Author Topic: Is this not a "Death Panel" by the govt?  (Read 2417 times)

bears

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Re: Is this not a "Death Panel" by the govt?
« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2013, 02:18:04 PM »
Do you have any confidence that a private firm who 's purpose is to make money for themselves will act to the best interest of the individual?
(General question)

Do you have any confidence that a government agency who 's purpose is to dole money out to whom it sees fit based upon an annual budget will act in the best interest of the individual?
(different question, can logically come to the same answer)

your question is based upon the fallacious premise that "government (NOT FOR PROFIT)= good" and "corporation (FOR PROFIT) = bad"

because "profit" is a swear word to you.

whork

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Re: Is this not a "Death Panel" by the govt?
« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2013, 04:01:40 PM »
Do you have any confidence that a government agency who 's purpose is to dole money out to whom it sees fit based upon an annual budget will act in the best interest of the individual?
(different question, can logically come to the same answer)

Nope.

your question is based upon the fallacious premise that "government (NOT FOR PROFIT)= good" and "corporation (FOR PROFIT) = bad"

because "profit" is a swear word to you.


Yeah i hate profit.

I just love when im broke compared to when im loaded ::)

You really think anybody hates Money?




bears

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Re: Is this not a "Death Panel" by the govt?
« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2013, 07:29:56 AM »

Yeah i hate profit.

I just love when im broke compared to when im loaded ::)

You really think anybody hates Money?


do you read your own posts???????  you obviously believe that a corporation with a profit motive will not serve the "individual".  and you think that a government agancy will be better for the individual.  why?  why do you assume that they will perform more efficiently? 

bears

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Re: Is this not a "Death Panel" by the govt?
« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2013, 07:36:19 AM »
have you looked at our governments balance sheet lately????

Soul Crusher

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Re: Is this not a "Death Panel" by the govt?
« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2013, 07:38:45 AM »
Funny too Obama and Sebelius the two criminals they are give waivers to unions for obamacare but not this dying girl to get a lung. 

whork

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Re: Is this not a "Death Panel" by the govt?
« Reply #30 on: June 06, 2013, 03:12:47 PM »
do you read your own posts???????  you obviously believe that a corporation with a profit motive will not serve the "individual".  and you think that a government agancy will be better for the individual.  why?  why do you assume that they will perform more efficiently? 


Lets try again.

If a corporation can make a profit for denying you a service (Example you pay to your health insurance and they deny it when you need it on technicality) they most often will.

A government agency who gets their funds elsewhere would have less incentive to deny you a sevice like the one above.

This is all hypothetical of course and was a reply to an earlier post where someone argued something i cant even fucking remember right now.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Is this not a "Death Panel" by the govt?
« Reply #31 on: June 06, 2013, 03:37:02 PM »
U.S. intelligence mining data from nine U.S. Internet companies in broad secret program

By Barton Gellman and Laura Poitras, Thursday, June 6, 5:43 PM

The National Security Agency and the FBI are tapping directly into the central servers of nine leading U.S. Internet companies, extracting audio, video, photographs, e-mails, documents and connection logs that enable analysts to track a person’s movements and contacts over time.

The highly classified program, code-named PRISM, has not been disclosed publicly before. Its establishment in 2007 and six years of exponential growth took place beneath the surface of a roiling debate over the boundaries of surveillance and privacy. Even late last year, when critics of the foreign intelligence statute argued for changes, the only members of Congress who know about PRISM were bound by oaths of office to hold their tongues.

An internal presentation on the Silicon Valley operation, intended for senior analysts in the NSA’s Signals Intelligence Directorate, described the new tool as the most prolific contributor to the President’s Daily Brief, which cited PRISM data in 1,477 articles last year. According to the briefing slides, obtained by The Washington Post, “NSA reporting increasingly relies on PRISM” as its leading source of raw material, accounting for nearly 1 in 7 intelligence reports.

That is a remarkable figure in an agency that measures annual intake in the trillions of communications. It is all the more striking because the NSA, whose lawful mission is foreign intelligence, is reaching deep inside the machinery of American companies that host hundreds of millions of American-held accounts on American soil.

The technology companies, which participate knowingly in PRISM operations, include most of the dominant global players of Silicon Valley. They are listed on a roster that bears their logos in order of entry into the program: “Microsoft, Yahoo, Google, Facebook, PalTalk, AOL, Skype, YouTube, Apple.” PalTalk, although much smaller, has hosted significant traffic during the Arab Spring and in the ongoing Syrian civil war.

Dropbox , the cloud storage and synchronization service, is described as “coming soon.”

Government officials declined to comment for this story.

Roots in the ’70s

PRISM is an heir, in one sense, to a history of intelligence alliances with as many as 100 trusted U.S. companies since the 1970s. The NSA calls these Special Source Operations, and PRISM falls under that rubric.

The Silicon Valley operation works alongside a parallel program, code-named BLARNEY, that gathers up “metadata” — address packets, device signatures and the like — as it streams past choke points along the backbone of the Internet. BLARNEY’s top-secret program summary, set down alongside a cartoon insignia of a shamrock and a leprechaun hat, describes it as “an ongoing collection program that leverages IC [intelligence community] and commercial partnerships to gain access and exploit foreign intelligence obtained from global networks.”

But the PRISM program appears more nearly to resemble the most controversial of the warrantless surveillance orders issued by President George W. Bush after the al-Qaeda attacks of Sept. 11, 2001. Its history, in which President Obama presided over “exponential growth” in a program that candidate Obama criticized, shows how fundamentally surveillance law and practice have shifted away from individual suspicion in favor of systematic, mass collection techniques.

The PRISM program is not a dragnet, exactly. From inside a company’s data stream the NSA is capable of pulling out anything it likes, but under current rules the agency does not try to collect it all.

Analysts who use the system from a Web portal at Fort Meade key in “selectors,” or search terms, that are designed to produce at least 51 percent confidence in a target’s “foreignness.” That is not a very stringent test. Training materials obtained by the Post instruct new analysts to submit accidentally collected U.S. content for a quarterly report, “but it’s nothing to worry about.”

Even when the system works just as advertised, with no American singled out for targeting, the NSA routinely collects a great deal of American content. That is described as “incidental,” and it is inherent in contact chaining, one of the basic tools of the trade. To collect on a suspected spy or foreign terrorist means, at minimum, that everyone in the suspect’s inbox or outbox is swept in. Intelligence analysts are typically taught to chain through contacts two “hops” out from their target, which increases “incidental collection” exponentially. The same math explains the aphorism, from the John Guare play, that no one is more than “six degrees of separation” from Kevin Bacon.

A ‘directive’

Formally, in exchange for immunity from lawsuits, companies like Yahoo and AOL are obliged to accept a “directive” from the attorney general and the director of national intelligence to open their servers to the FBI’s Data Intercept Technology Unit, which handles liaison to U.S. companies from the NSA. In 2008, Congress gave the Justice Department authority to for a secret order from the Foreign Surveillance Intelligence Court to compel a reluctant company “to comply.”

In practice, there is room for a company to maneuver, delay or resist. When a clandestine intelligence program meets a highly regulated industry, said a lawyer with experience in bridging the gaps, neither side wants to risk a public fight. The engineering problems are so immense, in systems of such complexity and frequent change, that the FBI and NSA would be hard pressed to build in back doors without active help from each company.

Apple demonstrated that resistance is possible, for reasons unknown, when it held out for more than five years after Microsoft became PRISM’s first corporate partner in May 2007. Twitter, which has cultivated a reputation for aggressive defense of its users’ privacy, is still conspicuous by its absence from the list of “private sector partners.”

“Google cares deeply about the security of our users’ data,” a company spokesman said. “We disclose user data to government in accordance with the law, and we review all such requests carefully. From time to time, people allege that we have created a government ‘back door’ into our systems, but Google does not have a ‘back door’ for the government to access private user data.”

Like market researchers, but with far more privileged access, collection managers in the NSA’s Special Source Operations group, which oversees the PRISM program, are drawn to the wealth of information about their subjects in online accounts. For much the same reason, civil libertarians and some ordinary users may be troubled by the menu available to analysts who hold the required clearances to “task” the PRISM system.

There has been “continued exponential growth in tasking to Facebook and Skype,” according to the 41 PRISM slides. With a few clicks and an affirmation that the subject is believed to be engaged in terrorism, espionage or nuclear proliferation, an analyst obtains full access to Facebook’s “extensive search and surveillance capabilities against the variety of online social networking services.”

According to a separate “User’s Guide for PRISM Skype Collection,” that service can be monitored for audio when one end of the call is a conventional telephone and for any combination of “audio, video, chat, and file transfers” when Skype users connect by computer alone. Google’s offerings include Gmail, voice and video chat, Google Drive files, photo libraries, and live surveillance of search terms.

Firsthand experience with these systems, and horror at their capabilities, is what drove a career intelligence officer to provide PowerPoint slides about PRISM and supporting materials to The Washington Post in order to expose what he believes to be a gross intrusion on privacy. “They quite literally can watch your ideas form as you type,” the officer said.

 

Julie Tate and Robert O’Harrow Jr. contributed to this report.

Graphic: NSA slides explain the PRISM data-collection program

Skip8282

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Re: Is this not a "Death Panel" by the govt?
« Reply #32 on: June 06, 2013, 06:32:33 PM »
Hell yea this is a death panel.

Though I would disagree with George.  If the government weren't doing it, it would be some nameless, faceless, unaccountable group at an insurance company or hospital or whatever.

These are tough value judgments to make.  No way to reasonably get a large amount of people to agree, IMO.

Not sure what a better way forward is...though it might be better to do it state by state, then the value 'might' better align with people.  But...that's a mighty big 'might'.


Vince G, CSN MFT

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Re: Is this not a "Death Panel" by the govt?
« Reply #33 on: June 07, 2013, 04:48:18 AM »
http://therightscoop.com/breaking-cnn-reporting-that-judge-grants-order-for-girl-to-get-lung-transplant


Judge intervening 


Judge actually has no say in it....not only that, a lung has to be available and ultimately its the hospital and the doctors that makes the decision as to who gets it. 
A

bears

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Re: Is this not a "Death Panel" by the govt?
« Reply #34 on: June 07, 2013, 07:48:57 AM »

Lets try again.

If a corporation can make a profit for denying you a service (Example you pay to your health insurance and they deny it when you need it on technicality) they most often will.

A government agency who gets their funds elsewhere would have less incentive to deny you a sevice like the one above.

This is all hypothetical of course and was a reply to an earlier post where someone argued something i cant even fucking remember right now.

i dont know where you get your information but what you said was simply false.  you're just flat out wrong.  less incentive to deny you?  why?  they work on a budget just like a for profit does.  they deal with the same issues that a corporation does.  they're beholden to a bottom line just like a for profit.

again the only reason you're saying what you say and spreading misinformation is because its been pounded into your head by know nothing liberals that corporation = bad and government = good.  unfortunately you're a dime a dozen in this country.

whork

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Re: Is this not a "Death Panel" by the govt?
« Reply #35 on: June 08, 2013, 05:24:25 AM »
i dont know where you get your information but what you said was simply false.  you're just flat out wrong.  less incentive to deny you?  why?  they work on a budget just like a for profit does.  they deal with the same issues that a corporation does.  they're beholden to a bottom line just like a for profit.

again the only reason you're saying what you say and spreading misinformation is because its been pounded into your head by know nothing liberals that corporation = bad and government = good.  unfortunately you're a dime a dozen in this country.

All right Bears imagine this.

You check into a hospital get threatment and all of a sudden your insurance wont cover you because you failed to report you had some sort of illness as a kid.

Now try doing the same in a country where healtcare is already paid for by taxes. Nothing will be denied because the incentive isnt there like in the example above.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Is this not a "Death Panel" by the govt?
« Reply #36 on: June 08, 2013, 05:32:20 AM »
All right Bears imagine this.

You check into a hospital get threatment and all of a sudden your insurance wont cover you because you failed to report you had some sort of illness as a kid.

Now try doing the same in a country where healtcare is already paid for by taxes. Nothing will be denied because the incentive isnt there like in the example above.

Not true - many hospitals will give you the service - uou just will have a big bill.

whork

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Re: Is this not a "Death Panel" by the govt?
« Reply #37 on: June 08, 2013, 05:33:36 AM »
Not true - many hospitals will give you the service - uou just will have a big bill.

Thats what i said.

You get threatment and afterwards they wont cover it if they can get of the hook.

Skip8282

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Re: Is this not a "Death Panel" by the govt?
« Reply #38 on: June 09, 2013, 07:13:38 AM »
All right Bears imagine this.

You check into a hospital get threatment and all of a sudden your insurance wont cover you because you failed to report you had some sort of illness as a kid.

Now try doing the same in a country where healtcare is already paid for by taxes. Nothing will be denied because the incentive isnt there like in the example above.



Not true for Obamacare.  Just because you have insurance doesn't mean a service won't be denied.

whork

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Re: Is this not a "Death Panel" by the govt?
« Reply #39 on: June 09, 2013, 07:46:38 AM »


Not true for Obamacare.  Just because you have insurance doesn't mean a service won't be denied.



No?

I thought things like preexisting conditions could not be grounds for a denial anymore. Or are you thinking about other instances im not aware of?

Skip8282

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Re: Is this not a "Death Panel" by the govt?
« Reply #40 on: June 09, 2013, 10:03:18 AM »

No?

I thought things like preexisting conditions could not be grounds for a denial anymore. Or are you thinking about other instances im not aware of?




No, you're confusing having insurance with inclusiveness of coverage.  Obamacare may help get a person on an insurance plan.  That doesn't automatically mean that whatever service you want or need is going to be covered.  It also doesn't mean that you will be able to afford the co-pays and co-insurance needed for a covered service.

For some things, they may be able to get a subsidy, for others maybe not.

In fact, there's a lot of 'maybes' for the entire thing.


MCWAY

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Re: Is this not a "Death Panel" by the govt?
« Reply #41 on: June 09, 2013, 10:15:56 AM »

Lets try again.

If a corporation can make a profit for denying you a service (Example you pay to your health insurance and they deny it when you need it on technicality) they most often will.

A government agency who gets their funds elsewhere would have less incentive to deny you a sevice like the one above.

This is all hypothetical of course and was a reply to an earlier post where someone argued something i cant even fucking remember right now.

I don't think that's how those corporations roll. They don't make profit by denying people services. At best, they cut losses.

But, the way they cut or prevent losses is either not insuring you in the first place, if you have certain conditions. Or, they charge you out the anus for their insuring you, because it's going to cost them out the anus to cover you when those conditions manifests themselves.

avxo

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Re: Is this not a "Death Panel" by the govt?
« Reply #42 on: June 10, 2013, 01:49:32 PM »
Hell yea this is a death panel.

Nonsense. Rules were put in place based on rational standards to address the issue of a limited supply of organs that vastly outpaces the demand for them, and to help ensure that the patient receiving those organs has the best chance at surviving what is a very difficult procedure.


These are tough value judgments to make.  No way to reasonably get a large amount of people to agree, IMO.

We agree there. That's a start.



Not sure what a better way forward is...though it might be better to do it state by state, then the value 'might' better align with people.  But...that's a mighty big 'might'.

I don't think this will work - especially if the organs come in one state and the recipient is in another. This is, legitimately, a case where state-by-state solutions won't necessarily work. A good, solid set of first steps to make towards addressing this issue eventually would be:

(1) promote organ donation; there is little reason for anyone to not sign up to become an organ donor.

(2) change the existing rules, making more organs available. As it stands now only the healthiest of organs can be transplanted into the "healthiest" of patients. Why not consider more organs - organs who would now not make the cut as eligible for transplantation into patients who may not, today, qualify? Sure, in doing so, the patient will be taking a risk and life expectancy will be reduced, but it will almost certainly be better than if the patient didn't receive a transplant at all.

(3) promote research into tissue bio-engineering and advanced bio-medical research more generally.

whork

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Re: Is this not a "Death Panel" by the govt?
« Reply #43 on: June 10, 2013, 02:38:34 PM »
I don't think that's how those corporations roll. They don't make profit by denying people services. At best, they cut losses.

But, the way they cut or prevent losses is either not insuring you in the first place, if you have certain conditions. Or, they charge you out the anus for their insuring you, because it's going to cost them out the anus to cover you when those conditions manifests themselves.


Thats great but what this does is giving Health Insurance to those that dont need it and those who needs it cant get it.

avxo

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Re: Is this not a "Death Panel" by the govt?
« Reply #44 on: June 10, 2013, 02:53:13 PM »
Thats great but what this does is giving Health Insurance to those that dont need it and those who needs it cant get it.

So the solution is what? Force everyone to pay to cover your asthmatic mother or your arthritic father who just can't afford to care for themselves? Why don't you pay for them if that's such a concern for you? Why do you think that what you (individually, or you the majority/plurality) get to put your hands in my wallet and take out what you want?

whork

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Re: Is this not a "Death Panel" by the govt?
« Reply #45 on: June 10, 2013, 03:07:36 PM »
So the solution is what? Force everyone to pay to cover your asthmatic mother or your arthritic father who just can't afford to care for themselves? Why don't you pay for them if that's such a concern for you? Why do you think that what you (individually, or you the majority/plurality) get to put your hands in my wallet and take out what you want?

Because you pay for them no matter what. Its just the reality of the world we live in.

You actually make my point somewhat. If you want to keep your money in your pocket they need health insurance otherwise your taxes will pay for it. Unless you dont help them at all.

Its a vicious circle.

avxo

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Re: Is this not a "Death Panel" by the govt?
« Reply #46 on: June 10, 2013, 03:18:34 PM »
Because you pay for them no matter what. Its just the reality of the world we live in.

The reality is that I'm forced to pay because I have a proverbial gun pointed at me. But that's not something inherent to the world.


You actually make my point somewhat. If you want to keep your money in your pocket they need health insurance otherwise your taxes will pay for it. Unless you dont help them at all.

I don't want to help anyone get health insurance. If it's important to you, then start a non-profit and solicit donations from others who feel the same way. Surely there's enough of you out there to bankroll a low-cost plan.


Its a vicious circle.

Yes... it is a vicious cycle. A vicious cycle where a problem is described, a solution is "conceived" and then my wallet is plundered. And it's a vicious cycle that will be broken when people like me have had enough and refuse to play along. Because really, this all hinges on people like me playing along.

Tell me, who will bankroll your universal healthcare scheme when I quit my job, and start living of the money that I have put to the side? Or when I quit my job and find the lowest job I can possible get - say, flipping burgers part-time - to make just enough money to survive but not enough for you to have any to take from me?

What will you do then?

whork

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Re: Is this not a "Death Panel" by the govt?
« Reply #47 on: June 10, 2013, 04:07:40 PM »
The reality is that I'm forced to pay because I have a proverbial gun pointed at me. But that's not something inherent to the world.


I think your philosophy collides with the state of how things/society works on this subject. Not that i disagree but its another debate



I don't want to help anyone get health insurance. If it's important to you, then start a non-profit and solicit donations from others who feel the same way. Surely there's enough of you out there to bankroll a low-cost plan.


Hell no im a cynical bastard im not here to save people or the world.


Yes... it is a vicious cycle. A vicious cycle where a problem is described, a solution is "conceived" and then my wallet is plundered. And it's a vicious cycle that will be broken when people like me have had enough and refuse to play along. Because really, this all hinges on people like me playing along.


No arguments here.


Tell me, who will bankroll your universal healthcare scheme when I quit my job, and start living of the money that I have put to the side? Or when I quit my job and find the lowest job I can possible get - say, flipping burgers part-time - to make just enough money to survive but not enough for you to have any to take from me?


Who said its a scheme? Universal healthcare paid over taxes. Everybody is covered everyone pays. And if everybody pays the price drops. Take out the middle-man and there will be more money for actual health care.



What will you do then?

i have paid 50-70% in taxes all my life and have never used any health care besides the emergency room and vaccine shots so dont throw that shit at me :)



avxo

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Re: Is this not a "Death Panel" by the govt?
« Reply #48 on: June 10, 2013, 04:15:54 PM »
Universal healthcare is a pipe dream that will never work. Universal catastrophic coverage is a whole 'nother ballgame - and one I would be OK with.

whork

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Re: Is this not a "Death Panel" by the govt?
« Reply #49 on: June 10, 2013, 04:22:41 PM »
Universal healthcare is a pipe dream that will never work. Universal catastrophic coverage is a whole 'nother ballgame - and one I would be OK with.

Maybe you are right.