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Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Training Q&A => Topic started by: Yev33 on February 17, 2013, 12:07:30 PM
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I have very rarely done any direct front delt work because I was following the common logic that front delts get plenty of stimulation from all of the pressing movements. I have recently started doing them consistently not necessarily for shoulder development but for overall shoulder health. I have always done direct work for the side delts and the rear delts.
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i do... usually front raises as part of a superset
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I train them, but very rarely.
When I do, it's usually with a short bar on the cable. I stand with my back to the weight stack, and the cable runs between my legs. Done this way, there is still tension on the front delt fibers even at the lowest position.
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Not me...no rear delt work either. Don't train traps directly either.
But if any of the above muscles begging to lag than for sure I'll start hitting them directly.
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Right now I am doing seated front plate raises with a 45 for 3 sets of 9-12 at the end of my pressing workouts. It's early to tell about the long term, but my shoulders are starting to feel better during my pressing movements.
WOOO how has your overall shoulder health been?
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Personally I think that there is something to be said about the importance of isoloation work for muscle groups like shoulders, low back, hamstrings, quads, chest. Not just from a development point of view but for balance and injury prevention. I know that Olympic athletes like gymnasts, weightlifters, throwers, etc. don't use isolation movements like these, but then again most of them are late teens to mid twenties and might not feel the same types of aches and pains as those of us who have been training for 10 years and are around the 30 and over mark.
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Right now I am doing seated front plate raises with a 45 for 3 sets of 9-12 at the end of my pressing workouts. It's early to tell about the long term, but my shoulders are starting to feel better during my pressing movements.
WOOO how has your overall shoulder health been?
i had multiple issues back in my football days (left dislocation and several sprains (sub-locations) of both over the years)... they were uncomfortable into my late 20s but these days they're fine... especially since i started doing yoga regularly... my flexibility is pretty good these days and i never have any pain
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Personally I think that there is something to be said about the importance of isoloation work for muscle groups like shoulders, low back, hamstrings, quads, chest. Not just from a development point of view but for balance and injury prevention. I know that Olympic athletes like gymnasts, weightlifters, throwers, etc. don't use isolation movements like these, but then again most of them are late teens to mid twenties and might not feel the same types of aches and pains as those of us who have been training for 10 years and are around the 30 and over mark.
My left shoulder is messed up and just recently did I consider starting to train my rear delt directly for rehab purposes. What do you think about this though....my right shoulder is and has always been perfectly fine*knock on wood* ...its always been the left one giving me problems on and off ever since I started training years ago.
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i had multiple issues back in my football days (left dislocation and several sprains (sub-locations) of both over the years)... they were uncomfortable into my late 20s but these days they're fine... especially since i started doing yoga regularly... my flexibility is pretty good these days and i never have any pain
ahaha outed!! j.k...
It's like you guys are reading my mind over here. Been doing some physio for both my back and left shoulder recently. It turns out my lower spine looks a little too straight and that is causing me pain. So I'm gonna be doing yoga soon to help with flexibility as the lower back stretching exercises I've been doing have helped with my lower back pain tremendously.
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i've mentioned my fondness for yoga several times :)
ahaha outed!! j.k...
It's like you guys are reading my mind over here. Been doing some physio for both my back and left shoulder recently. It turns out my lower spine looks a little too straight and that is causing me pain. So I'm gonna be doing yoga soon to help with flexibility as the lower back stretching exercises I've been doing have helped with my lower back pain tremendously.
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My left shoulder is messed up and just recently did I consider starting to train my rear delt directly for rehab purposes. What do you think about this though....my right shoulder is and has always been perfectly fine*knock on wood* ...its always been the left one giving me problems on and off ever since I started training years ago.
Everyone inevitably favors one side over the other (to some extent) when doing barbell and even dumbell work so it makes sense to not have an issue with both shoulders, or perhaps one more than the other.
The front, rear, and side delts are relatively small muscle groups compared to the pecs and lats, so I think to say that the 3 delt heads get plenty of work from pressing and rowing might be wishful thinking. In my expirience to properly hit them you have to make it a point to concentrate on them and it's a bit counter productive trying to concentrate on the rear delts when you are doing a heavy set of bent over rows.
This whole thing started to get my attention when I did a 3 times a week full body routine at the beginning of last year. The majority of my isolation work that I used to do got cut out. I started noticing a slight pain in my right shoulder after several months. I didn't think much of it at the time. Then after 5 months I switched back to my usual training and the slight pain went away. Back in last August I decided to do another cycle of full body training, this time it was my left shoulder that started to give me problems. But this wasn't a slight pain, this was damn near a full blown injury. Since then, I have dropped the full body training and my shoulder is getting better and better.
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i've mentioned my fondness for yoga several times :)
Nothing wrong with yoga, if it keeps you injury free and improves your joint and ligament health the joke is on the "tough guys" who are getting injured.
I have been meaning to look into doing some yoga myself.
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Nothing wrong with yoga, if it keeps you injury free and improves your joint and ligament health the joke is on the "tough guys" who are getting injured.
I have been meaning to look into doing some yoga myself.
you'll love it... the chicks are hot and they are happy to have you join in
basic yoga is pretty easy if you are in shape but the advanced poses are both challenging and satisfying
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Everyone inevitably favors one side over the other (to some extent) when doing barbell and even dumbell work so it makes sense to not have an issue with both shoulders, or perhaps one more than the other.
The front, rear, and side delts are relatively small muscle groups compared to the pecs and lats, so I think to say that the 3 delt heads get plenty of work from pressing and rowing might be wishful thinking. In my expirience to properly hit them you have to make it a point to concentrate on them and it's a bit counter productive trying to concentrate on the rear delts when you are doing a heavy set of bent over rows.
This whole thing started to get my attention when I did a 3 times a week full body routine at the beginning of last year. The majority of my isolation work that I used to do got cut out. I started noticing a slight pain in my right shoulder after several months. I didn't think much of it at the time. Then after 5 months I switched back to my usual training and the slight pain went away. Back in last August I decided to do another cycle of full body training, this time it was my left shoulder that started to give me problems. But this wasn't a slight pain, this was damn near a full blown injury. Since then, I have dropped the full body training and my shoulder is getting better and better.
Just by visually looking at my delts I would think that the lack of direct work is not a problem. Either way I'm gonna start doing direct work on lateral and front heads to see if theres any relief in shoulder discomfort. Not really looking for growth though especially in the rear delt...hoping light sets of 15 will be enough.
you'll love it... the chicks are hot and they are happy to have you join in
basic yoga is pretty easy if you are in shape but the advanced poses are both challenging and satisfying
I'm pretty stiff...don't know if I'll be able to perform...the yoga.
Seriously though, I'm very inflexible atm. My cardio is up there but flexibility has never been a priority...just realizing now how important it is.
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I'm pretty stiff...don't know if I'll be able to perform...the yoga.
Seriously though, I'm very inflexible atm. My cardio is up there but flexibility has never been a priority...just realizing now how important it is.
takes weeks to feel 'normal' but it's good shit
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takes weeks to feel 'normal' but it's good shit
Gotta start somewhere right...
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Just by visually looking at my delts I would think that the lack of direct work is not a problem. Either way I'm gonna start doing direct work on lateral and front heads to see if theres any relief in shoulder discomfort. Not really looking for growth though especially in the rear delt...hoping light sets of 15 will be enough.
Personally I am not really doing this in terms of development either. I just know that muscle imbalances can cause issues and pain, so from that perspective I want to try and see how this works out. I know a lot of people with shoulder issues and discomfort and I rarely see anyone do any direct front delt work.
I have done my fair share of stupid shit in the gym like doing heavy 4 rep max sets on incline and flat dumbell presses, but I also have always made it a point to have a balance between my back work and pressing as well as direct rear delt work. So I guess when I compare myself to others I know my shoulder health is in damn good shape. But I also know that discomfort is a sign of worse issues down the road so I am trying to be proactive.
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you'll love it... the chicks are hot and they are happy to have you join in
basic yoga is pretty easy if you are in shape but the advanced poses are both challenging and satisfying
Haha, with my work schedule though a yoga dvd may be the best option.
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Personally I am not really doing this in terms of development either. I just know that muscle imbalances can cause issues and pain, so from that perspective I want to try and see how this works out. I know a lot of people with shoulder issues and discomfort and I rarely see anyone do any direct front delt work.
I have done my fair share of stupid shit in the gym like doing heavy 4 rep max sets on incline and flat dumbell presses, but I also have always made it a point to have a balance between my back work and pressing as well as direct rear delt work. So I guess when I compare myself to others I know my shoulder health is in damn good shape. But I also know that discomfort is a sign of worse issues down the road so I am trying to be proactive.
I like to do a little rotator cuff work prior to pressing. I prefer doing external rotations using a cable/handle as opposed to the bands because the tension is uniform throughout. I also like doing unilateral Cuban presses with a light plate. These movements help warm and stretch/loosen the area a bit, as well as flush some fluids into the region.
The combination of elasticity, warmth, blood, and synovial fluid makes my delts feel nice and tight (in the good sense) while pressing.
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Personally I am not really doing this in terms of development either. I just know that muscle imbalances can cause issues and pain, so from that perspective I want to try and see how this works out. I know a lot of people with shoulder issues and discomfort and I rarely see anyone do any direct front delt work.
I have done my fair share of stupid shit in the gym like doing heavy 4 rep max sets on incline and flat dumbell presses, but I also have always made it a point to have a balance between my back work and pressing as well as direct rear delt work. So I guess when I compare myself to others I know my shoulder health is in damn good shape. But I also know that discomfort is a sign of worse issues down the road so I am trying to be proactive.
I hear ya brother good luck with that.
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I agree 100% with Yev33 who really has hit the nail on the head. you should work all 3 heads of the delts and not just a BB/DB press. I also started to do A plate front raise(holding plate in my hands) thanks to njflex( steve) and his advice in the Mature thread. Tri sets are perfect for delts(in my humble opinion) ;D
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Haha, with my work schedule though a yoga dvd may be the best option.
YouTube and downloads dude.
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you cant isolate any of the 3 heads, jst like you cant isolate upper or lower pecs.
the muscle as a whole grows or it doesnt.
and even if you could, benchpress and military press hit the front very hard, rows hit the rear very hard.
Did you even bother to read all of the posts in this thread or did you just read the thread title and decide to bless us with your opinion?
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I like to do a little rotator cuff work prior to pressing. I prefer doing external rotations using a cable/handle as opposed to the bands because the tension is uniform throughout. I also like doing unilateral Cuban presses with a light plate. These movements help warm and stretch/loosen the area a bit, as well as flush some fluids into the region.
The combination of elasticity, warmth, blood, and synovial fluid makes my delts feel nice and tight (in the good sense) while pressing.
This is something I should have been doing years ago.
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I do my rotator cuff after training. I wouldn't want those little stabilizer muscles weak when I press. I'm thinking about doing some yoga because I'm as stiff as a board. Besides I could be the only guy in the class.
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WOOO: you only doing Hatha Yoga, including Pranic practice? Might find Ayurvedic of interest. Been involved, on and off, since a teenagers. Interesting stuff. Where I have gone for Hatha, everyone wears white loose Hindu style clothes. The mind is on the pain reflex of some of the position holds, not letting the mind wander to other more delights..like some amazing women (MILF's mostly). As we know, certain breathing meditations increase the sexual power to a much higher degree. (any time, any where)
Galeniko is completely correct, about not having isolation of a specific muscle (as the delt structure was noted). The body acts as a total unit; action (cause) and counter action (effect). Even when you think your doing strict, isolation curls, the triceps are still brought into he action. If injecting a muscle numbing agent into the heads of the triceps, doing a simple curl may prove to be a difficult task.
Any overhead pressing recruits all three heads of the delts, as well as the traps strongly. Any form of arm raises (front, side, rear) also requires all three delt heads. Raising the hand above shoulder level, calls upon the traps to give aid. Good Luck
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so i guess Larry Scott was wasting his time... ::) you can throw stress on an area of a muscle group. look at crunches and full sit ups for example. Donīt tell me they are not diffrent or a Barbell row works your back like a pullover.. Doing a few Basic exercises will not develop a muscle group fully. Explain to me why all the Champions all did? or can you tell me a Mr O winner who just did a few basic presses and won any major competition. we are talking Bodybuilding not powerlifting. I suspect even powerlifters do isolation moves to avoid injury too, also if you have a weak area in a muscle group how will you "specialize"? more presses right? rubbish.
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Total isolation is considered impossible, but specific exercises can certainly emphasize a particular aspect of a muscle over others. That's one reason that a variety of exercises is usually needed for complete development - especially in larger muscles.
I'm familiar with the arguments like, "either all parts of a muscle contract, or none at all." While true, consider any anatomy chart, which clearly depicts the striations of many skeletal muscles traveling in different directions and even through different planes.
It's not hard to believe that different movements will yield a different effect on the same muscle.
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The whole point of the actual isolation of a muscle seems to to be totally confused again. Not a question of the BB row working like the pullover the same way...nothing to do with the original concept. Put it simple...like apples & oranges.
May be too much male hero worship of these "champs" is over riding simple basic logic. And a great big, Good Luck.
Montague: True, it's the all or nothing principle of a muscle group. Isolation can be a incorrect term, with too much of a common use among lifters. Perhaps focus may develop into a better term. Lateral raises hit the lateral head quite well, but that is not the only area that may receive development.....within the shoulder girdle and traps. Different approaches to the same exercise/movement (lateral raises here) used can yield different focused results. A different bend to the elbow/wrist, angle, grip and even finger position can reap a different response towards muscle growth. Even a strict vs cheat or one arm at a time performance can make a difference.
I'm planning to see your remarks again posted by someone, with "This" added at the bottom.
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worship...I respect men like Bill pearl yes. Your arrogance is never ending. I mean you know better than all the champion bodybuilders..hell. you can rewrite bodybuilding.
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Montague: True, it's the all or nothing principle of a muscle group. Isolation can be a incorrect term, with too much of a common use among lifters. Perhaps focus may develop into a better term. Lateral raises hit the lateral head quite well, but that is not the only area that may receive development.....within the shoulder girdle and traps. Different approaches to the same exercise/movement (lateral raises here) used can yield different focused results. A different bend to the elbow/wrist, angle, grip and even finger position can reap a different response towards muscle growth. Even a strict vs cheat or one arm at a time performance can make a difference.
Yeah, I think that the literal interpretation of semantics necessitates a more appropriate choice of kinesiological terminology.
In other words... terms like "focus" and "emphasize" are gooder than "isolation." ;D
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Never rewrite BB'ing, it's all out there, has been for years and pretty simple stuff..really.
Though if it was rewitten, some would have to have their male nurse read it to them..helping to understand where they went wrong.
Good Luck
Montague: Yes, gooder would be cool'er. (Too much time on my hands today........thought surf is starting to give some better breakers)
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Montague: Yes, gooder would be cool'er. (Too much time on my hands today........thought surf is starting to give some better breakers)
Same here. This morning I was finally able to turn off my pager after being on call all last week, and I'm completely off today. Hit delts, tri's, and bi's. Have already eaten 6 eggs, pb on wheat toast, 1 large stuffed pepper, 1 Met-Rx shake, creatine, BCAA's, and 2 coffees.
Time now to go back for more. I LOVE being at home on a weekday! ;D
Watch those waves!!!
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as for the comment about the Biceps and triceps.. Biceps muscle Shortens is contracted and trained the Triceps antagonistic muscle Lengthens but is not worked.. so therefor is not trained. so the goal of training the Bicep is reached.
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Never rewrite BB'ing, it's all out there, has been for years and pretty simple stuff..really.
Though if it was rewitten, some would have to have their male nurse read it to them..helping to understand where they went wrong.
Good Luck
Montague: Yes, gooder would be cool'er. (Too much time on my hands today........thought surf is starting to give some better breakers)
well you must know about male nurses because only you mentioned it.
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You guys are too much!! 8)
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all in good fun mate... ;D
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too much testosterone in here
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time to get the f@cking gloves on...
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this board is still far better than it was under dumpster
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this is not opinion, its fact, you knuckledragger.
you cant isolate parts of any muscle.
want big shoulders ,do military presses.
very simple.
show me the guy who build huge shoulders with frontal raises,lmfao.
Read the thread and then comment
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want big shoulders ,do military presses.
and yet you reject squats and deadlifts?
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Isn't it ironic that the guy who starts his own thread here about his shoulder issues won't bother to read through a thread that is mainly about that?
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Isn't it ironic that the guy who starts his own thread here about his shoulder issues won't bother to read through a thread that is mainly about that?
i think you should do 2 sets of front raises before every meal
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What about after? No stone unturned right? ;D
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What about after? No stone unturned right? ;D
lifting heavy stones is also an excellent shoulder training movement, i remember several older gentlemen getting a lot of value out of single arm stone lifts, IMO stones make for great lifting tools and can literally be free. Good Luck
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lifting heavy stones is also an excellent shoulder training movement, i remember several older gentlemen getting a lot of value out of single arm stone lifts, IMO stones make for great lifting tools and can literally be free. Good Luck
Haha, I see what you did there. Well played sir, well played.
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Haha, I see what you did there. Well played sir, well played.
i can't help myself sometimes... i love JPM
but i love being an asshole even more
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so i guess Larry Scott was wasting his time... ::) you can throw stress on an area of a muscle group. look at crunches and full sit ups for example. Donīt tell me they are not diffrent or a Barbell row works your back like a pullover.. Doing a few Basic exercises will not develop a muscle group fully. Explain to me why all the Champions all did? or can you tell me a Mr O winner who just did a few basic presses and won any major competition. we are talking Bodybuilding not powerlifting. I suspect even powerlifters do isolation moves to avoid injury too, also if you have a weak area in a muscle group how will you "specialize"? more presses right? rubbish.
Donny.....you are spot on..... You have to include the side laterals and rear laterals for complete shoulder development. My 2 cents.
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I know that Olympic athletes like gymnasts, weightlifters, throwers, etc. don't use isolation movements like these, but then again most of them are late teens to mid twenties and might not feel the same types of aches and pains as those of us who have been training for 10 years and are around the 30 and over mark.
Not true. There's a big thread somewhere on Pendlay's forum about a guy that went to China to train with the Olympic lifters. They swear by leg extensions for knee health and also do a lot of 'bodybuilder' work after training their main lifts. Below is gold medalist Lu Xiaojun hitting some laterals for example:
And on topic...
I had to go to physical therapy in the last couple years to figure out a scapular instability issue. I worked with a few PT's that regularly work with MLB players to remedy their shoulder problems, and the first thing they had me do was a lot of front/side/rear raises. It was just one piece of my overall program that rehabbed my shoulder, but I definitely notice a difference not doing them at least in a warmup before pressing work. My shoulder feels normal the first time in 7+ years doing this.
And on a broscience note, my front delts 'pop' more when including front raises. Most would roll their eyes at this but I notice a difference. Yates swore by front raises and said you simply can't get full development out of the delts by just relying on presses. I never agreed with this and thought it made zero sense on paper until I tried it myself.
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first of all Yev33 is a good poster. Thank you for this post and maybe some will listen to you. you have to train every aspect of a muscle group.
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Yes, as Prizm suggest, most lifting athletes (Pl'ers & Olympic lifters) use assistance movements, as part of their training. Including gymnast and track and field athletes. Even the Chinese Ping Pong team's included squats in their training programs. DB joint extensions exercises are also very important. This would include front, side and rear DB work. Some even use manual resistance from their coaches.
If wanting to follow another dimension for front and side raises, than rather then only going to shoulder height, continue to completely overhead. Above shoulder height the traps are called upon strongly, also the shoulder joints and flexibility can be improved. Quite a lot of shoulder problems can be traced to lack of joint/muscle flexibility/stiffness. Lower slowly and in control from the overhead position. Good Luck.
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Not true. There's a big thread somewhere on Pendlay's forum about a guy that went to China to train with the Olympic lifters. They swear by leg extensions for knee health and also do a lot of 'bodybuilder' work after training their main lifts. Below is gold medalist Lu Xiaojun hitting some laterals for example:
And on topic...
I had to go to physical therapy in the last couple years to figure out a scapular instability issue. I worked with a few PT's that regularly work with MLB players to remedy their shoulder problems, and the first thing they had me do was a lot of front/side/rear raises. It was just one piece of my overall program that rehabbed my shoulder, but I definitely notice a difference not doing them at least in a warmup before pressing work. My shoulder feels normal the first time in 7+ years doing this.
And on a broscience note, my front delts 'pop' more when including front raises. Most would roll their eyes at this but I notice a difference. Yates swore by front raises and said you simply can't get full development out of the delts by just relying on presses. I never agreed with this and thought it made zero sense on paper until I tried it myself.
That's a great post, that's kind of what I was wondering about front raises as far as shoulder health movement.
On the topic of oly lifters, obviously not everyone is going to train exactly the same. I am going of off what someone who was on the Soviet Union national weightlifting team experienced in his training. Supposedly the Bulgarians used a similar approach to isolation work from what he told me.
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nah they get plenty of work from a variety of other movements