Best IFBB historian - Tim Fogarty or Joe Roark?

[timfogarty]

And don't fancy yourself with your time being worth $300,000 dollars.  If that was the case then you wouldn't be looking for a job

Melvin, why be so petty?   I'm not looking for a job.  I've chosen to stay at home, work on other things, try my hand at being an entrepreneur.    Now times are tough, and I do question whether I made the right decision, as in the last 3 years I've made half of what I made in 2004.   But I'll continue until my Apple stock (bought at split adjusted price of $7) runs out.

Why throw money at something people don't care about?? 

the calls and emails I've received from golden age bodybuilders makes it worthwhile

[240 is Back]

A few thoughts...

Tim's site is popular and well-respected and used by many in the sport.  Tim does it for free.

Tim is more than a 'data entry clerk', as he designed what is a pretty comprehensive database system - that is no small programming task!

In a sport with a historical record marred by politics and poor record keeping, an unbiased database like this is great.  Remember the mess when Bob Chic doubted the statemeny by Rhino that he had won a particular show - despite seeing the pics of the show and hearing the words of the man who finished third to Jack at that show.  A BBing historian like Bob had NO CLUE what the NAABA results were, because the NPC/IFBB doesn't have an interest in the records of shows they don't run.

Tim is like WIKI for bodybuilding shows and competitors.  If you've done a bigger show, you're part of the BBing history book.  It isn't politically biased (there will be no re-writing history).

Best of all, it's free.

[timfogarty]

A BBing historian like Bob had NO CLUE what the NAABA results were, because the NPC/IFBB doesn't have an interest in the records of shows they don't run.

unfortunately, the NPC has no interest in the records of the shows they do run.   Local and regional results are not sent up to the main office.  And there is no mandate to save records.

In 2007, I asked a promoter for results from his state championships a month after the event.  He said he never got a copy from the judges.   I asked the head judge.  He said he didn't keep a copy.   It's as if the contest never happened.

[Matt C]

I'm a licensed naturopath and trainer, that's what I do for a living, Tim.  Homeopathic supplements have been  approved and regulated since 1938.

Not that I believe in regulatory agencies anyway, but somebody did point out that regulation only speaks for safety and not for efficacy.  Where is the proof of efficacy?

To 240 or Bust: was Frank Sepe in Rhino's show?

[The Master]

Not that I believe in regulatory agencies anyway, but somebody did point out that regulation only speaks for safety and not for efficacy.  Where is the proof of efficacy?

To 240 or Bust: was Frank Sepe in Rhino's show?

Haha, do you expect him to practice something proven to work, when his IQ probably is around 85? 

[Matt C]

Haha, do you expect him to practice something proven to work, when his IQ probably is around 85? 

If I knew nothing about Vince other than his skin colour, I would most definitely, most absolutely assume that.

Genetic theory and racial profiling are both very accurate on this count.

Having said that, Vince seems competent in HTML, so I will assume a higher IQ.  Note that a black person with a 100 IQ and a white person with a 100 IQ still do not have the exact same type of intelligence.

[240 is Back]

I don't know if Frank Sepe was in the show.  The guy in the pics looked like him.

Tim might know, or Big Ant - another competitor in that show - might know if Frank was in the lineup or not.

[TroubleReady39]

Note that a black person with a 100 IQ and a white person with a 100 IQ still do not have the exact same type of intelligence.

that's some racist bullshit right there, matt.

[timfogarty]

that's some racist bullshit right there, matt.

I really wish SMF had killfiles.   Vince/Melvin would have been in it long ago.   Matt would be a new addition.

[IFBBwannaB]

that's some racist bullshit right there, matt.

No shit.

But what is expected from someone that spends most of his life surfing the web instead of actually interacting with people and seeing for himself?

He is a stupid little (literally) man that should be perma banned from here.

[Matt C]

that's some racist bullshit right there, matt.

I suppose anything that doesn't subscribe to the egalitarian fraud is considered racist these days.  How is it bullshit though?  It is not my opinion, but rather, a scientifically sound conclusion.  It has in fact been tested many times.  TroubleReady39, what is your take on the subject?

[IFBBwannaB]

I suppose anything that doesn't subscribe to the egalitarian fraud is considered racist these days.  How is it bullshit though?  It is not my opinion, but rather, a scientifically sound conclusion.  It has in fact been tested many times.  TroubleReady39, what is your take on the subject?

 Too stupid to even understand it.

[Matt C]

Too stupid to even understand it.

Read what the peer reviewed scientifically literature has to say and you will see that there is indeed a consensus in the scientific community on this.

[timfogarty]

How is it bullshit though?  It is not my opinion, but rather, a scientifically sound conclusion.

1) IQ tests are culturally based.  if you have a different culture, you'll score lower
2) there is no such thing as the black race.  there are people of African descent, but blacks in the US are a mix of African and European.   there is no one characteristic that makes you black.  there are fair skinned blacks, and dark skinned non-blacks.   same with eyes, nose, lips, hair, etc.  There is no characteristic that all blacks have.
3) there are many blacks and many africans with advanced degrees.  there are many non-blacks dumber than dirt.
4) that the bell curve of one group of people is different than another group says nothing about genes.  It may say something about class, our education system, our health care system, and bigotry.

[timfogarty]

Read what the peer reviewed scientifically literature has to say and you will see that there is indeed a consensus in the scientific community on this.

yes there is a consensus in the scientific community, but it's the opposite of what you claim

[IFBBwannaB]

Read what the peer reviewed scientifically literature has to say and you will see that there is indeed a consensus in the scientific community on this.

You should first start with the consensus says that IQ are far from being an objective way to measure intelligence.
Than proceed to the fact that you cant really define it, beside the obvious fact that we know that you lack it.

After you're done with those two, read Tim reply....understand that you have once again made yourself look like a racist idiot that is in awe of the immense IQ of the Jewish people and keep drooling over the almost complete rule of black people on most sports (which you fail at) than come back here and post a reply saying you're sorry.

BTW did you remember to hang off the nuts of Ron today? Or estimate the inferior Vince by his HTML skills?  


(I'm seeing a huge meltdown from you in the near future)

[NarcissisticDeity]

If I knew nothing about Vince other than his skin colour, I would most definitely, most absolutely assume that.

Genetic theory and racial profiling are both very accurate on this count.

Having said that, Vince seems competent in HTML, so I will assume a higher IQ.  Note that a black person with a 100 IQ and a white person with a 100 IQ still do not have the exact same type of intelligence.

An intelligent person would know when to quit whilst their ahead . Matt you're doing irreversible damage here. 

[IFBBwannaB]

An intelligent person would know when to quit whilst their ahead . Matt you're doing irreversible damage here. 

Come on now...he found a new way to measure people.

HTML skills >>>> thousends of posts and people meeting Vince.

Matt is a nut swinger...hanging of Vince nuts (for some free supps or something) and Ron nuts...although they are both "inferior"....lame.

[NarcissisticDeity]

You should first start with the consensus says that IQ are far from being an objective way to measure intelligence.
Than proceed to the fact that you cant really define it, beside the obvious fact that we know that you lack it.

After you're done with those two, read Tim reply....understand that you have once again made yourself look like a racist idiot that is in awe of the immense IQ of the Jewish people and keep drooling over the almost complete rule of black people on most sports (which you fail at) than come back here and post a reply saying you're sorry.

BTW did you remember to hang off the nuts of Ron today? Or estimate the inferior Vince by his HTML skills? 


(I'm seeing a huge meltdown from you in the near future)

Great post ! Matt is teetering on the edge , he's ripe for a classic GetBig meltdown

[Matt C]

An intelligent person would know when to quit whilst their ahead . Matt you're doing irreversible damage here. 

Not really.  I'm waking up a lot of people to this egalitarian fraud actually.  You'd be amazed how many PMs I get from people agreeing with me - proof that people are afraid to speak the truth on this topic just as they have been brainwashed to be.

If I couldn't back EVERYTHING I'm saying with scientific studies, I wouldn't say it.  The fact is, I can.  That's why the leftists are so scared of me, because they know they can't prove me wrong.

QFT:

http://www.bigdonsboys.com/adorable/images/466379663jfcmvy_fs.jpg

[CigaretteMan]

  That whites have a higher average IQ than blacks, and that Asians of the Pacific rim have a higher IQ than whites is a well established fact in psychometrics and well accepted among psychometricians. Matt C is correct about his statements. Unless you know more than Harvard professors, Charles Murrey and Richard Hernstein, who dedicated their lives to studying this topic, or Arthur Jensen, the World's leading expert on intelligence research, then you should really refrain from stating your opinion.

[NarcissisticDeity]

Not really.  I'm waking up a lot of people to this egalitarian fraud actually.  You'd be amazed how many PMs I get from people agreeing with me - proof that people are afraid to speak the truth on this topic just as they have been brainwashed to be.

If I couldn't back EVERYTHING I'm saying with scientific studies, I wouldn't say it.  The fact is, I can.  That's why the leftists are so scared of me, because they know they can't prove me wrong.

QFT:

http://www.bigdonsboys.com/adorable/images/466379663jfcmvy_fs.jpg

That shirt rocks !

[Matt C]

1) IQ tests are culturally based.  if you have a different culture, you'll score lower
2) there is no such thing as the black race.  there are people of African descent, but blacks in the US are a mix of African and European.   there is no one characteristic that makes you black.  there are fair skinned blacks, and dark skinned non-blacks.   same with eyes, nose, lips, hair, etc.  There is no characteristic that all blacks have.
3) there are many blacks and many africans with advanced degrees.  there are many non-blacks dumber than dirt.
4) that the bell curve of one group of people is different than another group says nothing about genes.  It may say something about class, our education system, our health care system, and bigotry.

Put your money where your mouth is.

Would you be willing to bet that we can study 10,000 blacks and 10,000 whites randomly selected from ANYWHERE in the world, whether it be their homelands or elsewhere, and I will bet you that whites score an average of one standard deviation higher than blacks.

In my experience with debate, I have found by now that those opposing my perspective have only a narrow range of stock answers to use.

I'll go through the quotes in bullet point fashion, then present great links where you will find articles from scientists of the calibre of Dawkins to support my points.

CLAIM: "IQ tests are biased towards whites."

REALITY: IQ tests are constructed in such a way as to control for bias, those that are ignorant of psychometric measuring tools are of course also ignorant to such facts. If IQ tests were simply failed by blacks due to bias, then the environment camp should have no problem presenting a biased test where blacks perform better than anyone else. It's never happened, and it's certainly never happened as far as unbiased tests go.

Of course it is a moot point, IQ tests are controlled for such culture bias. They test for everything from spatial ability to reaction times, not "Who was the seventh US President?"

[IFBBwannaB]

CLAIM:
I'm not consulting with a dictionary before I post on here.  This is how I speak in real life too.  It's called having a rich vocabulary and knowing how to articulate myself.  Don't confuse me with TA, whose posts obviously reek of trying too hard.  This is just how I always write and speak, I'm not trying to sound smarter.

LOL, did you forgot that we have seen you post before? You're lying through your teeth.
My point still stands, you act too hard and trying to form some new online persona for you.

Although English isn't the only language I speak I can still put you to shame and make you run to Google for help, but some of us arent full of nothing but hot air like you.

[timfogarty]

CLAIM: "All races are the same intellectually."

claim:  race is an arbitrary category.   if you're 1/32 african, then you're black, especially if that 1/32 shows up in your face

claim:  what may or may not be true for a group of people has no bearing on individuals.   the average of a characteristic in some arbitrary group says nothing about the characteristic of an individual of that group.   

Did you know there was a time where Italians dominated pro baseball?  And another time where it was the Jews.  Another time it was the Irish.  Another time people from the Caribbean.    and those times correlate well with economics and immigration patterns of those ethnic groups.   See, when an ethnic group arrives in America, they first struggle just to get food on the table.   The kids have no time to be out playing ball.  In a generation or two, they're doing a little better and the kids can spend hours playing ball and some become good enough to make a profession out of it.  A generation or two later, they're doing even better and the parents discourage them from wasting time playing ball, but instead practice the piano or study for college.

but yes, in world class athletes, in the best of the best, genes do matter.  there is only a dozen people in the world who have run 100 m under 10 seconds.  that they're all of west african descent doesn't mean that all africans are better runners than europeans.  there are plenty of europeans that are world class runners.  one day one of them will break the 10 s mark.   and what's happening with the elite athletes says nothing about the rest of the population.

to say that it is likely that the best west african runners of today will beat the best european runners of today is not racist.  To say that all people or even the average person of west african descent are better runners than those of european descent is racist.

any time you say "all ____ are ____" you are being bigoted.