Author Topic: Questions for Atheists  (Read 26761 times)

NeoSeminole

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Re: Questions for Atheists
« Reply #75 on: October 18, 2006, 01:57:13 PM »
I think animals have an innate sense of right and wrong. From an evolutionary stand point, a population that doesn't go around killing each other for no reason has a greater chance of survival. Also, humans are social animals. I believe we are more 'programmed' to feel sympathy for others.

OzmO

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Re: Questions for Atheists
« Reply #76 on: October 18, 2006, 01:59:06 PM »
I think animals have an innate sense of right and wrong. From an evolutionary stand point, a population that doesn't go around killing each other for no reason has a greater chance of survival.

Well then we are doomed.

Clubber Lang

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Re: Questions for Atheists
« Reply #77 on: October 18, 2006, 02:22:18 PM »
People often focus on gray areas when talking about morality, but there is a lot of black and white:

rape
murder
incest
child molestation
cheating (in business)



youre the last guy in the world and the only female is a 16 year old cousin of yours who doesnt want to have sex.

human survival now depends on you raping an underage relitave of yours.

murdering a terrorist might prevent an attack

cheating in business could feed your starving family

is it still black and white?

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Re: Questions for Atheists
« Reply #78 on: October 18, 2006, 02:25:20 PM »
yes alturism and evolution, but you have no proof that we are programmed for this feat by evolution more so then god. ok so why dont i rape every women in sight, would increase my chances of procreating thus increase fitness. there is more at work then the basic emotions in humans(anger,fear,sadness,disgust,happiness and surprise) this may be due to the expansion of the prefrontal cortex but it plays a role in our right and wrong. if we are nothing special then why not eat each other like other animals, why not rape like i said. why is a species programmed to care about the population, i would think personal positives would out weigh the care for the group(altruism again).

but go back to the first animals, or bacteria that we all came from. morality evolved from this for that purpose, and is goverened by what. why did we evolve morality, just like why did we evolve reproduction, it is purpose driven. did the first bacteria by accident evolve reproductive structures to say i need to reproduce?.

and to clubber lang it is black and white you are confusing choice. we can choose not to obey morality but we all have an innate sense of right and wrong. your post is missing the point, morality on some subjects is black and white.

Necrosis

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Re: Questions for Atheists
« Reply #79 on: October 18, 2006, 02:31:17 PM »
awesome book that gets a little tangly and might exceed someones boggle factor but is very convincing. this is a small portion.

Every thousand years or so, there comes a thinker whose life is as striking as his or her intellectual output is stunning. Viewed from this perspective, it is remarkable indeed that within a period of 300+ years, the world was to witness the convergent odysseys of four titans of thought who set the agenda for the study of reality at every level. This is the period I like to call the Golden Age of human thought. Between them, Avicenna of Persia (980-1037), Moses Maimonides of Egypt (1135-1204), Thomas Aquinas of Italy (c.1225-1274) and Madhvacharya of India (c.1238-1317) created a magnificent monument of thought that underpins the very possibility of the scientific enterprise. It was the mother of all Theories of Everything, one that was validated both by its inherent logic and the success of modern science.
The point of departure for these thinkers, let's call them the Four, was simply that things exist. From this bare fact their minds soared to the greatest insight possible to the human mind - the realization that things exist only because there exists One who cannot not-exist, who exists without beginning or end or any conceivable limitation. The very essence of this Being is to BE - there is no question of was or will be for It always IS. Thus we speak of "It" as "He who IS", the "I AM." Each one of the Four considered this "equation of God" to be THE fundamental truth:

Avicenna: In God alone, essence, what he is, and existence, that he is, coincide. God's essence is to exist. "The essence of the Necessary Existent [God] can be no other than existence."

Maimonides: "His existence is identical with his essence and his true reality, and his essence is his existence."

Aquinas: "There is a being, God, whose essence is His very act of existing."

Madhvacharya (Commentary on verse 17 of the Isavaya Upanishad Basya): "'SO AHAM ASMI.' This is the great ineffable name of God, 'I am that I AM' 'That Supreme Being (asau) which indwells in Asu is the I AM.'"

The great discovery of divine self-existence, the "God equation" of Essence=Existence that has inspired hundreds of writings, is foundational for the Matrix. From it flows a dynamic vision of reality rooted in a living, ever-active and infinitely creative source and conserver of everything that was, is and will be. By working out all the implications of this "equation", the Four arrived at all their other findings: the world is real and rational, the human person can think and know, every phenomenon has an explanation given that infinite Intelligence is the ground of all things.

Why is the Matrix important for science? Well, for modern science to work, for the very possibility of a scientific method that bears fruit in theory and experiment, we must make certain basic assumptions about the nature of the world. For instance, we can't "do" science in the sense of seeking out underlying causes and laws if we didn't believe that the world operates with causes and laws. Nor could we pursue our inquiries if we didn't think our minds are capable of making deductions and reaching valid conclusions.

But why should we believe any of these assumptions to be true? And how did we come up with them in the first place? Did scientists discover them like they discovered Pluto or invent them like they invented jet engines? The fact of the matter is that science and the scientific method didn't drop out of nowhere. There's a framework of thought behind science that goes beyond the methods of science. It's a set of pre-scientific and pre-philosophical insights accepted by the first scientists.

We call them "meta-scientific" and by that we mean a principle or reality that is fundamental to science but cannot be tested with the methods of science. The domain of the meta-scientific includes:

things that have no physical characteristics (e.g., consciousness, abstract thought),
claims that can be proved or disproved by reasoning but not by experiment (e.g., are our minds capable of knowing?) and
questions about the nature of existence (e.g., what does it mean for something to "be").
A classic meta-scientific issue is the belief that the universe exists. This can only be assumed by science and not proven because every physical experiment will necessarily assume the world exists. A proof for the reality of the world (as laid out by Madhvacharya, for instance) is necessarily meta-scientific. The Matrix does two things. It:
affirms the meta-scientific principles that were later adopted by science and then
builds a case for accepting the truth of these principles.
To put it another way, it supplies science with its foundations and provides the ground on which these foundations can be laid. Most scientists are too busy (as they should be) building on the foundations to worry about the foundations themselves. But if we assume (as science does and must) that there's rationality in the world embodied in the laws of nature, then we should know if and why this assumption is true and what it implies. It's here that the Matrix takes us beyond the assumption itself to the ultimate reality on which it is founded.

The importance of the Matrix becomes apparent when we consider the idea of scientific laws. The notion of fundamental laws of nature is now a commonplace in science. But where did the idea of such "laws" come from? Not from atheists or materialists. Intellectually it originated in the idea of a divine Mind who instituted immutable laws of nature (as even critics of the concept of laws of nature admit). Paradoxically, the scientist who today reflects on these laws talks of the Mind of God. So here are the two sequences: historically, the idea of God led to the idea of fundamental laws; currently, the idea of fundamental laws leads to the idea of God.


his outcome is that there is a god, but not a biblical god per se. awesome writer and won the templeton award.


Clubber Lang

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Re: Questions for Atheists
« Reply #80 on: October 18, 2006, 02:39:59 PM »
yes alturism and evolution, but you have no proof that we are programmed for this feat by evolution more so then god. ok so why dont i rape every women in sight, would increase my chances of procreating thus increase fitness. there is more at work then the basic emotions in humans(anger,fear,sadness,disgust,happiness and surprise) this may be due to the expansion of the prefrontal cortex but it plays a role in our right and wrong. if we are nothing special then why not eat each other like other animals, why not rape like i said. why is a species programmed to care about the population, i would think personal positives would out weigh the care for the group(altruism again).

but go back to the first animals, or bacteria that we all came from. morality evolved from this for that purpose, and is goverened by what. why did we evolve morality, just like why did we evolve reproduction, it is purpose driven. did the first bacteria by accident evolve reproductive structures to say i need to reproduce?.

and to clubber lang it is black and white you are confusing choice. we can choose not to obey morality but we all have an innate sense of right and wrong. your post is missing the point, morality on some subjects is black and white.

and you are not understanding the point of my post, pay attn:

the act itself is only one criteria for the morality of an action, the intentions and circumstances must also be considered. morality can never be "black and white" because it is an opinon, not a fact. history has shown morality changes with the ages, as i pointed out in my previous post, even on issues as contentious as murder and what we now consider child molestation.

assuming your opinion on any issue (aka your morality) is "black and white" is both arrogant and small minded

Dos Equis

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Re: Questions for Atheists
« Reply #81 on: October 18, 2006, 02:40:56 PM »
youre the last guy in the world and the only female is a 16 year old cousin of yours who doesnt want to have sex.

human survival now depends on you raping an underage relitave of yours.

murdering a terrorist might prevent an attack

cheating in business could feed your starving family

is it still black and white?

Yes, still black and white.  Like I said, people sometimes focus on gray areas . . . and unrealistic hypothetical situations.  

1.  I'll never be the last man on earth with a 16 year-old-female cousin, so I cannot answer your question.  Too much willful suspension of disbelief involved.

2.  All killing isn't murder, including self defense.  Killing your wife and baby because you don't want to be married and want to carry on an affair with another woman is murder.  Scott Peterson.  

3.  Honesty and integrity in business could feed your starving family.  Lying to your employees so you can make more money is immoral.  Enron.  

Yes you can mention numerous situations where certain conduct is debatable, but much of what we do and what many consider "immoral" is pretty clear.  

Necrosis

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Re: Questions for Atheists
« Reply #82 on: October 18, 2006, 02:47:02 PM »
and my point is morality is not opinion, so to neos point, animals seem to have a sense of right and wrong, is it there opinion. morality hasn't changed throught the ages you just think it has. cultures around the world may have different opinions or morality but most social psychological studies show that incest, friendship morality are the same in all cultures relatively. morality isnt an opinion if it was then each person on this earth would have different morals, culture may shape the grey areas but there are universal moral codes.

Clubber Lang

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Re: Questions for Atheists
« Reply #83 on: October 18, 2006, 02:49:45 PM »
Yes, still black and white.  Like I said, people sometimes focus on gray areas . . . and unrealistic hypothetical situations.  

1.  I'll never be the last man on earth with a 16 year-old-female cousin, so I cannot answer your question.  Too much willful suspension of disbelief involved.

2.  All killing isn't murder, including self defense.  Killing your wife and baby because you don't want to be married and want to carry on an affair with another woman is murder.  Scott Peterson.  

3.  Honesty and integrity in business could feed your starving family.  Lying to your employees so you can make more money is immoral.  Enron.  

Yes you can mention numerous situations where certain conduct is debatable, but much of what we do and what many consider "immoral" is pretty clear.  

if youe avoiding a subject cause its "unrealistic" we may as well trash this entire board, however, ill oblige

1) you are a settler in north america 400 years ago on the frontier. the only woman available to you is your 16 year old cousin. is it still wrong to get with her??

2) murder v self defense is a matter of opinion, how imminent does the threat have to be? i have my gun to someones head and you shoot me to save their life but find out its a toy gun, is that right? i kill a man who in 20 years would have raped a girl, is that right?

as convincing an argument as "pretty clear" is, i hope you can do better

Necrosis

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Re: Questions for Atheists
« Reply #84 on: October 18, 2006, 02:52:01 PM »
we all have a basic sense of write and wrong that isnt my opinion. i might think my sister is sexy and want to have sex with here but i know it is wrong, this wasnt taught to me or learned i know that it is immoral.


you dont understand the difference between choice and innate morality my friend. if i was the last person on earth with my sister i would choose to have sex while i know it is immoral.

Clubber Lang

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Re: Questions for Atheists
« Reply #85 on: October 18, 2006, 02:53:22 PM »
but there are universal moral codes.

if there really is a universal moral code im sure youll have no problem reciting it for me :)

Clubber Lang

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Re: Questions for Atheists
« Reply #86 on: October 18, 2006, 02:56:10 PM »
we all have a basic sense of write and wrong that isnt my opinion. i might think my sister is sexy and want to have sex with here but i know it is wrong, this wasnt taught to me or learned i know that it is immoral.


you dont understand the difference between choice and innate morality my friend. if i was the last person on earth with my sister i would choose to have sex while i know it is immoral.

do you think if you were raised by wolves you would know not to f**k your sister?

maybe

just maybe

you developed that notion from those around you and it wasnt magically stamped on your brain at birth ::)


NeoSeminole

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Re: Questions for Atheists
« Reply #87 on: October 18, 2006, 03:08:34 PM »
yes alturism and evolution, but you have no proof that we are programmed for this feat by evolution more so then god.

ha ha ha, give me a break! Evolution selects for favorable variables and discards unfavorable ones. It is advantageous for populations not go around killing each other for no reason. Any species that did are probably extinct now. Furthermore, altruism increases the likelihood of the offspring passing on their DNA to the next generation. The notion that morals came from god(s) carries as much weight as the belief that an invisible pink unicorn created the universe.

Quote
ok so why dont i rape every women in sight, would increase my chances of procreating thus increase fitness. there is more at work then the basic emotions in humans(anger,fear,sadness,disgust,happiness and surprise) this may be due to the expansion of the prefrontal cortex but it plays a role in our right and wrong. if we are nothing special then why not eat each other like other animals, why not rape like i said. why is a species programmed to care about the population, i would think personal positives would out weigh the care for the group(altruism again).

Humans are social animals. I believe we are genetically more 'programmed' to feel sympathy for others. Look at how social animals in the wild care for one another such as elephants and gorillas. There is no elephant or gorilla god(s) that I'm aware of. The ability to sympathize with others represents a tremendous evolutionary advantage. Raping a girl goes against this. Also, we don't eat each other b/c humans aren't naturally cannibals.

Quote
but go back to the first animals, or bacteria that we all came from. morality evolved from this for that purpose, and is goverened by what. why did we evolve morality, just like why did we evolve reproduction, it is purpose driven. did the first bacteria by accident evolve reproductive structures to say i need to reproduce?.

we don't know yet.

Necrosis

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Re: Questions for Atheists
« Reply #88 on: October 18, 2006, 03:15:15 PM »
my statement about altruism is that evolutionary model can explain it neatly but you avoided my question on why i dont rape other women etc. also, the point of the altruism issue is that the model can explain it, but there are numerous species that are not alturistic. a bear doesnt run to save another drowing bear like we would. we have moral fabric that animals dont have, we know right and wrong in the absolute sense but we also have choice. animals merely act on ingrained instinct it seems not opinions and logic, how and why did this evolve in humans. animals seem to get along just fine without us why did we evolve emotions which often interfere with choice in a negative fashion. how did inorganic material gain consciousness? and for what reason.

NeoSeminole

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Re: Questions for Atheists
« Reply #89 on: October 18, 2006, 03:34:35 PM »
my statement about altruism is that evolutionary model can explain it neatly but you avoided my question on why i dont rape other women etc.

I answered your question. Re-read my last post. I said raping a girl goes against our social nature.

Quote
also, the point of the altruism issue is that the model can explain it, but there are numerous species that are not alturistic. a bear doesnt run to save another drowing bear like we would. we have moral fabric that animals dont have, we know right and wrong in the absolute sense but we also have choice. animals merely act on ingrained instinct it seems not opinions and logic, how and why did this evolve in humans. animals seem to get along just fine without us why did we evolve emotions which often interfere with choice in a negative fashion.

I have a feeling you don't understand what altruism is. A mother bear will most definately try to save her young. However, a random bear might not try to save another. You also chose an example of an animal which is not social. Many social animals from the same family have been documented in the wild to help each other, such as elephants, wolves, gorillas, and lions.

Quote
how did inorganic material gain consciousness? and for what reason.

we don't know yet.

Dos Equis

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Re: Questions for Atheists
« Reply #90 on: October 18, 2006, 04:10:17 PM »
if youe avoiding a subject cause its "unrealistic" we may as well trash this entire board, however, ill oblige

1) you are a settler in north america 400 years ago on the frontier. the only woman available to you is your 16 year old cousin. is it still wrong to get with her??

2) murder v self defense is a matter of opinion, how imminent does the threat have to be? i have my gun to someones head and you shoot me to save their life but find out its a toy gun, is that right? i kill a man who in 20 years would have raped a girl, is that right?

as convincing an argument as "pretty clear" is, i hope you can do better

What is your point?  That there might be gray areas?  I've already acknowledged that.  I understand you're trying to play Devil's Advocate (I do that a lot) and trying to act like you're a moral skeptic, but moral skepticism isn't reality for the most part.  For example, you could argue whether homosexuality is immoral based on the Bible, but most reasonable people would likely consider child molestation immoral, regardless of their religious beliefs.     

Clubber Lang

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Re: Questions for Atheists
« Reply #91 on: October 18, 2006, 07:11:49 PM »
my point, once again, is that morality is not black and white and it changes with the times/circumstances. basically, im saying morality amounts to nothing more than an opinon

Dos Equis

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Re: Questions for Atheists
« Reply #92 on: October 18, 2006, 07:50:16 PM »
my point, once again, is that morality is not black and white and it changes with the times/circumstances. basically, im saying morality amounts to nothing more than an opinon

Maybe.  But in the 21st century, there is lots of black and white when it comes to the items I already listed:

rape
murder
incest
child molestation
cheating (in business)

Clubber Lang

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Re: Questions for Atheists
« Reply #93 on: October 18, 2006, 09:08:47 PM »
Maybe.  But in the 21st century, there is lots of black and white when it comes to the items I already listed:

rape
murder
incest
child molestation
cheating (in business)

if something is "black and white" (as in indisputable fact) shouldnt it be so every century?

perhaps you would argue that past societies were simply wrong in their morales (which differ from ours on the child molestation, murder and rape issues) and to that i would say how do you know that you are not wrong now ?

once again, morality is opinion, not fact. dont confuse present day consensus with eternal truth.

Dos Equis

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Re: Questions for Atheists
« Reply #94 on: October 19, 2006, 12:09:01 AM »
if something is "black and white" (as in indisputable fact) shouldnt it be so every century?

perhaps you would argue that past societies were simply wrong in their morales (which differ from ours on the child molestation, murder and rape issues) and to that i would say how do you know that you are not wrong now ?

once again, morality is opinion, not fact. dont confuse present day consensus with eternal truth.

Rape has always been immoral.  That's an "eternal truth." 

Clubber Lang

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Re: Questions for Atheists
« Reply #95 on: October 19, 2006, 07:48:32 AM »
you need to assume less and research more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_rape

Quote
In antiquity and until the late Middle Ages, rape was seen in most cultures less as a crime against a particular girl or woman or man or boy than against the head of the household or against chastity. As a consequence, the rape of a virgin was often a more serious crime than of a non-virgin, even a wife or widow, and the rape of a prostitute or other unchaste woman was, in some laws, not a crime because her chastity could not be harmed.

The penalty for rape was often a fine, payable to the father or the husband whose "goods" were "damaged".[citation needed] That position was later replaced in many cultures by the view that the woman, as well as her lord, should share the fine equally.[citation needed]
...
Early Christianity also maintained, as paganism did not, that slave women were entitled to chastity, and that therefore a slave woman could be raped, and honored as martyrs slave women who resisted their masters.

for like the 6th time, nothing is black and white

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Re: Questions for Atheists
« Reply #96 on: October 19, 2006, 08:47:50 AM »
nothing is black and white
so, it's not black and white, or cut and dry that 1+1=2?   :-\

if you live your life based soley on perceptions, i could see how you would believe that nothing is white and black.  but i think it's safe to say that, at some point in your life, you will be faced with a reality that forces you to make a decision.  Case in point, some day we will ALL die.  No perceptions about that truth.

Dos Equis

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Re: Questions for Atheists
« Reply #97 on: October 19, 2006, 08:56:51 AM »
so, it's not black and white, or cut and dry that 1+1=2?   :-\

if you live your life based soley on perceptions, i could see how you would believe that nothing is white and black.  but i think it's safe to say that, at some point in your life, you will be faced with a reality that forces you to make a decision.  Case in point, some day we will ALL die.  No perceptions about that truth.

True.

Dos Equis

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Re: Questions for Atheists
« Reply #98 on: October 19, 2006, 09:00:35 AM »
you need to assume less and research more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_rape

for like the 6th time, nothing is black and white

I see.  So some rape was not a very serious crime in some ancient society.  So what.  It is and always has been immoral.  You cannot make any reasonable argument that says rape is in a "gray area."  I'm not talking about date rape, where there is often a "he said, she said" situation.  I'm talking about where a woman does not want to have sex, or doesn't know the rapist, but is forced to have sex with a man against her will.  That is about as black and white as they come. 

Same with child molestation.  No.  Wait.  Because we have groups like NAMBLA, child molestation is in a gray area too, right? 

OzmO

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Re: Questions for Atheists
« Reply #99 on: October 19, 2006, 10:37:43 AM »
Who ever is trying ot suggest RAPE is ok or accepted in any capacity is wacked.

RAPE is bad. 

I don't care what cultures supported it.  Hell, Islamic culture supports beating your wife.  Still not good.