Should we deport US citizens?

[OzmO]

Not practical or not perfect?  There are 3 choices for them.  Stay here with illegal parents and risk getting caught and possibly end up in state care.  Stay here with family.  Go back to Mexico.  As for the rest, well, I'll leave the insults.

Sorry Cap,  i apologize.   One day if you have kids you'll understand why i find what you just said outrageous and highly insensitive to innocent children.  So i got a little mad.  Again i apologize.

But still, we aren't talking about illegals that choose to stay here after we "REALLY" start to deport them.  we are talking deporting US citizens or sperating children from their families. 

BOTH options are bad.

[chaos]

i have no solution.  that's what the thread is about.  but i do know this.  Anything decision that would cause the children too suffer is the wrong one.

Then there is no solution!!!!!!!! How do you not blame the parents for illegally entering this country and putting their children in this position? Why would you be against sending the children home with the parents? It's not like I'm suggesting they could never come back. We're also not talking about putting 5 mil kids into the foster care system. If you would like to say we're deporting US children, fine, call it what you like, but the US didn't force this situation on them, blame the parents. Why wouldn't you point the finger where it belongs? Not enough people are standing up and saying it's the parents fault, it's the illegals fault for breaking into our country in the first place  You are right I have 0 compassion for illegals. and only a little for the kids. I feel bad they are caught in the drama, what do you do? And who do you blame? How do you stop it? CLOSE THE FUCKING BORDER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And Ozmo before you go off about having kids on me, I do have a son, guess what? he's legal cause he was born here to parents that were born here to grandparents that were born here to greatgrandparents that were born here...................

[OzmO]

Then there is no solution!!!!!!!! How do you not blame the parents for illegally entering this country and putting their children in this position? Why would you be against sending the children home with the parents? It's not like I'm suggesting they could never come back. We're also not talking about putting 5 mil kids into the foster care system. If you would like to say we're deporting US children, fine, call it what you like, but the US didn't force this situation on them, blame the parents. Why wouldn't you point the finger where it belongs? Not enough people are standing up and saying it's the parents fault, it's the illegals fault for breaking into our country in the first place   You are right I have 0 compassion for illegals. and only a little for the kids. I feel bad they are caught in the drama, what do you do? And who do you blame? How do you stop it? CLOSE THE FUCKING BORDER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And Ozmo before you go off about having kids on me, I do have a son, guess what? he's legal cause he was born here to parents that were born here to grandparents that were born here to greatgrandparents that were born here...................

don't worry i didn't get you cap mixed up.

i agree with you about blame going to the parents.   i just don't think the children should suffer do you?  My whole point has been about the children not the kids.....also on a side note,  you can't put too much blame on the illegals becuase we have outwardly turned a blind eye to it for years.

Yes, my great great grand dad came here from Germany or France in the late 1800's.   

[chaos]

Actually Ozmo, I put the blame 50/50. We as a society should have spoke up about this YEARS ago.  I also believe our gov needs to close the border, very, very strict on this one. We need to absolutely shut down the crossing of illegals into this country. What to do with the kids?? I don't know but like I said in the other thread here, I don't feel our gov, my our tax dollars should be spent to raise kids that should not have been born here, but were, only because their parents were criminals.

I know it's a hard line coming to children, but as hard as we try, we can't save the world and it shouldn't be our responsibility.

This subject fires me right up

I'm done....for now

[w8tlftr]

So we take 5 million US citizens, children of illegals, conceived and born in the USa, but are bonafied US citizens under the constituion and tax our system with them by putting them in foster homes or tell them they have to leave?

that makes no sense for our tax money as well as the children.

Yep. That's exactly what we do. Their parents broke the law and have to go.

Those "kids" are welcome to come back to the United States once they become legal adults.

Besides, it isn't like those "kids" are paying taxes and contributing to American society.

[OzmO]

Yep. That's exactly what we do. Their parents broke the law and have to go.

Those "kids" are welcome to come back to the United States once they become legal adults.

Besides, it isn't like those "kids" are paying taxes and contributing to American society.

those kids are the innocent ones here and they ARE American citizens.  I'm talking aout the parents.  I'm talking about the children.  Deporting all the illegals forces the children to suffer 2 ways:

1.  be separated form their families
2.  be the first US citizens to be deported form the USA.

Those kids are AMERICAN citizens by the 14th amendment nothing can change that.  they can come ANY time they wish.

[240 is Back]

I cannot see kicking out a kid who was born in America, who has been in America 17 years, because his parents are illegals.  There will be hundreds of thousands of 17 year olds.  There will be hundreds of thousands of 16 year olds.  There will be hundreds of thousands of 15 year olds.

See where I'm going with this?  As much as most people hate this amnesty thing, both parties agree on it because there are no other viable options.  you can't kick the parents out.

[Cap]

You can kick the parents out and call it deportation.  Nobody can argue that.  Nobody is going to kick any kids out, they will make-or their parents will-make a choice.  I will love to see how politicians will try to explain more taxes, more welfare, higher prices, etc if these people become citizens.  Kennedy, "It's for the children."  McCain, "they DESERVE it."  Crock of bullshit.  I say 12 million of us go to Europe and try this crap.  This is going to cause so many more problems than what to do with the many babies popped out by people who have HUGE families with many kids.  Will you all feel better about the children when you are paying a butt load more for all the aforementioned expenses?  I guess owning up to lawlessness and being responsible for ones actions is something that people no longer believe in.  If you give a dog a treat for pissing on the carpet repeatedly, will it stop and suddenly obey?  There should be no free pass to citizenship.  5 grand is nothing when you pay no income taxes.  At $300/wk-which is what these guys make-they make $15 grand a year, they can easily pay but they don't want to.  TYPICAL welfare recipient mentality; I'll take, you give and then I'll bitch if I have to actually work for it.

Those kids are AMERICAN citizens by the 14th amendment nothing can change that.  they can come ANY time they wish.

Exactly my point.  They will not be deported, they will make a hard choice and feel bad.  That is not deportation.

[w8tlftr]

those kids are the innocent ones here and they ARE American citizens.  I'm talking aout the parents.  I'm talking about the children.  Deporting all the illegals forces the children to suffer 2 ways:

1.  be separated form their families
2.  be the first US citizens to be deported form the USA.

Those kids are AMERICAN citizens by the 14th amendment nothing can change that.  they can come ANY time they wish.

Oz, I really don't care.

My mother is from the Philippines, didn't break the law, and became a U.S. citizen. This amnesty proposal is a slap in the face to everyone who plays by the rules.

It's not Americans or even the U.S. government that is making these kids suffer - it's the parents who broke our laws that are doing this to THEIR kids.

So I'll go back to my original statement. The kids can stay with any relatives in the U.S. who are here LEGALLY OR they can become wards of the state OR go back with their parents to their parents country of origin.

[OzmO]

You can kick the parents out and call it deportation.  Nobody can argue that.  Nobody is going to kick any kids out, they will make-or their parents will-make a choice.  I will love to see how politicians will try to explain more taxes, more welfare, higher prices, etc if these people become citizens.  Kennedy, "It's for the children."  McCain, "they DESERVE it."  Crock of bullshit.  I say 12 million of us go to Europe and try this crap.  This is going to cause so many more problems than what to do with the many babies popped out by people who have HUGE families with many kids.  Will you all feel better about the children when you are paying a butt load more for all the aforementioned expenses?  I guess owning up to lawlessness and being responsible for ones actions is something that people no longer believe in.  If you give a dog a treat for pissing on the carpet repeatedly, will it stop and suddenly obey?  There should be no free pass to citizenship.  5 grand is nothing when you pay no income taxes.  At $300/wk-which is what these guys make-they make $15 grand a year, they can easily pay but they don't want to.  TYPICAL welfare recipient mentality; I'll take, you give and then I'll bitch if I have to actually work for it.
 Exactly my point.  They will not be deported, they will make a hard choice and feel bad.  That is not deportation.

That's no different then saying:  Sign the confession or die. 

Again, you have no children so you are indifferent to the problem forcing children and parents to chose to leave their kids or let them get deported.   You see it as something they "just have to endure"   Perhaps you can remember back when you were 12 years and see it from those eyes.  Maybe you can't. 

You see this as such a simplistic solution and it's obvious you don't at all grasp the enormity and cruelty of what you are saying.

This reminds of what Australia did with the Aborigines when they separated families for their "own good"

No one, that i can see is arguing that illegals aren't a  problem.  but let's face facts.  Our stance on the issue has helped this problem up to now.  We have a responsibility to fix without causing children to suffer and without  deporting US citizens and in turn disgracing our own constitution.

[OzmO]

Oz, I really don't care.

My mother is from the Philippines, didn't break the law, and became a U.S. citizen. This amnesty proposal is a slap in the face to everyone who plays by the rules.

In closing, it's not Americans or even the U.S. government that is making these kids suffer - it's the parents who broke our laws that are doing this to THEIR kids.

So I'll go back to my original statement. The kids can stay with any relatives in the U.S. who are here LEGALLY OR they can become wards of the state OR go back with their parents to their parents country of origin.

I get that you think i believe the current proposed solution by our government is a good thing?  I don't. 

My mother is also from the Philippines and did the same as your mom.

However, it can be argued that it is partially our governments fault for turning a blind eye to illegals the past 20 years at the encouragement and lobby of agriculture and other companies.   For the us to say:  you have 2 choices to illegals is proper but to say that to children who are US citizens is not.

[Cap]

That's no different then saying:  Sign the confession or die. 

Again, you have no children so you are indifferent to the problem forcing children and parents to chose to leave their kids or let them get deported.   You see it as something they "just have to endure"   Perhaps you can remember back when you were 12 years and see it from those eyes.  Maybe you can't. 

You see this as such a simplistic solution and it's obvious you don't at all grasp the enormity and cruelty of what you are saying.

This reminds of what Australia did with the Aborigines when they separated families for their "own good"

No one, that i can see is arguing that illegals aren't a  problem.  but let's face facts.  Our stance on the issue has helped this problem up to now.  We have a responsibility to fix without causing children to suffer and without  deporting US citizens and those disgracing our own constitution.

I'll tell you what.  Make them pay the fees they should have, plus back taxes, etc which are all things they don't want to do.  A free ride is not a good idea for anyone but illegals.  Nobody should have a free ride.  The current bill is pretty much giving a cheap ride to citizenship and they don't want it.  What does that say about the illegals in this country?  What does that say to you?  What do you think they will do if given citizenship?  Will they obey laws then as opposed to now?  If they wanted to be citizens and stay here legally, should they not be held to the same standard as all other immigrants?  Sure it can be a lengthy process, but when they have been here for 10, 15, 20 years what is the excuse?  Should I feel bad because all of a sudden they realized that they broke the law?  It has nothing to do with me being childless, it has to do with practicality.  There is nothing practical or economical about letting them stay. Make them pay fines and fees that they owe and if they refuse to pay fees that grant them legal status, what would you say then?   Please tell me that you will not come back to the children thing?  Honestly, what is your opinion about the numerous illegals that have said they will not pay 5 grand to stay in this country?  Is that not a bargain at this point?

[w8tlftr]

I get that you think i believe the current proposed solution by our government is a good thing?  I don't. 

My mother is also from the Philippines and did the same as your mom.

However, it can be argued that it is partially our governments fault for turning a blind eye to illegals the past 20 years at the encouragement and lobby of agriculture and other companies.   For the us to say:  you have 2 choices to illegals is proper but to say that to children who are US citizens is not.

Hell yeah it can be argued that the government was asleep at the wheel regarding our illegal immigration problem. They have failed us completely.

This whole thing pisses me off. 

[OzmO]

I'll tell you what.  Make them pay the fees they should have, plus back taxes, etc which are all things they don't want to do.  A free ride is not a good idea for anyone but illegals.  Nobody should have a free ride.  The current bill is pretty much giving a cheap ride to citizenship and they don't want it.  What does that say about the illegals in this country?  What does that say to you?  What do you think they will do if given citizenship?  Will they obey laws then as opposed to now?  If they wanted to be citizens and stay here legally, should they not be held to the same standard as all other immigrants?  Sure it can be a lengthy process, but when they have been here for 10, 15, 20 years what is the excuse?  Should I feel bad because all of a sudden they realized that they broke the law?  It has nothing to do with me being childless, it has to do with practicality.  There is nothing practical or economical about letting them stay. Make them pay fines and fees that they owe and if they -  refuse to pay fees that grant them legal status, what would you say then?   Please tell me that you will not come back to the children thing?  Honestly, what is your opinion about the numerous illegals that have said they will not pay 5 grand to stay in this country?  Is that not a bargain at this point?

Well,  , i 'm happy that you see my point is not about the adult illegals.

I'm not asking you to feel bad about anything.  all i'm asking you to do is consider the welfare of innocent children and the integrity of our constitution.

I think, after seeing all these opinions from you and others, the most important thing to do right now is shut the border tight.

Form that point i really don't know. 

here's why:

-  WE SHOULD NOT GRANT THEM CITIZENSHIP.

-  if we kick them out over a period of let's say 2 years our economy will take a serious hit and the effects could be far worse than we realize.


Maybe we should do this:  They must be able to speak passable English, be free of criminal records, pay all taxes and perhaps a $5000 fine fro breaking the illegal alien law.  If they meet these condition they can stay.

I'm just thinking off the top pf my head.  but at least they are given a reasonable option.

[OzmO]

They have failed us completely.

Among a long long list of other things 

[Cap]

If they do not want to pay then they are done IMO.

If they can speak English-we agree.

If they pay taxes and fees-we agree.

Is it messed up for the kids?-we agree.

Are they responsible for their plight?-we seem to disagree there.  If a druggie blamed harsher enforcement for his/her incarceration after years of lax enforcement, is he/she still not wrong/guilty?  We cannot separate the issue of kids and parents because one could not happen w/o the other.

If they have criminal records and have kids?-IMO they go, you might disagree.  Feel free to respond.

IMO, any adult who wants citizenship must work, whether mom, dad, etc.  If they are jobless then that is a risk I am not willing to take and if not employed must be employed before citizenship being granted.

You mention the economic hit, what do you say to them being the cause of price increases if they are legally deserving of higher wages?  Please answer that one for me.

Why couldn't our welfare workers-and I have said this before-do all the jobs that illegals do now?  They would be WORKING for money and doing the same jobs and they would be legal.  Seems to me that it would work.

[OzmO]

If they do not want to pay then they are done IMO.

If they can speak English-we agree.

If they pay taxes and fees-we agree.

Is it messed up for the kids?-we agree.

Are they responsible for their plight?-we seem to disagree there.  If a druggie blamed harsher enforcement for his/her incarceration after years of lax enforcement, is he/she still not wrong/guilty?  We cannot separate the issue of kids and parents because one could not happen w/o the other.

I see it the like the story of giving a mouse a cookie.  We allowed much of this to happen by not something about it years ago.  I don;t think we have full responsibility of course, but our lack of doing anything about is part of the problem and we must consider that when trying to fix it.

If they have criminal records and have kids?-IMO they go, you might disagree.  Feel free to respond.

If they have felonies in the US they should go, but i think that happens anyway.

IMO, any adult who wants citizenship must work, whether mom, dad, etc.  If they are jobless then that is a risk I am not willing to take and if not employed must be employed before citizenship being granted.

You mention the economic hit, what do you say to them being the cause of price increases if they are legally deserving of higher wages?  Please answer that one for me.

Why couldn't our welfare workers-and I have said this before-do all the jobs that illegals do now?  They would be WORKING for money and doing the same jobs and they would be legal.  Seems to me that it would work.

Your idea about the Welfare is nice, but very unrealistic, there are a percentage that truly need it, then there are a percentage that are plain lazy bottom feeders and have no intention of earning an hosnest  living. 

Maybe we should deport them and keep the illegals who are earnest and hard working!

Over the next few days i'm going to research the economic impact getting rid of all the illegals would do to our country,  i think you and i are talking in a vacuum here becuase we don't have all the facts.


oh also,  if we make them legal we will feel the cost of higher wages in higher prices, so if we get rid of them, then others may take there place who are citizens and the prices will rise anyway.

[Cap]

I welcome hard workers over lazy fucks any day, but they must also contribute to society in the way of taxes, specifically income taxes.  In terms of welfare, sure, people need it.  My plan would 1.) negate any economic benefit of illegal workers 2.) cut cost between the gov't and businesses which is good for both, 3.) makes their lazy welfare asses earn their money, 4.) provide them with a work history as opposed to toe nail clipping collections sitting in their trailer.  No welfare worker should get a free ride; make em work.  They may need it but they ought to work for it.  Same for illegals.  If you combine welfare workers legal status and illegals work ethic, you have an American citizen I want here.

[chaos]

Ozmo, I'm curious, you don't have to answer if you don't want to, but what state/area do you live?

I know 240 is in Florida, I'm not sure of the illegal population down there. But here in SoCal, the illegal population takes a heavy toll on our system. It is very disturbing, having kids in the mix makes it harder to make a tough decision, but I don't think there are alot of options on this. 

If the parents are illegal they should be deported, no question.

The children should NOT be given to the state or foster care, etc. Maybe a non-profit org. could set up a program, but it should NOT be state/fed run.

Yes, these kids are Americans, under the 14th. They should be allowed to come and go like any American.


The options are limited, but if the parents are deported and don't want to seperate the family, the LET THEM TAKE THE CHILD.

[OzmO]

Ozmo, I'm curious, you don't have to answer if you don't want to, but what state/area do you live?

I know 240 is in Florida, I'm not sure of the illegal population down there. But here in SoCal, the illegal population takes a heavy toll on our system. It is very disturbing, having kids in the mix makes it harder to make a tough decision, but I don't think there are alot of options on this. 

If the parents are illegal they should be deported, no question.

The children should NOT be given to the state or foster care, etc. Maybe a non-profit org. could set up a program, but it should NOT be state/fed run.

Yes, these kids are Americans, under the 14th. They should be allowed to come and go like any American.


The options are limited, but if the parents are deported and don't want to seperate the family, the LET THEM TAKE THE CHILD.

I live in No. Cali.  between SF and Sac.  i regularly go into the valley on business into Stockton, Modesto, Fresno etc....  So i see much of the same things you do.   

We cannot in good conscience force children/parents to make a choice like that.  We must give them an opportunity to raise their children with out us deporting them.  If that means they pay fines or taxes to stay here without the parents getting automatic citizenship then w/e. 

Fact is, we have enabled this problem to continue with or blind eye policies for the past few years.

You cannot indirectly provide "crime causing avenues" then unilaterally punish whole groups for taking advantage of  the "freedom" we have.

[Cap]

I live in No. Cali.  between SF and Sac.  i regularly go into the valley on business into Stockton, Modesto, Fresno etc....  So i see much of the same things you do.   
We cannot in good conscience force children/parents to make a choice like that.  We must give them an opportunity to raise their children with out us deporting them.  If that means they pay fines or taxes to stay here without the parents getting automatic citizenship then w/e. 
Fact is, we have enabled this problem to continue with or blind eye policies for the past few years.
You cannot indirectly provide "crime causing avenues" then unilaterally punish whole groups for taking advantage of  the "freedom" we have.

I understand your position, whether we agree or not.  So, what you suggest if they refused to pay anything?  I see that as a slap in the face.  5 grand is a bargain for them at this point, especially after the years of tax evasion/enforcement (however you want to look at it).  I think that they could afford that but for some to come outright and say "No, it is not a viable option", to me that is outrageous.  Should we just not grant them citizenship at that point?  We're still going to get screwed if they are all citizens.

[OzmO]

I understand your position, whether we agree or not.  So, what you suggest if they refused to pay anything?  I see that as a slap in the face.  5 grand is a bargain for them at this point, especially after the years of tax evasion/enforcement (however you want to look at it).  I think that they could afford that but for some to come outright and say "No, it is not a viable option", to me that is outrageous.  Should we just not grant them citizenship at that point?  We're still going to get screwed if they are all citizens.

They were given an opportunity, so then they get deported i guess.   I'm thinking out loud here and formulating opinion as we go on, but that's how i see it right now.  Giving all these people no-strings attached amnesty isn't a good option IMO.   They enter the country illegally and there needs to be some sort of consequence for that be it small or big.

[Cap]

They were given an opportunity, so then they get deported i guess.   I'm thinking out loud here and formulating opinion as we go on, but that's how i see it right now.  Giving all these people no-strings attached amnesty isn't a good option IMO.   They enter the country illegally and there needs to be some sort of consequence for that be it small or big.

Now we are getting somewhere in terms of our discussion.  That's what really kills me (aside from us getting potentially screwed if they get equal wages, access to more welfare, soc security, etc).  5 thousand is nothing these days.

[loco]

Now we are getting somewhere in terms of our discussion.  That's what really kills me (aside from us getting potentially screwed if they get equal wages, access to more welfare, soc security, etc).  5 thousand is nothing these days.

cap86,
I agree with you that if the US offers them legal residency for $5,000, they should take it.  That is a bargain.   I just don't know if we should believe the media that most illegal immigrants don't want to take this offer.  I know that a lot of them would rather die than go back to Mexico.  So why wouldn't they pay $5,000 to stay?

[Cap]

cap86,
I agree with you that if the US offers them legal residency for $5,000, they should take it.  That is a bargain.   I just don't know if we should believe the media that most illegal immigrants don't want to take this offer.  I know that a lot of them would rather die than go back to Mexico.  So why wouldn't they pay $5,000 to stay?

They say it sounds too good to be true, according to initial reports and say that the amount is too much.  To me, that is nothing short of a gift and almost a free ride to citizenship.