Israel is very much so involved in the NSA spy ring of US citizen your 'friend'

[AbrahamG]

A. Ahmed, I respect Islam, but you are kind of a tool.  You need to be more intellectually honest about the shortcomings of Islam as it is practiced by far too many.  Being critical from the inside out is the best way to move the faith forward.  Islam as it is meant to be practiced is a beautiful faith. 

Now, with that disclaimer aside.  I despise Israel and what it has become.  Jews are great people and need to be judged on individual merit.  But the state of Israel has become a genital wart on the penile shaft of all humanity.

I am Pro-Palestine, Pro-Hezbollah and Pro-Hamas.  I don't and can never condone suicide bombings that take the lives of civillian.  Soldiers and government officials are fair game.

[a_ahmed]

I am just saying things as they are.

It's not Muslims who are invading America and killing millions.

The west is not bringing anything useful to the world as things stand. Bragging about material inventions, so what? Give credit to Muslims who ought to be given credit as well? I find it funny when some twerp says why are you using "american technology" such as a computer (lmao) when the fool doesn't realize there would be no computer without things like algebra, mathematics, arabic numerals, etc...

Blind hate.

I all the time point out what Islam teaches/says and then fellas on here talk about "OH NO its izlamz". For example if some village idiot rapes or kills a woman, just because, a swarm of morons on here will start attacking islam, I point out this has nothing to do with islam but then I am labelled a 'liar'.

So I do try to point out what Islam actually teaches but it falls on deaf ears.

Likewise with the blind hate filled accusations of Muslims being obsessed with violence/loving violence, when in fact the opposite is true.

We've been through this vicious cycle countless times. A swarm of flies coming in starts copy pasting verses from the qur'an out of context from islamophobe websites and so on.

Shortcomings of Islam? No, shortcomings of Muslims who do not follow Islam. If you want to know Islam look at Islam not Muslims. There are Muslims who sleep around, cheat, drink, club, rape, etc... but these things are not islam, so its not the shortcomings of Islam but rather the shortcomings of Muslims who do not follow the teaches of islam.

[24KT]

1. How one says a state "ought" to be run will surely be a function of one's beliefs and interests, e.g., if I think adhering to Islamic principles of governance is desirable (installing Sharia law and the like), I will point to Afghanistan under the Taliban, or -- to a somewhat more limited extent -- Saudi Arabia as admirable models. As it happens, I don't think any state should be run on the basis of religious precepts, meaning ahmed and I are necessarily opposed.

Then you would be woefully disappointed. I make no claims to have a full understanding of Islam, or Sharia law, ...but I at least know enough to know that the perversions practiced by the Taliban have nothing to do with Islam or Sharia law.

2. To answer your question, spinning the globe at random reveals Christians doing a decent job of governance in Germany, Jews in Israel, and Buddhists in Japan -- all due to their more or less governing on the basis of secular principles, independent of whatever metaphysical hogwash they consider sacrosanct. All models on offer have significant room for improvement, though it seems to me that the models closest to well-being maximization we can ever hope to instantiate will be mere iterations of those currently on offer.

Christians doing a decent job in Germany? When it's against the law to voice certain opinions, ...and where the head of state risks the financial well being of her citizens in order to win an election? Jews in Israel? The Jews aren't in charge of Israel, ...atheist Zionists are, ...and they are endangering the lives of Jews, and destabilizing peace, not only within Israel, but throughout the ME, and the world due to their policies of ethnic genocide, apartheid, and brutal repression of Jews, Muslims, and Christians a like, ...not to mention their routine hubris and disregard for human rights and international law. As for Buddhists in Japan? Puleaze! The only one with a printing press faster than Bernanke's is Shinzo Abe, ...the man Bernanke is trying to keep up with in running his respective country into the ground.

I'm extremely confident that all such models -- actual and hypothetical -- are superior to taking Islam seriously, and extremely confident that if you ever came out to this part of the world and saw Islam in action, you would be inclined to agree. Can we at least meet half way here and agree that the following properties of government would, in all likelihood, not maximize human well-being: virulent homophobia, giving women's testimony half the value in court, forcibly suppressing half the population's (women) career prospects and thus half a state's economic potential, banning alcohol (for shame!), banning eating in public during certain weeks due to ancient superstition, and legalizing wife beating?

This thread is about Israel's involvement in the NSA spyring, ...not about Islam, Judaism, or any other religion.

Why is it that a nation so proud of their supposed separation of church & state, find themselves so incapable of separating church & state? Crime is crime regardless of the state that commits it, ...and regardless of whatever "religion" the criminals choose to hide behind.

[AbrahamG]

I am just saying things as they are.

It's not Muslims who are invading America and killing millions.

The west is not bringing anything useful to the world as things stand. Bragging about material inventions, so what? Give credit to Muslims who ought to be given credit as well? I find it funny when some twerp says why are you using "american technology" such as a computer (lmao) when the fool doesn't realize there would be no computer without things like algebra, mathematics, arabic numerals, etc...

Blind hate.

I all the time point out what Islam teaches/says and then fellas on here talk about "OH NO its izlamz". For example if some village idiot rapes or kills a woman, just because, a swarm of morons on here will start attacking islam, I point out this has nothing to do with islam but then I am labelled a 'liar'.

So I do try to point out what Islam actually teaches but it falls on deaf ears.

Likewise with the blind hate filled accusations of Muslims being obsessed with violence/loving violence, when in fact the opposite is true.

We've been through this vicious cycle countless times. A swarm of flies coming in starts copy pasting verses from the qur'an out of context from islamophobe websites and so on.

Shortcomings of Islam? No, shortcomings of Muslims who do not follow Islam. If you want to know Islam look at Islam not Muslims. There are Muslims who sleep around, cheat, drink, club, rape, etc... but these things are not islam, so its not the shortcomings of Islam but rather the shortcomings of Muslims who do not follow the teaches of islam.

I find it ridiculous that you compare rape to drinking and clubbing.  Honestly, I'm with you for the most part.  I hate Fox News, Islamophobes, the right wing and the like.  But I also hate how middle eastern culture often times conflates with real Islamic traditions.  The fact that girls are having their genitals mutilated in the name of Islam, actually angers me to my core.  This isn't done by Al Qaeda and the "bad" muslims.  This is done by devout, God fearing believers who don't practice terrorism.  Although, to me this is familial terrorism.  

Back to my original point.  Sleeping around probably isn't good, but it's a free will thing.  Drinking in excess probably isn't good, but in moderation I just can't see the problem.  Going to clubs to spend time with friends?  Probably not going to lead to the demise of civilization.

[a_ahmed]

Well bro we muslims have different standards, for us, fornication, rape, adultery, drinking, clubbing, one night stands is all the same. These things corrupt society as a whole.

You have free will to do what ever you want, but you will be held accountable by God on the day of judgment by whatever you do.

You can kill, steal, cheat and get away with it in this life but you won't get away with it in the next.

The fact that western society has declined on principles and morals does not mean we Muslims have to adopt to what the liberal west wants to propagate.

It's kind of how the west tries not to only impose dictatorships or so called democratic puppet regimes but wants to also impose its liberal values. It just won't fly. We have different values in that sense.

The fact of the matter is, these values are more akin to judaism and christianity that the pop culture of the west has abandoned. So in effect if Christians were God fearing and abiding by religion they would be in fact far closer to Muslims but that is not the case, pop culture and media has changed these standards.

Sleeping around, getting smashed, one night stands have become ritual fun, something to laugh about, joke about, as okay, etc... one step at a time.

Hence to us these things are unacceptable.

As far as things like forced marriages, abuse of women, etc.. these are things that are foreign to Islam but part of some of the backwards preislamic cultures.

For example 'honor killings' have nothing to do with islam and are practiced widely by african and arab christians, hindus, but media focuses on muslims who do it.

Just one example.

Also back to the free will thing, adults have free will to comit adultery, free will to cheat, free will to rob a bank? Where does this free will stop? It's not about 'free will' God gave us free will, that's what Islam teaches us, but also teaches us how to live this life, the actions to do or not to do and the consequences of those actions for a better society or worse off society.

[AbrahamG]

Not drinking, not fornicating not acting like a fool on a dance floor, not dressing provocatively all of those things are fine and they have my utmost respect.  But any book or belief system that tells me lying, cheating and stealing are in any way comparable to physical abuse, rape and murder is just completely devoid of common sense.  I am not just talking about Islam, but the ten commandments as well.

For someone knocking the "liberal west" you sure like to throw out a lot of liberal bullshit.  I am a card carrying liberal for the record and when you and liberals try to say Christian and Hindu zealots are just as bad as Muslim zealots all I can do is call bullshit. 

So with that, to most of your points all I can say is bullshit. 

Most of us don't need religion to tell us what's right or wrong or what harms society .

[a_ahmed]

They are not the same, but they are all classed as sins, corruption and criminal acts under Islam. You are missing the point.

As far as you thinking you don't need God or whoever to tell you what's right and wrong. Maybe, some people naturally are inclined to know these things, but some aren't. If mankind is let to decide what's right and wrong the whole world will be misguided and that indeed is the case. Everyone argues of what's right and wrong and ultimately the world is in chaos. Exactly the point, in the west people argue for these things as normal or acceptable.

We can agree to disagree, the reason you may have problems with accepting these things because you are yourself having perhaps relationships out of wedlock or enjoy drinking but if you see the harms it brings to society you would understand Islam's point of view. Islam is not about implementing patch fixes, its about stopping problems at the root cause before they happen.

[AbrahamG]

They are not the same, but they are all classed as sins, corruption and criminal acts under Islam. You are missing the point.

As far as you thinking you don't need God or whoever to tell you what's right and wrong. Maybe, some people naturally are inclined to know these things, but some aren't. If mankind is let to decide what's right and wrong the whole world will be misguided and that indeed is the case. Everyone argues of what's right and wrong and ultimately the world is in chaos. Exactly the point, in the west people argue for these things as normal or acceptable.

We can agree to disagree, the reason you may have problems with accepting these things because you are yourself having perhaps relationships out of wedlock or enjoy drinking but if you see the harms it brings to society you would understand Islam's point of view. Islam is not about implementing patch fixes, its about stopping problems at the root cause before they happen.

I think I agree with many of the same things.  I don't think infidelity (which I don't partake in) is a good thing.  I don't think in any reasonable way, shape or form should it be punishable by death.

I think drinking in excess is harmful and 99.9% of the time, no good can come of it.  A drink with your dinner or at a ball game or on a hot sunny day poolside?  Common sense tells me thats ok.  For the record I don't drink.  Not even occasionally.  In fact, my lips haven't so much as touched alcohol since 2005.

Guess what else, I don't eat pork.  Haven't for about 15 years.  Was never big on it to begin with, but it was Islam that led me to abstain from it and since then, it's become more a health choice rather than religious.  But, if someone enjoys a slab of bbq ribs from time to time, I don't feel they are damned to hell. 

If a woman chooses to cover herself modestly, that great.  As long as it is her choice.  However, she shouldn't be forced to do so.  In fact, compulsion in religion is against the Quran.  I think its weak for Muslim men to need women covered from head to toe to avoid impure thoughts and the like.  Have some self control and take responsibility for your own self.  Would I ever want my wife, daughter, sister or mother wearing thongs and provocative clothing in public?  No, of course not.  But if my sisters feet, calves, knees, wrists, elbows or neck drive you or anyone else to impure thoughts or actions, then my friend, you have real problems.

[a_ahmed]

The thing is you are placing yourself as the judge as to what limits to set or not to set. You can delude yourself how far you go and deceive yourself by that standard as society has already done to itself. How do you know some guy doesn't get turned on buy x example of whatever part of a woman being exposed? What may not affect you may affect another guy. Saying 'he has a problem' because he gets turned on by a woman is not solving problems nor will it solve problems but just deny the problem society has not 'the guy'.

In India it's been long culturally accepted that women show their bellies, but in America for the longest time it was viewed as highly disrespectful and slutty. Yet rape is rampant in India. Oh and rape is VERY rampant in America but it's not spoken about 247 in the news. Abuse of women is high in America.

So I commend you on all you've said, its really good all you've said, but God knows whats better for you as God created you, and understands human desires better than humans know themselves. You can act on your 'free' will' as you wish, you can act upon your intellect or upon your desires, this is your choice ultimately and everyone else's, but there are consequences.

Men are not the same as women. A muscular guy can strut his stuff on a street and most women will yawn, but put an even ugly but overdressed women on the street with desperately horny guys on the street and they will be howling like dogs. Non-muslims know this, muslims just don't deny that they don't know it.

Point is when you are the one setting these standards how low do you go? A skirt at the knee level was slutty in America 50 some years ago. Have you checked outside how girls dress in summer? What skirt? It's practically underwear length 'skirt' or shorts or whatever the hell it is anymore. It's not even a micro-skirt, micro-skirts were once scandalous but now pretty much an office normal. You get the point I hope.

Islam is a religion of principle and it neither sways in the wind because people's desires sway anyway the wind blows nor does it go to 'fix and patch' problems but stops problems from happening in the first place at the root cause.


Back on topic.

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/06/22/israel-and-the-nsa-scandal/

Israel your friend.

[Teutonic Knight]

LOL...how ironic.  "Peace", under Muslim tyranny, where Christians and Jews were second-class citizens who were forced to pay Muslims a special tax.    

"PEACE" process in Syria at the moment , West is arming pro-western heretic Arabs & Ahmed side
will be fucked again  ;

[Teutonic Knight]

It is Muslims who lie and taint Islam.  And Islamic nations are 100-1,000 years behind Western nations.

Even good old European Neanderthal was more advanced that Ahmed's mob.

What kind of moron believe if he blow up himself   that Allah will reward him with 200 virgins  

[Teutonic Knight]

Otherwise the islamic civilization brought far more progress to the world than the west ever did and for a far longer period of time. The western modern empire now only about 300 years of m
[/quote]

Ahmed, you belong to straight jacked, any shrinks here to help him 

[Teutonic Knight]

As far as things like forced marriages, abuse of women, etc.. these are things that are foreign to Islam but part of some of the backwards preislamic cultures.

[/quote]

Ahmed, Taliban will castrate & sodomize you for this

[AbrahamG]

The thing is you are placing yourself as the judge as to what limits to set or not to set. You can delude yourself how far you go and deceive yourself by that standard as society has already done to itself. How do you know some guy doesn't get turned on buy x example of whatever part of a woman being exposed? What may not affect you may affect another guy. Saying 'he has a problem' because he gets turned on by a woman is not solving problems nor will it solve problems but just deny the problem society has not 'the guy'.

In India it's been long culturally accepted that women show their bellies, but in America for the longest time it was viewed as highly disrespectful and slutty. Yet rape is rampant in India. Oh and rape is VERY rampant in America but it's not spoken about 247 in the news. Abuse of women is high in America.

So I commend you on all you've said, its really good all you've said, but God knows whats better for you as God created you, and understands human desires better than humans know themselves. You can act on your 'free' will' as you wish, you can act upon your intellect or upon your desires, this is your choice ultimately and everyone else's, but there are consequences.

Men are not the same as women. A muscular guy can strut his stuff on a street and most women will yawn, but put an even ugly but overdressed women on the street with desperately horny guys on the street and they will be howling like dogs. Non-muslims know this, muslims just don't deny that they don't know it.

Point is when you are the one setting these standards how low do you go? A skirt at the knee level was slutty in America 50 some years ago. Have you checked outside how girls dress in summer? What skirt? It's practically underwear length 'skirt' or shorts or whatever the hell it is anymore. It's not even a micro-skirt, micro-skirts were once scandalous but now pretty much an office normal. You get the point I hope.

Islam is a religion of principle and it neither sways in the wind because people's desires sway anyway the wind blows nor does it go to 'fix and patch' problems but stops problems from happening in the first place at the root cause.


Back on topic.

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/06/22/israel-and-the-nsa-scandal/

Israel your friend.

On point, Israel is NOT my friend.

Off point.  This is extreme and even ridiculous, but in theory, women should be able to walk down the street butt naked in Pakistan.  Human nature would dictate that the penis may become erect.  That's fine, normal, acceptable or whatever.  It is at the point of erection where ones religious values or moral values need to intervene and not act.

Self control and personal responsibility. 

I agree with you, rape is everywhere.  America, Africa, India, the arab world, you name it.  India's nasty little secret has finally been exposed.  Rape is just as high, if not higher in Pakistan and other Muslim countries who practice and enforce strict modesty.  So your point seems moot as regards to dress code as it pertains to rape.  I don't give a flying fuck who wears what.  There is never any justification for rape.  No one asks for it. 

I just wish you'd be less defensive about your Muslim brothers and call a spade a spade. 

[avxo]

Apparently the Jews of Spain dubbed the rule of muslims under shariah law as the golden age of judaism. Jews strived and many jewish historians who do not have their ego to scrub cite that without Muslims Jews would have perished as mere writings in the books of ancient history.

Even if true, so what?

Trying to taint and lie about Islam to make the western way look better is a hilarious tactic.

One doesn't need to lie about Islam. Its own followers paint it in a light much worse than any lie could. One only needs to point to the murderer of Theo Van Gogh; to the mindless thugs frothing at the mouth, demanding the head of a cartoonist on a pike; to the Father who killed his own daughter in some sick notion of honor.

The western armies are the ones waging bloodshed, wars and violence over the world.

Even if that's true, does that excuse the Muslims who strap on a suicide vest and blow themselves up? Or is that western propaganda too?

Muslims are terrorists whenever they defend themselves, but American bombs are democracy.

The attacks of 9/11 weren't defensive.

You are so blinded by what your country is doing even if it's against you. You are blinded by the hatred that has been instilled of you over Islam and muslims.

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks. He may be blinded, but so are you - you're blinded by your religion; you justify everything that's done in its name and make up excuses for why those acts are justified.

In Islam spying on people individually is disallowed.

Where is that, specifically, in the Qur'an. And what does "individually" mean? Is it OK to spy on them collectively?

So yes, one more thing that the west opposes Islam for. The west has embraced intrusion of privacy, spying and whatever else you want to call it. Your so called 'freedoms' are a delusion.

They may very well be. At least in Islam there are no delusions when it comes to freedom. Nobody is free.

[Skeletor]

Even good old European Neanderthal was more advanced that Ahmed's mob.

What kind of moron believe if he blow up himself   that Allah will reward him with 200 virgins  

72 currently, so many blew themselves up that Allah couldn't keep up and had to downsize from 200..

[syntaxmachine]

the perversions practiced by the Taliban have nothing to do with Islam or Sharia law.

The problem is that that specific set of 'perversions,' wherever it occurs, is coextensive with a large Muslim population. Are we to believe that 25% of Muslims supporting suicide attacks against civilians in at least some circumstances, 73% thinking religious authorities should arbitrate all domestic affairs, 28% thinking that apostates should be executed, 90% thinking that homosexuality is morally wrong, and 85% thinking that wives should always obey their husbands independent of context has nothing to do with the precepts of Islam as layed down in the Koran and Hadith? That would be quite the cosmic coincidence, seeing as it ranges across the whole globe (and thus can't be chalked up solely to regressive Middle Eastern cultures).

(http://www.pewforum.org/uploadedFiles/Topics/Religious_Affiliation/Muslim/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-full-report.pdf)

Let's see if you can explain that particular set of regressive attitudes in a way that does not involve Islam at all; there are many more in reserve that need explaining should you succeed.

Christians doing a decent job in Germany? When it's against the law to voice certain opinions, ...and where the head of state risks the financial well being of her citizens in order to win an election? Jews in Israel? The Jews aren't in charge of Israel, ...atheist Zionists are, ...and they are endangering the lives of Jews, and destabilizing peace, not only within Israel, but throughout the ME, and the world due to their policies of ethnic genocide, apartheid, and brutal repression of Jews, Muslims, and Christians a like, ...not to mention their routine hubris and disregard for human rights and international law. As for Buddhists in Japan? Puleaze! The only one with a printing press faster than Bernanke's is Shinzo Abe, ...the man Bernanke is trying to keep up with in running his respective country into the ground.

Pointing out flaws in the models I endorsed isn't equivalent to saying that they are failures; I explicitly said that they all have significant room for improvement. The fundamental point is that each is a superior mode of being to anything ahmed would have us usher in.

This thread is about Israel's involvement in the NSA spyring, ...not about Islam, Judaism, or any other religion.

I didn't bring up Islam; I was responding to someone who did, questioning their presuppositions.

[avxo]

72 currently, so many blew themselves up that Allah couldn't keep up and had to downsize from 200..

Well, you know... in these tough economic times, the Federal Open Virgins Committee had to adjust the rates a wee bit.

[Teutonic Knight]

72 currently, so many blew themselves up that Allah couldn't keep up and had to downsize from 200..

Sad newz for Ahmedists, really sad  but women still can be virgin at 85 
or pussy could be restitch & be "virgin" again 

Where in that Koran is mentioned #.72 & way this specific #.