Author Topic: Dow Crash Coming To Your 401K (2007 to 2022)  (Read 462187 times)

Bindare_Dundat

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Re: Dow Crash coming to your 401k (**Strictly Moderated--SEE FIRST POST**)
« Reply #2350 on: August 24, 2010, 04:40:05 PM »
existing home sales down a record -27.2%

watch for PPT to hold Dow above 10k



-NT

wow! 

Bindare_Dundat

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Re: Dow Crash coming to your 401k (**Strictly Moderated--SEE FIRST POST**)
« Reply #2351 on: August 24, 2010, 06:15:16 PM »

loco

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Re: Dow Crash coming to your 401k (**Strictly Moderated--SEE FIRST POST**)
« Reply #2352 on: August 25, 2010, 05:47:25 AM »
"Mineral field depleted"

"Insufficient Vespene gas"

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Re: Dow Crash coming to your 401k (**Strictly Moderated--SEE FIRST POST**)
« Reply #2353 on: August 25, 2010, 08:08:36 AM »
The Recession Is Over, Welcome To The Depression
By Lou Scatignaon August 25th, 2010 | Permalink


The Recession Is Over, Welcome To The Depression
By Lou Scatigna

________________________ ________________________ _____


Recent economic numbers reflect serious problems with the U.S. economy. On Tuesday the National Association Of Realtors announced the largest drop in existing home sales since 1968 when they began to keep such records. This happened in one of the stronger months for home sales, and with deflated prices and record low mortgage rates. Most economists expected about a 13% decline but they missed the mark by far as existing home sales dropped a whopping 27%.

So why did home sales drop so much in July? Well part of it was demand pushed forward to get the government bribe in the form of the $8,000 or $6,500 tax credit. But the main reason home sales plunged is because Americans have no confidence in the economy or their government’s ability to fix it. Last week, first time claims for unemployment “unexpectedly” rose to 500,000, a number you would only see in a rapidly declining economy not one in “recovery”. If you don’t have a job or are concerned that you may lose the one you have, you are not going to go out and buy a home no matter how low interest rates go.

The average American is finally “getting it”, they realize that the American economy is broken in a way they have not experienced in their lifetime. For the first time in decades American families are paying down debt instead of piling more on. Fearful of future job losses, many are putting money away for a rainy day instead of spending it on new car or expensive vacation. Retail sales are suffering and will continue to slow as the economy falls into the abyss of economic Depression. With the housing market plunging, unemployment at almost depressionary levels (if we count discouraged and part time workers we are already there), foreclosures at record highs, bankruptcies rising, people just can not spend money on anything they don’t really need. Since the consumer is 70% of the U.S. economy, when the consumer pulls back, the economy follows and declines as well. Last week a friend of mine who owns a furniture store that has been in business for 81 years announced that he is closing his doors. He said the last two years were the worst the store ever experienced…IN 81YEARS!

Stock prices have begun to sense the destruction ahead. As more “unexpected” weak numbers are announced investors will run for the hills and we will experience the most brutal stock market decline in decades. The loss of wealth in the market will further depress economic activity. I would lower my stock market exposure immediately if overexposed to equities, the next leg down is going to be brutal I fear.

The Federal Reserve will continue to try to stimulate through further asset purchases and liquidity injections under QE2 but it will fail to achieve the desired result. After a period of deflation, confidence in the U.S. Dollar will decline and we will experience a real currency crisis and perhaps a dreaded hyper-inflationary period. After the housing numbers were released on Tuesday morning gold moved from $1,205 to $1,235/ounce, only $30 from it’s all time high hit early this summer. Gold knows that the only thing the Fed can do is print and print, which is highly inflationary and very dangerous.

My advise is to make sure you have some cash in your home (3-5K) and I would begin to buy a 6 month supply of food and anything else you use everyday (toilet paper, soap, toothpaste etc.). I don’t want to sound alarmist but it makes sense to have an emergency supply anyway in case of natural disasters, storms or power outages. In the best case, these items will be much more expensive in the future or, in the worst case, not available as people begin to hoard in anticipation of higher prices. “Inflation expectations” can drive demand up resulting in dwindling supply and rapidly rising prices which only feeds the frenzy.

We are now entering a very nasty period, the economic numbers are telling the story and people are starting to listen. Take the proper precautions in all matters financial.


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Re: Dow Crash coming to your 401k (**Strictly Moderated--SEE FIRST POST**)
« Reply #2354 on: August 25, 2010, 09:08:51 AM »
Morgan Stanley Says Government Defaults Inevitable
By Matthew Brown - Aug 25, 2010 11:44 AM ET
SOURCE: BLOOMBERG


________________________ ________________________

Investors will face defaults on government bonds given the burden of aging populations and the difficulty of securing more tax revenue, according to Morgan Stanley.

“Governments will impose a loss on some of their stakeholders,” Arnaud Mares, an executive director at Morgan Stanley in London, wrote in a research report today. “The question is not whether they will renege on their promises, but rather upon which of their promises they will renege, and what form this default will take.” The sovereign-debt crisis is global “and it is not over,” the report said.

Borrowing costs for so-called peripheral euro-region nations such as Greece and Ireland surged today, resuming their ascent on concern that governments won’t be able to narrow their budget deficits. Standard & Poor’s downgraded Ireland’s credit rating yesterday on concern about the rising costs to support nationalized banks.

Mares said debt as a percentage of gross domestic product is a false indicator of an economy’s health given it doesn’t reflect governments’ available revenue and is “backward- looking.” While the U.S. government’s debt is 53 percent of GDP, one of the lowest ratios among developed nations, its debt as a percentage of revenue is 358 percent, one of the highest, the report said. Conversely, Italy has one of the highest debt- to-GDP ratios, at 116 percent, yet has a debt-to-revenue ratio of 188, Mares said.

Double Dip

“Outright sovereign default in large advanced economies remains an extremely unlikely outcome, in our view,” the report said. “But current yields and break-even inflation rates provide very little protection against the credible threat of financial oppression in any form it might take.”

Mares once worked at the U.K.’s Debt Management Office and is a former senior vice-president at credit-rating company Moody’s Investors Service.

“Note that a double-dip recession would not invalidate this conclusion,” Mares’ report said. “It would cause yet further damage to the governments’ power to tax, pushing them further in negative equity and therefore increasing the risks that debt holders suffer a larger loss eventually.”

Investors’ concern that the U.S. may fall back into recession has grown in recent weeks as U.S. economic data missed economists’ estimates. A Citigroup Inc. index of U.S. economic data surprises fell to minus 59 last week, the least since January 2009.

Credit-Default Swaps

A report from the Commerce Department today showed U.S. durable goods orders increased 0.3 percent, compared with the 3 percent median estimate of 75 economists surveyed by Bloomberg News, figures showed today in Washington. The number of unemployment claims unexpectedly shot up by 12,000 to 500,000 in the week ended Aug 14, Labor Department figures showed Aug. 19.

Yields on German and U.S. benchmark securities sank today as investors sought the safest assets. U.S. two-year Treasury yields, at a four-month high 1.18 percent on April 5, fell to a record low 0.4542 percent yesterday.

The yield on Greek debt rose to more than 900 basis points above that of Germany today, the most since the European Union and International Monetary Fund created a 750 billion-euro ($948 billion) bailout package in May. Greece’s so-called yield spread over German debt was at 932 basis points as of 2:18 p.m. in London, short of the 973 basis point record set on May 7. The Irish-German yield spread rose to a record 347 basis points, from 318 points yesterday.

Credit-default swaps that insure Irish government bonds against non-payment for five years rose 21 basis points to 331 today, the most since March 2009, according to data provider CMA. Greek swaps jumped to 921.5, the most since June, from 896.

“The conflict that opposes bondholders to other government stakeholders is more intense than ever, and their interests are no longer sufficiently well-aligned with those of influential political constituencies,” such as elderly voters and their claims on pensions and health insurance, Mares wrote.

To contact the reporter on this story: Matthew Brown in London at mbrown42@bloomberg.net

GigantorX

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Re: Dow Crash coming to your 401k (**Strictly Moderated--SEE FIRST POST**)
« Reply #2355 on: August 25, 2010, 09:15:38 AM »
silly string holds this Market above 10k

be careful


-NT

1020 for the Dow at the moment. Right when the data for housing/durable goods was released you can bet bottom dollar that the Fed/Banks were working in 12th gear to keep this sucker above 10k. With all the horrible news, and it is awful, the Dow being above 10k and the Dow even rebounding for going below 10k is a total joke. This market isn't a market anymore and hasn't been in a very long time. Long Term Investment is now around 5 minutes and short term investment is around however fast the HFT's can go. No more money from "outside" sources into the market because it's broken and the game is about up. It is now purely the TBTF's, Financial Institutions and the Fed.

And I think it's time for us to think of the DOW as a policy tool and nothing more.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Dow Crash coming to your 401k (**Strictly Moderated--SEE FIRST POST**)
« Reply #2356 on: August 25, 2010, 12:52:58 PM »
Financial Expert Warns of Economic Collapse
Gulag Bound ^ | Cliff Kincaid


Posted on Wednesday, August 25, 2010


In shocking news, the New York Times cites figures that investors withdrew $33.12 billion from domestic stock market mutual funds in the first seven months of this year when billions of dollars should have been expected to be flowing in.

The New York Times blames this unusual development on “economic uncertainty.” One explanation is that the financial reform bill pushed by President Obama and passed by Congressional liberals was a complete fraud. The bill failed to protect invested capital, did nothing to stop the devaluation of our homes, and didn’t reform Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the government-sponsored mortgage entities involved in the financial crisis.

As Accuracy in Media has consistently reported, the basic problem is that the regulations that protected investors and their capital were removed, beginning in 2007 under the George W. Bush Administration, and have not been restored.

Zubi Diamond, author of Wizards of Wall Street, has released a new YouTube video highlighting what needs to be done and how the nation got into this predicament. He has focused attention on the notorious hedge fund short sellers who brought on the 2008 economic and financial crisis that paved the way for Barack Obama’s election as president.

These short sellers, such as George Soros, made billions of dollars betting on the collapse of the subprime mortgage industry as ordinary Americans lost their savings.

“They subverted our capitalist system economy in order to achieve a regime change in America. They looted the country and visited financial violence on the American people. American families bear the brunt of the destruction of capitalism and the installation of socialism in their country with job losses, home foreclosures, and retirement portfolio wipe-outs,” Diamond charges.

The major media, he said, have concealed the truth about what has happened from the American people.

He explained, “Most Americans cannot even imagine the fact that this calamitous crisis was deliberately engineered by enemies and traitors within our borders.”

Diamond urged the media to start educating the public about what is happening: “Most people do not know how capitalism works, in terms of the safeguard regulations which protected our capitalist economy. Once you unhinge and unscrew the nuts and bolts, and tear down the underpinnings and remove the safeguard regulations, you have succeeded in dismantling capitalism and killing the economic engine of growth. They are killing the goose that lays the golden egg.”

In response to the Times article about investors fleeing the market, Diamond said, “Who wouldn’t flee the market when you are being robbed every day by the hedge fund short sellers? They are targeting and preying on the small investors. The reality is beginning to sink in as more people and more people realize that the economy is in terrible shape, and it is not going to recover.”

A recovery is possible, Diamond said. But the Congress and the President have to restore the regulations that “protect the invested capital that is needed to create jobs, and to protect the value of our homes and assets. You must restrict short sale transactions, end mark to market accounting completely, restore the old circuit breakers, and restore the old uptick rule to their original condition without any modification.”

His recommendations include:

•Reinstate the uptick rule.
•Remove mark-to-market accounting and replace it with historic cost accounting.
•Dismantle and discontinue trading on all the short Exchange Traded Funds (ETFs), also called leveraged inverse ETFs.
•Reinstate the circuit breakers and the trading curb to kick in whenever the Dow Jones drops 150 points.
•Regulate the hedge funds just like mutual funds and pension funds are regulated.
A powerful film, Stock Shock: The Short Selling of the American Dream, analyzes this phenomenon as it relates to the rise and fall of Sirius XM radio stock. The film asserts that the removal of the uptick rule in 2007 by the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) led to the rise of short selling and stock market manipulation.
Diamond explained how the looting and destruction of the economy have occurred. “To short sell a stock is to sell a stock you do not own. Such a transaction should be governed by a regulation, designed to protect the owners of the stock, their assets and invested capital. That regulation which governed short sale transactions is called the uptick rule or short sale restriction rule.”

He added, “The Managed Funds Association (MFA), the association of hedge fund short sellers, successfully lobbied regulators and policy makers to remove that short sale restriction requirement, meaning they now have the government’s approval to sell what they do not own unrestricted, when they know very well that selling what they do not own is stealing. The only difference is that they are stealing with the approval of the government.”

“Our stock market is a broken market,” Diamond added. “There is no investor confidence because the invested capital is not protected. There is no uptick rule, no circuit breakers and no trading curb. There are no legal protections for the capital. There is no capitalism.”

The stock market, he said, has become “a money manufacturing factory. The commodities being processed are the small investors, retirement portfolios, and mutual fund investors.”

As a result, the small investors are experiencing diminishing returns and losing their appetite for risk.

The Times should explain to its readers the real reason why investors are fleeing the stock market, he said.

“Our publicly traded companies can now be held hostage by the hedge fund short sellers as they continue preying on investors,” he said. “They can evaporate any of the publicly traded companies in short order. They demonstrated that capability in the ‘flash crash’ of May 6, 2010, when they drove down the stock price of Accenture (ticker symbol CAN) from $44 per share to one cent per share in a 15-minute time period.”

The SEC is supposed to be an independent regulatory body to protect the integrity of the market but it is under the control of the Managed Funds Association. “They have rigged and primed the market for manipulation,” Diamond said.

In the past, ordinary Americans could analyze the market and individual companies and invest accordingly. Today, the situation is different.

“Without the short sale restriction regulation, the fundamental attributes of the companies are rendered useless,” he said. “The effective use of technical analysis has been nullified. When it does seem to work, it can be used by the hedge fund short sellers to manipulate the market as they set traps for investors at each fulcrum, resistance or support levels.”

He explained, “You have a market that is very difficult to trade or invest in. This is a market that can do anything, reverse, go up or down, or reverse again with increased volatility as the manipulators are on a search mission, preying on small investors, searching for investment capital to steal.”

Diamond compared the stock market to a Las Vegas casino, where the house always wins. The MFA is the house in today’s market. “They own the stock market and the stock market police—the SEC. Everything is stacked against the small investors. They operate with impunity.”

Diamond said the hedge fund short sellers use various techniques to accomplish their insidious goals. These include “dark pools,” in which their transactions are concealed from the public; flash orders; front running; insider trading; and collusion. He explained, “They raid companies at will, shorting stocks fearlessly without an uptick, colluding to determine the direction of the market. They trade fearlessly without risk, and they transferred all the fear, and risk of investment losses and capital losses to the small investors, regular investors, retirement portfolios and mutual funds.

As if the situation wasn’t bad enough, the so-called financial reform bill which Diamond warned against but passed the Congress exempts the SEC from the Freedom of Information Act.

“The documents that I was available to see to help me write the book Wizards of Wall Street will no longer be made available to the public or journalists. The SEC will now only release documents to the Congress and the courts. The MFA made sure that its lap dogs at the SEC are shielded from scrutiny and criticism as they cooperate with the agents of George Soros in destroying America and capitalism.”

Bindare_Dundat

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Re: Dow Crash coming to your 401k (**Strictly Moderated--SEE FIRST POST**)
« Reply #2357 on: August 25, 2010, 03:26:24 PM »
1020 for the Dow at the moment. Right when the data for housing/durable goods was released you can bet bottom dollar that the Fed/Banks were working in 12th gear to keep this sucker above 10k. With all the horrible news, and it is awful, the Dow being above 10k and the Dow even rebounding for going below 10k is a total joke. This market isn't a market anymore and hasn't been in a very long time. Long Term Investment is now around 5 minutes and short term investment is around however fast the HFT's can go. No more money from "outside" sources into the market because it's broken and the game is about up. It is now purely the TBTF's, Financial Institutions and the Fed.

And I think it's time for us to think of the DOW as a policy tool and nothing more.

As usual, always look forward to reading your posts. I wish I had more time to respond.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Dow Crash coming to your 401k (**Strictly Moderated--SEE FIRST POST**)
« Reply #2358 on: August 25, 2010, 06:51:39 PM »

We're In A Contained Depression That May Last As Long As A Decade
Mike "Mish" Shedlock | Aug. 25, 2010, 12:50 PM | 2,770 |  11

________________________ _______________



. Kevin Feltes, an economist for the Jerome Levy Forecasting Center, solicited my opinion on a couple of their recent articles.

Levy comes down on the side of deflation, as do I. However, the devil is in the details, as always. I will go through one of their articles in a point-by-point fashion, stating where I agree and disagree with their analysis.

Levy:

It is not inflation but more disinflation and ultimately deflation that lie ahead in the 2010s.

Inflation worries remain a major part of the market backdrop, and the past year has brought new price stability concerns to investors. During that time, we have written about inflation fears, deflation risks, and the relationships between price trends and monetary policy, fiscal policy, Treasury debt levels, foreign debt holdings, and various other issues. We have argued that rising inflation will not be a threat in the coming years and that disinflation and some deflation are the real worries. Our position remains unchanged.

 
Durable Goods Orders Downside Surprise; Details Range from Weak to Abysmal
"Contained Depression"

Japan's Finance Minister Threatens Yen Intervention to Halt "One-Sided Movement"
1. Why It Will Be Very Difficult for Inflation to Accelerate in the Next Few Years

The dominant influence on price trends in the near future and for years to come will be the deflationary influence of chronically high unemployment. The economy not only has gone through a deep recession but also has entered a contained depression, a long period of substandard economic performance, chronic financial problems, and generally high unemployment. The contained depression is likely to last about a decade; it will end in the latter half of the 2010s at the earliest and could stretch into the 2020s

In the years ahead, chronic high unemployment will weigh heavily on labor costs; chronic economic weakness will tend to keep profit margins under pressure and firms focused on cost control; and global instability and large areas of depression (contained or otherwise) will reduce upward pressures on prices of imported commodities and are likely to cause these prices to fall much of the time.

Even if imported commodity prices, most notably oil prices, rise sharply at times, they will not have a large, lasting effect on inflation as long as labor costs are decelerating or actually falling.

Labor costs are the dominant inflation influence not only because they are the single biggest component of prices, but also because labor costs are heavily affected by compensation rates, which fuel consumer spending and are therefore tied to the ability of firms to pass on inflationary price increases to consumers.

By contrast, oil prices, which are widely believed to be a critical inflation signal, have a weaker relationship to inflation over time, although they can be an important short-term influence. Labor cost inflation will remain subdued or even negative as long as unemployment remains high, and the prospects for a real recovery in labor markets are poor. A tightening labor market—a falling unemployment rate—would at some point trigger inflationary pay increases. Conversely, any unemployment rate that is substantially above such a trigger point indicates excessive competition for jobs and a tendency for pay raises to shrink—or pay cuts to become larger and more common. The trigger point, which varies from one business cycle to another depending on a variety of circumstances, is by any reasonable estimate far below the present figure of nearly 10%.

Mish Response:

I like the concept of a "contained depression".

We are certainly in a depression. However, 40 million people on food stamps as of August 2010, masks that depression. The cost of the food stamp program is on schedule to exceed $60 billion in fiscal 2010. For comparison purposes, there was just over 11 million on food stamps in 2005.

Please note there are 14.6 million unemployed, but of them 4.5 million of them are receiving regular unemployment benefits and another 4.7 million are receiving extended benefits. Thus 63% of those unemployed are receiving benefits. Being paid while not working also masks the depression.

In addition, there is massive underemployment with 8.5 million working "part time for economic reasons" and another 2.6 million "marginally attached" workers who want a job but are not considered unemployed because they have not looked for 4 weeks. This is "containment" of sorts, as the official numbers mask the depth of the unemployment problem.

Finally, countless millions have not paid their mortgage for months or even a year without being foreclosed on. Free from mortgage expenses but having a place to live certainly makes life a lot easier.

Missing the Boat on Labor-Induced Wage-Price Spirals

I disagree with Levy when it comes to the issue of wage price spirals.

Levy's statement "Labor cost inflation will remain subdued or even negative as long as unemployment remains high" is not true as evidenced by the stagflationary 70's and 80's complete with Nixon's wage-price controls that were dismantled as a failure in 1974.

My reasons include global wage arbitrage, boomer demographics, and overcapacity in the face of secular changes in consumer psychology (the willingness and ability of consumers to take on more debt.)

Those forces will act as a huge damper on consumer demand for goods and services, a damper on business' ability and desire to expand, and in turn a damper on both wages and prices, regardless of what the Fed tries to do.

The critical factor in that list is consumer psychology - the willingness and ability of consumers to take on more debt.

In the 70's, households went from one wage earner to two, increasing the ability of households to take on debt. Interest rates falling from as high as 18% to where they are today increased the ability of consumers to take on debt. Belief that rising asset prices (especially home prices) would guarantee a nice retirement increased the willingness of consumers to take on debt, and debt they did take on in the form of second mortgages, home equity lines of credit, etc.

Now, it's payback time for a global credit boom of epic proportion, now gone bust.

Greenspan vs. Bernanke

Note the huge difference in the problems of Greenspan as compared to Bernanke.

Greenspan had the winds of rising productivity in conjunction with an internet boom, followed by the winds of housing and commercial real estate booms, blowing at his back. The internet boom and the housing bubble both provided an enormous source of jobs.

In contrast, Bernanke has a gale force breeze of a secular change in social attitudes towards debt in conjunction with unfavorable boomer demographics, blowing briskly in his face. There is no source of jobs now, only the hollow shells of vacant commercial real estate standing as testimony to the blatantly foolish policies of the Greenspan and Bernanke Fed.

Inflationists simply do not understand the importance of these secular shifts in consumer attitudes and demographics.

Luck of the Draw

Greenspan was "lucky" in the sense that the credit booms fueled asset prices as opposed to consumer prices. Greenspan never had to act to contain "inflation" because he failed to see any even though it fueled a massive asset bubble in housing and commercial real estate.

Here is a chart from Case-Shiller CPI Now Tracking CPI-U that shows what I mean.

CS-CPI vs. CPI-U


The above chart compares CPI-U vs. CS-CPI, the latter formed by substituting the Case-Shiller home price index for OER (Owners' Equivalent Rent), in the CPI. Home prices were relatively stable in the mid-to-late 90's as the real cost of borrowing was high.

However, note what happened when Greenspan held rates low in 2002-2006. Real interest rates (subtract CS-CPI from the Fed Funds Rate) were as low as NEGATIVE 5% in 2004.

Is it any wonder asset prices soared?

This is one of many reasons why Bernanke's 2% "inflation" policy is preposterous. The Fed simply has no control where liquidity flows, or for that matter if there is a flow at all. Note that real interest rates as measured by CS-CPI hit POSITIVE 6% in 2009 in the wake of the housing crash. Ironically, talk of the town was "massive inflation".

The above chart is from March 5, 2010. Although real interest rates are now negative by my measure, I do expect home prices as measured by Case-Shiller to start dropping this autumn, and for real interest rates to be positive once again, even at a 0% Fed Funds rate!

Aftermath of the Credit Bubble Bust

Greenspan and Bernanke both failed to spot the massive increase in inflation in the early 2000's because liquidity flowed into assets as opposed to wages and consumer prices. We are now in the aftermath of the credit bubble bust.

Just as rising productivity and rising asset prices masked massive inflation of money supply and credit in the early 2000's, the reported CPI-U masked falling home prices (and high real interest rates) from 2006 on.

With consumers deleveraging, boomer demographics, and no driver for jobs or economic growth, wages and prices are highly likely to be contained.

Thus, Levy has the result correct (deflation) but missed the key reason why - a secular change in consumer attitudes towards credit and debt in conjunction with a secular shift in the attitudes of banks' willingness to lend.

Levy:

2. Why Aggressive Monetary Policy Isn’t Causing and Won’t Cause Inflation

The notion of an inexorable link between monetary policy and inflation is pounded into our brains by the prevailing economic wisdom: “inflation is a monetary phenomenon,” “inflation is too many dollars chasing too few goods,” “central banks pump money into their economies to inflate their way out of trouble,” and so forth.

Yet creating more reserves in the system does not under all circumstances lead to additional demand, and if it does not, it cannot affect prices. True, under normal circumstances, easier money means lower interest rates, more credit creation, and more demand associated with that credit creation. But that’s not what happens when the economy faces what has been called the “liquidity trap,” when increasing the money supply does not induce more activity.

There are various theoretical reasons given for the liquidity trap, but let’s just focus on what is happening now and what is likely to happen in the years ahead. Presently, excess reserves are not inducing lending for several reasons, and adding to them further will not make much difference.

    •    First of all, banks are capital constrained, not reserve constrained.
    •    Second, interest rates could not fall far enough during this business cycle to enable troubled debtors to refinance their way out of trouble, so now banks remain worried about the volumes of bad debt they are carrying and how future loan losses will impinge on earnings and capital.
    •    Third, deflationary expectations are beginning to work their way into banks’ loan evaluation process on a micro level; in more and more areas, loan officers are looking at households with shrinking incomes and firms with deflating revenues.
    •    Fourth, the private sector has too much debt, and many households and firms are trying to reduce debt, especially as more of them worry about deflation in their own incomes or revenues.


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Re: Dow Crash coming to your 401k (**Strictly Moderated--SEE FIRST POST**)
« Reply #2359 on: August 25, 2010, 06:52:47 PM »
Mish Response:

Those four points above are perfectly expressed. In conjunction with secular changes in consumer attitudes, they form the very heart of the deflation argument.

In spite of Bernanke's heroic efforts, banks are still capital constrained. The Fed can create reserves at will. It cannot create capital.

Very few understand those alleged "excess reserves" are a mirage. They don't exist. More importantly, fewer still understand that reserves are not an issue at all and in reality, lending precedes creation of reserves.

I discussed those concepts at length in Fictional Reserve Lending And The Myth Of Excess Reserves

Lending Comes First, Reserves Second
    •    Australian economist Steve Keen has made a strong case that lending comes first and reserves later in Roving Cavaliers of Credit. I discussed that at length in Fiat World Mathematical Model.
    •    That point alone should seal the hash of the debate but it keeps coming up over and over. So let's try one more time.
    •    Inquiring minds are reading BIS Working Papers No 292, Unconventional monetary policies: an appraisal.
    •    Note: The above link is a lengthy and complex read, recommended only for those with a good understanding of monetary issues. It is not light reading.

The article addresses two fallacies
    •    Proposition #1: an expansion of bank reserves endows banks with additional resources to extend loans
    •    Proposition #2: There is something uniquely inflationary about bank reserves financing

Simply put, anyone who thinks those "excess reserves" are going to produce haunting inflation simply has no idea how the credit system even works.

What about the "Liquidity Trap"?

My only point of contention in the above section by Levy is in regards to the alleged "liquidity trap".
The "liquidity trap" concept is a Keynesian artifact that presumes something needs to be done about falling prices and lack of credit expansion.

The reality is falling prices are a good thing (they are only bad in the construct of a credit bubble bust where banks can't be paid back and the Fed feels obliged to steal from taxpayers to increase bank profits to make up for their losses).

What causes asset bubbles?

Why inflation of monetary supply and credit of course.

A depression is a necessary aftermath of a credit boom. Japan attempted to fight deflation for 20 years and all they have to show for it is debt to GDP ratios of 200% and an enormous demographic problem staring them square in the face.

Ad Hoc Policy of Inflation

My friend "HB" aka Pater Tenebarum discusses the Fed's misguided policy The Ad Hoc Policy of Inflation:

Contrary to Bullard's hypothesis that rising prices are desirable, we tend to think that most consumers would probably be quite happy to see falling prices. Note here that producers need not suffer either from a fall in prices. What is important for producer profits are relative prices. If their input costs fall to the same extent as their sales prices, they will continue to be profitable.

Bullard's error is the widely held belief that falling prices are synonymous with economic depression. We already mentioned in the past that this view can neither be supported theoretically nor empirically. The fastest period of real economic growth in US history of the past 150 years occurred before the Fed was founded, and coincided with steadily falling prices. Since Bullard does simply not say anywhere why he thinks the price level should always be rising, he seems to assume that this is self-evident. However, it is not. If falling prices were bad for an industry, the computer industry would not be an engine of economic growth, but would always be in depression. Until Bullard explains how such an 'exception to the rule' can not only exist, but actually thrive, we fail to follow his argument in favor of more inflation.

Also note, as I pointed out above, the Fed cannot control where liquidity flows or if it does at all. The housing bubble is proof enough. Thus, the idea that +2% CPI inflation is a good thing is doubly stupid.

Levy:

4. The Rapid Increase In Public Debt Is Not Likely to End in Disaster

Although public debt issuance is massive at present and will continue to be so, total debt issuance— public plus private—is much smaller than it has been in recent years, and it will remain depressed. Public debt growth may have accelerated to roughly $2 trillion annual rate, but net private debt issuance will likely be minimal or negative for many years as the private sector delevers; private debt growth had been running at about $4 trillion annual rate in recent years but has shifted into reverse, becoming negative (chart 4). Thus, although the federal debt is rising rapidly, the total debt level in the economy is not.

Mish Response:

Levy was kind enough to produce a larger more up-to-date version of the above mentioned chart. Here it is:


Note that net credit has been in contraction for 5 quarters!

In spite of huge government deficits, private credit is contracting faster. Given that "excess reserves" just sitting don't do a damn thing, and given that TMS1 - True Money Supply is barely growing we have a rock solid case for saying deflation is here and now.
True Money Supply

For more on TMS1 and TMS2 please see:

True Money Supply (TMS) vs. Austrian Money Supply (AMS or M Prime) Update
Money Supply Divergence - TMS1 vs. TMS2 vs. M2 - What does it Mean?
We Are In Deflation Here and Now

Rising prices do not constitute inflation, they are at best a symptom of rising inflation.

If you have not yet done so, please read Are we "Trending Towards Deflation" or in It?

There is plenty of information in that article about how to spot inflation and deflation by looking at symptoms of inflation and deflation.

Nearly every condition one would expect to see in deflation is happening, right now. The few that aren't are close at hand and likely. If all or nearly all the conditions one would expect to see in deflation are happening (the scorecard is close to unanimous), I suggest that those who say we are not in deflation have the wrong definition of the word.

Inflation and Deflation Defined

Bear in mind my definition of inflation is a net expansion of money supply and credit, with credit marked-to-market. Deflation is a net contraction of money supply and credit, with credit marked-to-market.

Unfortunately, the Fed and the FASB have conspired to prevent mark-to-market accounting.

However, it is relatively easy based on market reaction, credit expansion/contraction, and moves in interest rates to state that deflation started in 2007, continued through 2008, was interrupted in 2009, and we are back in it now, simply by looking at action in treasury yields in conjunction will all of the other indicator mentioned in the article.

The reason I use "mark-to-market" accounting of credit in my definition is twofold.

1. From a practical standpoint "mark-to-market" accounting better explains what is happening and why.

2. The model is predictive. Note the Levy chart for 2008 and 2009. Asset prices crashed in 2008 and rose in 2009 although total credit fell in both years. Why? The massive bailout of banks by the Fed and Congress hugely lifted the value of credit on the books of banks. In turn, asset prices rose, as did treasury yields, even though the real economy stagnated.

One could not have predicted recent events (even in hindsight) simply by looking at the Levy chart. The Levy chart shows 2008 to be an inflationary year and 2009 a deflationary year.

One could also not have predicted what would happen to treasury yields without an understanding of what collapsing credit would do.

Time to Short Treasuries?

Flashback January 20, 2008: Time To Short Treasuries?

Kass: Inflation is still an issue. Despite the Bureau of Labor Statistics' readings, inflation remains elevated and is not reflected in the current level of interest rates. The expected fiscal and monetary stimulation in the upcoming months will only serve to exacerbate inflationary pressures.

Mish: Before we can have a debate about whether or not inflation is a problem, we need to agree on what inflation is. Credit is being destroyed far faster than any monetary printing. Currently, Money Supply Trends Are Deflationary. In context of understanding what inflation is, treasury yields this low seem reasonable.

With rising unemployment will come still more foreclosures on both residential and commercial property. This will further impair bank balance sheets and any presumed recovery from this so called $150 billion "stimulus". It will likely take months, before that money gets into consumer hands and perhaps a year before Congress figures out it is meaningless.

Virtually no one, including Bernake thinks deflation can happen in the US. My position is that Things That "Can't" Happen are about to. The result will be Deflation American Style.

There is no bubble in treasuries if you look closely at the fundamental issues. Those who want to see how low treasury yields can get and stay there, need to look at Japan. Yields in the US are going to go far lower and stay lower longer than nearly everyone thinks.

Note how useless the CPI and the price of oil were and still are, in predicting treasury yields.

By the way, I love that Levy chart.

Unfortunately, it is not possible to put together a chart of credit "mark-to-market". There is no such thing, on purpose. Neither the Fed, nor the banks want anyone to know true marks, and the accounting board has delayed "mark-to-market" accounting as well as rules that would require more off balance sheet transactions to be brought back onto bank balance sheets.

However we can easily deduce the trend by a number of variables. Those variables suggest we are indeed bank in deflation after a short interlude in 2009.

Levy:

As revenues strengthen and social safety net spending eases, the deficit will tend to narrow rapidly on its own. As in the late 1940s and early 1950s, the debt-to-GDP ratio is likely to fall rapidly.

Mish:

The conditions in the 1940s and 1950s have absolutely nothing in common with the conditions now. Think of the baby boomer dynamics, population growth, etc.

We now have a massive wave of boomers headed for retirement with a need to draw down savings. Unfortunately, those savings are nonexistent for a huge chunk of retirees and hugely insufficient for nearly all the rest.

The Model is Japan NOT 1940

We have a model to look at and that model is Japan. Is debt-to-GDP rising or falling in Japan? I think we all know the answer to that. No doubt many will chime in "the US is not Japan" citing Bernanke's massive reflationary effort.

Ho-hum.

Please consider Bernanke's Deflation Preventing Scorecard and my followup post Are we "Trending Towards Deflation" or in It?.

In spite of that massive effort by Bernanke the US is in deflation.

Others will claim Japan is a nation of savers. What they really mean is Japan WAS a nation of savers. The savings rate in Japan is now under 1% while the US savings rate is soaring.

Interestingly, a lack of savings in the US strengthens (not weakens) the deflation case. What cannot be paid back won't. What isn't paid back results in a collapse in credit (i.e. deflation).

So yes, we are Japan, and no, this is not 1940.

Headed For Disaster

Levy makes another error in stating "The Rapid Increase In Public Debt Is Not Likely to End in Disaster"

Assuming we stay on the same course, we are indeed headed for disaster. However, timing the disaster and the nature of it is the problem. We could be 5 years away or 10. There are too many variables to figure out, and too many ways the problem can change in the meantime.

I think Japan faces disaster first. They are one cycle ahead.

Levy:

8. Could the Economy Begin to Overheat When the Contained Depression Is Over, Leading to Rapidly Rising Inflation?

As long as the contained depression persists, and our best estimate is that it will last roughly a decade, the primary threat to price stability will remain deflation rather than inflation. Japan provides a graphic example of how an economy in contained depression — in Japan’s case, for nearly two decades — can run huge deficits, accumulate massive government debt, and still experience disinflation and deflation. The real inflation question concerns what will happen once the contained depression ends.

Although the future that far out holds many uncertainties, it appears that occasional spikes will be more likely than an ongoing upward wage-price spiral after many years of disinflation or deflation.

Mish: Levy is back on track. I too suspect the "contained depression" may last as long as a decade. If it does, there is no reason to think the deficit will shrink. Japan's didn't, so why should ours?

Interestingly, Levy hits the nail on the head with "Japan provides a graphic example of how an economy in contained depression can run huge deficits, accumulate massive government debt, and still experience disinflation and deflation" while stating something sounding way different in the preceding section.

Conclusions

I commend Levy for coming to what I believe is the correct overall conclusion. Levy did go astray on some minor issues as well as one major point, but overall I like their analysis. The report was well presented.

One problem in reading the report is that at times Levy seems to confuse "price inflation" with "inflation". It is very difficult to draw correct conclusions about what is happening and more importantly what is likely to happen, unless one figures out where money supply and credit are headed, and why.

If you have not done so, please consider Fiat World Mathematical Model.

That Levy managed to come to what I believe is the proper overall conclusion stems from Levy's rock-solid case presented in section 2: Why Aggressive Monetary Policy Isn’t Causing and Won’t Cause Inflation.

Thanks

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/were-in-a-contained-depression-that-may-last-as-long-as-a-decade-2010-8#ixzz0xfjzPydb

GigantorX

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Re: Dow Crash coming to your 401k (**Strictly Moderated--SEE FIRST POST**)
« Reply #2360 on: August 26, 2010, 10:46:51 AM »
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/initial-claims-come-473k-expectations-490k-previous-revised-504k-500k

The Jobless claims came in under "expectations" 470k vs 490k. With those filing for long term benefits rising. The 470k is a bad number and higher than the weekly claims from a month ago. Last Jobless claims report was revised upwards 500k to 504k. Not good. Couple that with total business spending in decline and I see absolutely no reason that this market should even be anywhere near the color green.

And Neuro, good point about the weight of tomorrows GDP number. Although to me, GDP is more fantasy now than fact but it is still a number to watch and a good source of "pump and dump" news. I believe I read in Bloomberg that the prior Qtr. or Qtr's are actually being revised down by as much as a full % point. Not good. Add to that to the fact that all of our Govt's projections fiscal/budget projections, Entitlement budget projects etc are based on somewhere north of 4% growth, and you see how none of this is good news.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Dow Crash coming to your 401k (**Strictly Moderated--SEE FIRST POST**)
« Reply #2361 on: August 26, 2010, 11:07:12 AM »
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/initial-claims-come-473k-expectations-490k-previous-revised-504k-500k

The Jobless claims came in under "expectations" 470k vs 490k. With those filing for long term benefits rising. The 470k is a bad number and higher than the weekly claims from a month ago. Last Jobless claims report was revised upwards 500k to 504k. Not good. Couple that with total business spending in decline and I see absolutely no reason that this market should even be anywhere near the color green.

And Neuro, good point about the weight of tomorrows GDP number. Although to me, GDP is more fantasy now than fact but it is still a number to watch and a good source of "pump and dump" news. I believe I read in Bloomberg that the prior Qtr. or Qtr's are actually being revised down by as much as a full % point. Not good. Add to that to the fact that all of our Govt's projections fiscal/budget projections, Entitlement budget projects etc are based on somewhere north of 4% growth, and you see how none of this is good news.

I am arguing with some fools on HP about this and Roubini's latest predictions and those fools are still in blame Reagan/Bush mode.   They are utterly clueless and melting down at the prospect that a double dip will be blamed on the current crop of hacks in DC.     

loco

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Re: Dow Crash coming to your 401k (**Strictly Moderated--SEE FIRST POST**)
« Reply #2362 on: August 26, 2010, 01:36:16 PM »
I am arguing with some fools on HP about this and Roubini's latest predictions and those fools are still in blame Reagan/Bush mode.   They are utterly clueless and melting down at the prospect that a double dip will be blamed on the current crop of hacks in DC.     


Neurotoxin blames Bush too.

bush has systematically destroyed this country financially.

our country is heading for a severe recession as a result of his failed policies.


Soul Crusher

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Re: Dow Crash coming to your 401k (**Strictly Moderated--SEE FIRST POST**)
« Reply #2363 on: August 26, 2010, 01:41:30 PM »

Neurotoxin blames Bush too.


Hint - we are almost 3 years after proclamation.  What has occurred since?   

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Re: Dow Crash coming to your 401k (**Strictly Moderated--SEE FIRST POST**)
« Reply #2364 on: August 26, 2010, 01:57:04 PM »
obama has exacerbated the disaster bush created.




-NT

Correctamundo. 

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Re: Dow Crash coming to your 401k (**Strictly Moderated--SEE FIRST POST**)
« Reply #2365 on: August 31, 2010, 08:54:58 PM »
obama has exacerbated the disaster bush created.
-NT

in your opinion, how has Obama exacerbated the disaster bush created and what should he have done differently

tonymctones

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Re: Dow Crash coming to your 401k (**Strictly Moderated--SEE FIRST POST**)
« Reply #2366 on: August 31, 2010, 09:12:43 PM »
in your opinion, how has Obama exacerbated the disaster bush created and what should he have done differently
hmmmmm lets see....the health care bill, a shitty stimulus package(nothing more than rampant spending), raising taxes, playing with the idea of letting tax cuts expire, creating programs like cash for clunkers that do nothing more than pull demand forward creating a lull in demand later.

finance reform that doesnt do anything as of yet, customer protection that doesnt protect...

what exactly do you think bush did to create this disaster straw or NT I started an entire thread about this and bumped it for days but neither one of you posted in that, hmmm I wonder why?

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Re: Dow Crash coming to your 401k (**Strictly Moderated--SEE FIRST POST**)
« Reply #2367 on: August 31, 2010, 10:00:43 PM »
hmmmmm lets see....the health care bill, a shitty stimulus package(nothing more than rampant spending), raising taxes, playing with the idea of letting tax cuts expire, creating programs like cash for clunkers that do nothing more than pull demand forward creating a lull in demand later.

finance reform that doesnt do anything as of yet, customer protection that doesnt protect...

what exactly do you think bush did to create this disaster straw or NT I started an entire thread about this and bumped it for days but neither one of you posted in that, hmmm I wonder why?

I asked NT not you

do yourself a favor and try to relax

tonymctones

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Re: Dow Crash coming to your 401k (**Strictly Moderated--SEE FIRST POST**)
« Reply #2368 on: August 31, 2010, 10:06:19 PM »
I asked NT not you

do yourself a favor and try to relax
LOL i take that as you have no clue what bush did to destroy the economy but will continue to parot obammers?


tonymctones

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Re: Dow Crash coming to your 401k (**Strictly Moderated--SEE FIRST POST**)
« Reply #2369 on: August 31, 2010, 10:15:17 PM »
here you go fellas anybody who think bush created this mess please go respond in this thread...ya the one I created but not one person who parrots obama and blames bush has posted in...

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=346366.0

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Re: Dow Crash coming to your 401k (**Strictly Moderated--SEE FIRST POST**)
« Reply #2370 on: September 01, 2010, 08:18:51 AM »
Ah, another laugher on Wall Street today. ADP jobs report was a disaster and the market surges 230+ on "Upbeat" manufacturing data. 56.3? How on Earth can the national numbers be high when all of the regional reports were horrible? CNBC pumping bad numbers from GM as good numbers just before their IPO, I'm shocked, shocked I say! 10k jobs cut from the private sector...that's not good. Lots of pump and dump from the Govt/Fed backed banks and the Fed itself. Trying to entice some dumb money to get into the market and get ass-fucked and dumped into the nearest river or shallow lake, possibly a fjord.

The China numbers are smoke and mirrors. More so than ours. Funny how they always seem to meet their "growth expectations" and have never missed....ever. Even in the midst of over 50% of their exports customers are mired in a deep and ongoing recession....strange. I guess we could look to all of the massive cities, roads, apartments, factories etc that sit totally empty and un-utilized. We could also take a look at the massive stimulus the Chinese govt. is doing in perpetuity to fund massive construction projects that sit totally unused like the cities (literally) I mentioned above. Or perhaps the fact that the Govt. is forcing Chinese banks to give out loans to anyone or anything with a pulse and a majority of those loans are underwater and will not be repaid.

loco

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Re: Dow Crash coming to your 401k (**Strictly Moderated--SEE FIRST POST**)
« Reply #2371 on: September 01, 2010, 10:40:21 AM »
Ah, another laugher on Wall Street today. ADP jobs report was a disaster and the market surges 230+ on "Upbeat" manufacturing data. 56.3? How on Earth can the national numbers be high when all of the regional reports were horrible? CNBC pumping bad numbers from GM as good numbers just before their IPO, I'm shocked, shocked I say! 10k jobs cut from the private sector...that's not good. Lots of pump and dump from the Govt/Fed backed banks and the Fed itself. Trying to entice some dumb money to get into the market and get ass-fucked and dumped into the nearest river or shallow lake, possibly a fjord.

The China numbers are smoke and mirrors. More so than ours. Funny how they always seem to meet their "growth expectations" and have never missed....ever. Even in the midst of over 50% of their exports customers are mired in a deep and ongoing recession....strange. I guess we could look to all of the massive cities, roads, apartments, factories etc that sit totally empty and un-utilized. We could also take a look at the massive stimulus the Chinese govt. is doing in perpetuity to fund massive construction projects that sit totally unused like the cities (literally) I mentioned above. Or perhaps the fact that the Govt. is forcing Chinese banks to give out loans to anyone or anything with a pulse and a majority of those loans are underwater and will not be repaid.

Could the Chinese be cooking their books, potentially leading to a huge recession once the mierda hits the fan?

OzmO

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Re: Dow Crash coming to your 401k (**Strictly Moderated--SEE FIRST POST**)
« Reply #2372 on: September 01, 2010, 10:48:34 AM »
NT,

I am sure you have covered this somewhere in the thousands of posts on this thread, but how did BUSH contribute to the state of our economy?

I think it's unrealistic to say it's all "BUSH's" fault.  What did he do?

I know irresponsibly putting us in Iraq and costing billions  if not trillions and putting Afghanistan on the back burner dragging it doesn't help. 

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Re: Dow Crash coming to your 401k (**Strictly Moderated--SEE FIRST POST**)
« Reply #2373 on: September 01, 2010, 10:53:41 AM »
Could the Chinese be cooking their books, potentially leading to a huge recession once the mierda hits the fan?

Their books are on fire.

loco

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Re: Dow Crash coming to your 401k (**Strictly Moderated--SEE FIRST POST**)
« Reply #2374 on: September 01, 2010, 11:03:09 AM »
Their books are on fire.

I never understood all this China prosperity, China new economic leader in the world, China new world power, etc.  Their products suck, and their multitude of Chinese workers are next to slaves.  Yeah, "everything is made in China", but a lot of it by Western companies.  When something is made in China by a Chinese company, it is usually something that will make you sick, hurt you or kill you.  As secretive and oppressive as the Chinese government is, I'm not surprised they are cooking their books and their prosperity is nothing but an illusion.

I see Obama in the near future proposing a new bill to bailout China.