Read the book of Matthew

[bigbobs]

So Christians disagree, as do many Muslims, as do many Jews.  Big deal.

But all Christians agree that Jesus Christ died for our sins.  

LOL Muslims do NOT disagree over something so fundamental as whether faith alone, or a combination of faith and actions, determine your destiny.  Our differences in interpretation are over minor aspects.

[a_ahmed]

You know I find it lame that he keeps posting these broad verses and then THINKS we will use imagination to form the trinity belief in our head.

I mean the verses you post can be interepreted so many ways its laughable.. and he is jus CHOSING to interpret them the way he sees fit.

For instance what does God's work being accept the one he sent mean? WOW! Mind blown! YES, as Muslims we believe that in fact it is a necessary action, deed, 'work', to accept the messengers God sent as a part of true faith. AND?

Now you can twist that verse to mean whateer you want with "faith alone". It doesn't even make sense.

I love Islam, it's so straight forward, no mystery, no non-sense, everything is laid out straight and simple terms. No confusion. You either follow or don't follow but don't make up stuff along the way to suit your whims and desires.

[loco]

LOL Muslims do NOT disagree over something so fundamental as whether faith alone, or a combination of faith and actions, determine your destiny.  Our differences in interpretation are over minor aspects.

LOL...Muslims don't kill each other over religious stuff, ever?

[loco]

You know I find it lame that he keeps posting these broad verses and then THINKS we will use imagination to form the trinity belief in our head.

I mean the verses you post can be interepreted so many ways its laughable.. and he is jus CHOSING to interpret them the way he sees fit.

For instance what does God's work being accept the one he sent mean? WOW! Mind blown! YES, as Muslims we believe that in fact it is a necessary action, deed, 'work', to accept the messengers God sent as a part of true faith. AND?

Now you can twist that verse to mean whateer you want with "faith alone". It doesn't even make sense.

I love Islam, it's so straight forward, no mystery, no non-sense, everything is laid out straight and simple terms. No confusion. You either follow or don't follow but don't make up stuff along the way to suit your whims and desires.

You interpret the Bible and the Quran to fit your own belief system.

[bigbobs]

I love Islam, it's so straight forward, no mystery, no non-sense, everything is laid out straight and simple terms. No confusion. You either follow or don't follow but don't make up stuff along the way to suit your whims and desires.

x2 but a religion needs non-contradictory scripture to achieve this, something that can not be claimed of the Bible.

[a_ahmed]

You interpret the Bible and the Quran to fit your own belief system.

Nope I read the bible with the intention of being a better Christian. I read it with no preconceived notions read it for what it says. You are the one that skips what you want but blindly follows what you desire such as the trinity which is no where in the bible. A historical fact that it was only fully formulated 400 years after Jesus, only began to be 'debated' officially 300 years after (such as who was/is Jesus, who is God) etc...

I read the qur'an and it was the primary thing to make me want to become a Muslim. It answered my many questions and problems with the bible and just reaffirmed what was. It is the true word of God.

[loco]

You know I find it lame that he keeps posting these broad verses and then THINKS we will use imagination to form the trinity belief in our head.

I mean the verses you post can be interepreted so many ways its laughable.. and he is jus CHOSING to interpret them the way he sees fit.

For instance what does God's work being accept the one he sent mean? WOW! Mind blown! YES, as Muslims we believe that in fact it is a necessary action, deed, 'work', to accept the messengers God sent as a part of true faith. AND?

Now you can twist that verse to mean whateer you want with "faith alone". It doesn't even make sense.

I love Islam, it's so straight forward, no mystery, no non-sense, everything is laid out straight and simple terms. No confusion. You either follow or don't follow but don't make up stuff along the way to suit your whims and desires.

Why does this confuse you?  Even bigbobs agrees that this supports salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.   

You say you must do "the works God requires" in order to go to Heaven.  Well, Jesus says you must believe in him.  That is the "good work" or "good action" that God requires in order to go to Heaven.

John 6:28-29
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

[a_ahmed]

And therefore I answered we Muslims also believe that you MUST accept the messengers and prophets of God, this is a mandatory action and deed, a true part of faith. Otherwise rejection is the opposite of faith. We do not reject the prophets or messengers of God. in order to be Muslim we must accept Jesus, Abraham, Moses, Noah, the whole line of prophets and messengers

Scripture is not going in your favour its going in the favour of what islam teaches, not what the church teaches.

You are the one that will reinterpret something like this and make it mean "AAH but it means through accepting Jesus you are saved and thats it! ITS FAITH!" Or whatever other non-sense. I can't even formulate that non-sense in words. The reason it becomes non-sense is the way you present it is so skewed because you mix truth and falsehood in the same kettle.

[bigbobs]

Why does this confuse you?  Even bigbobs agrees that this supports salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.  

Dont put words in my mouth.  I said that certain verses can be interpreted as such (i.e. they do not concretely state your interpretation and there still confusion over their meaning), and this is coupled with other Biblical verses which contradict your interpretation.

[loco]

Dont put words in my mouth.  I said that certain verses can be interpreted as such (i.e. they do not concretely state your interpretation and there still confusion over their meaning), and this is coupled with other Biblical verses which contradict your interpretation.

Actually yes, I did have problems responding to your other posts.  A few of the verses I simply said I had no idea what you were trying to imply or get me to respond to.  And even when responding to some of your Bible quotes I'm not always sure that I'm addressing what you're trying to question.

The verses above that you posted tell me that it is faith not actions that determine where one spends eternity.  Believe that Jesus is your saviour and you will be saved, etc.  How are your verses at all contradictory to what I've been saying?

[a_ahmed]

See I wana hear it point blank no playing around with verses or words.

Do you guys think an evil person who commits evil actions in this world but accepts Jesus as his savior is going to heaven or hell? Point in case, he continues to do evil deeds yet professes that Jesus is god, his savior, salvation etc... Come clean.

That's why I always say you play on words to fool people emotionally. Love, salvation, my personal saviour, faith in the holy spirit, the holy spirit dwells through me, I am saved, all emotional catchy phrases but what are the facts? No need to toy with and manipulating verses.

The verses contradict your beliefs or at least, the verses contradict themselves back and forth.

Straight up.

[loco]

x2 but a religion needs non-contradictory scripture to achieve this, something that can not be claimed of the Bible.

The Qur'an is full of contradictions, Muslims disagree on its interpretations, and it's a text from one man who claimed to have received it from an angel who claimed to have received it from God.    

[scottt]

Only righteous people will be saved.even the Devil believes in Jesus and Jehovah.

[loco]

Only righteous people will be saved.even the Devil believes in Jesus and Jehovah.

What about this criminal?

Luke 23:39-43
39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”
40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence?
41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”
42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

[scottt]

He was truely sorry and Jesus can read the heart so he forgave him and let his faith be counted as righteousness. God gave Jesus the responsibility of judgement.

[bigbobs]

Loco similar to how you pick, choose and interpret what you want from the Bible, you do the same with my posts

Again, what's your point?  Yeah it can be interpreted that that these verses teach salvation through Jesus, which is a primary reason I don't believe in their accuracy.

The bigger reason I doubt their accuracy is because it is simply unjust and unreasonable (Ahmed just explained in detail as to why).

Another reason I doubt its accuracy is because other Biblical verses indicate that actions determine where you will spend eternity.

[bigbobs]

He was truely sorry and Jesus can read the heart so he forgave him and let his faith be counted as righteousness. God gave Jesus the responsibility of judgement.

So you're saying God and Jesus are two separate entities?

[loco]

He was truely sorry and Jesus can read the heart so he forgave him and let his faith be counted as righteousness. God gave Jesus the responsibility of judgement.

But you said "Only righteous people will be saved"

Are you saying that a criminal's faith in Jesus will be counted as righteousness? 

[scottt]

No, I am not. Faith without works is dead. Only Jesus can make the judgement, he read the hearts of those criminals on the cross (were sinners like us) but they were very different. Its hard for us to understand because we can only judge what we see, not whats on the inside.

[Man of Steel]

So you're saying God and Jesus are two separate entities?

Christians worship one God and Christianity is monotheistic.  We serve a single God whose transcendent, eternal being is represented by 3 coequal, coeternal persons.  Please keep in mind that the term "persons" should not be considered or treated in a human capacity.  This is a means to define the trinitarian essence of God for the sake of human understanding.  God the father, God the son and God the Holy Spirit are not each 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 of God or 1+1+1=1 (fallacy).....mathematically its better expressed as 1x1x1=1.  The trinity of God is not 3 separate deities.  Think of it in terms of time...past, present and future.  We don't have 3 separate "times", we just have time.  Time is again expressed in three coequal parts...past, present and future.  God is eternal, God is one.  The term "trinity" is not found in scripture, but the essence of God being expressed in the trinity of father, son and spirit is absolutely revealed in scripture.  Believers have attempted to capture that under the umbrella of the term "trinity".  Coining term "trinity" did not "invent the trinity".  The 3rd century councils did not invent the "trinity".  Paul did not "invent the trinity".  Scripture reveals the trinity.  Christ revealed the trinity.  Christ revealed his message to Paul via divine revelation.  The disciples affirmed Paul's ministry.  Do sects of believers deny the trinity?  Yes.  Are they correct?  No.  Are there debates amongs differing sects of virtually every religion/theology?  Yes.

[Man of Steel]

See I wana hear it point blank no playing around with verses or words.

Do you guys think an evil person who commits evil actions in this world but accepts Jesus as his savior is going to heaven or hell? Point in case, he continues to do evil deeds yet professes that Jesus is god, his savior, salvation etc... Come clean.

That's why I always say you play on words to fool people emotionally. Love, salvation, my personal saviour, faith in the holy spirit, the holy spirit dwells through me, I am saved, all emotional catchy phrases but what are the facts? No need to toy with and manipulating verses.

The verses contradict your beliefs or at least, the verses contradict themselves back and forth.

Straight up.

Me, I don't believe the person is a believer.  Doesn't represent Christ and has an unrepentant heart.  Simply "saying the words" doesn't make it so.  God knows the contents of our hearts.

ahmed, I can only speak for myself, but there's virtually nothing else to say to you anymore.  You don't believe, you won't believe and you've found your truth in Islam.  You're here to defend Islam and ridicule Christians....straight up.    

[scottt]

The trinity has its roots in ancient Babylons false religion. Jesus had a prehuman existence with his Father in Heaven and prayed to him while he was with us on earth. Why would a God pray to himself?

[loco]

No, I am not. Faith without works is dead. Only Jesus can make the judgement, he read the hearts of those criminals on the cross (were sinners like us) but they were very different. Its hard for us to understand because we can only judge what we see, not whats on the inside.

Faith without works is dead?  I agree, but what good works did the criminal at the cross do?  And Can Jesus not read your heart today?

I agree with you that if a person sincerely believes in Jesus, that person will do good works as a result of his/her faith, unless they are about to die like the criminal on the cross.

[Man of Steel]

The trinity has its roots in ancient Babylons false religion. Jesus had a prehuman existence with his Father in Heaven and prayed to him while he was with us on earth. Why would a God pray to himself?

It's also said that the trinity has roots in the ancient Egyptian trinity.  Or that Christ is based on the god Mithra or Horus or Zeus, etc....

For the same reason that Jesus said he didn't know the hour of his return....only the Father knows that.  So, does this contradict Jesus' deity?  Not even a little bit.  Why did the Son of God come to Earth in the form of man and live among his creation as any man would?  He came to fulfill what Israel could not in the OT while at the same time establishing a new covenant with man.  Christ came and submitted to the Father so that we may recognize how we should submit to God's will.  He fellowshipped with men, he ate with men, he traveled with men, he taught men, he lived as a man.  But make no mistake, Jesus Christ is God.  Christ forgave sins, Christ raised the dead, Christ healed the sick, Christ commanded demons, Christ miracously fed multitudes.  Christ affirmed his deity and gave undeniable examples of his deity, but didn't return to his glory until after he was crucified and rose.  Before his resurrection he chose to live as man, but fully connected to his divine Fatherly essence in heaven.  Based on that connection, he did the impossible and affirmed that he was God while still existing in a limited form as a man - a limited existance he choose.  As a man he maintained his connection with his divine essence through prayer, but his act of prayer was also an example for man to follow.  He lived as a man so that we may understand how to live and submit to God.  Why did he also choose this limited state as a man?  Simple, because God can't die (he is eternal), but a God who limits his form to that of a normal man can die.  He came as the perfect man, the perfect sacrifice that died for all forgiving all sins for those that claim him as their risen Lord and Savior.  After his resurrection his returned to his full glory and power as the divine Son of God that always existed at the right hand of the Father.  As the resurrected Son of God he was transformed and those closest to him didn't recognize him at first because he transformed into his divine state.  He then displayed the divine ability to instantly move from place to place as only God can and reclaimed his omniscient status as the Son of God who knows all things.

John 11:41-42
41 So they rolled the stone aside. Then Jesus looked up to heaven and said, “Father, thank you for hearing me. 42 You always hear me, but I said it out loud for the sake of all these people standing here, so that they will believe you sent me.”

[a_ahmed]

the same reason that Jesus said he didn't know the hour of his return....only the Father knows that.  So, does this contradict Jesus' deity?  Not even a little bit.

Sure it does, it makes God unable to know something if he is god which he is not. Jesus differentiated himself from God all the time. That's why your argument has so little validity and credibility.

When you go and say "I have the holy spirit dwelling in me I am convinced" it really is meaningless.

Ironically the 'holy spirit' was not even talked about until 400 years after Jesus in part to this 'trinity'. The council of nicea 300 years after Jesus only talked about who is/was Jesus and who is God.

So you see.. no matter how you spin it, Jesus is not God and your arguments fall apart.