it, took it to obedience school and did everything as it was growing. One day someone had their dog off the leash and the puppy was attacked, although not harmed, but he was rolled.
The dog became so dog aggressive the Vet elected to put it down. Why? I dunno ask me but it illustrates my point.
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I disagree with that to a point.
The key is the temperment of the dog, correct socialization and it varies quite a bit from dog to dog and which "breed" of pitbull you are talking about---APBT vs AMSTAFF vs ABT vs Staffie vs the half a dozen other "pit bull" breeds. Considering only the APBT, I'd say they are a more "physical" breed than others when they are puppies. This physicalness is something that contributes to their use as a fighting dog, but doesn't dictate it.
I understand where you're coming from, but what is your opinion on the info i posted from badrap.org? there is a lot of other information i have read out there that states the same thing as they are saying about the fact that its that "terrier drive" or "prey drive" dictates much of their innate dog aggression?
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I understand where you're coming from, but what is your opinion on the info i posted from badrap.org? there is a lot of other information i have read out there that states the same thing as they are saying about the fact that its that "terrier drive" or "prey drive" dictates much of their innate dog aggression?
Prey drive may instigate it, but prey drive is not what makes a pitbull what they are in the pit. At least not primarily. A good example of prey drive is a Jack Russell's willingless to hunt/kill small animals. Or you are walking your JR and a squirrel comes running out and it wants to go after this. Pitbulls have this same drive as terriers, but this is not why dogmen use them for fighting. It is because of gameness(their refusal to back down). While a Labrador might shy away from pain, pain infuriates a pitbull and makes them fight harder. This is the #1, #2 and #3 reasons why they are used in the pit. THAT is what is bred into them. Extreme dog aggressiveness is not a plus, they just have to be willing to fight. Once the fight begins, the dogmen want them to continue to fight and continue to fight hard. They are not bred by level of how dog aggressive they are. I don't know how many times I can explain that.
Honestly based on what you pasted from badrap, the key word is "if mismanaged". A Golden Retriever can be all types of aggressive if mismanaged, which Vet has proven.
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Prey drive may instigate it, but prey drive is not what makes a pitbull what they are in the pit. At least not primarily. A good example of prey drive is a Jack Russell's willingless to hunt/kill small animals. Or you are walking your JR and a squirrel comes running out and it wants to go after this. Pitbulls have this same drive as terriers, but this is not why dogmen use them for fighting. It is because of gameness(their refusal to back down). While a Labrador might shy away from pain, pain infuriates a pitbull and makes them fight harder. This is the #1, #2 and #3 reasons why they are used in the pit. THAT is what is bred into them. Extreme dog aggressiveness is not a plus, they just have to be willing to fight. Once the fight begins, the dogmen want them to continue to fight and continue to fight hard. They are not bred by level of how dog aggressive they are. I don't know how many times I can explain that.
Honestly based on what you pasted from badrap, the key word is "if mismanaged". A Golden Retriever can be all types of aggressive if mismanaged, which Vet has proven.
Yeah... i've been attacked by a 90 lbs golden, not fun. thankfully he didn't get any bites in, but he was lunging and snapping pretty hard. As for your arguement i see your point, but i don't agree. The prey drive is why we have to put so many pit bulls down, because they were never socialized, regardless of being fought and will lunge and snarl and go for the neck of other dogs (and cats) they're around. That animal aggression has nothing to do with gameness. the dog aggression has everything to do with prey drive and the gameness only allows them to do more damage. Many of these dogs were never fought, but come to us and are sweethearts with people, well behaved and well mannered but go fucking crazy around dogs and cats. will every pit be this way? no, not at all. Will a large enough portion we encounter be like this to the point where we have to take xtra precautions? you better believe it. Its sad, because you can't adopt out animal aggressive animals (this is where i believe federal funding should come in and save these dogs for k9 units, search dogs etc... but thats a whole nother arguement) because most people can't handle a pit bull on a leash around other dogs, nor are they smart enough to take all of the necessary precautions to ensure an incident never occurs (How was I to know he would go thru a screen at a dog???... says the owner of the dog who just killed a neighbors dog or cat). Prey drive makes them animal aggressive to begin with, gameness makes them unrelenting.
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Yeah... i've been attacked by a 90 lbs golden, not fun. thankfully he didn't get any bites in, but he was lunging and snapping pretty hard. As for your arguement i see your point, but i don't agree. The prey drive is why we have to put so many pit bulls down, because they were never socialized, regardless of being fought and will lunge and snarl and go for the neck of other dogs (and cats) they're around. That animal aggression has nothing to do with gameness. the dog aggression has everything to do with prey drive and the gameness only allows them to do more damage. Many of these dogs were never fought, but come to us and are sweethearts with people, well behaved and well mannered but go fucking crazy around dogs and cats. will every pit be this way? no, not at all. Will a large enough portion we encounter be like this to the point where we have to take xtra precautions? you better believe it. Its sad, because you can't adopt out animal aggressive animals (this is where i believe federal funding should come in and save these dogs for k9 units, search dogs etc... but thats a whole nother arguement) because most people can't handle a pit bull on a leash around other dogs, nor are they smart enough to take all of the necessary precautions to ensure an incident never occurs (How was I to know he would go thru a screen at a dog???... says the owner of the dog who just killed a neighbors dog or cat). Prey drive makes them animal aggressive to begin with, gameness makes them unrelenting.
Prey drive =\= dog aggression.
Schutzhund dogs have equal levels of prey/defense and both are very high, but balanced. Everything is done off leash. None of them go running off attacking all the other Shepherds, Rottweilers and Malinois' that there are there.
Ask vet if you don't believe me.
Once again for the slower people...Prey drive does NOT equal dog aggression. Dog aggresion = dog aggresion.
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Dog aggression would therefore be a byproduct of prey drive. Prey drive is in the genetic makeup of the dogs. When you see a dog that hasn't been socialized and is extremely dog aggressive but has never been trained to fight (and is lunging at another dog), what do you account for that?
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Prey drive =\= dog aggression.
Schutzhund dogs have equal levels of prey/defense and both are very high, but balanced. Everything is done off leash. None of them go running off attacking all the other Shepherds, Rottweilers and Malinois' that there are there.
Ask vet if you don't believe me.
Once again for the slower people...Prey drive does NOT equal dog aggression. Dog aggresion = dog aggresion.
I really think there is an overemphasis placed on "prey" drive in pitbulls. The media has latched onto this term and those who really don't know shit about dog behavior like to use it because it give the image of the dogs being tougher. Think about it.."prey" drive. That dog is a KILLER. It has prey drive. In reality, prey drive is the willinness of a dog to pursue prey for hunting purposes (with the ultimate goal of eating in its basic definition). Its not about not giving up in a fight.
If you believe in the "Drive" idea of dog motivation, dogs have three basic "drives": territory, prey, and reproduction. Its a combination of these three that make a dog dog aggressive, not an individual specific drive. I know of several hounds (My parents used to raise black and tans and redbones) with very, very strong prey drives----yet these dogs hunt in a pack with each other. When I was a kid, we ran hounds most nights out of the year to keep them in shape for raccoon hunting. Some of these hounds prey drives will blow a typical APBT out of the water. These are dogs I've seen literally run the pads off their feet. There is no denying their drive.
That said, come the time a bitch was in heat, we'd have problems with the males fighting with each other. Why? Because horniness overrides common sense. These dogs reproductive drives led to confrontation.
We also had some problems with introducing new dogs to the pack from time to time. Why? because that pack of hounds had established their individual territories and as a result were defending their territories to an intruder.
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What I was trying to say all along and I did many times is I do not believe in breed descriptions. I then explained myself and said because just because a dog is a beagle for example, does not mena you can't stop it from howling. Your golden retriever example was exactly what I am talking about. But that dog didn't come out of the womb like that, NO DOG DOES. That dog got that way during the socialization period somehow.
The littlest things can ruin a dog. A friend of mine told me a story where a friend of his who is a Vet got a pitbull puppy and trained it, took it to obedience school and did everything as it was growing. One day someone had their dog off the leash and the puppy was attacked, although not harmed, but he was rolled.
The dog became so dog aggressive the Vet elected to put it down. Why? I dunno ask me but it illustrates my point.
Thats weird. There was something else going on with that dog. Did they rule out medical causes?
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Dog aggression would therefore be a byproduct of prey drive. Prey drive is in the genetic makeup of the dogs. When you see a dog that hasn't been socialized and is extremely dog aggressive but has never been trained to fight (and is lunging at another dog), what do you account for that?
It is called AGGRESSION
My ex gf had a miniature schnauzer who would try to attack any small furry animal it saw...that wasn't a dog. It also would hunt mice when the weather changed and it had them. I mean like fucking stalk them, it was ALL about killing mice. It'd go after birds in the yard, etc. Crazy high prey drive.
Yet from the day my dog was 11 weeks old and every other dog I have seen it around, it is as submissive as can be.
For the third time for an idiot whom I cannot believe owns a pitbull.
PREY DRIVE =\= DOG AGGRESSION.
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Thats weird. There was something else going on with that dog. Did they rule out medical causes?
No clue it was just conveyed to me through a friend.
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It is called AGGRESSION
My ex gf had a miniature schnauzer who would try to attack any small furry animal it saw...that wasn't a dog. It also would hunt mice when the weather changed and it had them. I mean like fucking stalk them, it was ALL about killing mice. It'd go after birds in the yard, etc. Crazy high prey drive.
Yet from the day my dog was 11 weeks old and every other dog I have seen it around, it is as submissive as can be.
For the third time for an idiot whom I cannot believe owns a pitbull.
PREY DRIVE =\= DOG AGGRESSION.
The other thing you need to consider is the intertwining of the three drives (imagine three circles overlapping in the center. Prey drive will overlap with territory drive, which will overlap with reproductive drive. Its relatively rare that any one individual drive leads to aggressive behavior from one dog to the other. You have to consider the underlying motivation of the animal. Is it hungry (killing a rabbit to eat)? Is it defending its territory (dog barking at a stranger at the door)? Is it defending a female in its yard (territory + reproductive)? Is it trying to win a female on neutral ground (reproductive)?
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No clue it was just conveyed to me through a friend.
From what you've said, there is more to that story than we know.
Here's my firm belief on any animal---be it dog, cat, bird, big cat, elephant. Animals don't "just snap". There is a motivating force behind the behavior of the animal. The problem comes in figuring out what that force is. If you can figure it out, you can anticipate what is going ot happen, and from there take steps to anticipate problems before they happen.
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The other thing you need to consider is the intertwining of the three drives (imagine three circles overlapping in the center. Prey drive will overlap with territory drive, which will overlap with reproductive drive. Its rare that any one individual drive leads to aggressive behavior from one dog to the other. You have to consider the underlying motivation of the animal. Is it hungry (killing a rabbit to eat)? Is it defending its territory (dog barking at a stranger at the door)? Is it defending a female in its yard (territory + reproductive)? Is it trying to win a female on neutral ground (reproductive)?
I understand all this and the mixing of drives.
My problem with TrapsMcLats is he says that Prey Drive is what makes pitbulls aggressive. That is a statement that is false, ignorant and sad. He does not separate dog aggression from any other drive. Also, he believes that pitbulls are aggressive from the moment they take their first breath.
All things that a pitbull owner should know and its shocking and sad he doesn't.
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PS- From all Traps misinformation is what makes it so obvious that if he does even own two pitbulls...he works with no organization involving pitbulls or any dog, he has no titled pitbulls with a CGC, and he has no therapy dogs.
I asked him to prove it. He refuses.
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I understand all this and the mixing of drives.
My problem with TrapsMcLats is he says that Prey Drive is what makes pitbulls aggressive. That is a statement that is false, ignorant and sad. He does not separate dog aggression from any other drive. Also, he believes that pitbulls are aggressive from the moment they take their first breath.
All things that a pitbull owner should know and its shocking and sad he doesn't.
Nah, rather than pursecute, I think its more important to try to see where Traps got that information from and why he thinks what he's posting. Is it misunderstanding of information (us misunderstanding him or him misunderstanding what he's heard/read) or is it misinformation. Once you figure out the source, correct that. That'll solve the problems for pitbulls, not persecuting Traps.
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PS- From all Traps misinformation is what makes it so obvious that if he does even own two pitbulls...he works with no organization involving pitbulls or any dog, he has no titled pitbulls with a CGC, and he has no therapy dogs.
I asked him to prove it. He refuses.
I know quite a few pitbull owners who state exactly what Traps posted. I think its basically an attempt to simplify something that is in all actuality a very complex multifactorial behavior.
I don't think much was proven other than his reluctance to post up the CGC certificate. I'm not sure where the reluctance is coming from, a simple picture would stop alot of the questions, but its his perogative.
Again, like I posted earlier, for whatever reason, humans tend to take their opinions on dogs and stand by that opinion---even if its completely warped and of base---and argue and argue and argue that they are correct, no matter how asanine, unfounded, and illogical what they are saying is. I don't know why dogs bring that out in people, but they do.
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Nah, rather than pursecute, I think its more important to try to see where Traps got that information from and why he thinks what he's posting. Is it misunderstanding of information or is it misinformation. Once you figure out the source, correct that. That'll solve the problems for pitbulls, not persecuting Traps.
I totally agree with you. The problem is, no one will believe what I say because of I am no one on the internet. I also hate ignorance so I am quite testy with people like that, heh.
At least when you say something or back up what I say partially, people believe you because you are a Veterinarian. Sadly, I am sure that you can agree most vets know nothing or not much about behavior. It just so happens you do.
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I totally agree with you. The problem is, no one will believe what I say because of I am no one on the internet. I also hate ignorance so I am quite testy with people like that, heh.
At least when you say something or back up what I say partially, people believe you because you are a Veterinarian. Sadly, I am sure that you can agree most vets know nothing or not much about behavior. It just so happens you do.
There are veterinarians out there who don't know jack shit about dog (or any other animal) behavior. Just like there are veterinarians who know nothing about exotics and as a result there is no way in hell I'd tell someone to take their bird to them.
The thing is, a large part of my job is understanding and anticipating normal animal behavior. Because of that, i've had to learn what I know about a variety of species. Combine that with a back ground in mental health medicine, simple obserational skills and the experiences I've had with rescues and you can see where i'm coming from. I'm not a behavior expert by any means.
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There are veterinarians out there who don't know jack shit about dog (or any other animal) behavior. Just like there are veterinarians who know nothing about exotics and as a result there is no way in hell I'd tell someone to take their bird to them.
The thing is, a large part of my job is understanding and anticipating normal animal behavior. Because of that, i've had to learn what I know about a variety of species. Combine that with a back ground in mental health medicine, simple obserational skills and the experiences I've had with rescues and you can see where i'm coming from. I'm not a behavior expert by any means.
My own vet really doesn't know much about behavior, well not as much as I do. I was trying to pick his brain last night(brought Plato in because he chipped a nail up outside and it was bothering him, they trimmed it and cleaned it) about how Plato has changed since he was neutered, personality wise. He really seemed dumbfounded and were just conversing about it. I mean he gave me ideas on why and stuff, but still, not what I was looking for. But, I go to him for medical reasons and hes great with Plato so I like him alot. Behavior expertise is not an issue, I know my shit.
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Aggression can also be the result of neural pathway damage done by vaccines. This can cause a dog's temperament/behavior to change.
To quote Dr. Jean Dodds (including typos):
Dr. Dodds, could you comment on any connection between puppy
vaccinations and fear periods?
Thank you very much, XXXX
Dear XXXX: Any "jolt" or shock" to a youngster's body ---including the
immune system can affect neural pathways and behavior. This would be
especiallt true of combination vaccines and esecially rabies vaccine.
Jean
Dr. Dodds,
My question is about vaccines and the immune system shut down.
How long is the immune system in shut down mode after a vaccination?
Some say 10 days some say 45 days. I can't think of a person more
qualified to answer that question than yourself. I no longer vax my dogs, but everybody else in the neighborhood does. So the correct information on immune system shut down would be very valuable to those that still poke.
Thank you so much for again making yourself available to us.
Dear XXX: Both answers are correct -- the first 10-14 days is when the maximum immune reactive/suppressive effect occurs, but this can continue -- especially in dogs or cats with genetic predisposition to react adversely -- for up to 45 days. For vaccine like rabies, hoever, there's anecdotal evidence that the demyelinating effects of the rabies miasm can last several months [4-6 ] or even longer. Jean
Maybe that is the answer why some pets seem to "snap" for no apparent reason?
Just another reason to take very seriously the subject of over vaccination. Our vaccination happy ways could have caused people injuries or even their lives, not to mention the pets that may have lost theirs because they became a danger through no fault of their own.
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I guess its possible Flower. I never heard that but it makes sense.
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Aggression can also be the result of neural pathway damage done by vaccines. This can cause a dog's temperament/behavior to change.
To quote Dr. Jean Dodds (including typos):
Dr. Dodds, could you comment on any connection between puppy
vaccinations and fear periods?
Thank you very much, XXXX
Dear XXXX: Any "jolt" or shock" to a youngster's body ---including the
immune system can affect neural pathways and behavior. This would be
especiallt true of combination vaccines and esecially rabies vaccine.
Jean
Dr. Dodds,
My question is about vaccines and the immune system shut down.
How long is the immune system in shut down mode after a vaccination?
Some say 10 days some say 45 days. I can't think of a person more
qualified to answer that question than yourself. I no longer vax my dogs, but everybody else in the neighborhood does. So the correct information on immune system shut down would be very valuable to those that still poke.
Thank you so much for again making yourself available to us.
Dear XXX: Both answers are correct -- the first 10-14 days is when the maximum immune reactive/suppressive effect occurs, but this can continue -- especially in dogs or cats with genetic predisposition to react adversely -- for up to 45 days. For vaccine like rabies, hoever, there's anecdotal evidence that the demyelinating effects of the rabies miasm can last several months [4-6 ] or even longer. Jean
Maybe that is the answer why some pets seem to "snap" for no apparent reason?
Just another reason to take very seriously the subject of over vaccination. Our vaccination happy ways could have caused people injuries or even their lives, not to mention the pets that may have lost theirs because they became a danger through no fault of their own.
Thats from way, way out in left field if you ask me. Way out there.
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I am not saying everything else isn't a possibility, but it is of MY opinion and many others that the fact that pit bulls are dog aggressive comes from their genes and breed standards. i don't think its a media thing, nor do i believe its jsut a stigma attached to pit bulls. If a dog is bred to be aggressive towards other animals, fight other animals, have an incredible amount of stamina and determination (gameness... which was also bred for when bull and bear baiting) and incredible pain tolerance... then why is it ignorant to believe that a dog has the propensity to be aggressive towards animals from birth? We can say that this is true of any dog, if you keep a labrador unsocialized it will have a high chance of bein dog aggessive, but i don't believe the chances would be nearly as high as a pits because pits were bred to fight other dogs and animals. It would also be unwise to assume that a pit wouldn't be dog aggessive... this time because of the social stigma attached to them. If your pit attacks a dog, your pit would be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. if your german sheperd did the same, it would not be. This is where a social stigma is a problem. If you are a pit owner you have to be aware of the fact that your dog can do an extreme amount of damage in a short period of time to another dog, which is why from day one you have to do everything possible to socialize your dog. The original breed ideals of a pit bull were:
A complete lack of aggression towards humans (those that showed any aggression were destroyed)
High prey drive (used in hunting and fighting)
gameness (for the bull baiting and bear baiting, hunting and fighting)
Pain Tolerance (for everything they are usd for)
Dog aggression and animal aggression (the dogs that acted like they wanted to fight were bred with other dogs that shared this quality, a derivative of prey drive and a factor in "gameness")
It might not be the only reason for dog aggression, but it would be foolish to assume that those factors don't play a huge part in why a pit is dog aggressive. For me, this is akin to saying that you have to teach a retriever to retrieve or a herder to herd.
this is a great book that really goes into the detailed history and development of the breed and talks about all factors involved. One of the best pit books i have ever read:
http://www.amazon.com/American-Terrier-Handbook-Barrons-Handbooks/dp/0764112333/ref=pd_bbs_6?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199555133&sr=8-6
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Is it misunderstanding of information (us misunderstanding him or him misunderstanding what he's heard/read) or is it misinformation.
Well, i do not believe that when a puppy pit is walking around its aggressive towards other dogs. I think i should have said that a pitbull puppy when grown up, if not socialized properly, will have an extremely high chance of being dog aggressive even if it is otherwise raised 100% correctly; loving owner, discipline, training, diet, housing etc... That is where i think genes play a large part and nothing else. My mistake is speaking in generalizations rather than citing exact situations and circumstances.
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Well, i do not believe that when a puppy pit is walking around its aggressive towards other dogs. I think i should have said that a pitbull puppy when grown up, if not socialized properly, will have an extremely high chance of being dog aggressive even if it is otherwise raised 100% correctly; loving owner, discipline, training, diet, housing etc... That is where i think genes play a large part and nothing else. My mistake is speaking in generalizations rather than citing exact situations and circumstances.
Thats why i said understand where you are coming from, not immediately jump your shit.
Heres how I see pitbulls, and in my mind, its a much more appropriate way because it doesn't allow some of the generalizations that seem to always happen.... I see them as a physical breed. This means high energy, high need for physical activity, be it rough play, be it running with the owner or on a treadmill or something else. They have been selected to be physical.
Now take that and channel it in the wrong direction and you very well may see problems.
Does that make sense? .
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Thats why i said understand where you are coming from, not immediately jump your shit.
Heres how I see pitbulls, and in my mind, its a much more appropriate way because it doesn't allow some of the generalizations that seem to always happen.... I see them as a physical breed. This means high energy, high need for physical activity, be it rough play, be it running with the owner or on a treadmill or something else. They have been selected to be physical.
Now take that and channel it in the wrong direction and you very well may see problems.
Does that make sense? .
That makes perfect sense and takes into account their genes and environment (owners, training etc). As long as you see where i am coming from as opposed to ripping me for being "ignorant" like some people... Everyone is entitled to their belief system, but i think that if you own a pit bull, you have to know their breeding background and you cant just assume your dog or a certain dog will be the exception.
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Thats from way, way out in left field if you ask me. Way out there.
If you want to totally discount the research that Dr. Dodds and Schultz have done in that field, EXPERTS in that field, RESPECTED experts, be my guest. I am not saying every behavior problem is related to vaccines, but to totally discount the connection when a person has a dog that has a definite behavior or temperament change and vaccines were the only thing that had been introduced is sticking your head in the sand.
And no offense, but you are not exactly that knowledgeable in that field, you thought that the parvo vaccine didn't shed into the environment making it possible for animals to get "vaccinated" by interacting with recently vaccinated animals or their feces and you were wrong on that.
You might want to rethink that "way, way out there" and see what is going on in scientific research.
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If you want to totally discount the research that Dr. Dodds and Schultz have done in that field, EXPERTS in that field, RESPECTED experts, be my guest. I am not saying every behavior problem is related to vaccines, but to totally discount the connection when a person has a dog that has a definite behavior or temperament change and vaccines were the only thing that had been introduced is sticking your head in the sand.
And no offense, but you are not exactly that knowledgeable in that field, you thought that the parvo vaccine didn't shed into the environment making it possible for animals to get "vaccinated" by interacting with recently vaccinated animals or their feces and you were wrong on that.
You might want to rethink that "way, way out there" and see what is going on in scientific research.
All hail flower.....
MaStEr Of tHE UniVeRSe
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Wow...reading through this stuff can give someone a headache.
Here's a couple things I know from all the dogs I've ever had.
One...dogs are breed for temperament. Period. No one (at least a reputable & smart breeder) will not ruin the line to breed with poor genes & poor temperament to make money.
Two...some are bred for a certain aspect. Example....Labradors are bred for hunting. Not only do they have excellent sniffers....most have the natural instinct of retrieving & tracking animals. Almost all I've ever had or seen....love the water & are excellent swimmers for water fowl hunting which make them extremely versatile hunting partners. I love our Rottie to death...but he hates the water & could care a less about sniffing down a rabbits path that's 1 hour old. Granted....I have never shown him the way of sniffing down a Rabbit....but almost all Labs I've ever had....I've never had to show them. It's a natural instinct. Honestly, I don't know what our Rottie's natural instinct is except to be goofy, play, & show affection. All personalities in dogs are different from breed to breed, from litter to litter, from owner to owner.
Third.....all of the dogs I've ever had are all DIFFERENT & have different personalities. At one time I had 4 Labs growing up. My one (Sam) for a lab was very protective & not friendly to other people. Doesn't sound like breed standards to me....but she sure could hunt. One thing that is the same with all dogs that I've ever had is "ME". I strongly believe that just like kids.....dogs are different because how they are raised. What they are allowed to get away with....how they are rewarded....how they are integrated in the household....what position they hold in the house..etc.. Show me a demanding, dominating, spoiled child....& I'll show a problem waiting to happen.
I believe all dogs can be aggressive. Some may be more prone especially with the name "Terrier" attached to the breed. But a 20 pound Rat Terrier grabbing ahold of your leg is not going to make the news like a 120 pound Rottie because of the damage thats going to be inflicted.
I think everyone is making valid points....just respect others opinions & disagree without the name calling.
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Diego doesn't like the water? Plato loves the water, weird. Like even the rain and stuff? And I totally agree that most Rottie's I have seen are frigging goofballs. When Plato wants attention sometimes he will roll completely over on his back, like spread eagle and stare at me until I laugh. It is amazing.
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If you want to totally discount the research that Dr. Dodds and Schultz have done in that field, EXPERTS in that field, RESPECTED experts, be my guest. I am not saying every behavior problem is related to vaccines, but to totally discount the connection when a person has a dog that has a definite behavior or temperament change and vaccines were the only thing that had been introduced is sticking your head in the sand.
And no offense, but you are not exactly that knowledgeable in that field, you thought that the parvo vaccine didn't shed into the environment making it possible for animals to get "vaccinated" by interacting with recently vaccinated animals or their feces and you were wrong on that.
You might want to rethink that "way, way out there" and see what is going on in scientific research.
You know Flower, I think you do post useful information in that it makes people think, but I also think some of what you post is pure bullshit clouded by your agenda against medicine.
For your vaccination affecting behavior ideas----I've worked with more than one bite case problem dog in Missouri when I worked with animal control and in NYC where i did low budget vet care out of pet stores as a side job all over the New York City metropolitan area. In that job I dealt with way more than I care to recall dogs who were being vaccinated on an "emergency" basis because the dog had bitten someone and the owner was trying to avoid a fine. I know without a doubt that they had never once encountered a vaccination before I saw them and some of them were pretty damned aggressive. Why was that? They sure as hell didn't have an evil vaccine eating away at their brains. They'd never been exposed to one.
Physiologically, demylination will cause extracerebral signs initially then more central signs. Think about the structure of the CNS. A prime example of this in humans is MS--which causes demylenation. Humans do not experience behavior changes other than fatigue until they have significantly advanced disease, and those that do, often have behavioral changes secondary to loss of function--ie depression, anxiety, etc. I find it very, very hard to believe that if the vaccination has this universal effect on nerves you will not have concurrent neurological signs. Thats why i said it was from far out in left field. Where are the neurological signs/loss of function/loss of cognition?
I'm not trying to discredit Dr. Dodds. That said, she herself recommends vaccinating dogs. I did some reading after our initial vaccine discussion and what I've learned is that there are many, many people with person agendas who are warping what she says.
Below is a link to a website with her actual protocol: http://www.doglogic.com/Dr.Dodd-VaccineSchedule2005.doc (http://www.doglogic.com/Dr.Dodd-VaccineSchedule2005.doc) I tried to paste it here, but I couldn't get it to work. I also found her recommendations for other vaccinations which were:
I use only killed 3 year rabies vaccine for adults and give it separated from other vaccines by 3-4 weeks. In some states, they may be able to give titer test result in lieu of booster.
I do NOT use Bordetella, corona virus, leptospirosis or Lyme vaccines unless these diseases are endemic in the local area or a specific kennel. Futhermore, the currently licensed leptospira bacterins do not contain the serovars causing the majority of clinical leptospirosis today.
I do NOT recommend vaccinating bitches during estrus, pregnancy or lactation
Its pretty damned funny to me how warped these words are in some minds on the internet---even yours Flower. Dodds is not saying "DO NOT VACCINATE". She says vaccinate based on risk assessment and then measure titers as indicated and if titers indicate, revaccinate. Look back at that thread from last spring when you tried to jump on my ass about vaccinations. I think I said pretty much the same thing back then: Vaccinate based on risk assessment.
As far as the parvo vaccine, I'm still waiting for you to produce scientific proof of virulent (meaning they are capable of causing disease in other animals) viral particles shedding. I haven't seen any as of yet. There has been identification of vaccine, deactivated virus in very small numbers immediately after administration of some vaccinations, but nothing I'm aware of that says the virulent---meaning capable of causing disease---is being shed. As a matter of fact, the text often quoted on the antivaccine sites is Greene's Infectious Disease, which states: [parvo viral] shedding following natural infection lasts a maximum of 7 to 10 days. Because the vaccine is just an attenuated virus, shedding post vaccination is assumed to be the same.
Everything else is anecdotal conjecture. If you can produce scientific proof, then please do.
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Let's see Vet, I NEVER said, and in fact made a point of saying that I didn't believe every aggression or behavior problem was a result of vaccines, but that it should be thrown into the possibilities when looking into why a dog "snaps" or suddenly changes behavior. Over vaccinating may certainly be a cause or something to consider with the dog, even if it is only considered that a person doesn't further vaccinate a dog with issues in hopes to not exacerbate the problem.
Nor did I say Dodds said not to vaccinate, nor did I say not to vaccinate, I said OVERVACCINATING:
Just another reason to take very seriously the subject of over vaccination.
And I never said that the parvo vaccinations shed disease into the environment but that they are capable of VACCINATING animals that come into contact with the vaccine shedding dog or feces.
You have a lot of anecdotal opinions on topics, please don't twist or exaggerate what I said to fit your agenda. I found a couple psychological (human) references in studies and articles with demylination and behavior changes in people. It really is not that far out there, especially if you consider that just like with people, some dogs may have more of a reaction to vaccines than others. Again, it IS something to consider.
This really was a fine example of you twisting words and you yourself using anecdotal opinion, not to mention pretty irrelevant to what I DID say (not what you portrayed me as saying)!! LOL ;D:
I know without a doubt that they had never once encountered a vaccination before I saw them and some of them were pretty damned aggressive. Why was that? They sure as hell didn't have an evil vaccine eating away at their brains. They'd never been exposed to one.
Again, I will trust Dodds and Schultz who have worked for years in this field, hands on, and are respected, and who also are donating their time for at least the next 5 years to the Rabies Vaccine Challenge, over your narrow minded thinking. You can not say that they don't have a clue can you? Why would they volunteer that undertaking in the hopes of getting the 3year rabies vaccination pushed out to a longer period if they did not think that their was an important reason too? Why not just leave it at the 3years if vaccines are so harmless? It used to be every year, so three years was a definite improvement, must be all that anecdotal stuff they have come across in all their years in research, huh? ::) Maybe you should take some time when you get a chance, and look at what is going on in the veterinary world. A lot of respected people are devoting a lot of time and energy to all this "anecdotal" stuff.
Copied from a post of mine in reply to you on the Vaccine thread:
Occurrence of severe gastroenteritis in pups after canine parvovirus vaccine administration: A clinical and laboratory diagnostic dilemma
Nicola DecaroCorresponding Author Contact Information, a, E-mail The Corresponding Author, Costantina Desarioa, Gabriella Eliaa, Marco Campoloa, Alessio Lorussoa, Viviana Maria, Vito Martellaa and Canio Buonavogliaa
aDepartment of Animal Health and Well-being, Faculty of Veterinary Medicine of Bari, Strada per Casamassima Km 3, 70010 Valenzano, Bari, Italy
Received 10 August 2006; revised 22 September 2006; accepted 12 October 2006. Available online 25 October 2006.
Abstract
A total of 29 faecal samples collected from dogs with diarrhoea following canine parvovirus (CPV) vaccination were tested by minor groove binder (MGB) probe assays for discrimination between CPV vaccine and field strains and by diagnostic tests for detection of other canine pathogens. Fifteen samples tested positive only for CPV field strains; however, both vaccine and field strains were detected in three samples. Eleven samples were found to contain only the vaccine strain, although eight of them tested positive for other pathogens of dogs. Only three samples were found to contain the vaccine strain without evidence of canine pathogens. The present study confirms that most cases of parvovirus-like disease occurring shortly after vaccination are related to infection with field strains of canine parvovirus type 2 (CPV-2) rather than to reversion to virulence of the modified live virus contained in the vaccine.
This abstract appears to confirm shedding, along with your theory that the vaccinated parvo puppy did not get it from the vaccine, but was more susceptible to it because he was recently vaccinated.
From Dr. Dodds:
From The Immune System and Disease Resistance, a paper by DR W Jean Dodds, DVM
" A recent examination of the risks posed by MLV vaccines concluded that they are intrinsically more hazardous than inactivated products. The residual virulence and environmental contamination resulting from the shedding of vaccine virus is a serious concern."
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http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1648&articleid=962
Shedding of vaccine agent
Vaccine virus may be found in the nasal secretions of dogs vaccinated intranasally. In addition, vaccine parvovirus is shed in the feces of vaccinated dogs, canine adenovirus-1 can be shed in the urine, and canine adenovirus-2 can be found in nasal secretions. These viruses are the vaccine forms of the virus; they do NOT revert back to the disease-causing strains.
---------
The Cornell Feline Health Center
College of Veterinary Medicine, Cornell University
& The American Association of Feline Practitioners
and the Academy of Feline Medicine Advisory Panel on Feline Vaccines
A second type of vaccine is the modified live-virus (MLV) vaccine (also referred to as an attenuated vaccine), which contains viruses that have been altered by various techniques, so that they no longer produce clinical disease. Viruses in these vaccines can replicate within the host and stimulate a rapid and excellent immune response. In some cases, vaccine virus may be shed from the vaccinated cat to infect other cats that may come in contact with the vaccinated cat. MLV vaccines should not be administered to pregnant cats.
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LOL!!!!!!!! ;D
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Let's see Vet, I NEVER said, and in fact made a point of saying that I didn't believe every aggression or behavior problem was a result of vaccines, but that it should be thrown into the possibilities when looking into why a dog "snaps" or suddenly changes behavior. Over vaccinating may certainly be a cause or something to consider with the dog, even if it is only considered that a person doesn't further vaccinate a dog with issues in hopes to not exacerbate the problem.
Nor did I say Dodds said not to vaccinate, nor did I say not to vaccinate, I said OVERVACCINATING:
No you didn't. You jump in against every vaccination (and commercial dog food) every chance you get. And then when you are called on it, you back a way real quick and try to claim that isn't what you said. We've had this almost exact same argument before. You are repeating yourself. Thats were I get that you have an agenda. You remind me of a control freak fundamentalist Christian (or Muslim, either or) who is convinced the entire world is going to hell unless they practice their religion the exact way you say they have to.
And I never said that the parvo vaccinations shed disease into the environment but that they are capable of VACCINATING animals that come into contact with the vaccine shedding dog or feces.
Bullshit. If the virus shed into the environment is capable of VACCINATING an animal, then it has to be capable of INFECTING that animal. Again, we've argued about this before. Stop and think about Parvo for a minute. If you have an animal which recieves a parvo vaccine via injection----remember the normal viral pathway is fecal-oral, meaning that they have to EAT viral particles which then populate the intestine the following has to happen:
1: these vaccine associated viral particles have to move to the intestine through the blood stream
2: they have to cross from the blood vessels into he mucosal lining of the intestine (getting past mucosal immune defense mechanisms--which wil work both ways)
3: once in the intestine, they populate the villi of the intestinal lining
4: they must reproduce
5: they must be shed out of the intestine in the feces
6: a dog has to come into contact with viral particles and ingest them Orally
Now for this VACCINATION claim you are making to happen.
7: once ingested the viral particles have to set up shop in the intestinal villi.
8: they must reproduce
9: they must get past intestinal defense mechanisms
10: they create a viremic state in the newly infected animal, where they will affect other parts of the immune system
11: this dog now has have an appropriate immune response to fight off the INFECTION----they've got a virus that is in their body reproducing, causing an immune response. Thats an infection. There is no two ways about it.
Now don't get me wrong, I don't think its impossible, but its a multistep process that to me seems a bit far fetched. What you are spouting doesn't seem to me to take into any consideration the physiology of the virus interaction with the animal. Its as if there is this magical happening when a dog looks at another dog who's been vaccinated. its not, its a multistep process.
You have a lot of anecdotal opinions on topics, please don't twist or exaggerate what I said to fit your agenda. I found a couple psychological (human) references in studies and articles with demylination and behavior changes in people. It really is not that far out there, especially if you consider that just like with people, some dogs may have more of a reaction to vaccines than others. Again, it IS something to consider.[/color]
This really was a fine example of you twisting words and you yourself using anecdotal opinion, not to mention pretty irrelevant to what I DID say (not what you portrayed me as saying)!! LOL ;D:
I did? Where are your references if you found them? Like I said before, MS is probably the most well known demylenation disease of humans. They do have psychological changes, but it occurs after loss of peripheral nerve function---and like i said, often occurs secondarily as loss of function. You need to consider the function of myelin---which i am beginning to think you don't have a clue as to what it does. Myelin acts as an "insulation" for nerve fibers. Nerves as they demylinate, will conduct impulses slower, but they will still conduct impulses. As the disease causing demylination advances, it will cause loss of peripheral function first----because these distant nerves have the furthest to conduct and thus are most likely to be disrupted. Central function loss from demylination is a later occurance. If you have a dog with a significant demylination disease process, I doubt it seriously if you'd see loss of central function---ie a major change in behavior, without seeing loss of peripheral sensation---ie toe dragging, ataxia, loss of pain sensation during a physical exam, etc. It just doesn't make sense to phsyiologically.
Again, I will trust Dodds and Schultz who have worked for years in this field, hands on, and are respected, and who also are donating their time for at least the next 5 years to the Rabies Vaccine Challenge, over your narrow minded thinking. You can not say that they don't have a clue can you? Why would they volunteer that undertaking in the hopes of getting the 3year rabies vaccination pushed out to a longer period if they did not think that their was an important reason too? Why not just leave it at the 3years if vaccines are so harmless? It used to be every year, so three years was a definite improvement, must be all that anecdotal stuff they have come across in all their years in research, huh? ::) Maybe you should take some time when you get a chance, and look at what is going on in the veterinary world. A lot of respected people are devoting a lot of time and energy to all this "anecdotal" stuff.
Honey, you make the mistake in that I really care what you think. Like I said before, you are a good member for this board in my opinion because you make people think. I personally don't like your overwhelm with poor references to prove your point game that you play. No where have I said Dodds wasn't doing research that didn't need to be done. I think what she is doing is a very, very good idea. The thing is you can't just randomly take the information as gospel---and I'm willing to bet Dr. Dodds will agree with this---because what is being done right now is the investigative stage. There is only anecdotal information. Scientific studies must be done to prove her IDEAS correct. There is no definitive proof just yet.
Copied from a post of mine in reply to you on the Vaccine thread:
Occurrence of severe gastroenteritis in pups after canine parvovirus vaccine administration: A clinical and laboratory diagnostic dilemma
Nicola DecaroCorresponding Author Contact Information, a, E-mail The Corresponding Author, Costantina Desarioa, Gabriella Eliaa, Marco Campoloa, Alessio Lorussoa, Viviana Maria, Vito Martellaa and Canio Buonavogliaa
aDepartment of Animal Health and Well-being, Faculty of Veterinary Medicine of Bari, Strada per Casamassima Km 3, 70010 Valenzano, Bari, Italy
Received 10 August 2006; revised 22 September 2006; accepted 12 October 2006. Available online 25 October 2006.
Abstract
A total of 29 faecal samples collected from dogs with diarrhoea following canine parvovirus (CPV) vaccination were tested by minor groove binder (MGB) probe assays for discrimination between CPV vaccine and field strains and by diagnostic tests for detection of other canine pathogens. Fifteen samples tested positive only for CPV field strains; however, both vaccine and field strains were detected in three samples. Eleven samples were found to contain only the vaccine strain, although eight of them tested positive for other pathogens of dogs. Only three samples were found to contain the vaccine strain without evidence of canine pathogens. The present study confirms that most cases of parvovirus-like disease occurring shortly after vaccination are related to infection with field strains of canine parvovirus type 2 (CPV-2) rather than to reversion to virulence of the modified live virus contained in the vaccine.
This abstract appears to confirm shedding, along with your theory that the vaccinated parvo puppy did not get it from the vaccine, but was more susceptible to it because he was recently vaccinated.
the study confirms what I bolded.
From Dr. Dodds:
From The Immune System and Disease Resistance, a paper by DR W Jean Dodds, DVM
" A recent examination of the risks posed by MLV vaccines concluded that they are intrinsically more hazardous than inactivated products. The residual virulence and environmental contamination resulting from the shedding of vaccine virus is a serious concern."
-------
http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1648&articleid=962
You know whats damned funny? I cannot find this paper. In what journal was it published?
Shedding of vaccine agent
Vaccine virus may be found in the nasal secretions of dogs vaccinated intranasally. In addition, vaccine parvovirus is shed in the feces of vaccinated dogs, canine adenovirus-1 can be shed in the urine, and canine adenovirus-2 can be found in nasal secretions. These viruses are the vaccine forms of the virus; they do NOT revert back to the disease-causing strains.
---------
Again, its not a virulent strain. This means it will not cause disease in another animal. Thank you, you've contradicted what you were saying about vaccine associated viral shedding being capable of vaccinating other animals with your own post.
The Cornell Feline Health Center
College of Veterinary Medicine, Cornell University
& The American Association of Feline Practitioners
and the Academy of Feline Medicine Advisory Panel on Feline Vaccines
A second type of vaccine is the modified live-virus (MLV) vaccine (also referred to as an attenuated vaccine), which contains viruses that have been altered by various techniques, so that they no longer produce clinical disease. Viruses in these vaccines can replicate within the host and stimulate a rapid and excellent immune response. In some cases, vaccine virus may be shed from the vaccinated cat to infect other cats that may come in contact with the vaccinated cat. MLV vaccines should not be administered to pregnant cats.
I'd like it if you'd post this entire newsletter article. I looked on Cornell's website and was unable to find it. Thanks.
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No you didn't. You jump in against every vaccination (and commercial dog food) every chance you get. And then when you are called on it, you back a way real quick and try to claim that isn't what you said. We've had this almost exact same argument before. You are repeating yourself. Thats were I get that you have an agenda. You remind me of a control freak fundamentalist Christian (or Muslim, either or) who is convinced the entire world is going to hell unless they practice their religion the exact way you say they have to.
You just summed up Flower in a paragraph.
I wonder if she is related to someone with the last name Newkirk because she totally has that kind of attitude, of one of "those people". That die hard, blind enthusiasm.
I picture Flower's dogs like the animals from the movie Madagascar. They want to escape to the wild!!
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Boy Vet, you really do have some personal issues. I really don't see what is the problem with saying, "over vaccinating can cause behavior issues and is one more thing to consider". ::)
Point out to me where in this thread I said anything about not vaccinating. I said over vaccinating, can you see the difference?
I guess Dr. Dodds and Dr. Schultz with there combined years of experience and knowledge must seriously believe that their is something to vaccines causing problems to be doing the rabies challenge study, maybe you should contact them and tell them to get off the "anecdotal" band wagon. ;D
What's funny is if you didn't care what I think you either would not have replied in the first place or said something like "that may be true, but I believe that it is more the environment that shapes the animals behavior" or something like that. Instead you made up stuff that I said. Why? Why so upset? :-\
You should look at why you have an issue. :-\
Maybe you have rabies? Considering your profession you are probably high risk? When was your last vac for rabies? You should think about getting one every 3 years or closer together since it won't hurt you and could only help you.
:D
Those lying bastards Schultz and Dodds are using anecdotal evidence to solicit funds for the Rabies Challenge fund!! Go get them Vet!! Get there licenses revoked for saying that blatant lying information! >:(
Adverse reactions such autoimmune diseases affecting the thyroid, joints,
blood, eyes, skin, kidney, liver, bowel and central nervous system; anaphylactic shock; aggression;seizures; epilepsy; and fibrosarcomas at injection sites are linked to rabies vaccinations.
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/files/RCF%20STUDIES%20STARTED%20Press%20Release.pdf
edit: may be of interest to some 8):
http://books.google.com/books?id=DA4NFI-kBgAC&pg=PA309&lpg=PA309&dq=behavior+over+vaccinating+dog&source=web&ots=E-jM1BajWg&sig=8kM6x2qJwfwYd8_8qmgqAQCFmqs#PPA309,M1
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LOL @ temper ;D
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Diego doesn't like the water? Plato loves the water, weird. Like even the rain and stuff? And I totally agree that most Rottie's I have seen are frigging goofballs. When Plato wants attention sometimes he will roll completely over on his back, like spread eagle and stare at me until I laugh. It is amazing.
In the hot summer...he likes his kiddy pool.....otherwise no....he hates the rain. He really does not like his feet getting wet & will be tippy toes in the grass.
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Boy Vet, you really do have some personal issues. I really don't see what is the problem with saying, "over vaccinating can cause behavior issues and is one more thing to consider". ::)
Point out to me where in this thread I said anything about not vaccinating. I said over vaccinating, can you see the difference?
I guess Dr. Dodds and Dr. Schultz with there combined years of experience and knowledge must seriously believe that their is something to vaccines causing problems to be doing the rabies challenge study, maybe you should contact them and tell them to get off the "anecdotal" band wagon. ;D
What's funny is if you didn't care what I think you either would not have replied in the first place or said something like "that may be true, but I believe that it is more the environment that shapes the animals behavior" or something like that. Instead you made up stuff that I said. Why? Why so upset? :-\
You should look at why you have an issue. :-\
Maybe you have rabies? Considering your profession you are probably high risk? When was your last vac for rabies? You should think about getting one every 3 years or closer together since it won't hurt you and could only help you.
:D
Those lying bastards Schultz and Dodds are using anecdotal evidence to solicit funds for the Rabies Challenge fund!! Go get them Vet!! Get there licenses revoked for saying that blatant lying information! >:(
Adverse reactions such autoimmune diseases affecting the thyroid, joints,
blood, eyes, skin, kidney, liver, bowel and central nervous system; anaphylactic shock; aggression;seizures; epilepsy; and fibrosarcomas at injection sites are linked to rabies vaccinations.
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/files/RCF%20STUDIES%20STARTED%20Press%20Release.pdf
edit: may be of interest to some 8):
http://books.google.com/books?id=DA4NFI-kBgAC&pg=PA309&lpg=PA309&dq=behavior+over+vaccinating+dog&source=web&ots=E-jM1BajWg&sig=8kM6x2qJwfwYd8_8qmgqAQCFmqs#PPA309,M1
You know what Flower, I'm through with you after that post above. I've tried to keep a scientific basis to the discussion in an effort to educate other members of this board by trying to explain my understanding of the physiology involved and now, that I've proved you wrong, you are resorting to childish insults. You have crossed over into the land of overzealous idiot as far as I'm concerned. I've tried to address your discussions for months now and all you do is argue, argue, argue. Its now boiled down to me demeaning your precious Dr. Dodds----who I've said I AGREE WITH on the overvaccination issue. Yet thats not your agenda, so you are going to keep posting. I'm an evil veterinarian. I can't possibly agree with the brilliant wonderful Dr. Dodds---WHO IS ALSO A VETERINARIAN. Keep arguing, because at some point, you know you are going to out argue the person you are arguing with or they are going to get tired of your shit. I responded in the first place because I thought it was appropriate to respond. I also addressed your concerns again, because I don't want the misinformation you are spouting to be taken as gospel becuase IT HAS NOT BEEN PROVEN. Dr. Dodds even says this much. Not only that, I fully expect you to post with a swollen head how you've now "proven me wrong". Just so you know, you come across as such a nutjob at times with this stuff, any person with half a bit of logical reasoning ability would completely blow off what you are trying to say. Maybe consider taking a step back and look at what and how you post it, you'll be more effective at delivering your message. I don't have the time or the energy to reargue stuff like this. Its just not worth it to me.
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You just summed up Flower in a paragraph.
I wonder if she is related to someone with the last name Newkirk because she totally has that kind of attitude, of one of "those people". That die hard, blind enthusiasm.
I picture Flower's dogs like the animals from the movie Madagascar. They want to escape to the wild!!
I've said this before and I'll say it again. I'd fire her in a heartbeat if I was in private practice still and she tried to be a client in any hospital where I worked. She is the most dangerous type of person because she has internet access and can cut and paste stuff. She takes up too much time for me to be productive to my other clients with this repitition of topics over and over and over. Not only that, I fully picture her having a first class comeapart in the waiting room because my receptionist or technician reminds her that her dogs are due for their vaccinations or worse yet, if one of her dogs would happen to test positive for heartworms. It'd be totally unfair to all of my other clients considering the amount of time it'd take to deal with that crap. They don't deserve getting the short end of the stick.
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LOL!! All that from just tossing out an overvaccination view/possiblity/consideration (note the word OVER there, it was there for a reason you zealot) on aggression/behavior. Nothing elaborate or preaching, just something else to consider. Way to take the ball and run with it vet! LOL!! ;D
Calm down, all you have done is make me post respectable sources that also see a connection to the issue I raised. You are a dangerous vet if you ignore your respected peers and say stuff like "that is way way out there" and "show me 100% scientific proof". It is one thing to say you think connections are overinflated or something, but you basically DISCOUNT everything. You say you see an overvaccination issue, yet then say "show me 100% proof". Which is it? Considering you have said every connection is pretty much false, exactly how do you see an over vaccination issue? :-\
Show the proof on your anecdotal evidence that you spout on dog attacks "there has to be something else to the story". ::) You don't have scientific proof, yet for someone to use that argument against some things you have said would be idiotic and narrow minded. Too bad you can't seem to give the same credence to your peers and for the health benefit of your clients.
Nice try on the "my precious Dr. Dodds" ::) if you had any sense you would realize that I mentioned her and Schultz because they are respected and very knowledgeable and have said the same things I have said. That is to give weight or validity to what I have said and to point out that you are a close minded person. :)
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LOL!! All that from just tossing out an overvaccination view/possiblity/consideration on aggression/behavior.
Calm down, all you have done is make me post respectable sources that also see a connection to the issue I raised. You are a dangerous vet if you ignore your respected peers and say stuff like "that is way way out there" and "show me 100% scientific proof". It is one thing to say you think connections are overinflated or something, but you basically DISCOUNT everything.
Show the proof on your anecdotal evidence that you spout on dog attacks "there has to be something else to the story". ::) You don't have scientific proof, yet for someone to use that argument against some things you have said would be idiotic and narrow minded. Too bad you can't seem to give the same credence to your peers.
No flower, I've questioned your internet sources. They are quotes of respectable individuals, but like I said in the other post, I can't find half of what you are posting---including the article by Dr. Dodds and the Cornell Newsletter. Your favorite sources are antivaccination, antiheartworm, antiprocessed food sources. These obviously have a bias and are warping/misunderstanding what is written in order to fit their own agendas. You are a prime example of that. Not only that, but the way you take it as gospel and then regurgitate it is frightening.
The other thing is you better consider starting quoting me completely instead of warping my words. I said: Thats weird. There was something else going on with that dog. Did they rule out medical causes?
not what you are implying. That sentence was part of stating an opinion and request for further information.
Like i said before, I'm through with you. This is the last response you will get from me because I think you are wasting my time. Have fun posting by yourself.
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I was not referring to this thread about your "there must be more to the story" posts. There have been a few in the past about dog attacks. That clear enough for you - still waiting for you to show me where I said vaccinating and not over vaccinating in this thread. Oh, you can't because I never said that. :)
I still found it funny that you can say you see an over vaccination problem yet say every connection/possibility is false. :-\
I take it as gospel that vaccinations can cause health problems. That is a fact. Do they cause every problem - no, and I never have said they do. A lot of people are questioning vaccinations and health problems in people and in pets. How many articles in papers and news sources have you read in the past years on that subject? A LOT. How many people are told by their vets about studies on duration of immunity and the current way thinking is going as far as vaccinating? Not very many.
Tough crap if I bring that to the public. I have made a point of saying "over vaccination" and stuff like "it's something to consider", and giving links and resources so people can educate themselves in my posts for some time now. You seem to be the only one who is talking in absolutes. Don't go on a tirade about something I didn't say because you have issues with yourself. Get over it.
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Schultz and Dodds blatant bias to get money for funding, For Shame!
"Adverse reactions such autoimmune diseases affecting the thyroid, joints,
blood, eyes, skin, kidney, liver, bowel and central nervous system; anaphylactic shock; aggression;seizures; epilepsy; and fibrosarcomas at injection sites are linked to rabies vaccinations."
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Vet, I think you should go to this and stand up in the middle of it and yell:
Show Me the Money!!! wait..you are not Cuba Gooding..... make that:
Show Me the Proof!!!! (timed to be yelled out at the adverse reaction part)
And then tell him you don't want "no stinking agenda"!! lolollz
Dr. Ron Schultz, Professor and Chair, Department of Pathobiological Sciences, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Wisconsin-Madison, presented by the American Bouvier Rescue League.
"What Everyone Needs to Know About Canine Vaccines and Vaccination Programs"
Are you vaccinating your animals too much? Not enough? Wondering what's the "right" vaccine protocol-and why? Concerned about adverse reactions? Confused about titers?
Come hear Dr. Schultz, the co-investigator (with Dr. Jean Dodds) for the Rabies Challenge project, speak on the canine immune system, types of vaccines and the immune response, AAHA Guidelines for Core and Optional Vaccines, risk vs. benefit assessment, adverse reactions and antibody tests. Dr. Schultz, who has more than 35 years' experience in the field of immunology, is Professor and Chair of the Department of Pathobiological Sciences at the School of Veterinary Medicine at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. He has been a driving force behind many of the recent changes in vaccine recommendations made by the American Animal Hospital Association and the World Small Animal Veterinary Association.
Saturday, March 29, 2008, 9 am - 4 pm
Hilton Garden Inn, 10975 Georgia Lane, Alpharetta, Georgia 30022
Registration fee: $50 (pre-registration required)
Registration deadline: Friday, March 8, 2008.
For flyer and registration form, go to www.abrl.org and click on the link for the "Dr. Schultz Workshop" (http://www.bouvier.org/ABRL/ABRL%20Schultz%20Talk%20Flyer%20Reg.pdf) or contact Lisa at bouv329@gmail.com.
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Flower.
If google and yahoo were disable as search engines, would you stop arguing with vet?
Do you possess any credentials whatsoever? Any formal training or schooling? Anything?
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Well, i do not believe that when a puppy pit is walking around its aggressive towards other dogs. I think i should have said that a pitbull puppy when grown up, if not socialized properly, will have an extremely high chance of being dog aggressive even if it is otherwise raised 100% correctly; loving owner, discipline, training, diet, housing etc... That is where i think genes play a large part and nothing else. My mistake is speaking in generalizations rather than citing exact situations and circumstances.
I agree with traps here. I have owned and raised several pure bred APBT's. Pitbulls from supposed "game" lines. Imo Pitbulls puppy's are no more aggressive towards other animals then any other pup with a natural prey drive. That includes hunting dogs and such. Most all working and hunting dogs have some kind of prey drive inside them. Its not just pits. This whole argument is a mute point imo. We are talking about animals here. A lot of dogs are bred to have a high prey drives for hunting. American bulldogs for example that are used for boar hunting. I have run into some severally dog aggressive herding dogs in my day.
What makes pits so good for fighting is not a natural hatred for other animals. It is the relentless tenacity and extreme athleticism and strength they possess. A pit can pull thirty times its own weight. All they want to do is please there owner. If that owner promotes aggressive behavior towards other animals, the pit will work as hard as it can to fulfill that goal for its owner. A pit will work just as hard pulling a cart, swimming or playing Frisbee as it would fighting another dog. The pits "gameness" is def not exclusive to fighting.
Socialization and or proper training are the key to raising a healthy happy pitbull. Pitbulls happen to be some of the best family dogs you could ever want if they are brought up correctly.
Animals are going to act like animals unless you teach them otherwise. If you took to puppy's, a lab and a pit, and raised them without socialization and proper interaction with other animals, they would both be aggressive towards other animals.
Problem is the demographic who own pits these days promote aggressive behavior. Thank rappers and all around insecure scumbags for that.
Years ago its was Rottis. In a few years it will be Presa Canarios. As long as some humans continue to promote aggressive behavior from dog's , things will never change with certain breeds. Lets be real here though , you have a far better chance of being struck by lightning then severally hurt by a pitbull.
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I agree with traps here. I have owned and raised several pure bred APBT's. Pitbulls from supposed "game" lines. Imo Pitbulls puppy's are no more aggressive towards other animals then any other pup with a natural prey drive. That includes hunting dogs and such. Most all working and hunting dogs have some kind of prey drive inside them. Its not just pits. This whole argument is a mute point imo. We are talking about animals here. A lot of dogs are bred to have a high prey drives for hunting. American bulldogs for example that are used for boar hunting. I have run into some severaly dog aggressive herding dogs in my day.
What makes pits so good for fighting is not a natural hatred for other animals. It is the relentless tenacity and extreme athleticism and strength they possess. A pit can pull thirty times its own weight. All they want to do is please there owner. If that owner promotes aggressive behavior towards other animals, the pit will work as hard as it can to fulfill that goal for its owner. A pit will work just as hard pulling a cart, swimming or playing Frisbee as it would fighting another dog. The pits "gameness" is def not exclusive to fighting.
Socialization and or proper training are the key to raising a healthy happy pitbull. Pitbulls happen to be some of the best family dogs you could ever want if they are brought up correctly.
Animals are going to act like animals unless you teach them otherwise. If you took to puppy's, a lab and a pit, and raised them without socialization and proper interaction with other animals, they would both be aggressive towards other animals.
Problem is the demographic who own pits these days promote aggressive behavior. Tahnk rappers and all around insecure scumbags for that.
Years ago its was Rottis. In a few years it will be Presa Canarios.
Good post. And it all stems back to what I was saying, it is how they are raised. Pitbulls are not born aggressive. I never argued that it does not have a great chance of being a little iffy with other dogs if not socialized, but this is the same with all dogs really.
Overall a great post.
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Flower.
If google and yahoo were disable as search engines, would you stop arguing with vet?
Do you possess any credentials whatsoever? Any formal training or schooling? Anything?
Wow, how stupid of you. ;D Something wrong with using STUDIES, EXPERTS, and RESPECTED ORGANIZATIONS? Since I am a "nobody" I think it is better for people to be able to get info from people who are not nobodies.
You can't discredit the message, so try discredit the messenger. ;D
Really Vet should be upset with his colleagues and veterinary organizations for saying the same things I have been saying all along (and referencing it to them).They have actual "weight" behind them and if thinks they have an agenda and are professing untruths then he should try and do something about it. Twisting my words isn't going to stop them, so he should go to the sources.
You really didn't help Vet with that post, you actually made it worse because I now have to point out that he is disagreeing with a big chunk of his profession. Or maybe you did help because he will try and get that misinformation stopped from being spread by those people and organizations?
LOLOL! it is SOOOOO funny that a made a simple comment, and you temper even made a simple reply to it, yet Vet went bonkos over it to the point he had to say I said things I didn't. ::)
Still waiting to hear what he attributes to over vaccination when he disagrees with what the experts say may be caused by vaccination (but vaccinations aren't the only cause of)? Adverse reactions have been the talk for the past few years by the major veterinary organizations. They get quoted in articles posted in the public newspapers and magazines and professional ones. Why is he not taking issue with them, they are spewing their agenda to millions of people? He doesn't need to stop me from saying it, he needs to stop the top people from doing it or it will continue to be informing the people. :-\
Me personally, I want information, whether it agrees with what I think or not. So if these respected people and organizations are publishing incorrect or inaccurate information I would like to know that. My belief of people having the right to make INFORMED DECISIONS is based on getting ALL information, not just part of it. If Vet doesn't want to stop them from publishing what he thinks is misinformation, then he should stop bitching about it, he is part of the problem then.
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Flower.
If google and yahoo were disable as search engines, would you stop arguing with vet?
Do you possess any credentials whatsoever? Any formal training or schooling? Anything?
Whats fucked up is I'm sitting here trying to specifically word this post in a way that doesn't fuel her fires any more. I guess it doesn't matter. There will be some tirade about how I'm a poor veterinarian because I'm disregarding everything that is important even though I'm agreeing/quoting the very same "experts" I'm just not doing it in the correct manner. Like I said before, this is the most dangerous type of person. The time necessary to deal with their shit is ridiculous.
You know, I'm really, really interested in education/background/training. Its going to really, really surprise me if Flower has any formal training/education in veterinary medicine what so ever.
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Whats fucked up is I'm sitting here trying to specifically word this post in a way that doesn't fuel her fires any more. I guess it doesn't matter. There will be some tirade about how I'm a poor veterinarian because I'm disregarding everything that is important even though I'm agreeing/quoting the very same "experts" I'm just not doing it in the correct manner. Like I said before, this is the most dangerous type of person. The time necessary to deal with their shit is ridiculous.
You know, I'm really, really interested in education/background/training. Its going to really, really surprise me if Flower has any formal training/education in veterinary medicine what so ever.
We both know she doesn't. Anyone can get on Physics forum and google shit all day long. The basic fact of the matter is Flower can copy and paste all she wants and end every sentence with a smile ;D , but shes still a joke and it is obvious. Googling and then using a small piece of brain power/reading comprehension means nothing. Anyone with a brain can do that with any subject whatsoever.
I should do a bunch of research on Parkinson's and then walk into a neurologists office and criticize their treatment.
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You are so lame Vet. Yes, I can't read. I can't read articles and studies from vet organizations and people and the field and comprehend that their is a lot of people that think pets are being over vaccinated.
It is pretty sad that THAT is what you have to come back with.
Time to deal with what shit exactly? Yes it is so much easier for you to say all those people and sources are wrong rather than looking it into yourself.
You should look at why you go so defensive over a simple comment. Are you perhaps questioning the way that you have thought over the years? Well you are not alone, so instead of being one of the hard heads, try and be a better veterinarian and not just negate everything because that is what you have done in the past.
Your original comment that vaccines possibly having any role in behavior problems as being "way way out there, way out there" was wrong. You can't deal with that tough, like I said go to all your organizations and experts in the field and tell them to stop saying that if you feel so strongly about it. Those are reputable sources, and if they are not I personally would like them corrected if they are promoting fallacies. You could only be helping pets and people all over if you get them from stopping with the misinformation.
So, you going to do that Vet?
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Like I said before, this is the most dangerous type of person. The time necessary to deal with their shit is ridiculous.
You are dangerous because on one hand you will say over vaccinating is an issue, and then on the other hand say you don't think any adverse events can be linked to vaccines.
Which is it? Or is that the whole point? You can look like you a knowledgeable person by saying there is problems with over vaccination, yet not have to change anything and can still dismiss possible vaccine related problems
Pretty smart there vet ;)
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Some other people you should take issue with Vet:
This girl is obviously a moron, can't believe Penn would allow this on their site >:(:
http://www.vet.upenn.edu/schoolresources/communications/publications/bellwether/61/vaccine_guidelines.html
"Lastly, animals may shed the modified live vaccine virus, possibly infecting an immuno-compromised animal. Vaccine viruses can be spread through the gastrointestinal tract (parvovirus vaccine), through the kidneys (CAV-1), and through the respiratory tract (CAV-2)."
Fort Dodge idiots, why do they need to keep them separate, shouldn't be a problem, these are the idiots making vaccines?! oh boy!:
Controls and vaccinates were housed separately in isolation facilities during the immunization period and until they were challenged to prevent exposure to vaccine virus shedding. During the baseline and challenge procedures, the controls and vaccinates were housed together in an isolation facility.
http://www.dvmnews.com/dvm/data/articlestandard//dvm/202004/95386/article.pdf
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Mistake # 1.....
Medical Science is NOT 100% accurate all the time. Granted, I respect the years of research into the field, but, it's still not 100% (& most likely will never be).
I think everyone should have an opinion, because otherwise, we'd be a bunch of mice following a Doctors advice. This is where I strongly believe in getting one, two...or even 3 different Doctor/Vets Opinion. Formulate your own conclusion & when you, your kids, or animal dies prematurely or by your own submission (choice/decision)....you can take responsibility for the decisions made in the process. Everyone nowadays are quick to point fingers, blame, & sue.
Personally, I don't go to doctors & will not take medicine only when I'm in desire need. I feel because of this, is why I don't get sick or have colds. When I did in the past...I was just like everyone else with a weakend immune system. Granted, I will be the first person to tell people not to follow my protocol, because, I do not want someone pointing fingers at me. Make your own decision & leave it as that. Also...I think people should worry or concentrate more about themselves than worry about what other people are doing. Only if it directly affects me or people I care about, will I do something about it. I find that people who makes it their mission to get involved in everybody else's problems are just a mess with themselves personally & need a distraction from dealing with their own problems. Either that, they feel that can't do anything about them self personally, but can see how much they can affect others by their involvement/personal interaction which gives them "cause" or purpose.
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I agree knny, people need to think for themselves.
and if people want to get upset because someone puts out something to consider that does have backing to it, then they need to look at themselves for their own reasons that bothers them. This is a message board and people will have different ideas and message boards are made with the purpose in mind that many different people will contribute to a "discussion". You can learn from, laugh at, or ignore whatever contributions you don't think are relevant to you or that you don't care about.
it's the internet, get over it people. :)