Author Topic: Sarah Palin doubles down on "Death Panels".  (Read 2095 times)

Soul Crusher

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Sarah Palin doubles down on "Death Panels".
« on: August 13, 2009, 11:23:25 AM »
FROM HER FACEBOOK PAGE (YES I AM A FRIEND).


Concerning the "Death Panels"Share
 Yesterday at 11:55pm


Yesterday President Obama responded to my statement that Democratic health care proposals would lead to rationed care; that the sick, the elderly, and the disabled would suffer the most under such rationing; and that under such a system these “unproductive” members of society could face the prospect of government bureaucrats determining whether they deserve health care.

The President made light of these concerns. He said:

“Let me just be specific about some things that I’ve been hearing lately that we just need to dispose of here. The rumor that’s been circulating a lot lately is this idea that somehow the House of Representatives voted for death panels that will basically pull the plug on grandma because we’ve decided that we don’t, it’s too expensive to let her live anymore....It turns out that I guess this arose out of a provision in one of the House bills that allowed Medicare to reimburse people for consultations about end-of-life care, setting up living wills, the availability of hospice, etc. So the intention of the members of Congress was to give people more information so that they could handle issues of end-of-life care when they’re ready on their own terms. It wasn’t forcing anybody to do anything.” [1]

The provision that President Obama refers to is Section 1233 of HR 3200, entitled “Advance Care Planning Consultation.” [2] With all due respect, it’s misleading for the President to describe this section as an entirely voluntary provision that simply increases the information offered to Medicare recipients. The issue is the context in which that information is provided and the coercive effect these consultations will have in that context.

Section 1233 authorizes advanced care planning consultations for senior citizens on Medicare every five years, and more often “if there is a significant change in the health condition of the individual ... or upon admission to a skilled nursing facility, a long-term care facility... or a hospice program." [3] During those consultations, practitioners must explain “the continuum of end-of-life services and supports available, including palliative care and hospice,” and the government benefits available to pay for such services. [4]

Now put this in context. These consultations are authorized whenever a Medicare recipient’s health changes significantly or when they enter a nursing home, and they are part of a bill whose stated purpose is “to reduce the growth in health care spending.” [5] Is it any wonder that senior citizens might view such consultations as attempts to convince them to help reduce health care costs by accepting minimal end-of-life care? As Charles Lane notes in the Washington Post, Section 1233 “addresses compassionate goals in disconcerting proximity to fiscal ones.... If it’s all about obviating suffering, emotional or physical, what’s it doing in a measure to “bend the curve” on health-care costs?” [6]

As Lane also points out:

Though not mandatory, as some on the right have claimed, the consultations envisioned in Section 1233 aren’t quite “purely voluntary,” as Rep. Sander M. Levin (D-Mich.) asserts. To me, “purely voluntary” means “not unless the patient requests one.” Section 1233, however, lets doctors initiate the chat and gives them an incentive -- money -- to do so. Indeed, that’s an incentive to insist.

Patients may refuse without penalty, but many will bow to white-coated authority. Once they’re in the meeting, the bill does permit “formulation” of a plug-pulling order right then and there. So when Rep. Earl Blumenauer (D-Ore.) denies that Section 1233 would “place senior citizens in situations where they feel pressured to sign end-of-life directives that they would not otherwise sign,” I don’t think he’s being realistic. [7]

Even columnist Eugene Robinson, a self-described “true believer” who “will almost certainly support” “whatever reform package finally emerges”, agrees that “If the government says it has to control health-care costs and then offers to pay doctors to give advice about hospice care, citizens are not delusional to conclude that the goal is to reduce end-of-life spending.” [8]

So are these usually friendly pundits wrong? Is this all just a “rumor” to be “disposed of”, as President Obama says? Not according to Democratic New York State Senator Ruben Diaz, Chairman of the New York State Senate Aging Committee, who writes:

Section 1233 of House Resolution 3200 puts our senior citizens on a slippery slope and may diminish respect for the inherent dignity of each of their lives.... It is egregious to consider that any senior citizen ... should be placed in a situation where he or she would feel pressured to save the government money by dying a little sooner than he or she otherwise would, be required to be counseled about the supposed benefits of killing oneself, or be encouraged to sign any end of life directives that they would not otherwise sign. [9]

Of course, it’s not just this one provision that presents a problem. My original comments concerned statements made by Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, a health policy advisor to President Obama and the brother of the President’s chief of staff. Dr. Emanuel has written that some medical services should not be guaranteed to those “who are irreversibly prevented from being or becoming participating citizens....An obvious example is not guaranteeing health services to patients with dementia.” [10] Dr. Emanuel has also advocated basing medical decisions on a system which “produces a priority curve on which individuals aged between roughly 15 and 40 years get the most chance, whereas the youngest and oldest people get chances that are attenuated.” [11]

President Obama can try to gloss over the effects of government authorized end-of-life consultations, but the views of one of his top health care advisors are clear enough. It’s all just more evidence that the Democratic legislative proposals will lead to health care rationing, and more evidence that the top-down plans of government bureaucrats will never result in real health care reform.

[1] See http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/08/president-obama-addresses-sarah-palin-death-panels-wild-representations.html.
[2] See http://edlabor.house.gov/documents/111/pdf/publications/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf
[3] See HR 3200 sec. 1233 (hhh)(1); Sec. 1233 (hhh)(3)(B)(1), above.
[4] See HR 3200 sec. 1233 (hhh)(1)(E), above.
[5] See http://edlabor.house.gov/documents/111/pdf/publications/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf
[6] See http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/07/AR2009080703043.html].
[7] Id.
[8] See http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/10/AR2009081002455.html].
[9] See http://www.nysenate.gov/press-release/letter-congressman-henry-waxman-re-section-1233-hr-3200.
[10] See http://www.ncpa.org/pdfs/Where_Civic_Republicanism_and_Deliberative_Democracy_Meet.pdf
[11] See http://www.scribd.com/doc/18280675/Principles-for-Allocation-of-Scarce-Medical-Interventions.

________________________ ________________________ ________________________ ______ 

Where is Palin factually incorrect in this???



MM2K

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Re: Sarah Palin doubles down on "Death Panels".
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2009, 01:40:41 PM »
This whole "death panel" discussion is retarded. Sarah Palin probably shouldnt have used that type of rhetoric, but unfortunately talking points like that are the only type of language that liberals understand.

In essence, we already have "death panels" for healthcare, and no matter what system we have, we will have to have "death panels". We have "death panels" for just about every other resource we consume. The market provides a "death panel" for the amount of electricity we use. The point is, who would you rather have ruling these "death panels"? I would rather have me and my doctor and insurer on that death panel. Not some beaurocrat that can come into my house with a gun and take my money away from me. If the government is the only one on that death panel, the plug will be pulled way to early. Just as government death panels pull the plug way too early on electicity (blackouts in California).
Jan. Jobs: 36,000!!

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Re: Sarah Palin doubles down on "Death Panels".
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2009, 12:19:14 PM »
The dems took that provision out of the bill in the senate version.Palin wins,dems and media loose.

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Re: Sarah Palin doubles down on "Death Panels".
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2009, 12:22:40 PM »
quitters never win, and winners never quit

Soul Crusher

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Re: Sarah Palin doubles down on "Death Panels".
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2009, 12:25:13 PM »
quitters never win, and winners never quit

She won on this one 240.  The Senate is taking the provisions out. 

240 - you have shilled for Obama from Day 1 and are seriously entering Lurker territory. 

Obama is losing popularity by the day and his policies are even less popular than he is personally.  The stimulus is not doing squat, cap & trade is going nowhere, he is less transparent than Bush, and on and on. 

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Re: Sarah Palin doubles down on "Death Panels".
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2009, 12:44:10 PM »
Quote
quitters never win, and winners never quit


andreisdaman

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Re: Sarah Palin doubles down on "Death Panels".
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2009, 12:44:37 PM »
This whole "death panel" discussion is retarded. Sarah Palin probably shouldnt have used that type of rhetoric, but unfortunately talking points like that are the only type of language that liberals understand.

In essence, we already have "death panels" for healthcare, and no matter what system we have, we will have to have "death panels". We have "death panels" for just about every other resource we consume. The market provides a "death panel" for the amount of electricity we use. The point is, who would you rather have ruling these "death panels"? I would rather have me and my doctor and insurer on that death panel. Not some beaurocrat that can come into my house with a gun and take my money away from me. If the government is the only one on that death panel, the plug will be pulled way to early. Just as government death panels pull the plug way too early on electicity (blackouts in California).

actually you are right about this....someone has to make the decision sometimes whether to end a life....but usually if's the family.....when my mother had a stroke and was in the hospital, two doctors explained to us that there was no hope for recovery.....they could keep her alive on machines but she would never wake up and talk and move around...that was a death panel so to speak...after consulting with them my family decided to pull the plug....the doctors felt that there was hope for recovery and we made the decision.....also the insurance companies are already "death panels" since they decide what they are going to pay for and what they aren't going to pay for.....Sarah Palins argument is stupid

andreisdaman

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Re: Sarah Palin doubles down on "Death Panels".
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2009, 12:46:44 PM »
She won on this one 240.  The Senate is taking the provisions out. 

240 - you have shilled for Obama from Day 1 and are seriously entering Lurker territory. 

Obama is losing popularity by the day and his policies are even less popular than he is personally.  The stimulus is not doing squat, cap & trade is going nowhere, he is less transparent than Bush, and on and on. 


again wishful thinking on your part..if the economy turned around, and millions of jobs were created and the economy was doing well and the obama health care plan worked and saved us a ton of money and he was able to reduce deficits, you STILL would have a problem with him

Soul Crusher

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Re: Sarah Palin doubles down on "Death Panels".
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2009, 12:48:41 PM »

again wishful thinking on your part..if the economy turned around, and millions of jobs were created and the economy was doing well and the obama health care plan worked and saved us a ton of money and he was able to reduce deficits, you STILL would have a problem with him

We dont and wont have to worry about that happening.   ;D

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Re: Sarah Palin doubles down on "Death Panels".
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2009, 01:00:54 PM »

again wishful thinking on your part..if the economy turned around, and millions of jobs were created and the economy was doing well and the obama health care plan worked and saved us a ton of money and he was able to reduce deficits, you STILL would have a problem with him

Ha,ha,maybe he can cure cancer and walk on water as well.ZERO jobs created,economy still in free fall,his health care scam is being exposed and his deficits are off the chart.

shootfighter1

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Re: Sarah Palin doubles down on "Death Panels".
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2009, 01:27:16 PM »
Its a matter of semantics.

That would be great andre...but we'd still have the massive debt that Obama (and Bush in his last year) created.

andreisdaman

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Re: Sarah Palin doubles down on "Death Panels".
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2009, 02:13:54 PM »
Ha,ha,maybe he can cure cancer and walk on water as well.ZERO jobs created,economy still in free fall,his health care scam is being exposed and his deficits are off the chart.


you're hysterical....the guy has been in office for 6 months...give him a chance..see me in two years

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Re: Sarah Palin doubles down on "Death Panels".
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2009, 02:25:56 PM »

you're hysterical....the guy has been in office for 6 months...give him a chance..see me in two years

And yet he has already aqired four times the debt.Pretty impressive.

a_joker10

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Re: Sarah Palin doubles down on "Death Panels".
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2009, 02:28:31 PM »
You forget about the dollar.

That is the real problem in all of this.

Your total economy versus the rest of the world shrunk by 10% in February.
We can call it Stimulus blowback.
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Re: Sarah Palin doubles down on "Death Panels".
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2009, 02:33:38 PM »
And yet he has already aqired four times the debt.Pretty impressive.
who dug the hole?  He's not the only person to blame.  What you guys are doing is the same a blaming a doctor for wrongly diagnosing and treatment of a meth addict.

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Re: Sarah Palin doubles down on "Death Panels".
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2009, 04:08:52 PM »
who dug the hole?  He's not the only person to blame.  What you guys are doing is the same a blaming a doctor for wrongly diagnosing and treatment of a meth addict.

I am so fucking sick of everything being quantified by what the last guy did, Obama is the POTUS he is the man now. Why don't you explain to me how spending more when you in debt up to your eyeballs is a smart move? I don't have any party alegence, I think all politicians are equally worthless. What I find completely insane is you will defend what Obama does not matter how stupid it is.
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Decker

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Re: Sarah Palin doubles down on "Death Panels".
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2009, 04:32:50 PM »
Palin is the dolt we all thought she was.  She's a quitter.  She's a coward.  And she's dangerously uninformed.

Obama's health plan is not UHC.  Obama's health plan offers insurance to the uninsured and underinsured.

All insurance providers ration care and limit doctor choice and analyze the feasiblity of expenditures.

Her propaganda is just that.  It's designed to make people hate something they don't understand.

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Re: Sarah Palin doubles down on "Death Panels".
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2009, 05:46:02 PM »
Bush dug the hole.  Obama is getting us how the way he sees fit.

Eight months into his administration, the DOW is higher, and the MAJORITY of economists agree the economy is recovering. 


Saying the stimulus 'did nothing' is incorrect.  It did give millions and millions of states who used it to create jobs.  jindal took credit for a lot of jobs in his state created with sim $.  Those folks are paying taxes and going to work everyday because of the stim.  is it accurate to say it 'did nothing' for them?

andreisdaman

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Re: Sarah Palin doubles down on "Death Panels".
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2009, 05:54:26 PM »
You forget about the dollar.

That is the real problem in all of this.

Your total economy versus the rest of the world shrunk by 10% in February.
We can call it Stimulus blowback.

this is dumb...the entire world economy shrunk..not just the U.S.....get it together..at least criticize Obama on the facts..you're getting sloppy just like 3333

andreisdaman

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Re: Sarah Palin doubles down on "Death Panels".
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2009, 05:58:51 PM »
I am so fucking sick of everything being quantified by what the last guy did, Obama is the POTUS he is the man now. Why don't you explain to me how spending more when you in debt up to your eyeballs is a smart move? I don't have any party alegence, I think all politicians are equally worthless. What I find completely insane is you will defend what Obama does not matter how stupid it is.


the same way Bush spent up to our eyeballs with the Iraq war and other stuff..plus giving us a tax cut we didn't need which is where the REAL deficit started....and during the Bush years we went deep into hock to the chinese..we are going to be paying the interest on that for a very long time.....I say this and I was and still am a Bush supporter...can you argue that this is untrue???????????????????..or are you crazy like 3333 as well???????????

andreisdaman

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Re: Sarah Palin doubles down on "Death Panels".
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2009, 06:01:32 PM »
Palin is the dolt we all thought she was.  She's a quitter.  She's a coward.  And she's dangerously uninformed.

Obama's health plan is not UHC.  Obama's health plan offers insurance to the uninsured and underinsured.

All insurance providers ration care and limit doctor choice and analyze the feasiblity of expenditures.

Her propaganda is just that.  It's designed to make people hate something they don't understand.

finally a voice of reason...you are so right that you'll probably have scared all the detractors and Obama haters away from this thread once they've read your post..GOOD JOB!!! ;)

Decker

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Re: Sarah Palin doubles down on "Death Panels".
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2009, 06:11:33 PM »
finally a voice of reason...you are so right that you'll probably have scared all the detractors and Obama haters away from this thread once they've read your post..GOOD JOB!!! ;)
I should have said that of your post on the matter.

The healthcare problem bugs me to no end.  When I see the subject demagogued by opponents-it's socialism, you're losing freedom, etc-it drives me up a wall.  There are real people in real need.

There's no amount of rugged individualism that's going to ameliorate their situation.  So that discounts almost all libertarian critiques of the health plan.

We fight the good fight.

andreisdaman

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Re: Sarah Palin doubles down on "Death Panels".
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2009, 06:36:44 PM »
I should have said that of your post on the matter.

The healthcare problem bugs me to no end.  When I see the subject demagogued by opponents-it's socialism, you're losing freedom, etc-it drives me up a wall.  There are real people in real need.

There's no amount of rugged individualism that's going to ameliorate their situation.  So that discounts almost all libertarian critiques of the health plan.

We fight the good fight.


exactly....people are so riled up over nothing that they can't see that Obama is trying to make sure everyone in America can see a doctor without worrying about payment (which prevents a lot of people from going)

it makes no sense for us to be such a rich country and not make sure that ALL citizens have health care..it's embarrassing

I do agree that the cost is something we should worry about and I'd like some more explanation about how it's going to be paid for...

but all of this other business about death panels and nazism and socialism is really obscuring the issue

Sarah Palin is an idiot who is woefully inadequate intellectually to be president and to deal with complex issues...she's pretty and yes I'd definitely sleep with her but that's it...it would be scary if she was in charge of our nuclear weapons

Soul Crusher

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Re: Sarah Palin doubles down on "Death Panels".
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2009, 07:36:30 PM »
Not to break up this little make out session between you two, but the fact is that there will be rationing and Obama is lying about it. 

The fact that the evil insurance companies may do it does not make Obama's lies go away.  Aditionally, people always have the choice to go to anoher carrier.  When the gov is the only game in town and says no, you are done.   

andreisdaman

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Re: Sarah Palin doubles down on "Death Panels".
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2009, 08:15:02 PM »
Not to break up this little make out session between you two, but the fact is that there will be rationing and Obama is lying about it. 

The fact that the evil insurance companies may do it does not make Obama's lies go away.  Aditionally, people always have the choice to go to anoher carrier.  When the gov is the only game in town and says no, you are done.   


again you are exaggerating...there is already rationing by the insurance companies...and the government wil never be the only game in town.....because the government will probably give only minimum care...the insurance companies will still be around for more care if you chose to buy that....where is Obama's lies?....don't see any yet...and how would u know if he is lying or not?..you and others like you are not even listening.....Medicare for elders is a GOVERNMENT PROGRAM......medicaid for children is a GOVERNMENT PROGRAM.....when a person goes to the hospital and has no money or insurance, the bill is paid by GOVERNMENT MONIES to the hospital.....The government is sure doing a good job running those programs aren't they???...you are actually getting sillier and sillier......Jaguar and I already gave you a good ass-kicking on the other board ..and you come back for more???


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