Author Topic: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?  (Read 3696 times)

magikusar

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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #50 on: December 05, 2012, 11:23:59 PM »
They CAN get better teachers.  They CAN have better standards.  But they have to pay MORE money in order to get higher quality candidates.

I have an MBA, I have 7 years teaching experience, I have some real world experience - I was an excellent teacher back in 2004/2005 when I left, and I'd be a stellar teacher today.  But would I want to work 45 to 50 hours a week for $35,000?   Get up at 6 am, deal with all that stress, being away from home 10 hours a day, driving to work, wearing a tie, and dealing with all that stress?   I work in my undies, I'm on getbig at 12;52 am :)  I plan on sleeping in tomorrow.  Work a while, then have fun.

Now, if a guy like me, MBA and lots of experience, was offered $127k a year to teach... you bet I'd do it!  And I'd do a stellar job.  Wear a tie, work 55 hours, and my students would be VERY prepared for real life.   It'd take a LOT of work for a high quality candidate like me - worth it at 127k, but not worth it at 35,000.

If they want to change the system, then teachers need to be paid a lot more to get better candidates.  Won't happen.

I think the pay is way too high.

esp when factor in health benefits

problem is people think they are entitled to money and promotions without producing anything

education system has 20x the money it needs but its all sucked up with green inflated building prices and phd in education losers who think they deserve 300k salary

Roger Bacon

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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #51 on: December 06, 2012, 12:04:39 AM »
At least you remember what your middle school experience was like. It has been so long since I was in middle school, I barely remember it. I have a couple of grade school and high school memories....some good and some less so.

I only remember three of my teachers. When I was in the 3rd grade, I lived in Michigan with cousins who had a farm. At the edge of their farm was a one room brick school house staffed by one teacher for about twenty of us kids who ranged in age and grade level. She was like our daytime mom who did everything from teaching us our lessons to making sure we ate our lunch and bandaging our skinned knees after recess which she'd also monitor. In high school, I very much enjoyed my drama teacher Robert Ely and my art teacher who submitted some of my art work to Art Center in Los Angeles, CA, which resulted in my getting a special summer scholarship there.

That's cool, my 6th grade teacher was one of the smartest most amazing people I've ever known.

magikusar

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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #52 on: December 06, 2012, 01:02:08 AM »
forget charter schools which are controlled too much by government

try this:

take budget for a 1500 child school

give it to a corp without restriction

say you have to graduate 1500 kids with good grades and help them get job or college entrance

go!

then make reality show of results

whork

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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #53 on: December 06, 2012, 05:03:31 AM »
Telling impressionable kids that rich people are evil is blatant indoctrination anyway you define it. You have kids who's parents are rich now thinking 'daddy is bad" because he is rich. You have kids that will grow up thinking it's wrong to be wealthy, how wrong is that? Seriously, what the hell is the matter with you people? Settling for the status quo might be your thing but to kill a kids dreams who might be surrounded by people who know what it's like to earn what ever their heart desires is flat out WRONG. Did anyone bother to ask Ed Asner how much he has made? He's filthy rich. Gimme a freaking break!

This kind of indoctrination does nothing but promote a lazy society.

Well if they fell so bad about being rich why not give their money away?

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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #54 on: December 06, 2012, 11:10:55 AM »
Well if they fell so bad about being rich why not give their money away?

Did you read what I wrote? I said they're trying to make the kids feel bad by demonizing their parents. I guarantee that wealthy give away plenty of money. They just don't want it stolen from them...like the government is trying to do. You come off as someone who has no ambition to get ahead financially but rather depend on others to "bail" you out if you get in trouble. You don't get it. The "rich" owe you nothing beyond paying whats legally owed.

whork

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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #55 on: December 06, 2012, 11:17:25 AM »
Did you read what I wrote? I said they're trying to make the kids feel bad by demonizing their parents. I guarantee that wealthy give away plenty of money. They just don't want it stolen from them...like the government is trying to do. You come off as someone who has no ambition to get ahead financially but rather depend on others to "bail" you out if you get in trouble. You don't get it. The "rich" owe you nothing beyond paying whats legally owed.

Well if the kids feel bad about the demonizing of their parents they can always comfort themselves with the fact they got dinner that day, some people doesnt.

Your whining on behalf of rich people is sickening.

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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #56 on: December 06, 2012, 11:28:48 AM »
Well if the kids feel bad about the demonizing of their parents they can always comfort themselves with the fact they got dinner that day, some people doesnt.

Your whining on behalf of rich people is sickening.

And you making excuses for poor people who DO NOT want to fend for themselves and complain about it repulses me.

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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #57 on: December 06, 2012, 11:46:15 AM »
I think the pay is way too high.

esp when factor in health benefits

problem is people think they are entitled to money and promotions without producing anything

education system has 20x the money it needs but its all sucked up with green inflated building prices and phd in education losers who think they deserve 300k salary

in any society, a field will enjoy a quality of employees that matches the pay.

If CEO paid $10k a year, nobody would do it.
Since CEO pays millions a year, you get the smartest, shrewdest, boldest people in society rising to that job.

If McDonalds paid $100k per year, competition would be very high for the job.
The strongest, fastest, smartest, best looking people would apply for the job.

if they cut teacher pay, then quality of teachers will get WORSE.

whork

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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #58 on: December 06, 2012, 12:41:46 PM »
And you making excuses for poor people who DO NOT want to fend for themselves and complain about it repulses me.

Where do you see an excuse towards poor people?

Is it your argument that all people who are not rich is that way by choice?

Emmortal

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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #59 on: December 06, 2012, 12:42:18 PM »
Performance based pay for teachers
Get rid of teaching for testing
Get rid of no child left behind
Get rid of the Dept of Education
Voucher programs in every state
Get rid of teachers unions

Done.

whork

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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #60 on: December 06, 2012, 12:50:01 PM »
in any society, a field will enjoy a quality of employees that matches the pay.

If CEO paid $10k a year, nobody would do it.
Since CEO pays millions a year, you get the smartest, shrewdest, boldest people in society rising to that job.

If McDonalds paid $100k per year, competition would be very high for the job.
The strongest, fastest, smartest, best looking people would apply for the job.

if they cut teacher pay, then quality of teachers will get WORSE.

Thread closed.

Primemuscle

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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #61 on: December 06, 2012, 02:01:01 PM »
And you making excuses for poor people who DO NOT want to fend for themselves and complain about it repulses me.

It is interesting to ponder the dynamic here. You being a coach, unless you won the lottery, have another job with a high income, come from a wealthy family or your wife makes a lot of money, I suspect you aren't in the top 1%....probably far from it. I have noticed that there seem to be a goodly number of middle and low income folks who seem to want to champion the case for the super wealthy some of whom are hanging on to their money like King Midas. I find this fascinating.

When I was canvassing for political candidates I supported in the election last month, I found it interesting that many of the Republican houses appeared to be at the low end of the financial spectrum for the neighborhood I was in. Some of these homes were littered with broken cars and various other castoffs in the front of the property, with a Romney sign sticking out of the mess or a Romney banner across the front of their house. I don't get it. It seems like a case of the pot calling the kettle black....people who seem to be at poverty's doorstep, complaining about other disadvantaged folks while embracing the propaganda of the rich.

I like to believe I am a "middle of the road" kinda of guy. I usually make every attempt to look at things from various perspectives. This makes sense to me because I am neither wealthy nor poor. I have never received public assistance, although I was broke once when I was 18 years old and had to ask my aunt to help me out (does this count?). When I worked, I made decent money and as a retired person I can pay my bills, what few I have, and still enjoy a few comforts or luxuries, but I am not going to purchase a Jag or take a cruise around the world anytime soon. I have friends and family who are very well off (my aunt was) and I have a sister who is barely scraping by and whose rent I paid this month because she couldn't. I doubt I am unique with regards to personally knowing people from all walks of life, both rich and poor.

There are and probably always have been folk who would rather scam the system or even stand on a freeway on ramp looking pathetic while panhandling for a living. There have always been people who spend much of their lives living in luxury either as a result of their own efforts or those of their forefathers. And there will always be folks that go from wealthy to poor and vice versa. So what I don't really get is how some folks seem to wear blinders when it comes to the rest of the world. They seem to make any attempt to put themselves in others shoes, as it were. Rather they spend a lot of time criticizing others and finding ways to prove their foregone conclusions right. To me that is like sinking in quicksand.

So as to not go completely off topic here, I also find it interesting that some folks who seem to be neither parents of students nor educators are so critical of education and apparently, willing to throw the baby out with the bath water, as it were. Anyone who has worked in a school around students and either as a teacher or in support roles knows there are problems with the system. They also should know that all those problems are not the caused by the public education system or our government. As has been pointed out here, some of the challenges education faces are a direct result of societal changes, such as absentee parents and the tendency for many people and children today to not take responsibility for their own actions. Additionally, there are problems with education which are a direct result of underfunding. I don't agree that the educational system is broken, but I can accept that it is changing and not always for the better. Just remember, for every negative horror story there are many positive tales to tell about successful students and educators.

whork

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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #62 on: December 06, 2012, 02:42:59 PM »
You are right on the money with the "crusader for the rich" part.

Why do they do this? Its not logical.
 Brainwash?
Or something deeper maybe childhood trauma causing a bizarre Stockholm syndrome effect?

magikusar

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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #63 on: December 06, 2012, 03:02:43 PM »
What you guys miss is that many americans make it on achievement and ability.

Being better than the competition.

out working and out prodcing them

not because of a rich dad

there are zillions of individuals, me included, who simply kick ass and are awesome and enjoy what they do and produce

this is of course despite all the socialist blockage

men of ability exist

most men can do it, but most are too lazy or looking to blame of for exuses

Primemuscle

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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #64 on: December 06, 2012, 03:45:25 PM »
What you guys miss is that many americans make it on achievement and ability.

Being better than the competition.

out working and out prodcing them

not because of a rich dad

there are zillions of individuals, me included, who simply kick ass and are awesome and enjoy what they do and produce

this is of course despite all the socialist blockage

men of ability exist

most men can do it, but most are too lazy or looking to blame of for exuses


If you are referring to my post, I missed nothing. In fact, I covered all the bases. Maybe you should read it again.

Me too; I kick ass, am awesome and I enjoy what I am doing. The difference is I don't usually see a need to brag about it to a bunch of folks who can't prove or disprove my good fortune. In your case, I am willing to make an exception.  :D

Yes that is right, good fortune because a lot of people are awesome and kick ass and yet still struggle financially. Luck is involved in success too.

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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #65 on: December 07, 2012, 07:47:03 PM »
???

I only had one good teacher in my Public School career.  :-X

The rest were dumber than the students, or just didn't give a fuck.


Show on Frontline about this right now.

Public Schools are failing because the powers that be want them to fail.

w

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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #66 on: December 07, 2012, 07:49:07 PM »
Because students are taught what to think and not how to think.     


BINGO!!!
w

Primemuscle

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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #67 on: December 07, 2012, 07:56:11 PM »
Public Schools are failing because the powers that be want them to fail.



The powers that be? Who would that be and why would they want schools to fail?

Primemuscle

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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #68 on: December 07, 2012, 08:24:58 PM »
I think the pay is way too high.

esp when factor in health benefits

problem is people think they are entitled to money and promotions without producing anything

education system has 20x the money it needs but its all sucked up with green inflated building prices and phd in education losers who think they deserve 300k salary

Brilliant! (not really). Many people agree that given the education required to be a teacher and the resulting pay scale, most graduates would be better off using their education towards a position in some other profession and many do. Even in the current financial climate, there is a shortage of qualified teachers. If teachers are so overcompensated, why is it increasingly hard to hire good teachers?

The starting salary for a teacher is about $33,000 a year. Add benefits and the total cost of a teacher to a school district is probably around $44,000. This is hardly big money.

In Oregon school districts have to pass bonds to build schools. In the event you don't know how a bond works, I will explain. A bond is put on the ballot and all the people who live in that district and who are registered to vote, either vote for or against it. If it passes, the bond increases property taxes for the duration of the bond. Bonds are presented with a specific dollar amount and a time frame. Schools are not built or remodeled using money out of operating expenses which come from a combination of property tax and state funding.

Personally, I think you enjoy making outrageous statements to get attention. Unfortunately for you, they usually only serve to example your ignorance on a variety of topics.

Note: The above is not a criticism so much as just me just stating the obvious about you.

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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #69 on: December 07, 2012, 10:23:37 PM »
It is interesting to ponder the dynamic here. You being a coach, unless you won the lottery, have another job with a high income, come from a wealthy family or your wife makes a lot of money, I suspect you aren't in the top 1%....probably far from it. I have noticed that there seem to be a goodly number of middle and low income folks who seem to want to champion the case for the super wealthy some of whom are hanging on to their money like King Midas. I find this fascinating.

When I was canvassing for political candidates I supported in the election last month, I found it interesting that many of the Republican houses appeared to be at the low end of the financial spectrum for the neighborhood I was in. Some of these homes were littered with broken cars and various other castoffs in the front of the property, with a Romney sign sticking out of the mess or a Romney banner across the front of their house. I don't get it. It seems like a case of the pot calling the kettle black....people who seem to be at poverty's doorstep, complaining about other disadvantaged folks while embracing the propaganda of the rich.

I like to believe I am a "middle of the road" kinda of guy. I usually make every attempt to look at things from various perspectives. This makes sense to me because I am neither wealthy nor poor. I have never received public assistance, although I was broke once when I was 18 years old and had to ask my aunt to help me out (does this count?). When I worked, I made decent money and as a retired person I can pay my bills, what few I have, and still enjoy a few comforts or luxuries, but I am not going to purchase a Jag or take a cruise around the world anytime soon. I have friends and family who are very well off (my aunt was) and I have a sister who is barely scraping by and whose rent I paid this month because she couldn't. I doubt I am unique with regards to personally knowing people from all walks of life, both rich and poor.

There are and probably always have been folk who would rather scam the system or even stand on a freeway on ramp looking pathetic while panhandling for a living. There have always been people who spend much of their lives living in luxury either as a result of their own efforts or those of their forefathers. And there will always be folks that go from wealthy to poor and vice versa. So what I don't really get is how some folks seem to wear blinders when it comes to the rest of the world. They seem to make any attempt to put themselves in others shoes, as it were. Rather they spend a lot of time criticizing others and finding ways to prove their foregone conclusions right. To me that is like sinking in quicksand.

So as to not go completely off topic here, I also find it interesting that some folks who seem to be neither parents of students nor educators are so critical of education and apparently, willing to throw the baby out with the bath water, as it were. Anyone who has worked in a school around students and either as a teacher or in support roles knows there are problems with the system. They also should know that all those problems are not the caused by the public education system or our government. As has been pointed out here, some of the challenges education faces are a direct result of societal changes, such as absentee parents and the tendency for many people and children today to not take responsibility for their own actions. Additionally, there are problems with education which are a direct result of underfunding. I don't agree that the educational system is broken, but I can accept that it is changing and not always for the better. Just remember, for every negative horror story there are many positive tales to tell about successful students and educators.

1. I did not come from wealth by any stretch of the imagination. Our house hold income was less than average but my mom was great with finances.

2. I am a coach which is part of my business that was started with NOTHING, unless you consider starting a business with $100 something.

3. My other job is a trainer with my wife, she does NOT have another job.

4. As I said in #2. I started my business with nothing, no loans, no savings and a checking account that was in the negative. That $100 was taken from the overdraft money in my checking which was part of the account when I opened it. it wasn't credit over draft that I had to apply for.

5. Taken from #4, I am now in Obama's "1%" with my own home 40 yards from the sand in So. Cal, a second home in Palm Springs, a boat, a couple of cars, my own facility and just transferred my son to a PS from a private (since kindergarten) to play baseball.

Why is this relevant? Because it was done with a purpose to give my son a good, stable life, great education and to never need for the basics but go beyond and wonder where his next meal will come from and to NOT depend on anyone for help (monetary) and to stand on his own two feet.

You are who you surround yourself with, if you surround yourself with losers, you're going be a loser. If you surround yourself with success, you'll be successful. I chose to get away from people who brought me down and surrounded my self with successful people who I can learn from. It's all about what you want and doesn't have to be where you come from. I can tell you wealthy people DO give their money away..freely, and a lot of it. Again, there is a difference between giving freely and confiscating it.

BTW, when I started my business, I was also a single father with a 3 year old and not ONCE did I even think of applying for government assistance. Now you know why it fries my ass when people (lazy people) demonize wealthy people. I guaranty everyone of those CEO's, company presidents, small business owners and so on worked their ASSES off to get where they are and one hell of a lot harder than the 9-5er.
 

Primemuscle

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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #70 on: December 07, 2012, 11:50:21 PM »
1. I did not come from wealth by any stretch of the imagination. Our house hold income was less than average but my mom was great with finances.

2. I am a coach which is part of my business that was started with NOTHING, unless you consider starting a business with $100 something.

3. My other job is a trainer with my wife, she does NOT have another job.

4. As I said in #2. I started my business with nothing, no loans, no savings and a checking account that was in the negative. That $100 was taken from the overdraft money in my checking which was part of the account when I opened it. it wasn't credit over draft that I had to apply for.

5. Taken from #4, I am now in Obama's "1%" with my own home 40 yards from the sand in So. Cal, a second home in Palm Springs, a boat, a couple of cars, my own facility and just transferred my son to a PS from a private (since kindergarten) to play baseball.

Why is this relevant? Because it was done with a purpose to give my son a good, stable life, great education and to never need for the basics but go beyond and wonder where his next meal will come from and to NOT depend on anyone for help (monetary) and to stand on his own two feet.

You are who you surround yourself with, if you surround yourself with losers, you're going be a loser. If you surround yourself with success, you'll be successful. I chose to get away from people who brought me down and surrounded my self with successful people who I can learn from. It's all about what you want and doesn't have to be where you come from. I can tell you wealthy people DO give their money away..freely, and a lot of it. Again, there is a difference between giving freely and confiscating it.

BTW, when I started my business, I was also a single father with a 3 year old and not ONCE did I even think of applying for government assistance. Now you know why it fries my ass when people (lazy people) demonize wealthy people. I guaranty everyone of those CEO's, company presidents, small business owners and so on worked their ASSES off to get where they are and one hell of a lot harder than the 9-5er.
 

So I get that you are a self-made man who is luckier than some and is a successful entrepreneur. Obviously with your high income from your business (whatever that is), you don't need a bump from your public school coaching salary, which is probably just small change to you. I am still curious as to what you coach. You did not address this.

My stepfather was the youngest of eleven children. His step-father was a coal miner in Pennsylvania and a drunk. The family relied on charity from the Catholic church to eat much of the time. My stepdad had an 8th grade education. After a stint in the military in the 1940's, he knocked around in Florida working in the food industry, earning a pittance. Eventually, he moved to L.A. where he found work as a house painter. Later he met my mother who suggested he go into business for himself. He was never someone else's employee from that point forward. With lots of ambition and hard work, he was very successful in business. Similar to you, he was a self-made man. So, I get it.

As for being who you surround your self with, you have a point, but that statement is inaccurate. It is more who you identify with that influences your own success. Lots of wealthy people I know donate some of time and money to charitable functions and it doesn't bring them down. If fact, it lifts them up.

It fries my ass too when people are just too lazy to do something to better themselves and then expect a handout. However, I also know people who work hard and still struggle to succeed financially. I also know folks who are very well off who are rather lazy....some are CEO's of companies handed them without them having to work to get there.

I don't demonize folks for being rich, that would be somewhat hypocritical on my part. I do not agree with those who have little of no regard or empathy for others who are less fortunate they are or who have built their success on the backs of others and not of their own accord.

Incidentally, I don't believe President Obama coined the terms top 1% or "we are the 99%." This was the slogan of the Occupy movement in 2011.

Primemuscle

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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #71 on: December 08, 2012, 12:03:26 AM »
The top 1%  who supported the Republican candidate were clearly unsuccessful at getting their Presidential choice elected this time around. As long as we are a democracy where the populous votes for their representatives in State Legislature, in Congress and the President, the candidates supported by the 99% will win. It is the ultimate nonviolent revolutionary tactic. Money buys a lot but it can't buy everything.

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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #72 on: December 08, 2012, 06:00:47 AM »
"We want better teachers.  But we want to pay them less".


Sorry, doesn't work like that.

whork

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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #73 on: December 08, 2012, 06:20:27 AM »
"We want better teachers.  But we want to pay them less".


Sorry, doesn't work like that.

Bingo.

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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #74 on: December 08, 2012, 07:12:47 AM »
And you making excuses for poor people who DO NOT want to fend for themselves and complain about it repulses me.
What you're not understanding is that working class families are often paying a higher percentage of taxes than the very well off.

You have some dream scenario where everyone is a mooch and doesn't want to work. Just because you've found comfort in this rage doesn't make it true.

This is why I say Republicans have done such a job on you. You are actually arguing FOR the rich paying less taxes than the struggling middle class.

And BTW, in case you didn't realize it, a lot of money that the very rich "give away" is a tax right off that is simply benefiting themselves.
 
For the love of god, get out of your Fox bubble and pull your head out of your ass.
G