Author Topic: 1 set falure (Read 5949 times)

Slin1 · « **on:** October 18, 2009, 12:16:08 PM »

Do you thick one set to absolute failure is enuff for maximum growth for each exercise?

And do you find it best to do severer sett on you max load or do you pyramid

jprc10 · « **Reply #1 on:** October 18, 2009, 12:46:33 PM »

For me its not enough, I do about 3-4 sets to failure on a workout, but it varies from workout to workout.

I like pyramiding to certain weight and then do 2-3 sets on that weight.

YoungBlood · « **Reply #2 on:** October 19, 2009, 08:15:05 AM »

This has been a hotly debated topic for decades. The old "Arnold Vs. Metzner" debate. Yates brought the popular argument back too, since he was really one of the first (if not THE first) to be an Olympian winner while doing HIT, but he also never did HIT in it's true sense.
Hell, for that matter, neither did Metzner! Yates would always do a couple of sets prior to acclimate his muscles for the lift and then use his last set as "one all out set."
And when you say "one all out set," I'm hoping you do not mean "walk in the gym and just lift 405lbs on the bench without warm-ups?"
I think there's far too many muscle fibers left to exhaust, even after an all out set....in a nutshell.

dyslexic · « **Reply #3 on:** October 19, 2009, 09:37:55 PM »

Mentzer was extremely talented at manipulating your mind with his logic, analogies, science and objectivity.

Whether one set to absolute failure is productive for you is a completely different story.

I have most all of his books. I still follow John Little's writing, but there is a time and a place for moderate weight, moderately heavy weight, light weight, high reps, low reps and whatever else you can come up with.

Mike wanted you to believe that he and Arthur Jones had the absolute answer to maximal muscle growth in the shortest period of time. Unfortunately neither Mike nor Arthur are around to discuss their theories with us anymore...

jpm101 · « **Reply #4 on:** October 20, 2009, 08:39:26 AM »

Lots of theory material on Art Jones ideas, written by himself in his somewhat famous white papers. Lucky enough to read them when I was a teenager. Mentzer (along with brother Ray) also has much material floating around on the internet. A few sport training labs find them helpful, as; colleges, research departments, etc..

Probably the original concept of the 1 set to complete failure was begun with the breathing squat program. Added a lot of muscle mass to a lot of men over the years. 20 reps (or more) starting the sets with 3 heavy deep breaths. When reaching the last 18 to 20 reps, will probably need 6 to 8 very hard breaths. This would be a version of the old Rest-Pause system, with the time it takes, between reps, for the extended heavy breathing.

All this is geared towards whole body compound exercises. Example would be, squats (as mentioned), Dl's, C&J,C&P, cleans/hi-pulls, etc.. BP's,overhead presses, curls, etc., for example, seem to fall short for max gains. The one exception, for me anyway, is the bent arm pullover & press for 20 reps. An exceptional method for increasing the mass of the upper body.

Only time anyone might try going to complete failure is with a one set 20 rep program. There is positive , momentary, negative and complete failure. Actually, if you work hard enough, all or most of these can be accomplished in one total set of 20, or more, reps. The CNS will be fried.The oxygen debt exhausted. Intensity of the highest order. Good Luck.

Bobby · « **Reply #5 on:** October 20, 2009, 09:58:36 AM »

why do you want to do only one set? you don't like working out?

it could maybe be enough if you have a spotter that lifts more and more of the weight for you so you can go on and on. But do 1 set 10reps and be done, no way.

dyslexic · « **Reply #6 on:** November 16, 2009, 12:31:28 AM »

Once someone has mastered the art of failing (that is 100% failure) in each portion of the rep, the trainee can then decide afte some time whether or not it is productive and efficient for him.

Most experienced trainers have tweaked the HIT program to fit their personal reality in the gym. SOmething that has gone out of its way to remove all subjectivity in theory may sound good, but it doesnt feel right.

A few more sets will alwyas be beggin for more.

Montague · « **Reply #7 on:** November 16, 2009, 04:47:49 AM »

Quote from: jpm101 on October 20, 2009, 08:39:26 AM

Probably the original concept of the 1 set to complete failure was begun with the breathing squat program. Added a lot of muscle mass to a lot of men over the years. 20 reps (or more) starting the sets with 3 heavy deep breaths. When reaching the last 18 to 20 reps, will probably need 6 to 8 very hard breaths. This would be a version of the old Rest-Pause system, with the time it takes, between reps, for the extended heavy breathing.

I’m going to try this principle for a few different exercises.

To be certain:
At what point do the breathing pauses begin?
Am I doing them after the first rep, or only when I start to fatigue?
And during the pauses, do you rack the weight or keep tension on the muscle?

How often do you incorporate this method – monthly, weekly, etc.?

davie · « **Reply #8 on:** November 16, 2009, 06:48:24 AM »

After getting some info from JPM overa year ago, i tried this....Its almost as much a mental thing as a physical, actually more so!

You pick a weight u could get 10 reps with, not an easy 10, but a weight ud usually use for a tough set of 10.....but u keep going until u get 20reps.

The way i did it (and this may be wrong and JPM will let me know if i am) was id take 1 deep breathe between reps 1-4, 2 deep breathes between reps 5-8, 3 between reps 9-12....4 between reps 13-16, and then as many as it was neccessary after that until i finished the set. The reason i made it structured with the breathing was to give mind something to focus on besides the pain of squatting....Rather than standing there taking wee short breathes second guessing myself as to wether i could do the next rep....id take the breathes i was meant to be taking and just squat.

Davie

JasonH · « **Reply #9 on:** November 16, 2009, 03:54:25 PM »

I don't think one set max is enough - I did it for years with minimal results and as soon as I switched to three/four sets per exercise I started gaining again.

Montague · « **Reply #10 on:** November 16, 2009, 05:14:55 PM »

Quote from: davie on November 16, 2009, 06:48:24 AM

The way i did it (and this may be wrong and JPM will let me know if i am) was id take 1 deep breathe between reps 1-4, 2 deep breathes between reps 5-8, 3 between reps 9-12....4 between reps 13-16, and then as many as it was neccessary after that until i finished the set.

Okay.
Thanks.

Quote from: davie on November 16, 2009, 06:48:24 AM

The reason i made it structured with the breathing was to give mind something to focus on besides the pain of squatting....

Slin1 · « **Reply #11 on:** November 17, 2009, 02:39:26 PM »

Quote from: Slin1 on October 18, 2009, 12:16:08 PM

Do you thick one set to absolute failure is enuff for maximum growth for each exercise?

And do you find it best to do severer sett on you max load or do you pyramid

That is a very old question that every one wants to know but no1 has a correct answer just guesses/Teories. It is the same as asking is we alone in the universe

I stop just before failure on all the setts Sept the last one on every exercise and i pyramid down so my last set to failure is only 3-5reps

dyslexic · « **Reply #12 on:** November 17, 2009, 09:55:51 PM »

So many controversies...

So little time. By the time you have the answer, you won't care anymore.

_bruce_ · « **Reply #13 on:** November 18, 2009, 05:12:13 AM »

Quote from: dyslexic on November 17, 2009, 09:55:51 PM

So many controversies...

So little time. By the time you have the answer, you won't care anymore.

Sad, but true

The one set max approach didn't work for me.
I'm way better off doing 5x5, 3x8 schemes plus adding minimal weight while avoiding failure ...

...it may be a CNS thing - mine is pretty much shot because of years of depression/paranoia, so any additional stress has to be eliminated...

local hero · « **Reply #14 on:** November 18, 2009, 08:49:42 AM »

ive trained the one set way for a very long time, from time to time i add some volume for a change,, but always drift back to it,,, i just respond better mentaly and physicaly to building up to one propper set, then moving onto the next movement..

each to there own..

oldtimer1 · « **Reply #15 on:** November 18, 2009, 06:31:01 PM »

It works but it's a tough way to train as an exclusive method. How long can you do one set of a bench to failure before you're banging your head against the wall? If you have been lifting for say 5 years and you fail at one set of 6 reps with 275lbs will next week bring 7 reps? How long can you increase weight or reps before they put you in a rubber room?

I experienced great gains doing a routine similar to Yates four day split. It becomes very hard to week in and week out trying to beat your last weeks workout. If you have been training for years it becomes a trying experience.

I think a good way is to use both volume and intensity routines. One set to failure after warm up on an exercise becomes physical and psychologically exhausting. I wouldn't follow a such a routine for more than one month for an experienced trainer. For a new trainer a much longer period can be used.

local hero · « **Reply #16 on:** November 20, 2009, 08:52:16 AM »

tp be fair,,, if your training for a long time, your going to be banging your head as far as poundages go anyway.. ive given up trying to chase huge numbers a long time ago, i realy couldnt care less what i lift now, long as it feels good..

buffbong · « **Reply #17 on:** November 21, 2009, 03:26:23 PM »

Makes alot of sense those routines are awsome but like was stated a experienced lifter gets burnt after a couple weeks. Some problems with extremly low volume is that if you add wieght and dont push out many reps your workout is pretty much garbage. A good alternative to hit is the modified routines most use now. I use ten sets toal for big bodyparts and 4-6 for the small groups. One other problem is you can always jump into the heaviest wieght for exersizes you do after.
Example of my chest and tri routine
Incline dumbell presses 1x10 warm up 3x8-10
Flat dumbell presses 3x8-10
Dips 10-8-8

Lying e-z bar ext 10-8-6
Seated dumbell ext 2x12

Takes one hour to complete and im smoked.

dyslexic · « **Reply #18 on:** November 21, 2009, 08:35:25 PM »

Of course, there is always the fact that you might just enjoy working out and getting a killer pump at the gym.

1 set to failure really doesn't take too long and sure doesn't give you much of a pump. I like higher volume, but I can recite Mike Mentzer's writings verbatim. The objective scientific theory sounds great... in theory. For me, it just doesnt translate well in the gym.

For me it's about high intensity training. I train hard and fast. I train to exhaustion. There are many means to an end, and the patented HIT ain't it for me.

High Intensity training for me means that I can't go forever, but I can sure as hell do more than 1 set. Mike always said that duration and intensity were in an inverse ratio, one to the other. I just translate it differently than he did.

jprc10 · « **Reply #19 on:** November 23, 2009, 04:42:09 AM »

Quote from: dyslexic on November 21, 2009, 08:35:25 PM

Of course, there is always the fact that you might just enjoy working out and getting a killer pump at the gym.

1 set to failure really doesn't take too long and sure doesn't give you much of a pump. I like higher volume, but I can recite Mike Mentzer's writings verbatim. The objective scientific theory sounds great... in theory. For me, it just doesnt translate well in the gym.

For me it's about high intensity training. I train hard and fast. I train to exhaustion. There are many means to an end, and the patented HIT ain't it for me.

High Intensity training for me means that I can't go forever, but I can sure as hell do more than 1 set. Mike always said that duration and intensity were in an inverse ratio, one to the other. I just translate it differently than he did.

I agree with this, I think in the same way.

jpm101 · « **Reply #20 on:** November 23, 2009, 09:54:30 AM »

Of course there is always the fact that you might enjoy working out and getting a Killer Pump by running head first against a wall. But any kind of pump never means muscle growth, just that there is clogged blood in a muscle area. Or always working to exhaustion, or failure, is any benefit at all for gaining strength or muscle mass. Actually it may hinder progress, placing too much demand of recovery from that form of trauma.

My view only: One set directed to a muscle area does hold value, but certainly not for everyone. It would be the only exception of going to momentary or complete failure when training. One set,of a compound exercise with max weight of 20 reps or more, is very demanding work. Taking the CNS to the extreme. Not too many guy's want, or should, work this hard.

This is not the true Mentzer way of one set extremes. Built more around the breathing squat (form of rest/pause) for 20 rep idea. Of course most guy's will try to adapt this to a easier form like 2 sets of 10, lighter weigh or not following the correct pattern of breathing (hard and deep). Can use DL, cleans, etc, not just squats. Athletes use a form of this when having to gain weight for their sport.

Not the only way to train, just another in many porductive training schemes. Could be worth a go, but not for the faint of heart. Good Luck.

YoungBlood · « **Reply #21 on:** November 23, 2009, 10:20:12 AM »

I find it too short of time having the muscle fibers exposed to tension, for them to adapt how BBers prefer.
1 Set can certainly provide good relief from high volume of training, and that is where I feel it is most beneficial when placed in your training phase correctly. Example, do a high amount of sets upwards of 20 (I'm speaking for a natural, purely as a basis to have a discourse) and continue this scheme for 6-8 weeks. Then you back off doing 1-3 sets to absolute failure. Your first 1-2 sets will be more of a warm-up and acclimate to the lift. Then you use your third set with everything you can throw at yourself; drop sets, negatives, forced negs, one & a quarters, etc...

If you only use one set to failure, I believe it's too brief amount of time that your muscles cannot get the repeated stimulus I find so important to growth. If you wait around for 3-5min after your one HIT-like set, you'll be able to do another set comparable. But the same can be said for any high volume training too, so there is definitely a point of diminishing returns.

Ah...I think I'm losing focus of my original intent in this post...

dyslexic · « **Reply #22 on:** November 25, 2009, 12:37:34 AM »

I believe there were a few other theories about the extreme pump and the expansion of the tough fibers of muscle fascia... also some increased capillary growth.

I've done my share of HIT training to the fucking "T" keeping diligent records and progress reports. I've also done a shitload of Westside training with all the gimmicks and bought tons of Coan, Katzmier and the Blakely Seventh level training material. I've trained powerlifters and have trained like a powerlifter. I have maxed my lifts over time. I also realize the importance and superior strength of the posterior chain.

For me, my empirical data says: more sets, more frequency, high intensity, and more pump.

If you can manage to be observant enough to incorporate the benefits you received from each style of training into your routine, you are where you need to be. You ain't gonna get anywhere without experimenting and becoming more knowledgeable about physiology, biomechanics, kinesiology, science, nutrition, and pure effort.

Deal with it.

Powerlifting alone is for powerlifters...

Foolish, if you arent getting paid for it. Benefit to risk ratio says you are an ass. It also says that one day you will deal with injuries and pain that you wish you never had.

You wanna look like a big fat wannabe pig and be able to lift a house, go for it. Me, I prefer to be big, ripped, educated and un-injured.

YoungBlood · « **Reply #23 on:** November 25, 2009, 08:54:46 AM »

Quote

I believe there were a few other theories about the extreme pump and the expansion of the tough fibers of muscle fascia... also some increased capillary growth.

I've done my share of HIT training to the fucking "T" keeping diligent records and progress reports. I've also done a shitload of Westside training with all the gimmicks and bought tons of Coan, Katzmier and the Blakely Seventh level training material. I've trained powerlifters and have trained like a powerlifter. I have maxed my lifts over time. I also realize the importance and superior strength of the posterior chain.

For me, my empirical data says: more sets, more frequency, high intensity, and more pump.

If you can manage to be observant enough to incorporate the benefits you received from each style of training into your routine, you are where you need to be. You ain't gonna get anywhere without experimenting and becoming more knowledgeable about physiology, biomechanics, kinesiology, science, nutrition, and pure effort.

I agree. I've studied quite a bit of books and the like, as you have-not as in depth perhaps but I've done enough and more than the usual "sign up for a membership and lift" kind of guy.
The one point that people always seem to miss, and not saying that you missed it but you have not mentioned it, is what your training program looks like when incorporating HIT and where in your "training career" that you decide to use it.

People will make gains from doing HIT. They'll make gains from doing high volume routines. The make gains from doing a lot of HIT set-extending techniques. But ALL of these gains eventually STOP after a certain amount of time.
And that is where everybody should look, but they never do.

dyslexic · « **Reply #24 on:** November 25, 2009, 08:27:25 PM »

Sometimes I just stay up too late and post while I'm half asleep.

I forgot to mention plain and simple "time under tension"-- there is a shitload of evidence that suggests this is the bottom line... that, and of course, nutrition, genetics and hormones (one and the same?)

I sounded like an ass toward JPM. Got nothing but respect for him. I was just too tired to re-read and edit.

There are no simple answers in this game. You have to put your time in and see for yourself. If there were only one means to an end, I'm sure we would have all heard of it by now.

I did state "what works for me" and Mike Mentzer would have scoffed at me for this statement.