Author Topic: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!  (Read 770305 times)

Mayday

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #10900 on: April 30, 2024, 04:33:13 AM »
For any economist, mathematician, or Bitcoiner, our measure is BTC vs purchasing power (not BTC vs USD, or any other declining currency). So, for example if BTC has risen 12% to the USD, but the USD has during that time devalued 10% in purchasing power, you have actually only made a 2% gain in purchasing power when measured in BTC. Comparing to a declining currency is an illusion, much like it appears you are going forwards in a car, when in fact you are stationary and another car next to you is going backwards.

I buy any dip, because it gives me an opportunity to own more of a finite number of sats, which I am confident will go up in value over time. This is what I do, and indeed what we should all be doing. I care little about short-term upward movements, as I am a hodler. I don't intend to sell.

if you, or anyone, could reliably pick short term trends whether in BTC, or in shitcoins, you would be a billionaire. You may believe you can reliably and consistently do this, but you, and almost all people, cannot, much we all wish we could.

😉

gib

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #10901 on: April 30, 2024, 02:14:40 PM »
Obsidian - pretty much right on que...

https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/new-court-filings-show-sec-chair-gensler-believed-ethereum-was-security-for-at-least-year

Again, please do not blame me, or take this personally. I am simply telling us here what the law is. Whether the law should be changed or not, and whether you like the outcome of the current laws being applied, is of course a separate matter. But the law is the law - and for us as investors we really need to take note and understand this.


obsidian

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #10902 on: April 30, 2024, 05:53:35 PM »
Obsidian - pretty much right on que...

https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/new-court-filings-show-sec-chair-gensler-believed-ethereum-was-security-for-at-least-year

Again, please do not blame me, or take this personally. I am simply telling us here what the law is. Whether the law should be changed or not, and whether you like the outcome of the current laws being applied, is of course a separate matter. But the law is the law - and for us as investors we really need to take note and understand this.
Whatever he thinks is irrelevant. He does not get to decide this. It will be up to the courts if they decide to go that route. That Fox Business article also makes a lot of assumptions. They are assuming he thought it was a security because of Consensys suing the SEC. But that's just how they are reading it. They don't have the official word from Gensler himself.

He has also now been accused of misleading Congress on Ethereum.

Some think Consensys suing the SEC was a chess move to put pressure on Gensler. The Hong Kong ETH ETF is also considered to be a move to put pressure on the US SEC.

https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2024/04/30/houses-mchenry-accuses-sec-chief-gensler-of-misleading-congress-on-ethereum/

House's McHenry Accuses SEC Chief Gensler of Misleading Congress on Ethereum

The chairman of the House Financial Services Committee says Gensler refused to discuss his view on ETH in testimony even after the SEC was investigating it as a security.

U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) Chair Gary Gensler has been accused of misleading Congress by Rep. Patrick McHenry, the chairman of the House Financial Services Committee, who said Gensler's agency already knew it considered Ethereum's ether a security before he attended a hearing and declined to answer that question.

"Chair Gensler refused to answer questions regarding the SEC's classification of ether," McHenry said in a statement posted on X. "New court filings show this was an intentional attempt to misrepresent the commission's position."

The classification of (ETH), the second-largest cryptocurrency by market cap, is a major question hanging over the U.S. oversight of digital assets, and it's being fought on multiple legal fronts. If ETH is a security that should be registered and regulated by the SEC, then many other tokens may also fit that definition.

Documents in Consensys' newly filed lawsuit against the SEC describe how the agency was pursuing an investigation into the nature of ETH days before Gensler testified in April 2023. Consensys is suing the agency ahead of an expected SEC enforcement action.

Flexacon

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #10903 on: April 30, 2024, 08:08:30 PM »
A hawkish FED tomorrow and it won't be looking good. Risk off will continue and each BTC support could get taken out down to ETF approval levels. Who will save us?

Ironically a surprise ETH ETF approval might be the one thing that steadies price action. SEC has gone full retard, so any craziness is still possible there. Going after ETH/denying ETH ETF and at the same time they look likely to approve leveraged ETH futures ETFs in June. They might as well have a potato in charge.

Amerian Muscle

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #10904 on: May 01, 2024, 12:59:43 AM »
Ah shit here we go again :)

gib

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #10905 on: May 01, 2024, 02:10:44 AM »
Whatever he thinks is irrelevant. He does not get to decide this. It will be up to the courts if they decide to go that route. That Fox Business article also makes a lot of assumptions. They are assuming he thought it was a security because of Consensys suing the SEC. But that's just how they are reading it. They don't have the official word from Gensler himself.

He has also now been accused of misleading Congress on Ethereum.

Some think Consensys suing the SEC was a chess move to put pressure on Gensler. The Hong Kong ETH ETF is also considered to be a move to put pressure on the US SEC.

https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2024/04/30/houses-mchenry-accuses-sec-chief-gensler-of-misleading-congress-on-ethereum/

House's McHenry Accuses SEC Chief Gensler of Misleading Congress on Ethereum

The chairman of the House Financial Services Committee says Gensler refused to discuss his view on ETH in testimony even after the SEC was investigating it as a security.

U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) Chair Gary Gensler has been accused of misleading Congress by Rep. Patrick McHenry, the chairman of the House Financial Services Committee, who said Gensler's agency already knew it considered Ethereum's ether a security before he attended a hearing and declined to answer that question.

"Chair Gensler refused to answer questions regarding the SEC's classification of ether," McHenry said in a statement posted on X. "New court filings show this was an intentional attempt to misrepresent the commission's position."

The classification of (ETH), the second-largest cryptocurrency by market cap, is a major question hanging over the U.S. oversight of digital assets, and it's being fought on multiple legal fronts. If ETH is a security that should be registered and regulated by the SEC, then many other tokens may also fit that definition.

Documents in Consensys' newly filed lawsuit against the SEC describe how the agency was pursuing an investigation into the nature of ETH days before Gensler testified in April 2023. Consensys is suing the agency ahead of an expected SEC enforcement action.

What Gensler and the SEC think are relevant, to that extend that it is the SEC who enforces the law. However, you are correct that the SEC are not the final deciders of the law. That is of course for the Courts to do.

Whether or Gensler is accused of misleading congress is also irrelevant as to how the law will ultimately be enforced.

The act of Consensys suing the SEC will help get us towards more judicial clarity on the status of Eth and any of the securities law breaches those involved with it are liable for. Its really a double-edged sword to proactively bring such a case - could really backfire if they get an adverse determination.

Another country allowing an illegally issued security to be listed as an ETF is again, not of much relevance on an US court decision (although if there were legal arguments made in a foreign court, such arguments, whilst not binding, could be persuasive if well-reasoned. No "pressure" on the SEC at all in this regard - in fact it makes it easier to tell American's that if they want to buy unregulated products they do so on overseas exchanges. The far greater pressure is to ensure orderly and compliant US capital markets - ETH is a blip in the overall context of that, although approving ETH does risk much larger impact and ramifications of a flood of companies  raising public money by avoiding US listing rules.

Mayday

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #10906 on: May 01, 2024, 04:13:02 AM »
A hawkish FED tomorrow and it won't be looking good. Risk off will continue and each BTC support could get taken out down to ETF approval levels. Who will save us?

Ironically a surprise ETH ETF approval might be the one thing that steadies price action. SEC has gone full retard, so any craziness is still possible there. Going after ETH/denying ETH ETF and at the same time they look likely to approve leveraged ETH futures ETFs in June. They might as well have a potato in charge.

If only someone had warned us!!!!!

Hey imagine if 2024 year ended red!

Flexacon

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #10907 on: May 01, 2024, 05:17:37 AM »
If only someone had warned us!!!!!

Hey imagine if 2024 year ended red!

It was a great call, made even better by you not waiting for your $76k target to hit first.

I still have a bunch of staked positions open, but I expect to keep printing with them even in a downtrend (uptrend would print harder though)

I think macro is guiding us more than ever though and there is currently a huge put wall in ES that appeared almost out of no where. Maybe a front run of FOMC, so a V shape recovery may be on the cards or it could just be a line in the sand moment. First scenario could see BTC squeeze hard from here to $70k+ as it's only shorts left for the cabal to rek.  Not playing anything, but will be watching with the interest.

obsidian

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #10908 on: May 01, 2024, 05:22:32 AM »
What Gensler and the SEC think are relevant, to that extend that it is the SEC who enforces the law. However, you are correct that the SEC are not the final deciders of the law. That is of course for the Courts to do.

Whether or Gensler is accused of misleading congress is also irrelevant as to how the law will ultimately be enforced.

The act of Consensys suing the SEC will help get us towards more judicial clarity on the status of Eth and any of the securities law breaches those involved with it are liable for. Its really a double-edged sword to proactively bring such a case - could really backfire if they get an adverse determination.

Another country allowing an illegally issued security to be listed as an ETF is again, not of much relevance on an US court decision (although if there were legal arguments made in a foreign court, such arguments, whilst not binding, could be persuasive if well-reasoned. No "pressure" on the SEC at all in this regard - in fact it makes it easier to tell American's that if they want to buy unregulated products they do so on overseas exchanges. The far greater pressure is to ensure orderly and compliant US capital markets - ETH is a blip in the overall context of that, although approving ETH does risk much larger impact and ramifications of a flood of companies  raising public money by avoiding US listing rules.
I'm not worried about it. Another entity registered their ETH ETF fund. This could all be FUD to get the prices lowered so the funds can get in at lower floors. The ETH futures would not have been approved if there was all this uncertainty regarding ETH's commodity status. It's a commodity. There are no contracts. You can buy ETH without entering any contracts.

Worse case they order that access to metamask be removed. Plans are already in place to have it on Github as a downloadable executable that anyone can run on their computers.

Fidelity files registration statement for Ethereum ETF despite regulatory uncertainty
Fidelity's actions, alongside those of other firms aiming to introduce spot ether ETFs, illustrate the growing interest in integrating digital assets into traditional financial products.

https://cryptoslate.com/fidelity-files-registration-statement-for-ethereum-etf-despite-regulatory-uncertainty/

Franklin Templeton lists Ethereum ETF on DTCC
The DTCC listing does not guarantee SEC approval of Franklin’s spot Ether ETF application.

https://cointelegraph.com/news/franklin-templeton-launches-ethereum-etf-listed-on-dtcc

BlackRock, Grayscale Amend Ethereum ETF Applications After SEC Delays
The flurry of filings follows the SEC's announcement yesterday that it would delay its decision on multiple spot Ethereum ETF proposals.

https://decrypt.co/227817/blackrock-grayscale-amend-ethereum-etf-applications-after-sec-delays

gib

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #10909 on: May 01, 2024, 05:23:13 AM »
A hawkish FED tomorrow and it won't be looking good. Risk off will continue and each BTC support could get taken out down to ETF approval levels. Who will save us?

Ironically a surprise ETH ETF approval might be the one thing that steadies price action. SEC has gone full retard, so any craziness is still possible there. Going after ETH/denying ETH ETF and at the same time they look likely to approve leveraged ETH futures ETFs in June. They might as well have a potato in charge.

I took the opportunity to buy the dip (again just a tiny bit). I bought at exactly 56.8. Again, have no intention to trade - just happy to acquire more sats on the cheap.

Agree, short term, hawkish is bullish for the USD, (and negative for assets denominated in USD). This of course will also reverse if/when Fed becomes dovish, but in any case, the US will continue to print money, and hence devalue the USD relative to hard assets over time, regardless of interest rates.

An ETH ETF approval would definitely be positive for Eth and alts. Not so sure for BTC - lets see. But in any case, I very much doubt we would see such approval soon. Those who are so confident it will happen on May 23 are unfortunately in for a big disappointment. 

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #10910 on: May 01, 2024, 05:30:42 AM »
I'm not worried about it. Another entity registered their ETH ETF fund. This could all be FUD to get the prices lowered so the funds can get in at lower floors. The ETH futures would not have been approved if there was all this uncertainty regarding ETH's commodity status. It's a commodity. There are no contracts. You can buy ETH without entering any contracts.

Worse case they order that access to metamask be removed. Plans are already in place to have it on Github as a downloadable executable that anyone can run on their computers.

Fidelity files registration statement for Ethereum ETF despite regulatory uncertainty
Fidelity's actions, alongside those of other firms aiming to introduce spot ether ETFs, illustrate the growing interest in integrating digital assets into traditional financial products.

https://cryptoslate.com/fidelity-files-registration-statement-for-ethereum-etf-despite-regulatory-uncertainty/

Franklin Templeton lists Ethereum ETF on DTCC
The DTCC listing does not guarantee SEC approval of Franklin’s spot Ether ETF application.

https://cointelegraph.com/news/franklin-templeton-launches-ethereum-etf-listed-on-dtcc

BlackRock, Grayscale Amend Ethereum ETF Applications After SEC Delays
The flurry of filings follows the SEC's announcement yesterday that it would delay its decision on multiple spot Ethereum ETF proposals.

https://decrypt.co/227817/blackrock-grayscale-amend-ethereum-etf-applications-after-sec-delays

Anyone can file for anything. A filing is simply an request - it demonstrates nothing about the likelihood of approval. I could file for an ETH consisting of pink marshmallows - does not mean it will be approved.

Whether you think Eth is a commodity or not is irrelevant as to what a Court will decide on this issue. But if what you really mean is that you believe that a Court will decide that Eth is a commodity, and that this in turn will then require the SEC to allow spot ETH ETFs to list, and that this in turn will lead to a demand in ETH such that its price will rise, then fair enough - you should invest accordingly, and good luck to you!

SouJerz

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #10911 on: May 01, 2024, 08:10:37 AM »
Ah shit here we go again :)

What gold's Spot price?   Just breaking balls its what we men do.  If you still believe the BTC you bought with gold is going to go up then this is a great time to acquire more BTC. I just scooped up some more satoshis at 57K.

obsidian

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #10912 on: May 01, 2024, 12:37:23 PM »
Anyone can file for anything. A filing is simply an request - it demonstrates nothing about the likelihood of approval. I could file for an ETH consisting of pink marshmallows - does not mean it will be approved.

Whether you think Eth is a commodity or not is irrelevant as to what a Court will decide on this issue. But if what you really mean is that you believe that a Court will decide that Eth is a commodity, and that this in turn will then require the SEC to allow spot ETH ETFs to list, and that this in turn will lead to a demand in ETH such that its price will rise, then fair enough - you should invest accordingly, and good luck to you!
Just before the BTC ETFs were approved, several listings were made. Then there was the fiasco where the SEC tweeted that they approved the BTC ETFs. Then they said no, our account was hacked, we did not approve it. Then a few hours later they say, we approved it. What a bunch of fucking yoyos / amateurs! Fuck me!

XRP / Ripple was judged to not be a security. How on earth will the SEC be able to prove ETH is a security if they could not prove XRP was?

Btw, Larry Fink of Blackrock says it doesn't matter even if Ethereum is classified as a security after a lawsuit. Not sure he's reasoning, but I am sure he's got some info we don't have.

obsidian

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #10913 on: May 01, 2024, 12:44:26 PM »
An ETH ETF approval would definitely be positive for Eth and alts. Not so sure for BTC - lets see. But in any case, I very much doubt we would see such approval soon. Those who are so confident it will happen on May 23 are unfortunately in for a big disappointment.
Why would it be a negative for BTC? Cryptos all rise and fall with each other. Have you ever seen a bull run where only one token goes up and nothing else?

Amadeo Brands predicted the previous bull run tops. He had BTC at $70K and ETH at $5K. That's about as close as you could get.

This time his predictions are:

Optimistic:
BTC: $276,000 (4x increase)
ETH: $29,220 (6x increase)

Moderately Bullish:
BTC: $172,500 (2.5x increase)
ETH: $19,480 (4x increase)

Conservative:
BTC: $103,500 (1.5x increase)
ETH: $12,175 (2.5x increase)

In this video he states he thinks the optimistic scenario is most likely because he is an optimist.


Amerian Muscle

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #10914 on: May 01, 2024, 01:13:36 PM »
What gold's Spot price?   Just breaking balls its what we men do.  If you still believe the BTC you bought with gold is going to go up then this is a great time to acquire more BTC. I just scooped up some more satoshis at 57K.
If I hadnt sold, gold would be at 1800 now and btc at 120k

Amerian Muscle

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #10915 on: May 01, 2024, 01:15:54 PM »
Really, I have been in the red for years now. I would be so much wealthier if I had never bought anything. It gets really exhausting psychologically

SouJerz

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #10916 on: May 01, 2024, 01:31:26 PM »
If I hadnt sold, gold would be at 1800 now and btc at 120k

I don’t think that’s how it works chief. 

SouJerz

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #10917 on: May 01, 2024, 01:32:20 PM »
Really, I have been in the red for years now. I would be so much wealthier if I had never bought anything. It gets really exhausting psychologically

Something tells me you aren’t DCA the BTC.

Mayday

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #10918 on: May 01, 2024, 05:43:13 PM »
It was a great call, made even better by you not waiting for your $76k target to hit first.

I still have a bunch of staked positions open, but I expect to keep printing with them even in a downtrend (uptrend would print harder though)

I think macro is guiding us more than ever though and there is currently a huge put wall in ES that appeared almost out of no where. Maybe a front run of FOMC, so a V shape recovery may be on the cards or it could just be a line in the sand moment. First scenario could see BTC squeeze hard from here to $70k+ as it's only shorts left for the cabal to rek.  Not playing anything, but will be watching with the interest.

Yep.

The BTC ATH is in for the cycle ✅   Even if we come back up later the 76k remains the target.

The trap used is the timing. 99% believe the BTC cycle top correlates to an ATH price because that is what they have seen in the past. The reality is the cycle tops are a measurement of time, price doesn’t have to be an ATH. I warned the methodology of DCA is a BS narrative sold to retail to create a longer and larger inflow of capital to a market. So we do an ATH now and create an 18mth runway of dip buyers 😀

The ETH ETF will be approved and the timing will have meaning. We get one shot to dump and it’s the first peak. To clarify I mean when it eventually does get approved, the timing will be of important note of the start and when the peak will occur.

Over the next period you watch how many fuckers come out with 103k targets after saying 200k+.

gib

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #10919 on: May 02, 2024, 01:46:58 AM »
"An ETH ETF approval would definitely be positive for Eth and alts. Not so sure for BTC - lets see. But in any case, I very much doubt we would see such approval soon. Those who are so confident it will happen on May 23 are unfortunately in for a big disappointment."

Why would it be a negative for BTC? Cryptos all rise and fall with each other. Have you ever seen a bull run where only one token goes up and nothing else?


I could be a negative to BTC in that alts, at least initially, were promoted as being an alternative to Bitcoin  - hence the term "alts". That being the case, and given that alts are unlimited in number and supply vs total inflows into "crypto" which are inherently finite, opening up flows to alts are arguably dilutive to BTC. So, that's how an ETF (which potentially encourages dilutive flows into shitcoins), could be harmful to BTC (at least in the short term).

As for why "cryptos rise and fall with each other", actually, over time, most simply fall. However it is correct, that when BTC rises, various shitcoins and "alts" rise. But we must understand - its BTC market cap which drives some inflows into shitcoins seeking to cannibalize BTC's market cap, and not the other way around...

gib

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #10920 on: May 02, 2024, 01:53:40 AM »

XRP / Ripple was judged to not be a security. How on earth will the SEC be able to prove ETH is a security if they could not prove XRP was?

Btw, Larry Fink of Blackrock says it doesn't matter even if Ethereum is classified as a security after a lawsuit. Not sure he's reasoning, but I am sure he's got some info we don't have.

XRP WAS held to be an illegally issued security. And hence Ripple and its various executives are now facing huge fines and possible criminal sentences. What was not help to be a criminal breach of securities laws, was for individuals to trade those illegally issued shares among themselves. Read the judgement - its quite clearly written and explained (and also still very unclear whether an exchange is permitted to facilitate the trade of such illegally issued securities). It is for this reason, obviously, that you have not seen any XRP ETF approved (which you would think would be the case, following your logic).

Not sure what is meant by the Fink quote, but it is clear that ETH as a technology will continue despite ETH being ruled a security and despite there being no Eth ETF. Maybe that is what he meant?

obsidian

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #10921 on: May 02, 2024, 04:33:01 AM »
XRP WAS held to be an illegally issued security. And hence Ripple and its various executives are now facing huge fines and possible criminal sentences. What was not help to be a criminal breach of securities laws, was for individuals to trade those illegally issued shares among themselves. Read the judgement - its quite clearly written and explained (and also still very unclear whether an exchange is permitted to facilitate the trade of such illegally issued securities). It is for this reason, obviously, that you have not seen any XRP ETF approved (which you would think would be the case, following your logic).

Not sure what is meant by the Fink quote, but it is clear that ETH as a technology will continue despite ETH being ruled a security and despite there being no Eth ETF. Maybe that is what he meant?
This is incorrect. XRP was determined to not be a security. Go read up on the case. Why are you posting this? My question again is if the SEC could not prove that XRP was a security, how will they do so with ETH?

https://www.investopedia.com/what-does-the-xrp-not-a-security-ruling-mean-for-other-cryptocurrencies-7561320#:~:text=KEY%20TAKEAWAYS,crypto%20waged%20by%20the%20SEC.

KEY TAKEAWAYS
A Thursday court ruling in Ripple's case with the SEC indicated that the digital asset XRP is not a security.

The crypto industry has responded positively to the news, with crypto exchanges relisting XRP and many hoping this will lead to an end to the perceived war on crypto waged by the SEC.

The ruling will undoubtedly have an impact on the SEC's cases against Binance and Coinbase, and the fact that many U.S.-based exchanges have decided to relist XRP is seen as positive development for Binance and Coinbase's legal standing.

While there is reason for crypto enthusiasts to rejoice over the short term, the reality is the Ripple ruling may not be the end-all-be-all method by which crypto assets are classified.

https://www.globalcompliancenews.com/2023/07/28/https-insightplus-bakermckenzie-com-bm-data-technology-united-states-finally-a-court-decides-xrp-by-itself-is-not-a-security-your-turn-congress_07252023/

Orange groves are not securities and neither is XRP: Back to Howey basics
While the Ripple decision contains other important holdings, for the sake of Howey and the crypto industry, perhaps no holding was as important as returning to the basics: that is, the purpose of the Howey test and the distinction between an investment contract and its subject asset. In assessing the XRP token, Judge Torres recognized that any asset can be the subject of an investment contract, but selling any asset (including a digital asset) via an investment contract does not automatically make that subject asset into a security. Rather, whether the sale and distribution of XRP, orange groves, or any other asset (a non-security) constitutes an investment contract (a security) depends on the totality of the circumstances surrounding each contract, transaction, or scheme through which the asset is sold and distributed (i.e., a transaction-by-transaction analysis).

When looking at XRP, Judge Torres was unequivocal in holding that XRP, the digital asset by itself, is not “a ‘contract, transaction, or scheme’ that embodies the Howey requirements of an investment contract,” and thus it is not a security. In that sense, XRP, the digital asset, is no different than the orange groves in Howey. In Howey, investors purchased ownership interests in parcels of orange groves coupled with a service agreement for another person to cultivate, harvest and market the crops and remit the net proceeds to the passive investors. It was the entirety of that arrangement that constituted the investment contract in Howey, not the orange groves themselves.

Re-establishing the basic Howey analysis framework may be the most important outcome of the Order, and arguably one less likely to be overturned on appeal. Moreover, the Securities Clarity Act and the recently introduced Financial Innovation and Technology (FIT) for the 21st Century Act would further reinforce the distinction between the investment contract and the underlying asset. Indeed, the connection was immediately highlighted by Rep. Emmers in reaction to the Order.

gib

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #10922 on: May 02, 2024, 04:40:42 AM »
Obsidian- you are a smart guy. I urge you to read the case, as opposed to watching youtubers or reading short summaries.

The entire case is public. However, if you do want a short snippet which explains, see here:

https://www.reuters.com/markets/us/sec-seeking-2-billion-ripple-labs-chief-legal-officer-says-2024-03-25/#

"Torres ruled in July that the blockchain company's sale of XRP worth $728.9 million to hedge funds and other sophisticated buyers amounted to unlawful sales of unregistered securities."

It is beyond doubt that the judge ruled that these tokens ARE securities, and further that they were ILLEGALLY ISSUED.
 
As to what is happening to the decision that XRP issuers committed SEC violations by issuing illegal securities, I believe there will be a further trial on this later this year, unless of course these executives and the company admit liability, possibly agree to jail time, and pay Billions in punishment. So, if they settle, we are left with a very clear ruling, which was not appealed, that XRP was an illegally issued security. And if not settled, this will go to trail, risking an adverse finding that makes it entirely clear that the Howey test was clearly violated (not just by Ripple but by most alt coin issuers). That then still leaves, for now, the issue open as to where such illegally issued securities may be publicly traded (we can let Coinbase etc fight that one, and by the way there are far more than just securities laws being breached with such conduct which may also be enforced), but either way, these are all reasons why many with a legal background believe that ETFs of such assets are very unlikely to be approved (at least not unless there is legislative change).

Again, some possible upside for ETH if an EFT is eventually approved (although also quite a possibility of a downside due to disappointing investor demand), but either way, a lot at stake. The "safe bet" is to align with BTC. The riskier bet, is to hope somehow that things change in relation to the legal status of alts, and that this in turn leads to upside for you. For ETH, also be very weary, it can be infinitely diluted by alts to Eth - SOL, etc, which is also weighing on its demand as a desirable asset to hold long term.

obsidian

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #10923 on: May 02, 2024, 05:52:59 PM »
Obsidian- you are a smart guy. I urge you to read the case, as opposed to watching youtubers or reading short summaries.

The entire case is public. However, if you do want a short snippet which explains, see here:

https://www.reuters.com/markets/us/sec-seeking-2-billion-ripple-labs-chief-legal-officer-says-2024-03-25/#

"Torres ruled in July that the blockchain company's sale of XRP worth $728.9 million to hedge funds and other sophisticated buyers amounted to unlawful sales of unregistered securities."

It is beyond doubt that the judge ruled that these tokens ARE securities, and further that they were ILLEGALLY ISSUED.
 
As to what is happening to the decision that XRP issuers committed SEC violations by issuing illegal securities, I believe there will be a further trial on this later this year, unless of course these executives and the company admit liability, possibly agree to jail time, and pay Billions in punishment. So, if they settle, we are left with a very clear ruling, which was not appealed, that XRP was an illegally issued security. And if not settled, this will go to trail, risking an adverse finding that makes it entirely clear that the Howey test was clearly violated (not just by Ripple but by most alt coin issuers). That then still leaves, for now, the issue open as to where such illegally issued securities may be publicly traded (we can let Coinbase etc fight that one, and by the way there are far more than just securities laws being breached with such conduct which may also be enforced), but either way, these are all reasons why many with a legal background believe that ETFs of such assets are very unlikely to be approved (at least not unless there is legislative change).

Again, some possible upside for ETH if an EFT is eventually approved (although also quite a possibility of a downside due to disappointing investor demand), but either way, a lot at stake. The "safe bet" is to align with BTC. The riskier bet, is to hope somehow that things change in relation to the legal status of alts, and that this in turn leads to upside for you. For ETH, also be very weary, it can be infinitely diluted by alts to Eth - SOL, etc, which is also weighing on its demand as a desirable asset to hold long term.
Not that I view Reuters as the bastion of truth. It's still controlled by the "Tribe".

But in your own link, you left out the part at the bottom:

While the SEC partly won the case, Torres dealt the regulator a high-profile setback when she ruled that XRP Ripple sold on public cryptocurrency exchanges did not meet the legal definition of a security.

Torres denied the SEC's request to repeal that ruling while the case is in progress. But the regulator may appeal once the judge decides its request for penalties.


^^^^^^^^
XRP sold to the general public on exchanges was not ruled to be a security. There were no contracts. The same will apply to ETH obviously. I signed no contracts when I mined or bought ETH. The speculation for me was no different than your speculation with BTC. Or someone who buys a baseball card. I also have put a lot more work and sweat equity to acquire ETH than you did with your BTC. But the bottom line is, the ETH I bought or mined was not a security based on the findings of the Ripple / XRP case. That's the precedent.

I will add that the SEC is of course completely corrupt. I know you are looking towards them for selfish, greedy reasons to pump your BTC bags at the expense of other token holders. You already stated that in this thread. So you want the SEC to fuck all other investors (when their stated mission is to protect investors) who don't hold BTC so you can make more money with BTC. Nice. Obviously I am not onboard with that. Not once have I said something like that. I have opined that I think smaller market cap tokens might pump more than larger caps like BTC or ETH. But I don't want to see anyone "lose" money, whichever tokens they are invested in. And I would not champion a corrupt entity like the SEC to go after projects that I am not invested in.

Mayday

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Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #10924 on: May 02, 2024, 11:48:07 PM »

A young kid just Launched his own token while streaming. His Mum for some weird reason showed up on camera in a singlet and starts juggling her boobs right next to his head saying he used to suck on them. People start giving tips and it’s going bing bing as money rolls in.

Urgh, we are about to get so fucked.