Workout/Routine advice from the GetBig community

[Taffin]

I remember a bunch of useless trivia... but Craig Titus' routines always had sets of 9 reps in them. 

Makes me think.....never do sets of 9 reps....it leads to prison.

True - but you get a wicked burn from them before you get to that part

[BossBoss]

I don't think that those EMG results are worth anything.
Wpuld you agree that machine pullovers are all back? Now what happens when you use a barbell or dumbell instead? Only part where I can see any pec involvement is when you are holding the weight over your chest. No one catches a chest pump or gets sore pecs from pullovers. Serratus maybe, pecs no. Pec is when you move your humerus across your body no?

Yeah, i disagree.
Pullovers are great for chest. + i think the EMG results are correct.

Why is not everbody using pullovers then?
Simple answer: the EMG is correct but only for a short period of time.

Think logical.. why is benchpress great for chest?
Same wheight for the whole movement..!

Ok, what is the solution? simple, use cable-pullovers on a flat bench!
This way you have the same resistance from the beginning to the end.

"pec involvement is when you are holding the weight over your chest. No one catches a chest pump or gets sore pecs from pullovers"

exactly..solution? see text above.

[Van_Bilderass]

Yeah, i disagree.
Pullovers are great for chest. + i think the EMG results are correct.

Why is not everbody using pullovers then?
Simple answer: the EMG is correct but only for a short period of time.

Think logical.. why is benchpress great for chest?
Same wheight for the whole movement..!

Ok, what is the solution? simple, use cable-pullovers on a flat bench!
This way you have the same resistance from the beginning to the end.

"pec involvement is when you are holding the weight over your chest. No one catches a chest pump or gets sore pecs from pullovers"

exactly..solution? see text above.

I've done pullovers every which way for 30 years and never did I feel it in my chest. I got sore around my armpits, triceps and serratus.
 I just can't picture it in my head how the pecs are involved.
Maybe guys thought that since it felt like it stretched the ribcage it meant it was a "chest" exercise.

Maybe pecs are involved in some secondary role in the movement, I don't know.

Reminds me, when I started lifting, my training partner did bench presses for abs, that's where he felt it.

[ThisisOverload]

I've done pullovers every which way for 30 years and never did I feel it in my chest. I got sore around my armpits, triceps and serratus.
 I just can't picture it in my head how the pecs are involved.
Maybe guys thought that since it felt like it stretched the ribcage it meant it was a "chest" exercise.

Maybe pecs are involved in some secondary role in the movement, I don't know.

Reminds me, when I started lifting, my training partner did bench presses for abs, that's where he felt it.

Agreed.

I think the pullover creates tension in the chest, mainly if using a DB. But i have never gotten a chest workout from doing pullovers.

The most sore my abs have ever been, were after max deadlift and squat attempts.

[pellius]

Agreed.

I think the pullover creates tension in the chest, mainly if using a DB. But i have never gotten a chest workout from doing pullovers.

The most sore my abs have ever been, were after max deadlift and squat attempts.

The pecs are primarily involved in the pullover (DB or Barbell) in pretty much one position only, and it's an isometric, stabilizing tension. The pecs are under virtually no extension and contraction under tension. Just look at the movement. The pec muscle moves the forearms from the side to the center of your torso. As soon as you start the pullover movement it is primarily the lats that is controlling the lower and raising of the load. The pecs has to relax so it can stretch back as the lats controls the eccentric and concentric contracions. You get pec flextion (and tricep) primarily at the top of the movement which is not really working the the chest. Nobody does bench presses but just holding the bar in the top postion. As you begin the movement and start stretching back try to stop it mid ways and feel which muscle remains tense and it holding the position.

The first machine Jones created was the Nautilus pullover to compensate for the many shortcomings of the traditional DB pullover. You get a full range rotary motion (which is how the movement is preformed and not just up and down). The problem with the Nautilus pullover, and it's many copy cats, is almost everybody does it wrong. Instead of driving back with the elbows, keeping tension on the lats, they pull with their hands which is vastly inferior and defeats the whole point of the machine.

[wes]

We need Vince Basile to clear all this bullshit advice up !!

[IroNat]

The old timers in the 30s/40s were big on measurements.

How do you measure chest size?

You run a measuring tape around your torso under the arms.

So, pullovers increase the chest size measurement by enlarging the lats.

[Taffin]

The old timers in the 30s/40s were big on measurements.

How do you measure chest size?

You run a measuring tape around your torso under the arms.

So, pullovers increase the chest size measurement by enlarging the lats.

Pfft!  You and your deductive logic - what's next?  Common sense?! 

[IroNat]

Pfft!  You and your deductive logic - what's next?  Common sense?! 

Sh*t man, it's nothing really...

[webstar]

Matt Porter PIP protocol and diet


Phase FIVE

Start eviscerate on lower back and abs after showering ASAP AGAIN! (buy at least 2
bottles --- http://www.orbitnutrition.com/cart/evomuse-eviscerate-smolder-180-ml.html )
Use my coupon code matt10

Start CLEN immediately at whatever dose you can tolerate. Build up , do not exceed 200
mcg per day

(slam 30 g BCAAs right before doing this cardio)
TWO  25 minutes of INTERVAL HIIT cardio → 45/15 elliptical
45 seconds are performed at a quick pace---> then 15 seconds of every minute you BLAST!! Give
it everything you have!!! Repeat this 45/15 cadence for 25 minutes straight!

(I want the 25 minutes of INTERVALS spread out 6-10 hours apart)

50 minutes TOTAL --(should be kicking major ass on these sessions!!!
NOTE: !!!! Consume 30g of sugar-free BCAAS before each INTERVAL cardio session

Meal 1:                                      Pro            Carbs               Fat
2c egg whites                                      67                     *                             3
3 oz diced chicken
add mushrooms/onions/spinach

Meal 2:
6 oz chicken/99% turkey                      48                        *                         5
5 asparagus spears
1 cucumber

Meal 3:
7 oz chicken/99% turkey                     56                        *                        6
5 asparagus spears

Meal 4: (pre w/o meal)
2c egg whites                                        50                       13                        2
1/4c jasmine rice (cooked wt)
5 asparagus spears

Post-Training repeat same cardio


25 minutes of INTERVAL HIIT cardio → 45/15 elliptical
45 seconds are performed at a quick pace---> then 15 seconds of every minute you BLAST!! Give
it everything you have!!! Repeat this 45/15 cadence for 25 minutes straight!

SMALLER (mid-week) Wednesday REFEED -
-3c pancake mix (low fat krusteaz ) add water to make thick as you please
-2c 100% egg whites
1 bagels toasted w/ sugar free smuckers jame

LARGER REFEED SATURDAY -
-2c pancake mix (low fat krusteaz ) add water to make thick as you please
-3c pasta (cooked wt) + 6 oz shrimp or chicken
-3 Thomas toasted bagels
-Large double meat (extra turkey) SubWay or homemade sandwich -- extra turkey, no cheese, no mayo, use
dijon mustard, spinach, tomatoes, cucumbers, onions etc,,,
-2 Mcdonalds soft serve vanilla cones

Meal 5: (post workout)
1.5 scoop whey iso + 1c egg whites       63                      32                           2
2 slices ezekiel toast
truvia/cinnamon over toast

Meal 6:
3 oz diced chicken
1.5c egg whites                                       55                           *                         4
1c shiitake mushrooms, onions, spinach
(omelet)

Meal Totals :                                            336                        45                      22

Mandatory Notes:
Would like you to train 7 days/week
Drink a required 1.5 gallons of pure water per day (does not include diets)
Measure all meats/proteins cooked weight
Rice is measured cooked --- Yams/potatoes are measured ‘baked’
Mild splenda/fake butter spray is ok
Use seasonings, sea salt, mustards, garlic salt etc for sodium

Have the following supps on hand --

SUPER SUPPS

Use your stack you ordered.

[webstar]

Perfect Peaking Protocol....

never used it did my own thing..

Final Week Outline -----Nov 25th (Tues) --- Nov 29th (Sat)

                                Carbs             Water               Sodium               Training                 Cardio                                         
Monday (11/24/14       (45g)                2 gallons      normal intake         Giant Sets                  same
                                final phase 5
Tuesday (11/25/14)      (45g)                2 gallons      normal intake         Giant Sets                  same
                                final phase 5
Weds    (11/26/14)       (200g)               2 gallons     normal intake          Giant Sets               POSE
                                carb menu
Thurs    (11/27/14)        (200g)              2 gallons    normal intake      Light upper body circuit        POSE
                                carb menu
Friday   (11/28/14)          (45g)              2 gallon       Light salt                       POSE
                   final phase 5→ carbs thru night
Saturday (11/29/14)        (*)       (8-12 oz water between meals) Light salt like Friday               
                          See contest day menu 

NOTES:

Take ˝ tab dyazide on Friday before sleeping ----> Take other half after Meal 1
Saturday.

·       On Friday you will have still salt foods -- just lighter (instinctively use less.--
No sugar free drinks or artificial sweeteners.
      On Friday -- you will eat your normal Phase 5 menu  then after meal 6 → you will
have 4-5 rice cakes with a light spread of organic fruit preserves set in the bathroom.
Each time you pee, eat them, throughout the night.

On Saturday -- You will just be drinking LESS water compared to previous days (˝ gallon
total, also iced black coffee sipped between meals & VitaCoCo (coconut water sipped
between meals lightly to ensure no cramps or minimal) -- not completely cutting water,
the rebound COULD be fierce.

Have VITACOCO (coconut water) on hand Saturday

-Have anal suppositories on hand for clearing stomach. (great to use Saturday afternoon)

[Taffin]

Perfect Peaking Protocol....

never used it did my own thing..

Final Week Outline -----Nov 25th (Tues) --- Nov 29th (Sat)

                                Carbs             Water               Sodium               Training                 Cardio                                         
Monday (11/24/14       (45g)                2 gallons      normal intake         Giant Sets                  same
                                final phase 5
Tuesday (11/25/14)      (45g)                2 gallons      normal intake         Giant Sets                  same
                                final phase 5
Weds    (11/26/14)       (200g)               2 gallons     normal intake          Giant Sets               POSE
                                carb menu
Thurs    (11/27/14)        (200g)              2 gallons    normal intake      Light upper body circuit        POSE
                                carb menu
Friday   (11/28/14)          (45g)              2 gallon       Light salt                       POSE
                   final phase 5→ carbs thru night
Saturday (11/29/14)        (*)       (8-12 oz water between meals) Light salt like Friday               
                          See contest day menu 

NOTES:

Take ˝ tab dyazide on Friday before sleeping ----> Take other half after Meal 1
Saturday.

·       On Friday you will have still salt foods -- just lighter (instinctively use less.--
No sugar free drinks or artificial sweeteners.
      On Friday -- you will eat your normal Phase 5 menu  then after meal 6 → you will
have 4-5 rice cakes with a light spread of organic fruit preserves set in the bathroom.
Each time you pee, eat them, throughout the night.

On Saturday -- You will just be drinking LESS water compared to previous days (˝ gallon
total, also iced black coffee sipped between meals & VitaCoCo (coconut water sipped
between meals lightly to ensure no cramps or minimal) -- not completely cutting water,
the rebound COULD be fierce.

Have VITACOCO (coconut water) on hand Saturday

-Have anal suppositories on hand for clearing stomach. (great to use Saturday afternoon)

You wanna get the timing on that last item right! 

[ThisisOverload]

The pecs are primarily involved in the pullover (DB or Barbell) in pretty much one position only, and it's an isometric, stabilizing tension.

I agree for sure.

[Grape Ape]

The old timers in the 30s/40s were big on measurements.

They were also big on looking like absolute retards when they posed.

[Van_Bilderass]

The pecs are primarily involved in the pullover (DB or Barbell) in pretty much one position only, and it's an isometric, stabilizing tension.

Yup, said the exact same a few pages back.
I wonder why the EMG says pecs are heavily involved. I'm too lazy to research EMG, all I know is that some reputable guys have said there are some shortcomings to EMG.

However, I wonder about what you said about the hands in the machine pullover. It feels like you involve arms when grabbing the machine but to me it's logical that it shouldn't reduce lat stress. And to me it just feels weird, unstable and weak to not hold on to the handles, easier to move the elbows or feels like they will move. I have my elbows against the pads but I hold on tight with my hands. How would the arm muscles assist when the arm angle doesn't change?

[IroNat]

They were also big on looking like absolute retards when they posed.

The guys today look much more retarded.

[webstar]

You wanna get the timing on that last item right! 

lol ya basically. he was a whack job cookie cutter garbage

[joswift]

Perfect Peaking Protocol....

never used it did my own thing..

Final Week Outline -----Nov 25th (Tues) --- Nov 29th (Sat)

                                Carbs             Water               Sodium               Training                 Cardio                                         
Monday (11/24/14       (45g)                2 gallons      normal intake         Giant Sets                  same
                                final phase 5
Tuesday (11/25/14)      (45g)                2 gallons      normal intake         Giant Sets                  same
                                final phase 5
Weds    (11/26/14)       (200g)               2 gallons     normal intake          Giant Sets               POSE
                                carb menu
Thurs    (11/27/14)        (200g)              2 gallons    normal intake      Light upper body circuit        POSE
                                carb menu
Friday   (11/28/14)          (45g)              2 gallon       Light salt                       POSE
                   final phase 5→ carbs thru night
Saturday (11/29/14)        (*)       (8-12 oz water between meals) Light salt like Friday               
                          See contest day menu 

NOTES:

Take ˝ tab dyazide on Friday before sleeping ----> Take other half after Meal 1
Saturday.

·       On Friday you will have still salt foods -- just lighter (instinctively use less.--
No sugar free drinks or artificial sweeteners.
      On Friday -- you will eat your normal Phase 5 menu  then after meal 6 → you will
have 4-5 rice cakes with a light spread of organic fruit preserves set in the bathroom.
Each time you pee, eat them, throughout the night.

On Saturday -- You will just be drinking LESS water compared to previous days (˝ gallon
total, also iced black coffee sipped between meals & VitaCoCo (coconut water sipped
between meals lightly to ensure no cramps or minimal) -- not completely cutting water,
the rebound COULD be fierce.

Have VITACOCO (coconut water) on hand Saturday

-Have anal suppositories on hand for clearing stomach. (great to use Saturday afternoon)

Look great 1 week out, do all this maybe look 2% better or more likely fuck yourself up altogether

[AbrahamG]

They were also big on looking like absolute retards when they posed.

Bingo.

[ThisisOverload]

Yup, said the exact same a few pages back.
I wonder why the EMG says pecs are heavily involved. I'm too lazy to research EMG, all I know is that some reputable guys have said there are some shortcomings to EMG.

However, I wonder about what you said about the hands in the machine pullover. It feels like you involve arms when grabbing the machine but to me it's logical that it shouldn't reduce lat stress. And to me it just feels weird, unstable and weak to not hold on to the handles, easier to move the elbows or feels like they will move. I have my elbows against the pads but I hold on tight with my hands. How would the arm muscles assist when the arm angle doesn't change?

Last night i did heavy heavy DB pullovers. Way heavier than i've ever tried.

Today my chest feels fine. But my rear delts, teres and forearms are sore as hell. Lats a little sore.

[pellius]

Yup, said the exact same a few pages back.
I wonder why the EMG says pecs are heavily involved. I'm too lazy to research EMG, all I know is that some reputable guys have said there are some shortcomings to EMG.

However, I wonder about what you said about the hands in the machine pullover. It feels like you involve arms when grabbing the machine but to me it's logical that it shouldn't reduce lat stress. And to me it just feels weird, unstable and weak to not hold on to the handles, easier to move the elbows or feels like they will move. I have my elbows against the pads but I hold on tight with my hands. How would the arm muscles assist when the arm angle doesn't change?

This hard to explain on paper. First let's start with the traditional underhand cable pulldown that it seems Jay Cutler started off with on every lat workout. Look at how his elbows/upper arms track. That's what makes it a lat movement because there is resistance on the humerus being pulled back just like a chest movement is when there is resistance when the humorous is pushed across the torso. In the case of the underhand pulldown, this is not optimal because the resistance has to travel through your fingers, forearms, biceps, and then your humerus. Ideally, you want the resistance to be right behind your elbows and triceps. When you grab the bar in front of you, you now take direct resistance off the elbows/upper arms. Most people don't even have their elbows pressing against the pad but pulling directly with your hands. They are essentially doing a worse version off the DB pullover because you are pulling with your fingers, by far the weakest link in that movement. At least with the DB pullover the resistance is being braced against the palm of which can support far, far more weight and you can really get a good stretch which is the main advantage of this movement.

When I get on the Nautilus type pullover and position and brace my elbows against the pads I can't quite reach the bar in front of me and positioning my hands and holding on to the bars along the side puts me an unnatural position because my hands/arms are too far apart. I can touch the side of my head with my bicep when my hand is positioned behind my neck but if I tried that position with my forearm and hand position outside my shoulder width I'd practically tear my arm off my shoulder.

Just try it. Get in the pullover machine and push down with your feet to position the pads. Choose a light weight just to get used to the movement. position your elbows directly on the pad. Hold you hands in any position that comfortable with grabbing the bar. I make kind of a soft fist and press the side of my hands together while keeping my arms bent at a 45-degree angle which changes dynamically as I go through the movement going by how I feel it against the lats. Then let go of the bar that is being braced by your feet and slowly stretch back as far as you can go. Always keeping your chest puff out drive your elbows against the pads and go all the way down. You are essentially doing the same movement as when Jay does an underhand pulldown with a close grip with his chest out and back arched but your arms are always bent and only your elbows are making direct contact with the pads indicating that only the humerus is under resistance.

And to sound even more like a know it all and arrogant, even Dorian does it wrong as he starts to lean forward during the contraction phase when he should have his chest up and back arches. I lean forward as well toward the end of the set but do it because I don't have a partner to spot me for forced reps. So when I can't go all the way down I "cheat" and lean forward but then get back proper position for the negative. The direct resistance on my lats have them screaming. I also do some partials during the stretch portion of the movement at the end for a screeching burn. Then, in classic A. Jones' style, I immediately move on to a compound pulling movement.

I believe this is one of the best ways to train lats as before my grip and biceps would always fail and I can really feel the lats and get a good pump which is not easy to do with the lats. I only wish I could prove it's effectiveness by actual results. I have virtually noticeable lat development.

BTW, just to be clear, if you can position your hand on the bar without taking away ANY resistance on the elbows against the pad that's ideal. You have a place where you can rest your hands. For me, I can't. So though my hands are pretty much in the same position as Dorian's is when he's doing this exercise, it's just "free floating" which for some takes some getting use to.

[BossBoss]

Here is a visualization of a cable pullover. For a chest workout.



It is almost impossible to not get a chest-pump.

[LittleJ]

No

[BossBoss]

No

Yes

[Van_Bilderass]

This hard to explain on paper.

I only have access to the Hammer pullover and can put the elbows on the pads while grabbing the handles since it's built differently.

As far as proper form, these biomechanics experts say Dorian did them somewhat wrong, but kind of opposite of what you say, since for maximal lat activation you generally don't want to arch the back and should never drive the elbows all the way back. I agree with you that there is a tendency to make it a crunch as you fatigue and it feels like you lose contact with your lats.