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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Pet Board => Topic started by: ~flower~ on October 04, 2007, 07:52:32 AM
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Addie had her staples and sutures out this morning. That incision is healing fine and overall she is doing good. Her vet did mention the possibility that she might have lupus. Along with her knee she also has a quarter sized sore on her side, and some smaller ones on her belly and her elbows. At the time of her spay a skin tag was also removed from her neck and she has had an inflammatory reaction to the sutures there also, nothing major, just a lump that he believes will go down. Lupus would explain her complications after her spay, her bodies immune system just went haywire and started attacking the sutures and her blood and skin. The vet does believe that she does have some immune problem, lupus or not, and in the future we may do some tests to see if we can find out what it is but for now we are just concentrating on her body getting back to normal.
Vet, any experience with Lupus and your thoughts? Or anyone else?
Never a dull moment with Addie. ::)
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That sucks Flower! :(
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That sucks Flower! :(
Well, we are not sure if she has Lupus or what is going on, but even if it is Lupus it may only be a problem if she has a surgery or some event sets it off. So, she could go along just fine. Any future surgeries (hopefully will never be another one!!) she will be red flagged as to potential complications.
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That f'g sucks >:(
I have a friend who had an Akita with it. The ultimate outcome was not positive. I could connect you with her and she could fill you in on what she knows now that she didn't know then and what she may have done differently :-[
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I've never diagnosed lupus in a dog. I have assisted in managing two cases (both in shetland sheep dogs) that other veterinarians I worked with had diagnosed. As a matter of fact, I almost have more experience with humans in dealing with lupus than animals--I have two aunts and a cousin with it.
Immune mediated hemolytic anemias are associated with systemic Lupus. if there is a thought of Addie having it, an ANA test should be run. It'll be relatively certian in ruling it in or out.
Below is some FYI information I pulled from VeterinaryPartner. In general terms, Addie doesn't sound like one of these cases.
Systemic Lupus Erythematosus (SLE)
Authored by: Becky Lundgren, DVM
Systemic lupus erythematosus (SLE) is a fairly rare chronic and potentially-fatal autoimmune disease. The dog’s immune system fights itself by forming antibodies that “protect” it against its own cells and tissues. This results in inflammation and tissue damage in the skin, heart, lungs, kidneys, joints, nervous system, or blood. Usually several organs are affected. SLE can be managed, but not cured. While the disease itself is chronic, signs can be acute, chronic, or both. Lifelong treatment is necessary. It is different from discoid lupus erythematosus (DLE), which is a skin disease.
The word lupus is Latin for “wolf.” (Some humans get a facial rash that has a slight similarity with a wolf’s face.)
Breeds that most typically are affected by SLE include Afghan Hounds, Beagles, German Shepherd Dogs, Irish Setters, Old English Sheepdogs, Poodles, Rough Collies, and Shetland Sheepdogs. Dogs are usually middle-aged when they get SLE. Females are not more likely than males to get SLE.
The most common significant signs of SLE are a non-erosive polyarthritis (an arthritis that affects several joints), painful muscles; shifting lameness; skin sores and blisters; proteinuria (protein in the urine); decreased platelet and white blood cell count; fluctuating fevers, and immune mediated hemolytic anemia (IMHA). Some less-significant signs are mouth ulcers, inflamed lining of the chest cavity or heart, dementia, swollen lymph nodes, and seizures. Usually, dogs with SLE are first taken to the veterinarian because of the skin problems or lameness.
Blood tests are needed for diagnosis. While all dogs won’t have the same signs, dogs with SLE typically test positive for anti-nuclear antibodies (ANA). There are so many effects of this multi-systemic disease that it’s hard to rule any one disease in or out. Diagnosis is typically made using a combination of a positive ANA test with at least two of the most common signs. Even then, it can be difficult to make a positive diagnosis, since other problems, such as drug reactions and cancer, can have many of the same signs.
Treatment is aimed at decreasing the inflammation and autoimmune activity, so treatment centers around anti-inflammatory and immunosuppressive medications such as corticosteroids (e.g. prednisone). Sometimes a second immunosuppressant, such as azathioprine, cyclophosphamide, or cyclosporine will be necessary. Specific problems, such as kidney or spleen damage, will also have to be treated. Treatment plans depend on what organs are affected.
The ultraviolet rays in sunlight can cause flare-ups of SLE, so exposure to sunlight should be limited.
Prognosis depends entirely on how each dog is affected, but owners can expect that their pets will require life-long treatment. Unfortunately, sometimes the damage caused by this disease can result in death.
Date Published: 1/21/2007 1:05:00 PM
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I came across that too, but I also found this:
"However, dogs with SLE may not show clinical signs until there is an initiating factor, such as a bacterial or viral infection, a drug reaction, cancer or some event that has a big impact on the immune system.
SLE has a variable prognosis. If there is an initiating factor and it can
be controlled there is a good chance of regaining a state in which the
disease is still present but it isn't causing much problem -- which was the
situation prior to the recent problems, probably. There may be future
relapses but they can often be controlled, too. If there isn't an obvious
underlying cause the prognosis is not as good. In general, it is usually
possible to control the disease for at least some time using
immunosuppressive medications but eventually these usually lead to
complications of their own and so dogs with SLE that must be constantly
medicated tend to have shorter lifespans than dogs without this problem. It
seems possible to keep dogs pretty comfortable during their lifetime in
many cases, however."
Another reference said having had many operations may be a contributor.
What little I do know about Lupus is that (I think) it can flare up and then "disappear" and it can affect many different parts of the body, no two cases are alike.
I may do a test somewhere down the line to see what, if any, immune problem she may have.
I just fear that she does and it was dormant and the spay has now awakened it. :-\
That f'g sucks >:(
I have a friend who had an Akita with it. The ultimate outcome was not positive. I could connect you with her and she could fill you in on what she knows now that she didn't know then and what she may have done differently :-[
Thanks Princess, I think I will hold on that since nothing is sure and I will try and think positive that this was just a fluke and she will be fine. But I will ask you if it necessary. :)
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the latest Addie boo boo pics don't scroll down if squeamish :P
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her elbow (not really a big deal but just to get the whole scope of it) that's her head down in the bottom right, the vet described them as her skin sloughing off :-\
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looks ugly...but looks good too
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looks ugly...but looks good too
He said the big one on her leg will take a few weeks to completely heal. We go back on the 20th for a recheck unless it gets infected before then.
I think the possible reason for all those "sores" and skin destruction is what he is concerned about.
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I should clarify, those dark centers on both her knee and her side are NOT scabs, that is her skin (with fur), that "skin" is actually, like he said, sloughing off. Her immune system attacked her skin and killed it in those areas and it's slowing falling off revealing the new skin underneath as the edges curl up.
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I should clarify, those dark centers on both her knee and her side are NOT scabs, that is her skin (with fur), that "skin" is actually, like he said, sloughing off. Her immune system attacked her skin and killed it in those areas and it's slowing falling off revealing the new skin underneath as the edges curl up.
I don't think you can say with any certianty that the immune system "attacked the skin" there. What kept the immune system from attacking the rest of the skin all over the body? Why at just those localized areas? That doesn't make sense.
Those areas look to me like what I described in your PM---areas of vasculitis. There was loss of blood flow to that particular area of skin and the skin died as a result. Thats why there is dark/dried out skin with hair covering those areas. Now, I'm not going to say its impossible for there to have been some sort of immune complex disease that caused clogging of microvessels in the skin, but why isn't it all over her body. There is a form of lupus that affects the skin--discoid lupus. This absolutely DOES NOT look like that disease to me. DLE causes "collie nose" typically.
I'd still consider just having an ANA test done on Addie. It'll help solve any lupus questions and its not that expensive of a test.
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I don't think you can say with any certianty that the immune system "attacked the skin" there. What kept the immune system from attacking the rest of the skin all over the body? Why at just those localized areas? That doesn't make sense.
I think at this point the vet is kind of stumped. He doesn't think they are from pressure or anything, so he believes they are immune related. Psoriasis is an immune mediated skin problem and it doesn't affect every where on the body, it can just be localized. So who knows why?
He mentioned Lupus because if Addie was a person and had all those complications after surgery Lupus would be considered as a possibility.
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I think at this point the vet is kind of stumped.
Are there any vet universities near you ~flower?
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Are there any vet universities near you ~flower?
Yes, Cornell is close. I shouldn't of used the word "stumped" because we haven't done any tests that have left us "stumped" yet. There are a few that would rule out or confirm some possibilities. When she goes back on the 20th I am sure we will discuss them again and decide if any should be done.
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The "head vet" of the Vet I go to went to Cornell. Great school.
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The "head vet" of the Vet I go to went to Cornell. Great school.
They're thinking of renaming it New York A&M.
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They're thinking of renaming it New York A&M.
Seriously? If that is a joke I don't get it? ??? ::)
Boo-boo update!! This is her side boo-boo, it is "sloughing off" :P
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okay, update time again. The skin on her side fell off, it looks like a car lighter was held to her side. But it looks okay considering. Her back leg has me concerned. About half of the skin fell or shriveled off and I can't believe the number of layers deep this thing is!! I think I might call her vet tomorrow and see if I can get her in to have it checked, I don't think I want to wait till the 20th. I wonder if she is in pain because it looks like it would hurt, but she doesn't really act like it.
Again, don't look if you are squeamish......
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What in the hell causes that shit.. That is some serious nastyness.
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What in the hell causes that shit.. That is some serious nastyness.
The pictures Flower posted up make me more positive of what I said this was in the first place. There was damage/clotting/rupture/whatever to the deeper blood vessels (capillaries) supplying that particular area of skin with blood. The skin died. What you see is the healing process. Skin, with any injury, will heal from the edges in towards the center of the injury---thats why the outside appears less deep than the center and why there is that ringed/pink appearance to the skin. The deepest part--the center, which occurs because the vessels come up towards the surface then "branch out" has not got that degree of healing done yet. I wouldn't push pulling off the scab in the center. Let it fall off on its own.
Overall, that doesn't look that bad. Addie will heal. Nothing looks infected. There are going to be some scaring, but as that scar shrinks with time and contraction occurs, it shouldn't look so bad. I wouldn't recommend surgery to remove the scars (some vets would encourage this---its unnecessary unless you have personal issues with them)
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We just got back from the vet's, Addie is going to have debridement and closure surgery tomorrow. In some spots it has gone down to the muscle but he believes the muscle is fine. We had hoped that it was just going to be a superficial layer of skin like the one on her side and not this. :-\
He said it could heal on it's own in about 6-8 weeks, I really don't want her walking around with it for that long like that and hoping it heals fine and no infection sets in. He feels there is more than enough skin to close it and will put a drain in for a few days and thinks the surgery is a good decision.
A CBC is being done just to make sure that her blood is fine again.
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Vet what do you think about Flower applying Vitamin E capsule liquid on the wound after the drain tube is out. That is what we did with Chaos and his scar is healing up very well. We just cut the Vitamin E capsules and put the liquid on his scar and massaged it in??
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That sounds like a good idea Sin. Would help keep it pliable while healing.
She'll get some pain meds too, something not a NSAID because of her recent bleeding problem. That will be good for her, you can't tell me missing a chunk of your skin down to the muscle doesn't hurt. And every time she sits down it stretches across the knee which has to make it worse.
Better to close it up to help it heal faster. I just hope I don't end up regretting this decision like I have her spay!!
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Vet what do you think about Flower applying Vitamin E capsule liquid on the wound after the drain tube is out. That is what we did with Chaos and his scar is healing up very well. We just cut the Vitamin E capsules and put the liquid on his scar and massaged it in??
It won't hurt anything.
Those don't look like full thickness skin lesions to me, but I'd really have to see her in person to make certian. Even if it was full thickness, I'm not sure I'd do anything with them until they are fully healed considering the size of the lesions.
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The last of the skin sloughed off. Yes, I picked part of it off the carpet! :-X
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Reference pics - want to see how much the scar eventually shrinks. :-\ I don;t care if she has a scar as long as the scar isn't bothering her because it is "tight" or something. She already has one on the top of a back foot, and a few on her head from Bri, so what's another one. They just give her more character than she already has. But she can stop adding character anytime now. :(
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Reference pics - want to see how much the scar eventually shrinks. :-\ I don;t care if she has a scar as long as the scar isn't bothering her because it is "tight" or something. She already has one on the top of a back foot, and a few on her head from Bri, so what's another one. They just give her more character than she already has. But she can stop adding character anytime now. :(
OMG poor addie! :(
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Addie did good. Is happy to be home and was STARVING. He had to remove a lot of tissue to get rid of the dying stuff and get healthy tissue that will hopefully start to heal. She goes back Saturday and the tube will probably go out, then we go back Wed. for another check to make sure it's not histanizing (?) should of wrote that one down. Then back in two weeks to get the sutures out. He said he noticed another "patch" on her belly that he didn't see before that he thinks is going to be like the one on her side. I haven't taken a look to see if it is one of the smaller ones she has had getting bigger, or if it is a new one. She has some pain meds, Tramadol (Ultram for humans) so she should be more comfortable. She has managed to get on the couch although I could see her hesitate getting that leg up. I have a comforter on the floor, but she prefers the couch. And everyone including Tad recognized her!!
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Oh man :'(
Have someone build a ramp for her so it's easier for her to get on the couch :'(
Or cut the couch in half horizontally so it's not so high :'(
Or just carry her around. You can do it you're strong :'(
:'(
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Oh man :'(
Have someone build a ramp for her so it's easier for her to get on the couch :'(
Or cut the couch in half horizontally so it's not so high :'(
Or just carry her around. You can do it you're strong :'(
All EXCELLENT suggestions STella!! ;D She seemed to be in less pain this morning and her pain pill had probably worn off. She got another dose before I left for work.
I cringe when she sits or lays down and that knee is bending though! :-X
There didn't seem to have been much "drainage", I found a few blood spots which is to be expected but nothing that seemed to be a concern.
I wonder if they just pull the tube out? Wouldn't that hurt? :-\ Will she get a numbing agent at the site? I think I would be pretty ticked and bite someone!
ps- see my walls? :D
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I wonder if they just pull the tube out? Wouldn't that hurt? :-\ Will she get a numbing agent at the site? I think I would be pretty ticked and bite someone!
Yeah, I don't know. When does the tube come out?
ps- see my walls? :D
Thanks for making me scroll back up through the open sore pics >:(
..but yes! Your walls look good! :)
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The tube should come out Saturday, so far the wound looks good and Addie is doing good. *paws crossed*
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Dear God!!!! Someone needs to take that dog to Hawaii for a month . . .
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Dear God!!!! Someone needs to take that dog to Hawaii for a month . . .
I'll take her :)
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All EXCELLENT suggestions STella!! ;D She seemed to be in less pain this morning and her pain pill had probably worn off. She got another dose before I left for work.
I cringe when she sits or lays down and that knee is bending though! :-X
There didn't seem to have been much "drainage", I found a few blood spots which is to be expected but nothing that seemed to be a concern.
I wonder if they just pull the tube out? Wouldn't that hurt? :-\ Will she get a numbing agent at the site? I think I would be pretty ticked and bite someone!
ps- see my walls? :D
Yeah, they'll just remove the sutures and "pull the tube". its the same basic thing thats done in humans if you've ever had a drain post surgery. When I had the drain removed from my chest, it was a weird, weird feeling, I'll tell you that. I think dogs feel about the same. I will say though, I have sedated a couple of dogs who acted like removing the tube was really painful or they were aggressive.
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Yeah, they'll just remove the sutures and "pull the tube". its the same basic thing thats done in humans if you've ever had a drain post surgery. When I had the drain removed from my chest, it was a weird, weird feeling, I'll tell you that. I think dogs feel about the same. I will say though, I have sedated a couple of dogs who acted like removing the tube was really painful or they were aggressive.
But the sutures aren't being removed? The tube will hopefully be coming out tomorrow, the sutures have another 10 days to stay in. :P
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I'll take her :)
I have to chaperon! ;)
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But the sutures aren't being removed? The tube will hopefully be coming out tomorrow, the sutures have another 10 days to stay in. :P
There should be 2-4 sutures anchoring the tube in place---typically one to two on each end of the tube, although depending on teh closure, there may be one in the center too. Those sutures will need to be removed, leaving an open tract under the skin where the tube was. That will fill in over the next 48 hours or so. The skin sutures will stay in until the skin is healed sufficiently to withstand tension--typically 10 to 14 days.
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There should be 2-4 sutures anchoring the tube in place---typically one to two on each end of the tube, although depending on teh closure, there may be one in the center too. Those sutures will need to be removed, leaving an open tract under the skin where the tube was. That will fill in over the next 48 hours or so. The skin sutures will stay in until the skin is healed sufficiently to withstand tension--typically 10 to 14 days.
Ohhhhhhhhhhh, I was thinking the suture sutures. Thanks. :)
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I did'nt realize addie was that serious (I don't read this board much) but glad she's home and doing better...
Bear had a drain tube for her eye when it was taken out too
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I did'nt realize addie was that serious (I don't read this board much) but glad she's home and doing better...
Bear had a drain tube for her eye when it was taken out too
:(
Hopefully she will get a good checkup tomorrow and things are healing fine.
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The drain tube came out piece of cake. I was surprised, she didn't even notice. :D
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The drain tube came out piece of cake. I was surprised, she didn't even notice. :D
Did you have an ANA test run? What were the results?
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Did you have an ANA test run? What were the results?
No we haven't done that yet. He wants her to heal first and not have the test skewed because of the current issues. He almost was going to send tissue out from her leg to the pathologist but he thought that could return a false positive.
I think he mentioned another test but I can't remember the name of it.
What begins with an "h" that could happen after surgery, sound kind of like histanin....hesanine.... . That is why the recheck again on Weds.
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No we haven't done that yet. He wants her to heal first and not have the test skewed because of the current issues. He almost was going to send tissue out from her leg to the pathologist but he thought that could return a false positive.
I think he mentioned another test but I can't remember the name of it.
What begins with an "h" that could happen after surgery, sound kind of like histanin....hesanine.... . That is why the recheck again on Weds.
Starts with an H? hmmmmm.
The diagnostic criteria for SLE (Systemic Lupus Erythmatosis) are:
Major Signs:
-Polyarthritis
-Protein-losing nephropathy
-Hemolytic anemia
-Marked thrombocytopenia
-Leukopenia
-Skin lesions
-Polymyositis
Minor signs:
-Fever
-Lymphadenopathy
-Oral ulceration
-Central nervous system signs, such as seizure
-Pericarditis
-Pleuritis
Serology:
-Antinuclear antibody (ANA)
-Lupus erythematosus (LE) cell preparation
Definite SLE, 2 or more major signs with positive serology; 1 major sign and 2 or more minor signs with positive serology.
Whats interesting to me about Addie and my life now is that I may have consulted with the first case of SLE identified in a Maned Wolf not too long ago. We are waiting for final diagnostics to come back and confirm things. Unfortunately the wolf didn't make it. :-\ :'(
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what's a maned wolf look like?
one of those ginormous things you see loafing on golf courses in alaska?
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what's a maned wolf look like?
one of those ginormous things you see loafing on golf courses in alaska?
No, these are a south american species.... basically they look like a long legged red fox. Typical adult size is about 50-60 lbs.
(http://www.shoarns.com/maned%20wolf%203.jpg)
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No, these are a south american species.... basically they look like a long legged red fox. Typical adult size is about 50-60 lbs.
(http://www.shoarns.com/maned%20wolf%203.jpg)
dear jesus, that is a weird looking fox/dog/wolf. are foxes making a comeback? couple years ago I was sitting outside a coffee shop in ann arbor when a fox streaked through the parking lot.
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dear jesus, that is a weird looking fox/dog/wolf. are foxes making a comeback? couple years ago I was sitting outside a coffee shop in ann arbor when a fox streaked through the parking lot.
My understanding is it depends on what part of the US you are in. They haven't adapted to urbanization as well as coyotes have, but they do seem to be adapting. Reds apparently are doing better than greys too.
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My understanding is it depends on what part of the US you are in. They haven't adapted to urbanization as well as coyotes have, but they do seem to be adapting. Reds apparently are doing better than greys too.
one I saw was a big red.
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Starts with an H? hmmmmm.
yes, hissanize? I believe it means something like blood vessels aren't working at the site? He said it would happen about 5-7 days after surgery if it was going to. I will have to ask him to spell it.
Major Signs:
-Polyarthritis
-Protein-losing nephropathy
-Hemolytic anemia
-Marked thrombocytopenia
-Leukopenia
-Skin lesions
-Polymyositis
So she had to major, thrombocytopenia and the skin lesions.
That sucks about the wolf, very interesting looking animal. Are they rare or endangered?
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yes, hissanize? I believe it means something like blood vessels aren't working at the site? He said it would happen about 5-7 days after surgery if it was going to. I will have to ask him to spell it.
So she had to major, thrombocytopenia and the skin lesions.
That sucks about the wolf, very interesting looking animal. Are they rare or endangered?
I'm still missing it on the test. Sorry.
If I remember right, the IUCN has Maned Wolves listed as "near threatened" or "vulnerable".