Author Topic: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.  (Read 42225 times)

loco

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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #200 on: June 03, 2009, 10:14:10 AM »
Again, none of those people did it to promote the atheist agenda... Not a single one.

So one anti-abortion man murdered one abortion doctor and suddently this counts against Christianity?  But all the atheists mentioned on this board muredered millions of people in the name of their own secular ideologies and it doesn't count against atheism?  How convenient, and dishonest!   ::)

I personally believe that atheism by itself does not lead to murders, just as I believe that Christianity by itself does not lead to murders. 

Can you name anything that Jesus Christ taught by word and by example that would lead anybody to murder an abortion doctor?

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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #201 on: June 03, 2009, 10:21:08 AM »
Patients remember Dr. Tiller:  http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/06/01/patients-remember-dr-tiller/

A few blog posts and comments from Dr. Tiller’s former patients:

A Heartbreaking Choice:

Up until the moment I sat across the desk from my OB, I held out hope that he would give my son some chance to beat the odds. I couldn’t believe it when he said that there was no chance that he would live very long after he was born. Since I had not even entertained that idea, I was even less prepared for the next thing he had to say, but those words are burned into my memory forever.

“There is no one in Texas who can do this procedure. The only doctor you can go to is in Wichita, Kansas. I talked to him. He seems very nice. Here is his number.” That was it. There was nothing more he could do for us. I could barely stand up when we rode down the elevator.

Even then, I didn’t connect this doctor to the story on the news. It wasn’t until I was on the phone with them, after we went through the procedure, the schedule, the cost, and all the other details that the woman said, “I don’t know if you’re aware of this, but the doctor was shot last month.”

If I wasn’t so numb, I may have screamed, but instead it just washed over me. I couldn’t speak. She explained that there would be protesters. She may as well have been saying “blah blah blah blah.” It just didn’t sink in. This was something on the news far away in another state, not something that was part of my life.

A few days later, we were on our way. It rained the whole drive up. I told my husband to turn off the Oldies station because I didn’t want to always associate Oldies with this drive. We checked into our hotel, a chain that I will never, ever stay at again because of the memories it brings back. We drove by the clinic just to make sure we knew where it was. Seeing it at night brought us a false sense of security.

The next morning there were throngs of protesters. They had graphic posters. They yelled at us and aimed a video camera at our car. I was shaking all over as I had to show ID and go through a metal detector before I was admitted. All the time I was thinking, “How can those people be yelling at me? I don’t want to be here. I don’t have a choice. Don’t they understand?”

(Full piece here).

Another Heartbreaking Choice:

The week we spent in Kansas was one of the toughest weeks of my life, one that I will never forget, nor will I choose to forget, but through my tears of sadness, love helped us through.

We returned home just two days ago, and the pain is ever so fresh, and the memories vivid. A piece of me doesn’t want the pain to ever go away because it is one way for me to stay connected to my son. My beautiful, angelic son, Nathan Jack. Seeing him was one of the hardest things I have ever done, not being able to watch him grow up, or call me “Mommy” is something I will always grieve over, but knowing that we protected and saved him from an existence of hospital stays was our responsibility as loving parents.

We are forever grateful to the Women’s Health Center, the amazing doctor and all staff for being our heaven when we were living in hell.

And another:

I was almost 26 weeks. I showed up for my ultrasound by myself. I was scanned for almost 2 hours. This is when my life forever changed. The scan showed that her little brain was severely calcified, parts were not symmetrical and there was fluid. The doctor took me into a room to talk to me. I told her “please just tell me the truth I need to know.” The Doctor said that she had no idea what this meant but that she felt something was terribly wrong. Within two weeks her brain had gone from “normal” to massive problems. I was sent up to Genetics. The counselor told me that the genetic doctor wanted to talk to me. I requested that they wait until my husband got there. The conversation with this doctor was the same, she felt that something was terribly wrong, but they had no idea what it was. “This looks like the tip of the iceberg” we were told.

The hardest thing I’ve ever had to do in my life was to decide to terminate this pregnancy. This all happened on a Wednesday.

Friday we had to go and talk with some perinatologists. They told us that they had never seen this before and that they could not tell us what the outcome would be. We did not even get a percentage of what her life would be like. They told us that she possibly could die in utero, die shortly after birth, or be a vegetable. They told us that we could wait another two weeks and have another scan and possibly an MRI. How could I go on another day? It killed me to feel her move around inside. This was so awful.

We had another appointment with the doctor that performed the terminations. We were told that with my conditions and the lateness of the pregnancy he did not feel he could give me the care that I required. That’s when we were referred to the Women’s Clinic in Wichita, Kansas.

I was 27 weeks by this point. I was terrified. The moment I met the doctor, all of that ended. He was a wonderful and loving man. I came in on Monday and gave birth to our baby girl on Friday. We were able to hold her after, and say our goodbyes. That doctor will always be in my heart.

This happened two weeks ago and sometimes I feel like this isn’t real. I miss feeling her inside me. I miss singing or talking to her, touching my belly and have her respond. The hardest part now is that I will never get to see her smile or laugh or to watch her grow up A day does not pass that I don’t think of her. I miss her so much.

More Kansas stories here.

A comment here:

I looked at the woman as she cried about the baby she wanted so badly, & looked in horror at the films showing the cancer eating the child alive. The pain this child must be in & the cries of the parents as they don’t want to let go. Then I hear Dr. Tiller say…”You are so amazing…all the pain your baby is in & you are going to selflessly take that away. You are being strong for him. You are giving him peace he will never know.” 2 days later I cleaned & dressed that little boy before the parents viewed him. The ghastly tumor that had grown through his chest & out his spine a horrific parasite, & a stark reminder of the life he could never have. I watched this little angle at peace & I cried. For all of them. And I felt blessed to be a part of such a wonderful man, who could look in the face of utter hopelessness, & give them comfort. That child was taken home & lovingly laid to rest. That day is how I will remember Dr. Tiller. May his family find the peace he gave so openly.

Another at Balloon Juice:

In 1994 my wife and I found out that she was pregnant. The pregnancy was difficult and unusually uncomfortable but her doctor repeatedly told her things were fine. Sometime early in the 8th month my wife, an RN who at the time was working in an infertility clinic asked the Dr. she was working for what he thought of her discomfort. He examined her and said that he couldn’t be certain but thought that she might be having twins. We were thrilled and couldn’t wait to get a new sonogram that hopefully would confirm his thoughts. Two days later our joy was turned to unspeakable sadness when the new sonogram showed conjoined twins. Conjoined twins alone is not what was so difficult but the way they were joined meant that at best only one child would survive the surgery to separate them and the survivor would more than likely live a brief and painful life filled with surgery and organ transplants. We were advised that our options were to deliver into the world a child who’s life would be filled with horrible pain and suffering or fly out to Wichita Kansas and to terminate the pregnancy under the direction of Dr. George Tiller.

We made an informed decision to go to Kansas. One can only imagine the pain borne by a woman who happily carries a child for 8 months only to find out near the end of term that the children were not to be and that she had to make the decision to terminate the pregnancy and go against everything she had been taught to believe was right. This was what my wife had to do. Dr. Tiller is a true American hero. The nightmare of our decision and the aftermath was only made bearable by the warmth and compassion of Dr. Tiller and his remarkable staff. Dr. Tiller understood that this decision was the most difficult thing that a woman could ever decide and he took the time to educate us and guide us along with the other two couples who at the time were being forced to make the same decision after discovering that they too were carrying children impacted by horrible fetal anomalies. I could describe in great detail the procedures and the pain and suffering that everyone is subjected to in these situations. However, that is not the point of the post. We can all imagine that this is not something that we would wish on anyone. The point is that the pain and suffering were only mitigated by the compassion and competence of Dr. George Tiller and his staff. We are all diminished today for a host of reasons but most of all because a man of great compassion and courage has been lost to the world.

And The George Tiller I Knew at Daily Kos.

These are just a handful of stories, but they help to reveal the complexity of what Dr. Tiller did. The mainstream media has cast him as a “controversial late-term abortion provider,” which is technically accurate. But those late-term abortions he provided were for women in desperate and often tragic situations — women with health complications that made pregnancy dangerous, or women whose much-wanted pregnancies took a turn for the worst. Anti-choicers have latched onto the fact that Tiller’s clinic provided funeral services — if that’s the case, they point out, how is it not clear that Dr. Tiller was killing? In fact, those services were part of the healing process for many families who came to Dr. Tiller in one of the darkest moments of their lives, and who were making unthinkably difficult choices. It’s a tragedy that Dr. Tiller was one of only three physicians providing the late-term therapeutic abortion services that he did. It’s shameful that anti-choicers cast him as a “murderer” for helping women in need. I’ll say it again: The responsibility for George Tiller’s death surely falls on the shoulders of the person who actually pulled the trigger. But when pro-life groups did everything but give him a gun, their hands are hardly clean.

SamoanIrishman

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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #202 on: June 03, 2009, 10:23:42 AM »
like the good brain washed liberal that you are you bring religion into this...plenty of non religious ppl are against abortion...

what happend to that man is complete shit, that person should be brought to justice. I dont agree with his views or his actions but this was not the solution...

+1

Deedee

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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #203 on: June 03, 2009, 10:45:41 AM »
YES it is in cases of where the mothers life is at risk

Straw Man, it's ridiculous to think that a bunch of guys on a bodybuilding board would have a clue as to the million and one things that can go wrong in a pregnancy. These are guys who think that going on a strict diet for three months is hell and back. But that a pregnancy is an inconvenience.

These are the same guys who say that abortion is murder, but it's "okay" if rape or incest is involved. WTF. If it's murder it's murder. Who cares if your wife got raped. Or if one twin is dying in the womb and sucking the life out of the mother and the other twin. Either you play God or you don't. And if it is truly murder, they should be advocating life in the clink and/or the death penalty for anyone who wants to have an abortion. It's mostly about control of women, not really that it's murder. The OT and the Talmud pretty much indicate that God was alright with abortion and that people only being living once God has given them the breath of life.

In the case of the Tiller murder, the dude who did it obviously felt no control over his own life... his wife left him, and so he projected his own issues onto women assuming responsibility and control over their own lives. I don't think he murdered Tiller for religious reasons. It's far more visceral than that.

tu_holmes

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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #204 on: June 03, 2009, 10:56:48 AM »
So one anti-abortion man murdered one abortion doctor and suddently this counts against Christianity?  But all the atheists mentioned on this board muredered millions of people in the name of their own secular ideologies and it doesn't count against atheism? 


Yep... Cause that's the way it is. The atheists weren't pushing atheism, the religious ARE pushing their religion.

Quote

How convenient, and dishonest!   ::)


Actually, it's quite honest... The convenience is because of religion... I didn't make it so.

loco

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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #205 on: June 03, 2009, 11:04:21 AM »
Yep... Cause that's the way it is. The atheists weren't pushing atheism, the religious ARE pushing their religion.

Actually, it's quite honest... The convenience is because of religion... I didn't make it so.

Can you name anything that Jesus Christ taught by word and by example that would lead anybody to murder an abortion doctor?

tonymctones

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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #206 on: June 03, 2009, 11:07:28 AM »
ANSWER ME DAMN IT...LOL  ;D j/k but plz answer this

actually if you go back and read that was only one of the possible dates...and since at conception the process of life has begun yes there is a logical point that can be discussed...

Lets go off the electrical activity though since you seem to want something a tad more tangible...electrical activity in the brain is the determining factor of death so would it not be logical to make that the determining factor of life? again since you really have no position and no basis of logic for your postion ill go ahead again and say mine is more credible...again whats the difference between abortion and infantcide if the date you pick is merely arbitrary such as yours is?

so when does a fetus become a living being? you refuse to give me even your theory on this im not asking for a definite answer but till now all youve said is iono...this leaves the door open for infantcide, justifiable homicide etc...dont you understand? if your simply putting an arbitrary date on it i can logically apply a arbitrary date as well lets say 50 yrs ill be over in a bit to abort you  ;)


tu_holmes

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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #207 on: June 03, 2009, 11:20:19 AM »
Can you name anything that Jesus Christ taught by word and by example that would lead anybody to murder an abortion doctor?

No blaming Jesus for it at all... I don't even know if the guy existed to be honest (but that's a different thread)

However, people use their religion as an excuse.

I have never blamed Jesus for anyone's ridiculousness, but I can blame the system of religion that promotes hate against others due to differences in beliefs.

loco

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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #208 on: June 03, 2009, 11:25:47 AM »
No blaming Jesus for it at all... I don't even know if the guy existed to be honest (but that's a different thread)

However, people use their religion as an excuse.

I have never blamed Jesus for anyone's ridiculousness, but I can blame the system of religion that promotes hate against others due to differences in beliefs.

Whether Jesus Christ existed or not, his life and teachings are clearly recorded in the Bible.  So if you are going to blame religion for this one guy murdering an abortion doctor, you have to back it up.

So which one of Jesus Christ's teachings would make anybody want to murder an abortion doctor?

"Pro-life" vs. "Pro-Choice" is a political thing.  Why are you blaming religion?  This was either political or the guy was just a nut job. 

Either way, not all pro-lifers are violent, and not all pro-lifers are religious either.

Deedee

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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #209 on: June 03, 2009, 11:33:33 AM »
ANSWER ME DAMN IT...LOL  ;D j/k but plz answer this



Why don't you answer yourself. You say abortion is murder, but it's fine if someone was raped or it was a result of incest. How can that possibly be? Either it's murder or it isn't. Why does it make a difference how the child was conceived?

Then you go on to say that abolishing abortion will make women think twice about opening their legs. That sounds to me more like wanting control women, rather than really being worried about murder.

You also say that alleviating men of their responsibilities to pay for their children is part and parcel of allowing abortion, which is laughable. Back in the wayback days, before abortion was legal, the nineteen fifties, women were basically left on their own if a guy didn't want his child. There were lots of homes for unwed mothers, and the children of such relationships were considered bastards. Less than human. That's what it was like in the good old days. Was there less unprotected sex?  Hahahaha.

In our society today, men don't get off just impregnating women and running off, and abortion isn't for everyone. Would the availability of abortion or not change things for Desmond. No. Not in the least. Abolishing abortion would only mean that the rich get it, and the poor die. Or have a bunch of children. Same shit. Different century.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25559154-401,00.html

tu_holmes

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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #210 on: June 03, 2009, 11:37:23 AM »
Whether Jesus Christ existed or not, his life and teachings are clearly recorded in the Bible.  So if you are going to blame religion for this one guy murdering an abortion doctor, you have to back it up.

So which one of Jesus Christ's teachings would make anybody want to murder an abortion doctor?

"Pro-life" vs. "Pro-Choice" is a political thing.  Why are you blaming religion?  This was either political or the guy was just a nut job. 

Either way, not all pro-lifers are violent, and not all pro-lifers are religious either.

I wouldn't say it was religious if the extreme pro-lifers didn't use the religion as their reasoning for why they did it.

They all say that it's God's will... That's their excuse.

I never said all pro-lifers were violent... That's stretching.

24KT

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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #211 on: June 03, 2009, 11:37:33 AM »

"Christians, for example, were the ones who campaigned against the gladiator games in ancient Rome as well as against the slave trade in Britain and in the United States"

Of course they did! Back then you had one Christian sect smearing young Christian girls in baboon urine, then tossing them into the ring to be raped by baboons and ravaged by other wild animals. One christian sect wiping out another.

As for the Christian protests against the slave trade, get real! There were just as many so called Christians supporting it. That Christians as a whole protested against it on a humanitarian basis is BS. The desire to abolish slavery was purely economical. Britain knew it couldn't compete with the free labour of the US, so they sought to abolish it. Likewise the North was attempting to get economic leverage over the south. Compassionate grounds was the lie they used, ...the real motivation was purely political & economical.
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OzmO

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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #212 on: June 03, 2009, 11:39:53 AM »
I do this all the time, and so do other getbiggers.  How am I being obsessed for using the Search function to find previous posts, which takes only a few seconds if you know what you are doing?   :)

When you go out of your way to respond to someone else's post concerning DeeDee to point out that she's obsessed with you by searching out a post from a year ago is something that suggests obsession.  IMO.   :)

OzmO

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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #213 on: June 03, 2009, 11:49:38 AM »
I've said it before that religion has been the cause for many wars and death.  I think that's incorrect.

Religion is many times used/twisted to justify killing.  It's not religion itself in most cases.

That's what happened here.

loco

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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #214 on: June 03, 2009, 11:51:23 AM »
When you go out of your way to respond to someone else's post concerning DeeDee to point out that she's obsessed with you by searching out a post from a year ago is something that suggests obsession.  IMO.   :)

How is it going "out of your way" to use the Search function?  It really is fast and easy OzmO.  You should try it some time.  If you have problems with it, don't give up.  Give it time and once you know what you are doing you'll see how helpful, easy and fast it really is.  

As for "someone else's post concerning DeeDee", he did not see Deedee post anything for a while until she posted in response to me, arguing with me and insulting me.  :)

And that's fine.  I was just making a comment, not worth you derailing the thread and obsessing over it.  

Do you have a thing for Deedee?  Get in line, Deicide has a thing for her too.

loco

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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #215 on: June 03, 2009, 11:55:53 AM »
I've said it before that religion has been the cause for many wars and death.  I think that's incorrect.

Religion is many times used/twisted to justify killing.  It's not religion itself in most cases.

That's what happened here.

I agree OzmO! 

But it's also worth mentioning that just about anything can be used/twisted to justify killing.  Secular ideologies like Nationalism and Communism have been used to murder millions more than religion ever has.

24KT

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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #216 on: June 03, 2009, 11:58:53 AM »
You're an idiot! DeeDee doesn't post in over a year, ...and you call her obsessed?! you're twisted!  :-\
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OzmO

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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #217 on: June 03, 2009, 12:02:15 PM »
How is it going "out of your way" to use the Search function?  It really is fast and easy OzmO.  You should try it some time.  If you have problems with it, don't give up.  Give it time and once you know what you are doing you'll see how helpful, easy and fast it really is.  

As for "someone else's post concerning DeeDee", he did not see Deedee post anything for a while until she posted in response to me, arguing with me and insulting me.  :)

And that's fine.  I was just making a comment, not worth you derailing the thread and obsessing over it.  

Do you have a thing for Deedee too?  Get in line, Deicide has a thing for her too.

HEHEHEH   Classic  "redirection!"

-  Suggesting I'm the one obsessing over it
-  Suggesting I'm trying to derail the thread
-  Suggesting I have a thing for DeeDee

You searched out a post from June 2008 to respond to someone else's comment to insult her.  Suggests obsession to me.

PS:  The whole whining about derailing a thread is so old already.  Get over it.  Stop crying about it.  (not saying you are loco but many other people complain about it in a whinny way)  Discussions lead in different directions.  There's no forum law that says every thing has to be on topic.  

Was this post on topic?

I could be mistaken, but I too don't remember seeing Deedee on the Politics or Religion boards for a while, except for only the times when she responds to my posts to argue and to insult me.    :)

One time she said that she wasn't going to respond to me anymore, but she came right back and responded to my post.

 ;D

I guess she's obsessed with me, and I am not flattered about it.  :(

Deedee is not nice like STella!   :)

No.

But it doesn't bother me that it wasn't.

I agree, Stella is nicest one on the forum!

loco

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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #218 on: June 03, 2009, 12:03:01 PM »
You're an idiot! DeeDee doesn't post in over a year, ...and you call her obsessed?! you're twisted!  :-\

God bless you too, Jag!

The part about the obsession was only a joke.  Lighten up!   ::)

You're just mad because I told the truth about your Multi Level Marketing scam.   :)

loco

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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #219 on: June 03, 2009, 12:04:13 PM »
HEHEHEH   Classic  "redirection!"

-  Suggesting I'm the one obsessing over it
-  Suggesting I'm trying to derail the thread
-  Suggesting I have a thing for DeeDee

You searched out a post from June 2008 to respond to someone else's comment to insult her.  Suggests obsession to me.

PS:  The whole whining about derailing a thread is so old already.  Get over it.  Stop crying about it.  (not saying you are loco but many other people complain about it in a whinny way)  Discussions lead in different directions.  There's no forum law that says every thing has to be on topic.  

Was this post on topic?

No.

But it doesn't bother me that it wasn't.

I agree, Stella is nicest one on the forum!

Well, you are the one going on and on and on about this.    :-\

OzmO

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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #220 on: June 03, 2009, 12:05:35 PM »
I agree OzmO! 

But it's also worth mentioning that just about anything can be used/twisted to justify killing.  Secular ideologies like Nationalism and Communism have been used to murder millions more than religion ever has.

I agree that just about anything can be used to justify killing.  I don't know yet, for sure that, Secular ideologies have out murdered religion yet.

How could we ever accurately keep track from the point of recorded hsitory?  I think in the 20 century, secular ideologies have beaten religion in killing for sure.  

OzmO

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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #221 on: June 03, 2009, 12:07:44 PM »
Well, you are the one going on and on and on about this.    :-\

It takes two to tango!   ;D

You know how you and i go back and forth...   :)

loco

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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #222 on: June 03, 2009, 12:13:43 PM »
I agree that just about anything can be used to justify killing.  I don't know yet, for sure that, Secular ideologies have out murdered religion yet.

How could we ever accurately keep track from the point of recorded hsitory?  I think in the 20 century, secular ideologies have beaten religion in killing for sure.  

Historically, secular ideologies have out murdered religion, by millions.  Whether or not you trust the accuracy of history in general is another story.  If there are slight inaccuracies in the numbers, and there probably are since nothing is perfect and nothing is for sure, it would make no difference since the difference is so large.

As for times before recorded history, the human population was not nearly as large back then to match the millions murdered in the name of secular ideologies.

24KT

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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #223 on: June 03, 2009, 12:14:09 PM »
God bless you too, Jag!

The part about the obsession was only a joke.  Lighten up!   ::)

it only became a joke when you were called on it and realized what an idiot you looked like even making such an allegation.

Quote
You're just mad because I told the truth about your Multi Level Marketing scam.   :)

I'm used to haters and those who play victim. they'll always exist when it comes to MLM. Doesn't phase me.

What really irks me about you is that you are the same breed of typical evangelical zealot I so fvcking detest!
I'm sooo sick & tired of you fvckers I could just spit! you're a sick disgusting delusional vermin.
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loco

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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #224 on: June 03, 2009, 12:16:31 PM »
it only became a joke when you were called on it and realized what an idiot you looked like even making such an allegation.

I'm used to haters and those who play victim. they'll always exist when it comes to MLM. Doesn't phase me.

What really irks me about you is that you are the same breed of typical evangelical zealot I so fvcking detest!
I'm sooo sick & tired of you fvckers I could just spit! you're a sick disgusting delusional vermin.

Meltdown.   ;D

Who is the hater now?   ;)