Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: Chick on June 05, 2009, 07:11:55 AM
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Open response to Millard Baker:
I don't know who you are, but I know you HAVe nothing to do with the NPC or the IFBB in any capacity (official or otherwise). With that said, there have been no statements made from any official source on the issue at hand concerning Lee Thompson. The Ifbb has been in existence since the 1940's and the NPC since the early 80's. Somehow and by some miracle... We have managed without your infinite wisdom and expertise all these years. We have your contact information if the need for your input should suddenly be warranted. Sincerely.
Bob Cicherillo. IFBBpro, IFBB Athletes Representative
An Open Letter to the International Federation of BodyBuilders Pro Division (IFBB), and the National Physique Committee (NPC), on the Recent Federal Indictment of NPC Texas Chairperson Lee Thompson on Steroid Conspiracy Charges
Dear Jim Manion, Scott Lyons, Brad Craig, Miles Nuessle, Chad Nicholls, Jon Lindsay, Steve O'Brien, Jeff Taylor, Darrin Montanari, Jerry Montanari, Todd Howe, Pete Fancher, Peter Potter, Patrick Sporer, Tyrone Felder, Cindy Lee, Greg Wright, Chuck Sanow, Ed Sanders, Ernest Bea, Sandy Riedinger, Luke Tesvich, Dave Follansbee, Rich Siegelman, Will Dabish, Christine Bongiovanni, Don Hollis, Rick Kasten, Steve Karr, John Kemper, Clark Sanchez, James Rockell, Steve Weinberger, Mike Valentino, Rick Bayardi, Eileen Luis, Ron Smith, Gary Udit, Maggie Blanchard, Tres Bennett, Roger McConnell, Lee Thompson, Steve Schmall, Marvin Chappell, Al Modrzejewski:
The Anabolic Steroid Control Act of 1990 criminalized the non-medical use of anabolic steroids (AAS) for the purpose of improving muscle strength, body composition and physical appearance. Bodybuilders who use anabolic steroids for physique enhancement have since faced the possibility of arrest and prosecution if caught in possession of steroids even for merely personal use. This has had disastrous effects on gainfully-employed, otherwise law-abiding individuals who have been arrested and prosecuted under federal steroid laws. The stigma and loss of reputation associated with federal drug charges persist even when charges are dismissed or downgraded.
The use of anabolic steroids in competitive bodybuilding is, by all accounts, widespread and pervasive. Not surprisingly, numerous individuals associated with the network of competitive bodybuilding, including IFBB/NPC competitors, have been entered into the criminal justice system due to their alleged involvement with AAS. The IFBB/NPC has been conspicuously silent on the increasing number of bodybuilders, personal trainers, and gym owners specifically targeted by overzealous prosecutors.
The recent arrest and indictment of NPC Texas Chairperson Lee Thompson on federal anabolic steroid conspiracy charges presented an opportunity for the IFBB/NPC to publicly criticize existing steroid laws and the application of those laws in a modern-day witch-hunt. Regrettably, IFBB/NPC official(s) instead may have attempted to cover up and suppress the information. When the attempted deception was embarrassingly exposed, matters were made worse when the public disclosure of the truth was maligned. The IFBB/NPC failed to recognize that the real enemy is NOT the disclosure of the truth BUT the flawed anabolic steroid law enforcement policy that unfairly affects those involved.
The IFBB/NPC leadership has gone to great lengths to maintain the illusion that anabolic steroids are not an issue in competitive bodybuilding. Discussion of the existence of AAS in the IFBB/NPC is strictly prohibited. Any connection between competitors’ steroid-related legal problems and IFBB/NPC sanctioned contests is not permitted. The IFBB/NPC has even revoked press credentials for writer(s) who have violated these unwritten rules.
It is time for the IFBB/NPC to embrace honesty and confront the reality of steroid use in the IFBB/NPC. The IFBB/NPC should openly address the steroid witch-hunt that has affected many IFBB/NPC competitors (and at least one top IFBB/NPC official). The IFBB/NPC needs to speak out against the mainstream steroid hysteria and the war on steroids that have demonized and criminalized the use of AAS for bodybuilding and physique enhancement.
Hopefully, the IFBB/NPC will act, not only to protect its own, but to also protect the legal and physical well-being of the hundreds of athletes who participate in IFBB/NPC sanctioned contests. Such an agenda would include steroid law reform and steroid harm reduction. Competent and forward-thinking leadership is required to transform the perception of the IFBB/NPC from an organization that hypocritically and distrustfully addresses the AAS issue to one that candidly and credibly addresses AAS use.
Respectfully yours,
Millard Baker
Founder, MESO-Rx
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chick
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Typical Goatboy...another day, another 40+ posts on Getbig
Posts: 20352 (14.568 per day)
::) ::)
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Posts: 20352 (14.568 per day)
::) ::)
Yep...except thats an average
I just congratulated him on his 20,000th post just 1 1/2 weeks ago, he now has 352 more...wait a minute..my bad...i think it's only 37 posts a day
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Yep...except thats an average
I just congratulated him on his 20,000th post just 1 1/2 weeks ago, he now has 352 more...wait a minute..my bad...i think it's only 37 posts a day
so a "normal" day isn't an average day? because you said normal day and meant he posts 40 on a normal day no?
::) ::)
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Open response to Millard Baker:
I don't know who you are, but I know you HAVe nothing to do with the NPC or the IFBB in any capacity (official or otherwise). With that said, there have been no statements made from any official source on the issue at hand concerning Lee Thompson. The Ifbb has been in existence since the 1940's and the NPC since the early 80's. Somehow and by some miracle... We have managed without your infinite wisdom and expertise all these years. We have your contact information if the need for your input should suddenly be warranted. Sincerely.
Bob Cicherillo. IFBBpro, IFBB Athletes Representative
An Open Letter to the International Federation of BodyBuilders Pro Division (IFBB), and the National Physique Committee (NPC), on the Recent Federal Indictment of NPC Texas Chairperson Lee Thompson on Steroid Conspiracy Charges
Dear Jim Manion, Scott Lyons, Brad Craig, Miles Nuessle, Chad Nicholls, Jon Lindsay, Steve O'Brien, Jeff Taylor, Darrin Montanari, Jerry Montanari, Todd Howe, Pete Fancher, Peter Potter, Patrick Sporer, Tyrone Felder, Cindy Lee, Greg Wright, Chuck Sanow, Ed Sanders, Ernest Bea, Sandy Riedinger, Luke Tesvich, Dave Follansbee, Rich Siegelman, Will Dabish, Christine Bongiovanni, Don Hollis, Rick Kasten, Steve Karr, John Kemper, Clark Sanchez, James Rockell, Steve Weinberger, Mike Valentino, Rick Bayardi, Eileen Luis, Ron Smith, Gary Udit, Maggie Blanchard, Tres Bennett, Roger McConnell, Lee Thompson, Steve Schmall, Marvin Chappell, Al Modrzejewski:
The Anabolic Steroid Control Act of 1990 criminalized the non-medical use of anabolic steroids (AAS) for the purpose of improving muscle strength, body composition and physical appearance. Bodybuilders who use anabolic steroids for physique enhancement have since faced the possibility of arrest and prosecution if caught in possession of steroids even for merely personal use. This has had disastrous effects on gainfully-employed, otherwise law-abiding individuals who have been arrested and prosecuted under federal steroid laws. The stigma and loss of reputation associated with federal drug charges persist even when charges are dismissed or downgraded.
The use of anabolic steroids in competitive bodybuilding is, by all accounts, widespread and pervasive. Not surprisingly, numerous individuals associated with the network of competitive bodybuilding, including IFBB/NPC competitors, have been entered into the criminal justice system due to their alleged involvement with AAS. The IFBB/NPC has been conspicuously silent on the increasing number of bodybuilders, personal trainers, and gym owners specifically targeted by overzealous prosecutors.
The recent arrest and indictment of NPC Texas Chairperson Lee Thompson on federal anabolic steroid conspiracy charges presented an opportunity for the IFBB/NPC to publicly criticize existing steroid laws and the application of those laws in a modern-day witch-hunt. Regrettably, IFBB/NPC official(s) instead may have attempted to cover up and suppress the information. When the attempted deception was embarrassingly exposed, matters were made worse when the public disclosure of the truth was maligned. The IFBB/NPC failed to recognize that the real enemy is NOT the disclosure of the truth BUT the flawed anabolic steroid law enforcement policy that unfairly affects those involved.
The IFBB/NPC leadership has gone to great lengths to maintain the illusion that anabolic steroids are not an issue in competitive bodybuilding. Discussion of the existence of AAS in the IFBB/NPC is strictly prohibited. Any connection between competitors’ steroid-related legal problems and IFBB/NPC sanctioned contests is not permitted. The IFBB/NPC has even revoked press credentials for writer(s) who have violated these unwritten rules.
It is time for the IFBB/NPC to embrace honesty and confront the reality of steroid use in the IFBB/NPC. The IFBB/NPC should openly address the steroid witch-hunt that has affected many IFBB/NPC competitors (and at least one top IFBB/NPC official). The IFBB/NPC needs to speak out against the mainstream steroid hysteria and the war on steroids that have demonized and criminalized the use of AAS for bodybuilding and physique enhancement.
Hopefully, the IFBB/NPC will act, not only to protect its own, but to also protect the legal and physical well-being of the hundreds of athletes who participate in IFBB/NPC sanctioned contests. Such an agenda would include steroid law reform and steroid harm reduction. Competent and forward-thinking leadership is required to transform the perception of the IFBB/NPC from an organization that hypocritically and distrustfully addresses the AAS issue to one that candidly and credibly addresses AAS use.
Respectfully yours,
Millard Baker
Founder, MESO-Rx
Epic use of google to look for facts. I bet that letter took you 3 hours to write.
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Millard Baker writes very factual and well referenced articles, not sure what the point of bob's thread is here? ???
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so a "normal" day isn't an average day? because you said normal day and meant he posts 40 on a normal day no?
::) ::)
I made no mention of normal...read it again
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I am tired of all this.
All the pros and amas are on drugs illigaly and all the people know this truth.
End of thread.
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illigaly".... whats this mean? ???
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Bob,
Why not take the high road?
Strive to be the bigger man in a situation like this.
Sure, it's a tall order, but with your credentials I'd say you easily measure up to the challenge
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"illigaly".... whats this mean? ???
None of doctors write presription for the purpose of bbing.
Since steroids or gh are for the sick people right?
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Millard Baker (whoever he is) makes some very good points, Bob. Why do you dismiss him ad hominem without addressing the argument he is making?
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Bob--it's not often that we agree on something. However, you did the right thing in your letter to the NPC/IFBB. Well done.
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I think Mr Millard would do better to spend his time petitioning his government to stop spending his taxes on the wasteful pursuit of steroid users.
They could make a much larger impact on the health and well being of their citizens if they outlawed tobacco.
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Bob--it's not often that we agree on something. However, you did the right thing in your letter to the NPC/IFBB. Well done.
You do realize that BOB did NOT write that letter.
He's attacking ME for writing the letter.
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I think Mr Millard would do better to spend his time petitioning his government to stop spending his taxes on the wasteful pursuit of steroid users.
They could make a much larger impact on the health and well being of their citizens if they outlawed tobacco.
Which leads me to one of the main points of the letter...
It would make a bigger difference if IFBB/NPC took a stand against the ridiculous/unfair steroid laws.
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Which leads me to one of the main points of the letter...
It would make a bigger difference if IFBB/NPC took a stand against the ridiculous/unfair steroid laws.
Dear Millard Baker,
Bob will meet you at the Mirage Hotel in Las Vegas (by the ice machine) to "straighten out" any differences you two might have.
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Bob,
Your loyalty to Lee is admirable.
I think if the letter involved anyone else, you likely would have responded more rationally and addressed the points I raised.
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Which leads me to one of the main points of the letter...
It would make a bigger difference if IFBB/NPC took a stand against the ridiculous/unfair steroid laws.
The IFBB/NPC should do exactly what the NFL and all the other sporting bodies around the world do. Concentrate on running events and let the governments enforce their laws.
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The IFBB/NPC should do exactly what the NFL and all the other sporting bodies around the world do. Concentrate on running events and let the governments enforce their laws.
The problem is that governments create/enforce laws that interfere with private sporting bodies.
The NFL, MLB, etc. has allowed WADA-driven government initiatives to determine how they run their business(es).
I think private sporting bodies should take a stand against government interference.
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The IFBB/NPC should do exactly what the NFL and all the other sporting bodies around the world do. Concentrate on running events and let the governments enforce their laws.
Wrong !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
From the IFBB Pro Rules:
Rule 6 – Medical
6.1 General:
The Pro League advocates a clean, healthy and fit lifestyle, with regular exercise
and proper nutrition. The Pro League encourages its members to engage in
health-promoting activities and not to engage in practices which may endanger
6.3 Medical Committee:
The Medical Committee has authority over medical issues, to include drug
testing matters. The committee will assist its Members with any questions they
may have regarding issues of a medical or drug testing nature. The Pro League
regularly provides relevant information on health, nutrition, training and doping
control.
Rule 8 – Drug Testing
8.1 Policy Statement:
Sport involves physical health and fitness, mental application and dedication to
training. Doping – the use of prohibited substances and/or prohibited methods –
to artificially enhance performance is unethical, contrary to the concept of fair
play, undermines the values of sport, and can endanger the health of the athletes.
8.2 Power and Authority:
As a condition of membership and competition in the Pro League, all Athletes
agree that the Pro League has power and authority to conduct in-competition
and/or out-of-competition drug testing.
their health.
Rule 9 – Discipline
9.1 General:
Athletes, Judges, and Officials join the Pro League of their own free will and, in
so doing, agree to abide by the Pro Rules.
9.10 Code of Ethics:
Disciplinary action may be taken against any Member who contravenes the Code
of Ethics, which forms an integral part of the Pro Rules.
CODE OF ETHICS
Athletes:
1. To fulfill our responsibility to society, to other Athletes, Judges and
Officials of the Pro League.
7. To work for the Pro League, not against it, in promoting its values, morals
and ethics.
15. To oppose the use of banned substances and methods
Officials:
3. To safeguard the health and physical fitness of the Athletes
9. To work for the Pro League, not against it, in promoting its values, morals
and ethics.
15. To oppose the use of banned substances and methods.
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The problem is that governments create/enforce laws that interfere with private sporting bodies.
The NFL, MLB, etc. has allowed WADA-driven government initiatives to determine how they run their business(es).
I think private sporting bodies should take a stand against government interference.
WADA - what
But confronting the government would only focus attention on themselves.
Lets let the politicians think their policy is working while everyone with half a brain knows that every single competitive sportsman uses some for of "supplement".
Perhaps Nike should step forward and campaign for a change in the law. They have a lot of sponsorship money tied up in "clean" athletes :-)
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Bob,
Your loyalty to Lee is admirable.
I think if the letter involved anyone else, you likely would have responded more rationally and addressed the points I raised.
Not likely...although Lee is a close friend, it has much to do with people like you putting in their 2 cents when it was never asked for in the first place. Perhaps you should tell Jim Manion personally, what he needs to do next time you see him...i'm sure you'll be welcomed with open arms.
While you're at it...why dont you bestow your ideas to GM, or the Banking institutions? I'm sure Obama could use your expertisein the middle East
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But confronting the government would only focus attention on themselves.
Lets let the politicians think their policy is working while everyone with half a brain knows that every single competitive sportsman uses some for of "supplement".
True. But the indictment of NPC chair is quite a bit of attention already not mention other recent arrests... I'm worried that the attention is already squarely upon them
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Not likely...although Lee is a close friend, it has much to do with people like you putting in their 2 cents when it was never asked for in the first place. Perhaps you should tell Jim Manion personally, what he needs to do next time you see him...i'm sure you'll be welcomed with open arms.
While you're at it...why dont you bestow your ideas to GM, or the Banking institutions? I'm sure Obama could use your expertisein the middle East
You may not be aware that people exist outside of your delusional ego-driven world. And just because you "don't know who I am" and are unwilling or incapable of intelligently acknowledging/discussing relevant issues with "people like me" doesn't lessen the validity of the issues at hand.
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You were quite strong in your opninions regarding the enforcement of the IFBB Pro Rules concerning the "mr olympia invitation" of Mr Ed van Amsterdam.
Do you feel equally strong about these rules Bob ?
From the IFBB Pro Rules:
Rule 6 – Medical
6.1 General:
The Pro League advocates a clean, healthy and fit lifestyle, with regular exercise
and proper nutrition. The Pro League encourages its members to engage in
health-promoting activities and not to engage in practices which may endanger
6.3 Medical Committee:
The Medical Committee has authority over medical issues, to include drug
testing matters. The committee will assist its Members with any questions they
may have regarding issues of a medical or drug testing nature. The Pro League
regularly provides relevant information on health, nutrition, training and doping
control.
Rule 8 – Drug Testing
8.1 Policy Statement:
Sport involves physical health and fitness, mental application and dedication to
training. Doping – the use of prohibited substances and/or prohibited methods –
to artificially enhance performance is unethical, contrary to the concept of fair
play, undermines the values of sport, and can endanger the health of the athletes.
8.2 Power and Authority:
As a condition of membership and competition in the Pro League, all Athletes
agree that the Pro League has power and authority to conduct in-competition
and/or out-of-competition drug testing.
their health.
Rule 9 – Discipline
9.1 General:
Athletes, Judges, and Officials join the Pro League of their own free will and, in
so doing, agree to abide by the Pro Rules.
9.10 Code of Ethics:
Disciplinary action may be taken against any Member who contravenes the Code
of Ethics, which forms an integral part of the Pro Rules.
CODE OF ETHICS
Athletes:
1. To fulfill our responsibility to society, to other Athletes, Judges and
Officials of the Pro League.
7. To work for the Pro League, not against it, in promoting its values, morals
and ethics.
15. To oppose the use of banned substances and methods
Officials:
3. To safeguard the health and physical fitness of the Athletes
9. To work for the Pro League, not against it, in promoting its values, morals
and ethics.
15. To oppose the use of banned substances and methods.
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You may not be aware that people exist outside of your delusional ego-driven world. And just because you "don't know who I am" and are unwilling or incapable of intelligently acknowledging/discussing relevant issues with "people like me" doesn't lessen the validity of the issues at hand.
The relevant issue, is that you have no standing. You are not an official of the IFBB/ NPC, you're not a part of the Pro League, you're not even an athlete within the organization, and no one has asked for YOUR input as to how we should address issues that pertain to the IFBB/ NPC.
If you dont like the laws, then take your case to your Senator/ congressman...
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The relevant issue, is that you have no standing. You are not an official of the IFBB/ NPC, you're not a part of the Pro League, you're not even an athlete within the organization, and no one has asked for YOUR input as to how we should address issues that pertain to the IFBB/ NPC.
If you dont like the laws, then take your case to your Senator/ congressman...
Do YOU like the laws, Bob? :P
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The Pro League is free to enforce any rule listed in the official rulebook...
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The Pro League is free to enforce any rule listed in the official rulebook...
Please answer the question Bob.
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7. To work for the Pro League, not against it, in promoting its values, morals
and ethics.
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Open response to Millard Baker:
I don't know who you are, but I know you HAVe nothing to do with the NPC or the IFBB in any capacity (official or otherwise). With that said, there have been no statements made from any official source on the issue at hand concerning Lee Thompson. The Ifbb has been in existence since the 1940's and the NPC since the early 80's. Somehow and by some miracle... We have managed without your infinite wisdom and expertise all these years. We have your contact information if the need for your input should suddenly be warranted. Sincerely.
Bob Cicherillo. IFBBpro, IFBB Athletes Representative
Typical Bob... instead of addressing the issues, he attacks the messenger. ::)
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Please answer the question Bob.
The answer is NO...I don't give equal value to all the rules, especially when t comes to qualifications.
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The answer is NO...I don't give equal value to all the rules, especially when t comes to qualifications.
But Bob... Ed getting invited to the Olympia is NOT against the rules. In fact, it is expressly provided for in the rules, and has precedent.
The use of AAS and other performance-enhancing drugs, however, is clearly against the rules.
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An Open Letter to the International Federation of BodyBuilders Pro Division (IFBB), and the National Physique Committee (NPC), on the Recent Federal Indictment of NPC Texas Chairperson Lee Thompson on Steroid Conspiracy Charges
Dear Jim Manion, Scott Lyons, Brad Craig, Miles Nuessle, Chad Nicholls, Jon Lindsay, Steve O'Brien, Jeff Taylor, Darrin Montanari, Jerry Montanari, Todd Howe, Pete Fancher, Peter Potter, Patrick Sporer, Tyrone Felder, Cindy Lee, Greg Wright, Chuck Sanow, Ed Sanders, Ernest Bea, Sandy Riedinger, Luke Tesvich, Dave Follansbee, Rich Siegelman, Will Dabish, Christine Bongiovanni, Don Hollis, Rick Kasten, Steve Karr, John Kemper, Clark Sanchez, James Rockell, Steve Weinberger, Mike Valentino, Rick Bayardi, Eileen Luis, Ron Smith, Gary Udit, Maggie Blanchard, Tres Bennett, Roger McConnell, Lee Thompson, Steve Schmall, Marvin Chappell, Al Modrzejewski:
The Anabolic Steroid Control Act of 1990 criminalized the non-medical use of anabolic steroids (AAS) for the purpose of improving muscle strength, body composition and physical appearance. Bodybuilders who use anabolic steroids for physique enhancement have since faced the possibility of arrest and prosecution if caught in possession of steroids even for merely personal use. This has had disastrous effects on gainfully-employed, otherwise law-abiding individuals who have been arrested and prosecuted under federal steroid laws. The stigma and loss of reputation associated with federal drug charges persist even when charges are dismissed or downgraded.
The use of anabolic steroids in competitive bodybuilding is, by all accounts, widespread and pervasive. Not surprisingly, numerous individuals associated with the network of competitive bodybuilding, including IFBB/NPC competitors, have been entered into the criminal justice system due to their alleged involvement with AAS. The IFBB/NPC has been conspicuously silent on the increasing number of bodybuilders, personal trainers, and gym owners specifically targeted by overzealous prosecutors.
The recent arrest and indictment of NPC Texas Chairperson Lee Thompson on federal anabolic steroid conspiracy charges presented an opportunity for the IFBB/NPC to publicly criticize existing steroid laws and the application of those laws in a modern-day witch-hunt. Regrettably, IFBB/NPC official(s) instead may have attempted to cover up and suppress the information. When the attempted deception was embarrassingly exposed, matters were made worse when the public disclosure of the truth was maligned. The IFBB/NPC failed to recognize that the real enemy is NOT the disclosure of the truth BUT the flawed anabolic steroid law enforcement policy that unfairly affects those involved.
The IFBB/NPC leadership has gone to great lengths to maintain the illusion that anabolic steroids are not an issue in competitive bodybuilding. Discussion of the existence of AAS in the IFBB/NPC is strictly prohibited. Any connection between competitors’ steroid-related legal problems and IFBB/NPC sanctioned contests is not permitted. The IFBB/NPC has even revoked press credentials for writer(s) who have violated these unwritten rules.
It is time for the IFBB/NPC to embrace honesty and confront the reality of steroid use in the IFBB/NPC. The IFBB/NPC should openly address the steroid witch-hunt that has affected many IFBB/NPC competitors (and at least one top IFBB/NPC official). The IFBB/NPC needs to speak out against the mainstream steroid hysteria and the war on steroids that have demonized and criminalized the use of AAS for bodybuilding and physique enhancement.
Hopefully, the IFBB/NPC will act, not only to protect its own, but to also protect the legal and physical well-being of the hundreds of athletes who participate in IFBB/NPC sanctioned contests. Such an agenda would include steroid law reform and steroid harm reduction. Competent and forward-thinking leadership is required to transform the perception of the IFBB/NPC from an organization that hypocritically and distrustfully addresses the AAS issue to one that candidly and credibly addresses AAS use.
Respectfully yours,
Millard Baker
Founder, MESO-Rx
Well said, but you are assuming that the IFBB gives a shit about anything more than profit. Unless you compel them to support your cause in some way, such as through the unionization of athletes, judges, etc, the IFBB won't spend a dime trying to fight legislation or lend real support to members facing prosecution.
A well reasoned argument won't cut it. You're going to have to make them do it.
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it's getting ugly up in here
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it's getting ugly up in here
deleted. ;D
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it's getting ugly up in here
Please don't think I'm saying the IFBB is doing something bad. All businesses first priority is profit. Ensuring the continuation of that profitability, however, sometimes requires change.
In a way, the IFBB should be grateful to Millard Baker for pointing out a situation which is only going to get worse and which threatens to erode the authority which it has over its members. Now it can address the issue in some way while it still retains the power of decision.
A more ambitious man than Mr. Baker might have attempted to quietly obtain a concensus of opinion among IFBB members on this issue before going public, thereby sweeping the rug entirely out from under IFBB management and cementing his own position as union head, but he seems like a more reasonable guy than that.
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Not likely...although Lee is a close friend, it has much to do with people like you putting in their 2 cents when it was never asked for in the first place. Perhaps you should tell Jim Manion personally, what he needs to do next time you see him...i'm sure you'll be welcomed with open arms.
While you're at it...why dont you bestow your ideas to GM, or the Banking institutions? I'm sure Obama could use your expertisein the middle East
it's called journalism Bob, people can write about whatever they want, get over it.
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The relevant issue, is that you have no standing. You are not an official of the IFBB/ NPC, you're not a part of the Pro League, you're not even an athlete within the organization, and no one has asked for YOUR input as to how we should address issues that pertain to the IFBB/ NPC.
Bob, thank you very much for your concise explanation of how the IFBB/NPC operates.
This is exactly what is wrong with the IFBB/NPC.
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Bob, thank you very much for your concise explanation of how the IFBB/NPC operates.
This is exactly what is wrong with the IFBB/NPC.
Bob is just a puppet Millard, designed by the higher ups to answer any question directed at him with another question or a personal attack.
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it's called journalism Bob, people can write about whatever they want, get over it.
I suppose Bob would feel the same way if a reporter offered an opinion on some NFL or MLB policy too, huh?
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It's refreshing to note that at least some NPC/IFBB officials, unlike Bob C., are willing to intelligently discuss the issues in my letter.
Lee Thompson called me this morning to thank me for the letter. He told me he "got my message" outlined in the open letter and assured me that he was going to vocally speak out against the unfairness of steroid witch-hunt that has affected him when the time is right.
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Bob, thank you very much for your concise explanation of how the IFBB/NPC operates.
This is exactly what is wrong with the IFBB/NPC.
bottom line without gear there would be no ifbb/ npc no one would attened shows.
The rule book is nothing more than white wash pros do g4p drugs and not just gear.And its out in the open if the so called committee suspended pros for whats in the rule book Then Mr getbig would be the only show in town..
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It's refreshing to note that at least some NPC/IFBB officials, unlike Bob C., are willing to intelligently discuss the issues in my letter.
You picked the wrong guy when you expected to see a combination of those two.
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Well said, but you are assuming that the IFBB gives a shit about anything more than profit. Unless you compel them to support your cause in some way, such as through the unionization of athletes, judges, etc, the IFBB won't spend a dime trying to fight legislation or lend real support to members facing prosecution.
A well reasoned argument won't cut it. You're going to have to make them do it.
Very true. The lack of an athletes' union makes this unlikely.
Obviously, the IFBB athlete's rep is anything but that. The owners in the NFL or MLB would be so lucky to have such a self-serving arrangement.
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Very true. The lack of an athletes' union makes this unlikely.
Obviously, the IFBB athlete's rep is anything but that. The owners in the NFL or MLB would be so lucky to have such a self-serving arrangement.
There's no law against the athletes forming a union and electing their own union head. Bob could remain as athlete's rep in his present capacity. Everybody wins.
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There's no law against the athletes forming a union and electing their own union head. Bob could remain as athlete's rep in his present capacity. Everybody wins.
trust me they will find one in there little ifbb rule book to squash that fast,they dont want theses guys haveing minds of there own...go ahead and do g4p go ahead and burn a woman in a trunk do drugs but dont start a union takes away there control..
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The relevant issue, is that you have no standing. You are not an official of the IFBB/ NPC, you're not a part of the Pro League, you're not even an athlete within the organization, and no one has asked for YOUR input as to how we should address issues that pertain to the IFBB/ NPC.
what an amazing reply. The NPC: we report to no one.
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trust me they will find one in there little ifbb rule book to squash that fast,they dont want theses guys haveing minds of there own...go ahead and do g4p go ahead and burn a woman in a trunk do drugs but dont start a union takes away there control..
1978 Kal S and others tried for union
Even Arnold endorsed it
no go
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what an amazing reply. The NPC: we report to no one.
one must consider that tax dollars are used to build pro sports stadiums
thus
the people should have some kind of voice in the running of these sports
why not the IFBB?
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trust me they will find one in there little ifbb rule book to squash that fast,they dont want theses guys haveing minds of there own...go ahead and do g4p go ahead and burn a woman in a trunk do drugs but dont start a union takes away there control..
Surely not. Wouldn't that be against state or federal laws?
1978 Kal S and others tried for union
Even Arnold endorsed it
no go
Participants weren't getting arrested left and right back then. You might have more luck now.
You're probably never going to get the law changed, but an organization which retained a lawyer would be attractive. Also, a lot of bodybuilders have endocrine problems from past steroid abuse, so an HRT doctor who could prescribe the appropriate remedy would be a nice thing for athletes too. The question is which organization will put together an attractive package first: the IFBB or an athletes union.
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1978 Kal S and others tried for union
Even Arnold endorsed it
no go
Chick what about a union? It always gets shot down.
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Millard-
did you right the exact letter to every single sports organization in the world? you think steroid use is isolated to bodybuilding?
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Millard-
did you right the exact letter to every single sports organization in the world? you think steroid use is isolated to bodybuilding?
exactly
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Millard-
did you right the exact letter to every single sports organization in the world? you think steroid use is isolated to bodybuilding?
should a fan of baseball write to the NFL? I don't understand the outrage at what Millard wrote. Sure no organization likes to have their dirty laundry exposed, but when it is, attacking the messenger usually only gives the writer more publicity, extending the crisis.
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True. But the indictment of NPC chair is quite a bit of attention already not mention other recent arrests... I'm worried that the attention is already squarely upon them
An indictment is more or less an accusation and Lee definitely should not be treated guilty by association.
That would be like arresting a bank robber and then arresting his mother because he lived at home with her.
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Chick most of us here, (even though a lot of us wont admit it), have a passion for bodybuilding, otherwise we wouldn't have wound up here in the first place. This also means that we condone anabolic steroids for the purpose of improving body composition, and lastly this means that we are well aware of the legal implications. In other words we all accept that part of the trifecta for serious bodybuilding is training, nutrition, and drugs.
It doesn't take a great amount of deductive reasoning skills to ascertain that to be a serious/competitive bodybuilder, one must be willing to break the law in the process. This is obvious to everyone, and with the exception of a few, no one hear judges anyone for that choice, and none of us really care one way or another.
However must of us do like like to be pissed on and told its rain. You constantly feed us bullshit, and go to incredible lengths to come up with the most contrived explanations, in an attempt to justify the hypocritical, (and transparent), stance of the IFBB, NPC, and many of the central figures therein.
If you would just stop acting like this is a real sports organization, that has something to lose, and treat it like the SUB-CULTURE that it is, then you would be coming off much better, and respectably.
I don't think you are a bad guy, and your passion for bodybuilding is obvious. However bodybuilding will never change unless those with some juice at the higher end of the spectrum are willing to start calling bullshit on problems that have been plaguing it since the beginning. This could be you, it could be someone like Jay Cutler, (which will never happen), or someone else, but to see you simply be content with towing the party line is rather abhorrent.
M!
"He must be very ignorant for he answers every question he is asked"
Voltaire
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Chick most of us here, (even though a lot of us wont admit it), have a passion for bodybuilding, otherwise we wouldn't have wound up here in the first place. This also means that we condone anabolic steroids for the purpose of improving body composition, and lastly this means that we are well aware of the legal implications. In other words we all accept that part of the trifecta for serious bodybuilding is training, nutrition, and drugs.
It doesn't take a great amount of deductive reasoning skills to ascertain that to be a serious/competitive bodybuilder, one must be willing to break the law in the process. This is obvious to everyone, and with the exception of a few, no one hear judges anyone for that choice, and none of us really care one way or another.
However must of us do like like to be pissed on and told its rain. You constantly feed us bullshit, and go to incredible lengths to come up with the most contrived explanations, in an attempt to justify the hypocritical, (and transparent), stance of the IFBB, NPC, and many of the central figures therein.
If you would just stop acting like this is a real sports organization, that has something to lose, and treat it like the SUB-CULTURE that it is, then you would be coming off much better, and respectably.
I don't think you are a bad guy, and your passion for bodybuilding is obvious. However bodybuilding will never change unless those with some juice at the higher end of the spectrum are willing to start calling bullshit on problems that have been plaguing it since the beginning. This could be you, it could be someone like Jay Cutler, (which will never happen), or someone else, but to see you simply be content with towing the party line is rather abhorrent.
M!
"He must be very ignorant for he answers every question he is asked"
Voltaire
Your problem lies in the fact that yoiu believe I'm "feeding you bullshit"...
Just what "change" are you looking for?
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Your problem lies in the fact that yoiu believe I'm "feeding you bullshit"...
Just what "change" are you looking for?
well, lets start with transparency.
for drug tested shows, list exactly who was tested, and what the results were. For something like the IFBB Worlds, if 18 people fail the drug tests, was that 18 out of 18 random tests? For the NPC Team Universe, no one in its history has ever been disqualified for failing the drug test.
Without such transparency, it appears that the IFBB and NPC are only doing the minimum required to be able to tell the public "we're against the use of drugs" while telling the athletes "we know you need to do what you need to do".
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IS THE IFBB A NON-PROFIT ORGANIZATION?
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IS THE IFBB A NON-PROFIT ORGANIZATION?
Not by choice. 8)
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well, lets start with transparency.
for drug tested shows, list exactly who was tested, and what the results were. For something like the IFBB Worlds, if 18 people fail the drug tests, was that 18 out of 18 random tests? For the NPC Team Universe, no one in its history has ever been disqualified for failing the drug test.
I dont deal with IFBB worlds...It's an amateur show.
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I dont deal with IFBB worlds...It's an amateur show.
You don't deal with the NPC amateurs either, but you replied to Millard's letter.
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You don't deal with the NPC amateurs either, but you replied to Millard's letter.
I replied to his letter as it was sent to me...
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should a fan of baseball write to the NFL? I don't understand the outrage at what Millard wrote. Sure no organization likes to have their dirty laundry exposed, but when it is, attacking the messenger usually only gives the writer more publicity, extending the crisis.
Tim,
The outrage was largely limited to a couple of individuals who publicly claimed that Lee Thompson had no involvement in the recent Fort Bend County bust and were embarrassed when I published my article(s) refuting their claims. The response elsewhere has been overwhelming positive.
Several NPC officials, NPC contest promoters and NPC judges have personally thanked me for "my letter defending Lee". Although there has been no "official" response from IFBB/NPC, the letter was well-received by all individuals that have contacted me, without exception, who have strong associations with the IFBB or NPC.
Lee Thompson and Stacey thanked me for my factual, professional and supportive approach to his legal predicament when I saw them at the NPC Lone Star Classic this weekend in Plano where we had a long discussion about his predicament. Lee strongly encouraged me to continue to "do my thing" with my criticism of steroid laws and advocacy for steroid law reform; he told me that once his legal situation is resolved he will become a vocal critic of the steroid witch-hunt.
Several people warned me of the risks of criticizing the IFBB/NPC. But if the primary person involved at the heart of the matter welcomes my support, an official negative response from the IFBB/NPC may not materialize. Those who expressed outrage here on Getbig may have their own reasons for outrage independent of the IFBB/NPC.
The question of the what/how the IFBB/NPC officially response, to what I would call a crisis involving law enforcement/prosecutors targeting steroid-using bodybuilders, remains to be seen.
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Chic, can you ask and see how many years Lee is getting? He got any priors? Huh? HUH??????
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This whole steroid/felony/jail-time/ situation seems to be a miscarrage of justice and a violation of one's basic American rights.
I sure ain't no lawyer and have never been involved with roids since they became illegal, but there is definitely something NOT RIGHT and very wrong about what many athletes and others feel to be an out and out WITCH HUNT.
It's difficult for me to believe that this is actually happening in America - the land of the free, the home of the brave.
But as far as I know, no one has ever been brave enough to stand up and stick their neck not to abolish this modern day WITCH HUNT.
A politician can't do it because it would mean political suicide.
A sports federation can't do it because it would put them in the cross hairs of the Federal government.
I can't do it because I don't have the slightest idea how to "get a law removed from the books".
Maybe some sports federation or a combine of sports federations should clandestinely hire someone like Millard in an attempt to do something about this travesty of justice.
That individual would have to be unassociated with any organization or individual who has something to lose because I am almost certain that the government would come after them with a silver mallet and IRS scrutiny.
I am definitely not a steroid advocate, but I am definitely against the government's ability to ruin someone's life for using steroids.
Something's wrong here and should be fixed.
Got more to say if anyone's interested.
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This whole steroid/felony/jail-time/ situation seems to be a miscarrage of justice and a violation of one's basic American rights.
I sure ain't no lawyer and have never been involved with roids since they became illegal, but there is definitely something NOT RIGHT and very wrong about what many athletes and others feel to be an out and out WITCH HUNT.
It's difficult for me to believe that this is actually happening in America - the land of the free, the home of the brave.
But as far as I know, no one has ever been brave enough to stand up and stick their neck not to abolish this modern day WITCH HUNT.
A politician can't do it because it would mean political suicide.
A sports federation can't do it because it would put them in the cross hairs of the Federal government.
I can't do it because I don't have the slightest idea how to "get a law removed from the books".
Maybe some sports federation or a combine of sports federations should clandestinely hire someone like Millard in an attempt to do something about this travesty of justice.
That individual would have to be unassociated with any organization or individual who has something to lose because I am almost certain that the government would come after them with a silver mallet and IRS scrutiny.
I am definitely not a steroid advocate, but I am definitely against the government's ability to ruin someone's life for using steroids.
Something's wrong here and should be fixed.
Got more to say if anyone's interested.
well thought out Stunt!
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Thanks, Haz!
Here's a bit more of what I feel I gotta say about this situation .......
Back in my day, roids were legal and easily obtainable. Most of the guys (no ladies in competitive bodybuilding then) would go to a doctor and ask for a prescription. In most cases I was involved with, the doctor would simply search the subject in his PDR and write out a subscription and most everyone I knew would adhere to the prescribed dosage.
If I recall right Decca-Durabolin and Anavar and Primobolin were the roids to use back then. There were probably others which I don't recall at present.
The AMA was still claiming that steroids did nothing to enhance muscle mass but we all knew that that was an outright prefabrication because everyone on the "sauce" was making great gains which were most often claimed to be 10% better than those who chose not to use them or simply didn't make the effort to obtain them.
The AMA stand that roids were ineffective was surprising to most of us due to the fact that all of us knew that steroids were used to treat WW2 burn patients at Tripler Hospital in Hawaii and there was no secret about their effectiveness. And many of the top movie stars were making frequent trips to European "spas" to obtain "treatment" which would keep them looking young for future movie roles, and there was no secret about this either.
Still, many doctors thought that they didn't so a damn thing. Eventually one such doctor sought me out and apologized about his previous stand against steroids claiming that medical school taught him how to treat illnesses and not now to prevent illnesses. (He was also anti-suppliments and anti-vitamins as well.)
All of this happened before the stigma that steroids are receiving today.
Then over the years, athletes began to think that "more" would be better but their doctor would be somewhat reluctant to prescribe "more"; so the individuals would find another doctor for an additional prescription without the first doctor's knowledge. So "more" became more easily obtained.
Still ... even with "more" no one seemed to suffer any medical discomfort and some individuals would even get a physical to insure that all was well.
I was never privy to any serious medical problems attributed to roid usage back then.
But the IOC soon became concerned. The "playing field had to remain level" and some of the players were apparently playing with an apparent advantage.
The "playing field" was tilted and had to be readjusted.
And steroid usage as we knew it became illegal which made it very profitable, more desirable, and somewhat more easily obtainable. (How come those who make these laws don't pay attention to history?)
Rick Collins best described this transition in his book "Legal Muscle" which I understand is now out of print.
If I recall it correctly ..... Here is a synopsis how roids usage actually became illegal.
Please feel free to correct me it I'm wrong or if you can add some facts to my memory ...... DOn't take any of this as the gospel truth as I am writing this based on my memory banks.....
When steroids were easily obtainable with or without a doctor's prescription, there was a young Naval Academy athlete who tried out for the football team, but the other guys were bigger and faster and stronger due to their steroid intake and he failed to make the team.
It so happened that his father was a US Congressman or a US Senator and when he heard that his son didn't make the team and that those who did make the tram were competing at an unfair advantage, he decided to do something about it.
And that something that he did do was to make usage a felony (gotta do some actual research on what that law states again, but I think you all get the idea).
And even though the AMA and many others objected, the new law against steroid usage passed and henceforth many people could be processed through the courts and receive a felony conviction.
And the media jumped on it and made it a bigger thing than it actually was. And the public bought it. And it developed into what appears to be mass-hysteria. A modern day witch hunt in the making without the torches and burnings at the stake - but just as destructive and possibly even more so.
And now some say that one can actually be committing a crime simply by thinking or talking about something that the government claims to be illegal!
Something's wrong here!
This ain't justice! This is not the America I once committed my life to defend or am willing to accept peacefully.
But all I've actually done in an effort to stop this injustice is write my Congressman.
But what the hell is he gonna do?
Writer me back and say, "Thanks"!?
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The relevant issue, is that you have no standing. You are not an official of the IFBB/ NPC, you're not a part of the Pro League, you're not even an athlete within the organization, and no one has asked for YOUR input as to how we should address issues that pertain to the IFBB/ NPC.
If you dont like the laws, then take your case to your Senator/ congressman...
Sorry there, Bob. but the guy isn't knocking on the door of a closed IFBB meeting, he's putting his friggin' opinion on the internet. For that he has "standing".
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Sorry there, Bob. but the guy isn't knocking on the door of a closed IFBB meeting, he's putting his friggin' opinion on the internet. For that he has "standing".
Disagree....he wrote specifically to the IFBB/ NPC. Putting a thread here on this forum would be considered an "opinion on the internet"....or making a comment in his own blog, etc....
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Thanks, Haz!
Here's a bit more of what I feel I gotta say about this situation .......
Back in my day, roids were legal and easily obtainable. Most of the guys (no ladies in competitive bodybuilding then) would go to a doctor and ask for a prescription. In most cases I was involved with, the doctor would simply search the subject in his PDR and write out a subscription and most everyone I knew would adhere to the prescribed dosage.
If I recall right Decca-Durabolin and Anavar and Primobolin were the roids to use back then. There were probably others which I don't recall at present.
The AMA was still claiming that steroids did nothing to enhance muscle mass but we all knew that that was an outright prefabrication because everyone on the "sauce" was making great gains which were most often claimed to be 10% better than those who chose not to use them or simply didn't make the effort to obtain them.
The AMA stand that roids were ineffective was surprising to most of us due to the fact that all of us knew that steroids were used to treat WW2 burn patients at Tripler Hospital in Hawaii and there was no secret about their effectiveness. And many of the top movie stars were making frequent trips to European "spas" to obtain "treatment" which would keep them looking young for future movie roles, and there was no secret about this either.
Still, many doctors thought that they didn't so a damn thing. Eventually one such doctor sought me out and apologized about his previous stand against steroids claiming that medical school taught him how to treat illnesses and not now to prevent illnesses. (He was also anti-suppliments and anti-vitamins as well.)
All of this happened before the stigma that steroids are receiving today.
Then over the years, athletes began to think that "more" would be better but their doctor would be somewhat reluctant to prescribe "more"; so the individuals would find another doctor for an additional prescription without the first doctor's knowledge. So "more" became more easily obtained.
Still ... even with "more" no one seemed to suffer any medical discomfort and some individuals would even get a physical to insure that all was well.
I was never privy to any serious medical problems attributed to roid usage back then.
But the IOC soon became concerned. The "playing field had to remain level" and some of the players were apparently playing with an apparent advantage.
The "playing field" was tilted and had to be readjusted.
And steroid usage as we knew it became illegal which made it very profitable, more desirable, and somewhat more easily obtainable. (How come those who make these laws don't pay attention to history?)
Rick Collins best described this transition in his book "Legal Muscle" which I understand is now out of print.
If I recall it correctly ..... Here is a synopsis how roids usage actually became illegal.
Please feel free to correct me it I'm wrong or if you can add some facts to my memory ...... DOn't take any of this as the gospel truth as I am writing this based on my memory banks.....
When steroids were easily obtainable with or without a doctor's prescription, there was a young Naval Academy athlete who tried out for the football team, but the other guys were bigger and faster and stronger due to their steroid intake and he failed to make the team.
It so happened that his father was a US Congressman or a US Senator and when he heard that his son didn't make the team and that those who did make the tram were competing at an unfair advantage, he decided to do something about it.
And that something that he did do was to make usage a felony (gotta do some actual research on what that law states again, but I think you all get the idea).
And even though the AMA and many others objected, the new law against steroid usage passed and henceforth many people could be processed through the courts and receive a felony conviction.
And the media jumped on it and made it a bigger thing than it actually was. And the public bought it. And it developed into what appears to be mass-hysteria. A modern day witch hunt in the making without the torches and burnings at the stake - but just as destructive and possibly even more so.
And now some say that one can actually be committing a crime simply by thinking or talking about something that the government claims to be illegal!
Something's wrong here!
This ain't justice! This is not the America I once committed my life to defend or am willing to accept peacefully.
But all I've actually done in an effort to stop this injustice is write my Congressman.
But what the hell is he gonna do?
Writer me back and say, "Thanks"!?
yeah, it's amazing how much they messed things up. the Deca you mentioned was called the safest, but it has the longest detection time. so when testing came out, people opted for things with faster clearance times. this means more toxic to the organs.
when they made them illigal, it opened the door for fakes and counterfeits. people made way more money and doctors saw 10 times the side effects from dirty drugs than they ever did from pharmaceutical items.
when they publisized guys like Ben Johnson and Lyle Alzado, it drove steroid use into the public eye. and kids everywhere that hadn't heard of steroids and weren't even athletic couldnt' wait to get on them.
they ended up with an epidemic of young non athletes using tons of dirty steroids that often weren't even what was labelled.
good job gov't and media.
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horton, you sound like one of these lying steroid junkies known as "pros"...
everyone knows that drugs use in IFBB >>>>100x NFL
WADA - what
But confronting the government would only focus attention on themselves.
Lets let the politicians think their policy is working while everyone with half a brain knows that every single competitive sportsman uses some for of "supplement".
Perhaps Nike should step forward and campaign for a change in the law. They have a lot of sponsorship money tied up in "clean" athletes :-)
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you are correct, the IFBB ARBITRARILY enforces their so-called rules.
also known as selectively applying the rules.
The Pro League is free to enforce any rule listed in the official rulebook...
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thats funny,
I don't see your name here:
Dear Jim Manion, Scott Lyons, Brad Craig, Miles Nuessle, Chad Nicholls, Jon Lindsay, Steve O'Brien, Jeff Taylor, Darrin Montanari, Jerry Montanari, Todd Howe, Pete Fancher, Peter Potter, Patrick Sporer, Tyrone Felder, Cindy Lee, Greg Wright, Chuck Sanow, Ed Sanders, Ernest Bea, Sandy Riedinger, Luke Tesvich, Dave Follansbee, Rich Siegelman, Will Dabish, Christine Bongiovanni, Don Hollis, Rick Kasten, Steve Karr, John Kemper, Clark Sanchez, James Rockell, Steve Weinberger, Mike Valentino, Rick Bayardi, Eileen Luis, Ron Smith, Gary Udit, Maggie Blanchard, Tres Bennett, Roger McConnell, Lee Thompson, Steve Schmall, Marvin Chappell, Al Modrzejewski:
Maybe the puppet is taking up for the NPC, despite ducking other NPC related questions...
I replied to his letter as it was sent to me...
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Disagree....he wrote specifically to the IFBB/ NPC. Putting a thread here on this forum would be considered an "opinion on the internet"....or making a comment in his own blog, etc....
Fortunately, the IFBB/NPC rules on speech have limited purview and don't have any bearing on practically anyone else in the United States and elsewhere.
My lack of standing aside, I think you've demonstrated that a letter specifically addressed to the IFBB/NPC has a greater impact than simply posting an "opinion on the internet".
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Fortunately, the IFBB/NPC rules on speech have limited purview and don't have any bearing on practically anyone else in the United States and elsewhere.
My lack of standing aside, I think you've demonstrated that a letter specifically addressed to the IFBB/NPC has a greater impact than simply posting an "opinion on the internet".
"WOW"
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we will always have these ridiculous laws on steroids until enough people grow a back bone and stand up for there human rights.
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Fortunately, the IFBB/NPC rules on speech have limited purview and don't have any bearing on practically anyone else in the United States and elsewhere.
My lack of standing aside, I think you've demonstrated that a letter specifically addressed to the IFBB/NPC has a greater impact than simply posting an "opinion on the internet".
Thanks for clarifying exactly what I just said, and why I responded to it.
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Thanks for clarifying exactly what I just said, and why I responded to it.
Are you a supporter of the decriminalization of AS?And if so what are you doing or willing to do to further that cause.
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Are you a supporter of the decriminalization of AS?And if so what are you doing or willing to do to further that cause.
Why would Chick give a Fuck about illegal Drug use he always says NOBODY CARES ABOUT BB and Drug use.Well Chick tell that to the Hundreds a year that get charged by the DEA.hMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM MM.