Views of "Moderate Muslim"?

[columbusdude82]

"Yes, it bothers me that Allah would send the Arabs to kill other people, including women and children.  And it should bother me.  But I trust Allah's wisdom and justice.  Allah gave these nations many chances, many warnings, and they did not listen.  So they were judged and condemned.  Only Allah creates life and only Allah can give or take it as He sees fit.  And we humans need to watch our choices and actions as they often affect our children and our children's children."

What do y'all make of this?

[Butterbean]

I'd say I agree if Allah was proven through 100% correctly fulfilled prophecy to be God.  But he's not.

And so here is where you present your case for unfulfilled prophecy (past, present or future) of the true God Jehovah and where we will to the best of our ability answer you

(good threads and questions....thanks for your contribution here columbusdude )

[columbusdude82]

So you presume to say you can tell Muslims their God is false and yours is real? What arrogance...

[loco]

"Yes, it bothers me that Allah would send the Arabs to kill other people, including women and children.  And it should bother me.  But I trust Allah's wisdom and justice.  Allah gave these nations many chances, many warnings, and they did not listen.  So they were judged and condemned.  Only Allah creates life and only Allah can give or take it as He sees fit.  And we humans need to watch our choices and actions as they often affect our children and our children's children."

What do y'all make of this?

I see you are quoting me, except you altered my words to fit your agenda.  Nice!

[columbusdude82]

I quoted you on the previous thread. I also quoted there (as here) replacing the noun "God" with "Allah," and "Israel" with "the Arabs."

Doesn't sound as cool now, does it?

[loco]

I quoted you on the previous thread. I also quoted there (as here) replacing the noun "God" with "Allah," and "Israel" with "the Arabs."

Doesn't sound as cool now, does it?

Doesn't sound cool now, doesn't sound cool ever.  God told Israel to destroy certain evil nations then.  That was then.  It does not apply to your example.  The Bible does not teach anyone to sacrifice children, as STella and I just pointed out.  You took verses out of context and distorted their meaning on purpose to show otherwise.

Notice that God never commanded Jews to force their religion on other nations, to conquer and convert them by force.  Notice Jesus never told his disciples to force Christianity on anybody. 

Notice that neither Jews nor Christians are flying planes into buildings in the name of God.  Notice there are no Jewish or Christian suicide bombers.

So your comparisons are meaningless. 

Faith in God is what drives Jews and Christians today to do good, to help those in need.  I already showed you that the Bible teaches us to do good, but you instead are trying to "teach" me that I'm wrong, that the Bible is telling me instead to sacrifice my children, to fly planes into buildings and to blow myself up to kill other people.  If I didn't know better, I would say that you are trying very hard to convert and turn Jews and Christians into murderers.

[columbusdude82]

I take it you don't agree with that quote from the hypothetical "moderate Muslim" then?

(PS: God does sanction the killing of disobedient children. )

[Butterbean]

So you presume to say you can tell Muslims their God is false and yours is real?

Yes. 

But I'm willing to listen if you can present the case where Islamic prophecies that were foretold hundreds and thousands of years before have been fulfilled 100%.  In addition, please present some as yet unfulfilled Islamic prophecy as I am curious about that too.

Doesn't sound cool now, doesn't sound cool ever.  God told Israel to destroy certain evil nations then.  That was then.  It does not apply to your example.  The Bible does not teach anyone to sacrifice children, as STella and I just pointed out.  You took verses out of context and distorted their meaning on purpose to show otherwise.

Notice that God never commanded Jews to force their religion on other nations, to conquer and convert them by force.  Notice Jesus never told his disciples to force Christianity on anybody. 

Notice that neither Jews nor Christians are flying planes into buildings in the name of God.  Notice there are no Jewish or Christian suicide bombers.

So your comparisons are meaningless. 

Faith in God is what drives Jews and Christians today to do good, to help those in need.  I already showed you that the Bible teaches us to do good, but you instead are trying to "teach" me that I'm wrong, that the Bible is telling me instead to sacrifice my children, to fly planes into buildings and to blow myself up to kill other people. 

agree

[Colossus_500]

Doesn't sound cool now, doesn't sound cool ever.  God told Israel to destroy certain evil nations then.  That was then.  It does not apply to your example.  The Bible does not teach anyone to sacrifice children, as STella and I just pointed out.  You took verses out of context and distorted their meaning on purpose to show otherwise.

Notice that God never commanded Jews to force their religion on other nations, to conquer and convert them by force.  Notice Jesus never told his disciples to force Christianity on anybody. 

Notice that neither Jews nor Christians are flying planes into buildings in the name of God.  Notice there are no Jewish or Christian suicide bombers.

So your comparisons are meaningless. 

Faith in God is what drives Jews and Christians today to do good, to help those in need.  I already showed you that the Bible teaches us to do good, but you instead are trying to "teach" me that I'm wrong, that the Bible is telling me instead to sacrifice my children, to fly planes into buildings and to blow myself up to kill other people.  If I didn't know better, I would say that you are trying very hard to convert and turn Jews and Christians into murderers.

Good post, Loco. 

[loco]

Good post, Loco. 

Thanks, Colossus_500!   

[loco]

So you presume to say you can tell Muslims their God is false and yours is real? What arrogance...

Yes. 

That's it, STella!  Just boldly tell it like it is, without apologies.  You have balls...well, you know what I mean.   

columbusdude82,
It is not arrogance if STella is simply telling the truth in love to save souls. 

Nor would it be arrogance if you were living in a town at the foot of a "dormant" volcano and STella were a an expert on volcanos who knew this volcano was about to erupt any day and was telling you that evacuating would be your salvation, and that staying would mean your certain death.

It is not STella saying that Jesus is the only way.  It was Jesus who said it.  And Jesus did not teach his followers to force this belief on anyone, but simply to tell others, in love.  Any Christian not doing so is not following Jesus Christ's teaching.

John 14:6
"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

[columbusdude82]

You really do claim that you may presume to tell Muslims that their god is false and yours is real?

What evidence do you base your certainty on? Prophecy? For every prophecy you claim has been fulfilled, either a Bible scholar will say you are misinterpreting the original text, or the prophecy was so superfluous it would have happened any way, or the original meaning has been lost in translation, or the Muslims can jump right back at you with a quote from their Koran.

As far as I know, the Koran isn't really big on prophecy (but I may be wrong).

[loco]

You really do claim that you may presume to tell Muslims that their god is false and yours is real?

What evidence do you base your certainty on? Prophecy? For every prophecy you claim has been fulfilled, either a Bible scholar will say you are misinterpreting the original text, or the prophecy was so superfluous it would have happened any way, or the original meaning has been lost in translation, or the Muslims can jump right back at you with a quote from their Koran.

As far as I know, the Koran isn't really big on prophecy (but I may be wrong).

We could start here:

I know that the Book of Mormon is a clear forgery, and the Koran is a plagiarism of the previous two monotheisms

[columbusdude82]

Hahaha way to dodge the point. I believe all gods are false, and magic doesn't really happen. I also believe that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Rock on!

[Butterbean]

You really do claim that you may presume to tell Muslims that their god is false and yours is real?

What evidence do you base your certainty on? Prophecy?

Yes, personally that was the "clincher" for me.

For every prophecy you claim has been fulfilled, either a Bible scholar will say you are misinterpreting the original text, or the prophecy was so superfluous it would have happened any way, or the original meaning has been lost in translation,

I suppose this could be true concerning one particular prophecy on it's own, but I don't believe they would be able to refute the combination of prophecies concerning Christ birth, life and death as well (not to mention prophecies concerning Israel).  They stand together and support each other. 

, or the Muslims can jump right back at you with a quote from their Koran.

As far as I know, the Koran isn't really big on prophecy (but I may be wrong).

Do you think it's possible you may be wrong about some other stuff too?

[OzmO]

Stella,

Do you believe it's far better to believe in something even though you don't have concrete proof than to doubt everything and believe in nothing?

[columbusdude82]

And all the prophecies that never materialized? Presumably the hits count but the misses don't?

[Butterbean]

Stella,

Do you believe it's far better to believe in something even though you don't have concrete proof than to doubt everything and believe in nothing?

I've never thought about it.  I suppose it would be easier to doubt everything and not study possibilities and believe in nothing. 

But is it better?  Maybe for some people and maybe not for some. 

For instance an example would be a person involved in a belief system that thinks sex w/children is desirable or acceptable.  It would be better if they believed in nothing.
 
And then let's say someone believes they will be reincarnated as a dung beetle if they live their life in a bad way.  I don't believe in reincarnation but if they aren't going to accept Christ is it better they behave themself by believing they'll eat poop in their next life?  Sure.


I think it depends on the person and the situation on what is "better."

[Butterbean]

And all the prophecies that never materialized? Presumably the hits count but the misses don't?

Of course there are some that pertain to the future, but which ones do you mean? 

[OzmO]

I've never thought about it.  I suppose it would be easier to doubt everything and not study possibilities and believe in nothing. 

But is it better?  Maybe for some people and maybe not for some. 

For instance an example would be a person involved in a belief system that thinks sex w/children is desirable or acceptable.  It would be better if they believed in nothing.
 
And then let's say someone believes they will be reincarnated as a dung beetle if they live their life in a bad way.  I don't believe in reincarnation but if they aren't going to accept Christ is it better they behave themself by believing they'll eat poop in their next life?  Sure.


I think it depends on the person and the situation on what is "better."

I was asking that as it relates to believing in a higher power whether it be God, Allah, or Zeus and the dancing Star Fires.  Not as it relates to sex with children.

[Butterbean]

I was asking that as it relates to believing in a higher power whether it be God, Allah, or Zeus and the dancing Star Fires.  Not as it relates to sex with children.

OK thanks for clarifying. 


I'd say for the ones that believe in the truth it is far better.  For the ones that don't believe in the truth it makes no difference eternity-wise.



BTW, what are dancing Star Fires? 

[JOHN MATRIX]

goddamit, what ever happened to ZEUS!!!! when did you guys all forget about him and start worshipping these false, current-fad gods???