Let's talk about IFBB judging!

[swilkins1984]

What if the top 10 physiques were filmed in HD quality 1080p so after PJ the judges could watch it before making their decision for the best at PJ?   Random thought

[Chick]

Anyone knows that the results of the first 2 rounds where very important for the whole competition.

So, there are 11 Judges....9 from the US and 2 from Britain judging the first 2 rounds. The message is very clear, "when you are a Bodybuilder east of London you`re not in a good postion".
Tell me what will happen, when the next Mr. Olympia will be judged by 1 judge from the US, 1 from Britain, and 9 from the rest of the world ? (i know it never gonna happen...).

So, who do you believe was wronged and placed poorly that was "east of London"?

What would happen is Paco Batista would be Mr. Olympia...!

[Trev]

So, who do you believe was wronged and placed poorly that was "east of London"?

What would happen is Paco Batista would be Mr. Olympia...!

Hmmmmmm, Maybe the response will include the name WOLFE !! 

[Chick]

Hmmmmmm, Maybe the response will include the name WOLFE !! 

Gimme a break, he was tied for 16th last year...5th this year. I would have personally had him in 4th ahead of Ronnie...but thats about it. I'm a big Wolf fan and believe with one more year of improvements, he'll be contending for th title.

[Trev]

Gimme a break, he was tied for 16th last year...5th this year. I would have personally had him in 4th ahead of Ronnie...but thats about it. I'm a big Wolf fan and believe with one more year of improvements, he'll be contending for th title.

    That was one funny post, well done 

[Colossus_1986]

Gimme a break, he was tied for 16th last year...5th this year. I would have personally had him in 4th ahead of Ronnie...but thats about it. I'm a big Wolf fan and believe with one more year of improvements, he'll be contending for th title.

agreed.

16 to 4th / 5th is an amazing jump.

given the size of Vic, Jay and Dexter's overall balance top he's not a real threat just yet at the "O"

where do you think he will place this upcoming ARNOLD CLASSIC, should he choose to do it?

[Trev]

agreed.

16 to 4th / 5th is an amazing jump.

given the size of Vic, Jay and Dexter's overall balance top he's not a real threat just yet at the "O"

where do you think he will place this upcoming ARNOLD CLASSIC, should he choose to do it?

IF he does it, he should walk it - He should lie low and only do the 'O' next year though to create some drama and buzz ....

[NarcissisticDeity]

Gimme a break, he was tied for 16th last year...5th this year. I would have personally had him in 4th ahead of Ronnie...but thats about it. I'm a big Wolf fan and believe with one more year of improvements, he'll be contending for th title.

Great post ! this echo's my sentiments exactly ! I mean everybody is excited about Wolf and thats all good but he wasn't winning the Olympia this year , with improvements sure but he still has work to do.

[Trev]

Great post ! this echo's my sentiments exactly ! I mean everybody is excited about Wolf and thats all good but he wasn't winning the Olympia this year , with improvements sure but he still has work to do.

The improvement was incredible, but the bottom line is that the top guys were off this year and thus he did fit more of the criteria than anyone else on stage. If all were judges fairly, he would have won ...

[NarcissisticDeity]

The improvement was incredible, but the bottom line is that the top guys were off this year and thus he did fit more of the criteria than anyone else on stage. If all were judges fairly, he would have won ...

he didn't fit more of the criteria Dexter did in fact , Wolf needs improvements before he claims the top spot .

[Riddick]

Milos, I love your posts. But they are too damn LONG sometimes. Hell, I got limited time at work and your posts are liable to get me busted by my boss!

[HowieW]

This is some very intersting and mostly constructive dialogue.
However, I really wonder if the world of bodybuilding wants the pro and top amatuer contests to fully fllow and enforce all of the current judging standards and written established rules?
I believe this would include actual enforcement of the rules on banned substances, aka real drug testing.
On the one hand everyone wants fair , competent judging where the judges look at the physiques on stage in an objective ,competent manner. On the other hand NOBODY seems to care about the rules that govern how the actual physiques were developed.

This is like being very strict about making every ballpark uniform in baseball , so that every homerun goes the same minimum distance, but looking the other way about the bat the player uses and allowing everything from wood, to aluminum to tennis rackets.

Let us make sure the bodybuilders all follow the established , written rules on the subtances they use to prepare their physiques for contests. Then , we can demand the judging be fair and objective.
Overall, from the judging to what bodybuilders use, is a virtual "free for all" with no real set and enforced standard.

[mrusa85]

Does anyone know of a contest (in any bodybuilding federation) that could be used as an example where everyone agreed that the judging was great and all judging standards could be based on that one contest from now on because the judges did such a great job? I surely can't think of one. If anyone else can, let the rest of know.

[Milos_Sarcev]

Gimme a break, he was tied for 16th last year...5th this year. I would have personally had him in 4th ahead of Ronnie...but thats about it. I'm a big Wolf fan and believe with one more year of improvements, he'll be contending for th title.

How would you place guys at the O?

I mean if you use your judging standard without considering "political musts"?

[HowieW]

How would you place guys at the O?

I mean if you use your judging standard without considering "political musts"?

Milos, I am NOT trying to be a "smart ass" and have a huge amount of respect for you and your knowledge, etc.
But, I was curious if you felt that the bodybuilders should also follow the established rules of the IFBB along with the judges, to the letter?  Thanks for your feedback.
I saw you guest pose a few years back in New Orleans, comming off the leg injury, you looked incredible and posed with style and grace.

[Milos_Sarcev]

 POST #1  on www.bodybuilding.com
Originally Posted by KRN-GOOKX891
if u were a judge wat would've been ur top ten?




1/2/3- Dennis Wolf
1/2/3- Victor Martinez
1/2/3- Dexter Jackson

I would really have to see them in direct comparison to be able to judge with absolute certainty - but these guys were top three

4/5 - Johnnie Jackson
4/5 - Melvin Anthony

6/7 - Gustavo Badell
6/7 - Jay Cutler

8 - Ronnie Coleman

9/10/11 - Hidetada Yamagishi
9/10/11 - Ronnie Rockel
9/10/11 - David Henry

12 - Darrem Charles

13- Silvio Samuel

etc...

And I base this placing on PHYSIQUES ONLY - not politics...And when I have a time I could elaborate how and why I placed EACH AND EVERY COMPETITOR...




POST#2

 Posted by TheGame76
The only thing that really sticks out to me is Hidetatada up in 9/10/11 and Silvio all the way down in 13th. Could you please explain that one?


Yes, very much so...and please don't forget that I trained both of them for few months ON DAILY BASES and saw them pose next to each other countless number of times...

Silvio is also PHENOMENAL BODYBUILDER BY ALL MEANS and me putting him LOWER than where he placed is absolutely NOT from any vendetta (what many would think...)

I think he considerably worsened his balance - and his legs are now really overpowering his upper body in many poses...
His back is also considerably smaller and somewhat softer than earlier this year...and that could be said for the rest of his upper body as well.

Look at the photos from the Ironman, Sacramento, Arnold Classic and compare it to Europa show (which he won) and Olympia...

When he lifts his arms up (front and back double biceps pose) it is clearly visible how small is his torso in comparison to his legs...+ what is surprising - his great arms don't look to impressive once he lifts them up...
What seems to be phenomenal arm (in down position) becomes below average arm when is in double biceps pose...(Contrary to Hide's who's arms are becoming incredible...)

So :
#1 - balance issue (legs too big for his upper body)
#2 - torso quite small/ somewhat narrow
#3 - calves need much work
#4 - lifted arms - not as impressive
#5 - lat spread - not as wide
#6 - posing while improved still NOT at professional level
#7 - still making "mistakes" of letting his stomach out on stage (occasionally enough to be photographed with his stomach out.../see some comparison photos on getbig or my site...)

to name the few...
Now, Hide is not perfect either (nobody is perfect...except me - off course...but that is another story...) but he was more muscular, thicker, wider (yes wider even though Hide is not particularly wide), fuller...with better stage presence, presentation, posing...

Symmetry round:
FRONT, both sides and rear relax pose - Balance (Hide), Shape (Silvio), Conditioning (tie), Muscularity (Hide), Presentation (Hide)


Front double biceps: Hide

Rear double biceps: Hide

Front lat spread: some advantages Silvio...some Hide (we can analyze deeply)

Rear lat spread:some advantages Silvio...some Hide (we can analyze deeply)


Side chest: Hide (Silvio is good in this pose - but overall impression goes to Hide...and I am talking about EVERY ASPECT of bodybuilding I am considering when judging)


Side triceps: same as above


Abs and thighs: Silvio


Most muscular: close


Posing routine: Hide

[knny187]

Mishko shouldn't complain about the judging.....


he likes placing where he has over the course of years...why change it now?

[lonewolf]

Great post Milos and SO true. It doesn't matter how many judges are judging, they just have to follow set guidelines. I think politics and money rule these days as with every other sport. The panel should consist of respected ex pros NOT a line up of guys who have never lifted a weight in their life - That way, they can respect the athletes and judge accordingly.

Have to disagree with you on having ex pros as judges. I sat on IFBB judging panels for 25 years,and the worst judges were former champions. They had a very hard time seperating themselves and their own body types from what they were supposed to be evaluating on stage. Most of their placings were so bad they were not used again.

[dearth]

Let's continue to live in the past - that's a great idea. You're really going to reference the PDI as a defense? HAHA

For most IFBB/NPC promoters it is NOT their full-time job.

lift studios hugging the nuts of the Manion/weiders = great surprise!

[Vince B]

The more I think about it.....let's not talk about IFBB judging.

[Armstrong]

I think judging should be done by athlets...

problem with having athletes judge is that they just vote for their friends. is dorian still a judge?

[Hedgehog]

Shawn Ray had this one pretty right way back when he and Demilia went at it.

Rotate the judges.




And more comparisons is better nonetheless.

I dunno why it didn't worked out at the Mr O, but it seemed to work just fine earlier on in the year, which was a nice victory for Cicherillo IMO, he seems to be behind getting that done.

But at the O, it was all gone.



The truth was that, while Wolf may have had some weaknesses, he totally blew Cutler off the stage, that was evident when he chased Cutler down during posedown.

Also, when you put pics side by side, properly proportions.

[FreedomFighter]

does Jay believes that he deserve to be MR.O???

[Chick]

Shawn Ray had this one pretty right way back when he and Demilia went at it.

Rotate the judges.




And more comparisons is better nonetheless.

I dunno why it didn't worked out at the Mr O, but it seemed to work just fine earlier on in the year, which was a nice victory for Cicherillo IMO, he seems to be behind getting that done.

But at the O, it was all gone.



The truth was that, while Wolf may have had some weaknesses, he totally blew Cutler off the stage, that was evident when he chased Cutler down during posedown.

Also, when you put pics side by side, properly proportions.

It wasn't missing at the O...the only callout I wanted to see but didn't was Wolf against Jay...Other than that, I thought they compared the guys pretty well....I would have also liked a few "fan friendly" callouts...Melvin against JOJ/ Darrem, QT vs Silvio, etc....

[DK II]

POST #1  on www.bodybuilding.com
Originally Posted by KRN-GOOKX891
if u were a judge wat would've been ur top ten?




1/2/3- Dennis Wolf
1/2/3- Victor Martinez
1/2/3- Dexter Jackson

I would really have to see them in direct comparison to be able to judge with absolute certainty - but these guys were top three

4/5 - Johnnie Jackson
4/5 - Melvin Anthony

6/7 - Gustavo Badell
6/7 - Jay Cutler

8 - Ronnie Coleman

9/10/11 - Hidetada Yamagishi
9/10/11 - Ronnie Rockel
9/10/11 - David Henry

12 - Darrem Charles

13- Silvio Samuel

etc...

And I base this placing on PHYSIQUES ONLY - not politics...And when I have a time I could elaborate how and why I placed EACH AND EVERY COMPETITOR...




POST#2

 Posted by TheGame76
The only thing that really sticks out to me is Hidetatada up in 9/10/11 and Silvio all the way down in 13th. Could you please explain that one?


Yes, very much so...and please don't forget that I trained both of them for few months ON DAILY BASES and saw them pose next to each other countless number of times...

Silvio is also PHENOMENAL BODYBUILDER BY ALL MEANS and me putting him LOWER than where he placed is absolutely NOT from any vendetta (what many would think...)

I think he considerably worsened his balance - and his legs are now really overpowering his upper body in many poses...
His back is also considerably smaller and somewhat softer than earlier this year...and that could be said for the rest of his upper body as well.

Look at the photos from the Ironman, Sacramento, Arnold Classic and compare it to Europa show (which he won) and Olympia...

When he lifts his arms up (front and back double biceps pose) it is clearly visible how small is his torso in comparison to his legs...+ what is surprising - his great arms don't look to impressive once he lifts them up...
What seems to be phenomenal arm (in down position) becomes below average arm when is in double biceps pose...(Contrary to Hide's who's arms are becoming incredible...)

So :
#1 - balance issue (legs too big for his upper body)
#2 - torso quite small/ somewhat narrow
#3 - calves need much work
#4 - lifted arms - not as impressive
#5 - lat spread - not as wide
#6 - posing while improved still NOT at professional level
#7 - still making "mistakes" of letting his stomach out on stage (occasionally enough to be photographed with his stomach out.../see some comparison photos on getbig or my site...)

to name the few...
Now, Hide is not perfect either (nobody is perfect...except me - off course...but that is another story...) but he was more muscular, thicker, wider (yes wider even though Hide is not particularly wide), fuller...with better stage presence, presentation, posing...

Symmetry round:
FRONT, both sides and rear relax pose - Balance (Hide), Shape (Silvio), Conditioning (tie), Muscularity (Hide), Presentation (Hide)


Front double biceps: Hide

Rear double biceps: Hide

Front lat spread: some advantages Silvio...some Hide (we can analyze deeply)

Rear lat spread:some advantages Silvio...some Hide (we can analyze deeply)


Side chest: Hide (Silvio is good in this pose - but overall impression goes to Hide...and I am talking about EVERY ASPECT of bodybuilding I am considering when judging)


Side triceps: same as above


Abs and thighs: Silvio


Most muscular: close


Posing routine: Hide

good post.

sorry for the long quote.