Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: musclecenter on June 17, 2007, 03:33:59 AM
-
Michael Lockett (2007 Junior Nationals overallwinner) was the overall winner of US Team Universe 2006, too, but he only placed 12th in the 2006 Super Heavyweight World Championships in the Czech Republic .
How could he earn a Pro Card last year ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
discuss
-
Fairly simple....not speaking of Lockett per se...but in general. The worlds has the best of the best from all over the world. Everyone there is a national champion basically. Being the best in your nation is a huge accomplishment no doubt, but being the best in the world is a whole next level.
-
Michael Lockett (2007 Junior Nationals overallwinner) was the overall winner of US Team Universe 2006, too, but he only placed 12th in the 2006 Super Heavyweight World Championships in the Czech Republic .
How could he earn a Pro Card last year ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
discuss
That was 2006, this is 2007. J/K.....You are no stranger to BB, winning is all about who shows up to the show. Also does the competitor really set on doing this show, or is he obligated. All of these things make a difference.
-
I mean why can't a European or Asian Champion,or other National or International Champions,for that matter,not earn a "Pro-Card" ?
-
I mean why can't a European or Asian Champion,or other National or International Champions,for that matter,not earn a "Pro-Card" ?
They do, I believe there is a pro card given out the European Champs [?] and I know in my region we get one card per year per division...but there are far less pro cards available to the rest of the world, comparitively to one nation, yes.
-
I mean why can't a European or Asian Champion,or other National or International Champions,for that matter,not earn a "Pro-Card" ?
they can but its just a lot harder than an american citizen
since IFBB was started in america, it is based in america and centers around america...i think the IFFB amateurs are all over the world but the main thing people care about is the IFFB pros which centers in america
-
they can but its just a lot harder than an american citizen
since IFBB was started in america, it is based in america and centers around america...i think the IFFB amateurs are all over the world but the main thing people care about is the IFFB pros which centers in america
Basically, yes. The "International" in the IFBB, on a pro level, is a bit of a misnomer as it is a more American org as you said.
-
Fairly simple....not speaking of Lockett per se...but in general. The worlds has the best of the best from all over the world. Everyone there is a national champion basically. Being the best in your nation is a huge accomplishment no doubt, but being the best in the world is a whole next level.
You're not mentioning the fact that most countries don't have drug testing at the national level.
Team Universe is, at least on paper (Hello MattT!), a natural competition.
That's the biggest reason why USA isn't doing well in these competitions.
Best solution would obviously be if the NPC Nationals winners would go to the World Championships, and there they would try to win their pro card.
This is of course never gonna happen, as NPC won't freely give up the dozen or so pro cards their allowed to hand out each year.
-Hedge
-
I am a little shocked how little most people know about the IFBB.
The IFBB is an international bodybuilding federation (for amateurs and professionals) based in Canada. Last October Dr. Rafeael Santonja from Spain took over the presidency from Ben Weider. Ben and Joe Weider (both Canadians) founded the IFBB in 1946.
The IFBB recognizes National Federations as their members. In the US it is the NPC.
While most athletes in the IFBB are amateurs, some of the advanced athletes are made "IFBB Professionals."
The head organization for the IFBB Professionals is the "IFBB Pro League." The president of the IFBB Pro League is Jim Manion from the USA. He is also a vice president of the IFBB and the president of the NPC, which is the amateur organization of the IFBB in the USA.
Some athletes become IFBB Pros, based on their rankings at certain championships. Some become IFBB Pros based on a recommendation by a national federation. Athletes from the US are clearly favored here.
Another very important split within the IFBB is caused by the drug tests. While most international championships are drug tested, most competitions in the USA are not. The NPC Team Universe is an exception. That's why the winners from the Team Universe represent the USA at the World Championships, but never place very high.
-
Sorry,guys
My English is not so perfect .
As a 30+years bodybuilder ,I know the rule of "IFBB Pro League" and NPC.......
But for a non-American,we always have 2 questions:
(1)Why US's Team Universe placements are so low in World Championships now?
in 2006,all USA athletes's placements almost last.-70kg was last!!!
Japan and our team have strict drug tests too(I was 2006 Taiwan national team coach ),but our placements better than USA !
It's impossible 20 years ago !!!!!
Since 1985 USA team's placements in World Championships have gotten worse !!!
(2)Why IFBB Pro League won't invite more foreign champions to get a pro-card ?
(According to rules:every class-winner of NPC Nationals can get pro-card .but class-winner of Asian Championships can not !)
##Anyone give me answer ?(please don't trolling)
........................ ........................ ........................ ........................
Last year I have finished my 735 pages Chinese edition bodybuilding book (pic as following)
-
Sorry,guys
My English is not so perfect .
As a 30+years bodybuilder ,I know the rule of "IFBB Pro League" and NPC.......
But for a non-American,we always have 2 questions:
(1)Why US's Team Universe placements are so low in World Championships now?
in 2006,all USA athletes's placements almost last.-70kg was last!!!
Japan and our team have strict drug tests too(I was 2006 Taiwan national team coach ),but our placements better than USA !
It's impossible 20 years ago !!!!!
Since 1985 USA team's placements in World Championships have gotten worse !!!
(2)Why IFBB Pro League won't invite more foreign champions to get a pro-card ?
(According to rules:every class-winner of NPC Nationals can get pro-card .but class-winner of Asian Championships can not !)
##Anyone give me answer ?(please don't trolling)
........................ ........................ ........................ ........................
Last year I have finished my 735 pages Chinese edition bodybuilding book (pic as following)
Because Team Universe is a natural contest
and our american naturals suck
-
the ifbb worlds are a tough show.. everyone who places inthem has cheated the test.. remember that it is drug tested.. not a "natural" show.. get around the test as most do and you can compete.. thatbeing said, lockett was outclassed by the euro bodybuilders.. europe has some great talent that we just dont see in our magazines ect.. but, many could come here and win our very own nationals..
-
There are eight weight classes. Two out of the top five of each class are tested.
-
They do, I believe there is a pro card given out the European Champs [?] and I know in my region we get one card per year per division...but there are far less pro cards available to the rest of the world, comparitively to one nation, yes.
u BELIEVE WRONG..NO CARD TO THE EUROPEAN CHAMP.
-
Nobody gets automatically a pro card, because he won a European Championships (although he should!!).
It depends how the National Federations handle this. The National Federations can submit an athlete for Pro Staus, becauce he placed 1st, 2nd, 3rd or so in a big contest. Outside the US I only know of the winner of the Canadians and the (overall) winner of the IFBB World. Dennis Wolf got his pro card that way (he was NOT drug tested). Ali Tabrizi could ask for his pro card, but is not sure if he really wants it. Kamal ElGargni and Elshahat Mabrouk were IFBB Pros, but wanted to go back being amateurs.
I understand that some athletes who qualify for pro status prefer being amateurs for two reasons:
1) you need to take too many drugs.
2) the IFBB Pro League clearly favors athletes, who live in the US.
-
So is or is not the World Championships a drug-tested show??
Mr Taiwan seems to imply that....but not cristina????
I know Hamdullah Akutya(sp?), mr. Shredded, went pro in the IFBB and then went back to an Amateur and represented his country (Turkey i think) at the Worlds.
-
But for a non-American,we always have 2 questions:
(1)Why US's Team Universe placements are so low in World Championships now?
in 2006,all USA athletes's placements almost last.-70kg was last!!!
Japan and our team have strict drug tests too(I was 2006 Taiwan national team coach ),but our placements better than USA !
It's impossible 20 years ago !!!!!
Since 1985 USA team's placements in World Championships have gotten worse !!!
Bodybuilding is about genetics as much as anything else. In America, the guys with the best genetics skip the Team Universe and do the NPC Nationals so they can become pros. So in reality, the "world championships" are your best guys against our second-best guys. The best American athletes never compete at the IFBB Worlds.
(2)Why IFBB Pro League won't invite more foreign champions to get a pro-card ?
(According to rules:every class-winner of NPC Nationals can get pro-card .but class-winner of Asian Championships can not !)
More foreign champions probably should get pro cards. However, in the case of Asia, since according to Milos, Paul Chua is busy fixing all of the results anyway, maybe it's not such a good idea.
-
G o a t b o y: you make some good points!
Basically it comes down to this:
1) drug-tested or not
2) US or the rest of the world
3) Santonja or Manion
-
Nobody gets automatically a pro card, because he won a European Championships (although he should!!).
It depends how the National Federations handle this. The National Federations can submit an athlete for Pro Staus, becauce he placed 1st, 2nd, 3rd or so in a big contest. Outside the US I only know of the winner of the Canadians and the (overall) winner of the IFBB World. Dennis Wolf got his pro card that way (he was NOT drug tested). Ali Tabrizi could ask for his pro card, but is not sure if he really wants it. Kamal ElGargni and Elshahat Mabrouk were IFBB Pros, but wanted to go back being amateurs.
I understand that some athletes who qualify for pro status prefer being amateurs for two reasons:
1) you need to take too many drugs.
2) the IFBB Pro League clearly favors athletes, who live in the US.
Another reason is some amateurs worldwide are financially compensated by their respective governments for winning, and it is in their better financial interests to refuse the pro card. I personally get more compensation as an 'amateur' than I would ever most likely see as a 'pro'.
u BELIEVE WRONG..NO CARD TO THE EUROPEAN CHAMP.
Wow, that's pretty weak. I thought they did and believe they should.
Strange thing is, I don't know how, but there seems to be a lot of pro figure girls coming out of Europe. I see girls who I know have not even won the European Champs who seem to then turn up with pro status...?
-
Actually the USA team the Canadian team and the Aussie team are some of the 'few' who are drug free!
If you look back and see the top 3 in each class for the last few years running you will find they are generally DQ and as they dont test everyone the places are left open.
Sad but true!
When I went to the Worlds as a spectator it was an eye opener. The Americans had some of the BEST NATURAL physiques in the world whereas the other countries def had drugs involved.
-
Lockett was a heavyweight at the TU and a superHW and the World's, barely missing the weight class.
-
Strange thing is, I don't know how, but there seems to be a lot of pro figure girls coming out of Europe. I see girls who I know have not even won the European Champs who seem to then turn up with pro status...?
Mercedes Khani is pro now on recommendation from the dutch federation even though she never won anything major.
They believe she can represent Holland in pro figure contests together with Mascha Tieken who is a pro for a few years now
-
When will the Team USA win the World Amateur Championships like Lee Haney did in 1982 ??
If they can't claim the title,it would be pretty sad !!
I hope they don't get last place again !! ;D ;D ;D
-
All the good american athletes use thier potential in sports that actually pay...
-
Ben and Joe Weider (both Canadians) founded the IFBB in 1946.
actually, there is no evidence of this. The first time the Weiders used the name IFBB was in the December 1947 issue of Your Physique (http://musclememory.com/showArticle.php?yp080328) and the first IFBB contest run by the Weiders was the 1948 Mr Eastern North America (http://musclememory.com/show.php?c=Mr+Eastern+North+America+-+IFBB&y=1948). The IFBB was incorporated as a business entity in 1969.
(drug testing) The NPC Team Universe is an exception.
yet no one has ever been disqualified from TeamU for failing a drug test, no one has lost their placing, no one has lost their pro card.
Another reason is some amateurs worldwide are financially compensated by their respective governments for winning, and it is in their better financial interests to refuse the pro card.
The Singapore government paid their top amateur bodybuilder $168,000 for winning a gold medal at the Asian games a few years back. Little chance of them making that as a pro.
-
When will the Team USA win the World Amateur Championships like Lee Haney did in 1982 ??
If they can't claim the title,it would be pretty sad !!
I hope they don't get last place again !! ;D ;D ;D
How come when the Europeans/Asians enter the IFBB they disappear? Look what hapened to Federov LOL
-
How come when the Europeans/Asians enter the IFBB they disappear? Look what hapened to Federov LOL
Dennis Wolf won the 2005 IFBB World Amateur Championships
Hidetada Yamagishi, Tamer El Shahat, Ahmad Haidar, Armin Scholz, Martin Kjellstrom, Oliver Adzievski
-
Michael Lockett (2007 Junior Nationals overallwinner) was the overall winner of US Team Universe 2006, too, but he only placed 12th in the 2006 Super Heavyweight World Championships in the Czech Republic .
How could he earn a Pro Card last year ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
discuss
In the late 90s and early 2000s, the Universe shows were held in countries that were less-than-friendly to the USA. The Team Universe winners never got to compete in the Universe (aka World Amateur Bodybuilding Championships). To make up for that, the Team Universe show became a pro qualifier in 2003. Therefore, the overall winner gets a pro card. Previous winners (i.e. Skip LaCour and Greg Rando) got grandfathered into IFBB pro eligibility, as well.
Rando competes in the IFBB; LaCour does not.
Now, the TU class winners are competing in the Mr. Universe shows. But, the rule is still in effect, regarding the overall TU champion getting a pro card.
-
In the late 90s and early 2000s, the Universe shows were held in countries that were less-than-friendly to the USA. The Team Universe winners never got to compete in the Universe (aka World Amateur Bodybuilding Championships).
1995 Guam, 4 Americans placed in top 15 of 6 classes
1996 Amman, Jordan, no Americans placed in top 6 of 6 classes
1997 Prague, Czech Republic, 6 Americans placed in top 10 of 6 classes
1998 Izmir, Turkey, 1 American placed in top 15 of 6 classes
1999 Bratislava, Slovakia, 4 Americans placed in top 15 of 6 classes
2000 Malacca, Malaysia, 2 Americans placed in top 6 of 6 classes
2001 Yangon, Myanmar, no Americans placed in top 15 of 7 classes
2002 Cairo, Egypt, no Americans placed in top 15 of 6 classes
2003 Mumbai, India, no Americans placed in top 15 of 7 classes
2004 Moscow, Russia, no Americans placed in top 15 of 7 classes
2005 Shanghai, China, 6 Americans placed in top 15 of 7 classes
Only 2001 and 2002 did the USA team skip the World Amateur Championships because of security concerns.
-
In the late 90s and early 2000s, the Universe shows were held in countries that were less-than-friendly to the USA. The Team Universe winners never got to compete in the Universe (aka World Amateur Bodybuilding Championships). To make up for that, the Team Universe show became a pro qualifier in 2003. Therefore, the overall winner gets a pro card. Previous winners (i.e. Skip LaCour and Greg Rando) got grandfathered into IFBB pro eligibility, as well.
Rando competes in the IFBB; LaCour does not.
Now, the TU class winners are competing in the Mr. Universe shows. But, the rule is still in effect, regarding the overall TU champion getting a pro card.
With all due respect, I can say much of the international bodybuilding community felt that the reason stated above was inaccurate. Yes, being an American did not give anyone an automatic right to win anything, nor should it imo. They like every other nation, can go and compete and the best will win most times.
Mercedes Khani is pro now on recommendation from the dutch federation even though she never won anything major.
They believe she can represent Holland in pro figure contests together with Mascha Tieken who is a pro for a few years now
Again, no disrespect intended even though this sounds rude, but imo some European nations are beginning to hand out pro cards in figure like candy. No offence to Mercedes, but she never even won the Dutch Nationals once, and in the last European Amateur Champs she did not even make the top 15...yet now she is pro? That is becoming very prevalent in some nations with figure. IMO it is an insult to the Americans, Canadians and Central/South Americans that must work to earn theirs through winning top level contests, and also insulting to bodybuilders who don't seem to get cards granted so easily. I do feel cards should be earned, not passed as anything other diminishes the 'prestige' of a pro card.
-
Again, no disrespect intended even though this sounds rude, but imo some European nations are beginning to hand out pro cards in figure like candy. No offence to Mercedes, but she never even won the Dutch Nationals once, and in the last European Amateur Champs she did not even make the top 15...yet now she is pro? That is becoming very prevalent in some nations with figure. IMO it is an insult to the Americans, Canadians and Central/South Americans that must work to earn theirs through winning top level contests, and also insulting to bodybuilders who don't seem to get cards granted so easily. I do feel cards should be earned, not passed as anything other diminishes the 'prestige' of a pro card.
Figure:
NPC Junior USA - top 2 receive a pro card
NPC Junior Nationals - winner of each of 6 height classes
NPC Nationals - top 2 in each of 6 height classes
NPC Masters Nationals - overall winner
NPC USA - winner of each of 6 height classes
IFBB North America - top 2
for a total of 29 pro cards handed out every year to figure competitors
-
Figure:
NPC Junior USA - top 2 receive a pro card
NPC Junior Nationals - winner of each of 6 height classes
NPC Nationals - top 2 in each of 6 height classes
NPC Masters Nationals - overall winner
NPC USA - winner of each of 6 height classes
IFBB North America - top 2
for a total of 29 pro cards handed out every year to figure competitors
That is many, personally I think far too many for one nation as I have posted before, but at least the Americans earn them as those shows are full of quality competitors, and they are not gifted the card.
Tim, you're the man that would know, how does that compare to the amounts handed out to bodybuilding and fitness in the USA?
-
You're not mentioning the fact that most countries don't have drug testing at the national level.
Team Universe is, at least on paper (Hello MattT!), a natural competition.
That's the biggest reason why USA isn't doing well in these competitions.
Best solution would obviously be if the NPC Nationals winners would go to the World Championships, and there they would try to win their pro card.
This is of course never gonna happen, as NPC won't freely give up the dozen or so pro cards their allowed to hand out each year.
-Hedge
The Team U was "invented" to be the drug tested nationals that would pick the USA team for the amatuer IFBB worlds. The nationals used to be used and the class winners would go. Ronnie was not close to winning the nationals as a HVY wt when he was selected to go for the USA team and he was the ONLY heavy wt willing to submit to the urine drug test. He won the hvy wt worlds and then got his pro card.
The team U has the best "natural" guys this country has in the NPC. This is not the best future pros however.
Any guy serious about making a pro career is already into the juice long before he wins his pro card at the NPC nationals now. The Team U winners often have great physiques but they are not our absolute best.
-
Tim, you're the man that would know, how does that compare to the amounts handed out to bodybuilding and fitness in the USA?
I don't think there are 29 fitness competitors in the whole USA. But you get two for each [of 3] classes for the Nationals, Junior Nationals, and Team Universe, for a total of 18.
For bodybuilding, I count 12 for men and 8 for women.
[edited because I can't multipy]
-
The team U has the best "natural" guys this country has in the NPC. This is not the best future pros however.
Any guy serious about making a pro career is already into the juice long before he wins his pro card at the NPC nationals now. The Team U winners often have great physiques but they are not our absolute best.
Yet, amazingly, Kai Greene, TU winner 1999 and 2004, was able to go from life time natural to winning the Colorado Pro in only 3 years.
-
there aren't 29 fitness competitors in the whole USA. But you get two for each class for the Nationals, Junior Nationals, and Team Universe, for a total of 9.
For bodybuilding, I count 12 for men and 8 for women.
Thanks Tim.
Interesting....the total number of cards for 3 divisions [men bb, fem bb, fit] equals the amount of pro cards for the remaining division of figure.
-
1995 Guam, 4 Americans placed in top 15 of 6 classes
1996 Amman, Jordan, no Americans placed in top 6 of 6 classes
1997 Prague, Czech Republic, 6 Americans placed in top 10 of 6 classes
1998 Izmir, Turkey, 1 American placed in top 15 of 6 classes
1999 Bratislava, Slovakia, 4 Americans placed in top 15 of 6 classes
2000 Malacca, Malaysia, 2 Americans placed in top 6 of 6 classes
2001 Yangon, Myanmar, no Americans placed in top 15 of 7 classes
2002 Cairo, Egypt, no Americans placed in top 15 of 6 classes
2003 Mumbai, India, no Americans placed in top 15 of 7 classes
2004 Moscow, Russia, no Americans placed in top 15 of 7 classes
2005 Shanghai, China, 6 Americans placed in top 15 of 7 classes
Only 2001 and 2002 did the USA team skip the World Amateur Championships because of security concerns.
I don't about the accuraccy of all your "facts" but the US did NOT even compete here:
1998 Izmir, Turkey, 1 American placed in top 15 of 6 classes
-
I don't about the accuraccy of all your "facts" but the US did NOT even compete here:
1998 Izmir, Turkey, 1 American placed in top 15 of 6 classes
Perhaps the US (NPC) did not send a team, but Charles Kemp (http://musclememory.com/show.php?a=Kemp,+Charles) came in 5th in the heavyweight class. Of course I don't know his citizenship for sure. He may have dual citizenship, or may have only been in the US on a visa. And of course it's possible there was more than one Charles Kemp competing at that time.
-
Interesting....the total number of cards for 3 divisions [men bb, fem bb, fit] equals the amount of pro cards for the remaining division of figure.
I messed up the fitness. I now count
29 Figure
18 Fitness
12 Men bodybuilding
8 Women bodybuilding
-
1995 Guam, 4 Americans placed in top 15 of 6 classes
1996 Amman, Jordan, no Americans placed in top 6 of 6 classes
1997 Prague, Czech Republic, 6 Americans placed in top 10 of 6 classes
1998 Izmir, Turkey, 1 American placed in top 15 of 6 classes
1999 Bratislava, Slovakia, 4 Americans placed in top 15 of 6 classes
2000 Malacca, Malaysia, 2 Americans placed in top 6 of 6 classes
2001 Yangon, Myanmar, no Americans placed in top 15 of 7 classes
2002 Cairo, Egypt, no Americans placed in top 15 of 6 classes
2003 Mumbai, India, no Americans placed in top 15 of 7 classes
2004 Moscow, Russia, no Americans placed in top 15 of 7 classes
2005 Shanghai, China, 6 Americans placed in top 15 of 7 classes
Only 2001 and 2002 did the USA team skip the World Amateur Championships because of security concerns.
Not according to one of my magazines:
Due to the turbulent political climate in the Middle East, NPC president Jim Manion has decided not to have the NPC USA men's bodybuilding team compete in the IFBB World Amateur Bodybuilding Championships in Jordan this November. Upon speaking with the U.S. State Department in Washington, D.C., NPC President Manion was told by the State Department that all USA athletic teams are prime targets for terroristic threats and actions. Jim also feels that it is unfair to jeopardize the safety of the other countries attending the championships. - All Natural Muscular Development, April 1997 page 148.
That was the point I was making. The Team Universe guys did not go to the 1996 World Amateur Championships (Mr. Universe).
The term "less-than-friendly was not a reference to the judges of the show, but to the potential security risks (terroristic threats). If any Americans went to the Universe, they probably went on their own dime. From this article I quoted, Manion did not send the TU guys to compete.
-
The Team U was "invented" to be the drug tested nationals that would pick the USA team for the amatuer IFBB worlds. The nationals used to be used and the class winners would go. Ronnie was not close to winning the nationals as a HVY wt when he was selected to go for the USA team and he was the ONLY heavy wt willing to submit to the urine drug test. He won the hvy wt worlds and then got his pro card.
The team U has the best "natural" guys this country has in the NPC. This is not the best future pros however.
Any guy serious about making a pro career is already into the juice long before he wins his pro card at the NPC nationals now. The Team U winners often have great physiques but they are not our absolute best.
The last group of NPC national class winners to go to the Universe was in 1990, headed by light-heavyweight and overall champion Alq Gurley. That was also the lone year that the Nationals was drug-tested.
-
simple lockett is overated
-
With all due respect, I can say much of the international bodybuilding community felt that the reason stated above was inaccurate. Yes, being an American did not give anyone an automatic right to win anything, nor should it imo. They like every other nation, can go and compete and the best will win most times.
Again, no disrespect intended even though this sounds rude, but imo some European nations are beginning to hand out pro cards in figure like candy. No offence to Mercedes, but she never even won the Dutch Nationals once, and in the last European Amateur Champs she did not even make the top 15...yet now she is pro? That is becoming very prevalent in some nations with figure. IMO it is an insult to the Americans, Canadians and Central/South Americans that must work to earn theirs through winning top level contests, and also insulting to bodybuilders who don't seem to get cards granted so easily. I do feel cards should be earned, not passed as anything other diminishes the 'prestige' of a pro card.
Aint nobody try to diss this sexy chick! I'm a big fan of her physique and beauty. She earned her points for pro status and has accomplished what was needed and she earned it. Otherwise nobody would've considered her for pro status and she wouln't have gotten it if she didn't earn it. Look at her website, there was 1 point difference @ the first Nationals cause she didnt know how to pose yet and 3 points at the 2nd, cause the gal who 'won' trained with 2 of the judges. I followed the whole thing, nobody understood what happened. Here in the US all the top 3 girls at the Nationals earn a pro card. There are now only 2 pro figure girls in that entire country, ever. Can't exactly call that handing out pro cards like candy. There was barely a difference between M and the other gals who got 1st looking at the points. Looking at the pics there's no doubt MK had the show, and there's no denying of her physique and potential, thus the pro status. And looking at the pics I got from her website, the girl who "won" should have been disqualified! What the F*!!!! Aint nobody wanna see no cellulite on a fitness stage!
Get your story straight and educate yourself about what needs to be done to earn a pro card. Better yet. How about considering getting a gym membership first!
(http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q27/serpentine007/cellulite.jpg)
-
Not according to one of my magazines:
Due to the turbulent political climate in the Middle East, NPC president Jim Manion has decided not to have the NPC USA men's bodybuilding team compete in the IFBB World Amateur Bodybuilding Championships in Jordan this November. Upon speaking with the U.S. State Department in Washington, D.C., NPC President Manion was told by the State Department that all USA athletic teams are prime targets for terroristic threats and actions. Jim also feels that it is unfair to jeopardize the safety of the other countries attending the championships. - All Natural Muscular Development, April 1997 page 148.
That was the point I was making. The Team Universe guys did not go to the 1996 World Amateur Championships (Mr. Universe).
The term "less-than-friendly was not a reference to the judges of the show, but to the potential security risks (terroristic threats). If any Americans went to the Universe, they probably went on their own dime. From this article I quoted, Manion did not send the TU guys to compete.
Manion is so full of shit.
US citizens goes all over the world, every day.
But these bodybuilders are all of a sudden key targets?
WTF? Why not make up a better excuse for not sending a US Team.
-Hedge
-
Aint nobody try to diss this sexy chick! I'm a big fan of her physique and beauty. She earned her points for pro status and has accomplished what was needed and she earned it. Otherwise nobody would've considered her for pro status and she wouln't have gotten it if she didn't earn it. Look at her website, there was 1 point difference @ the first Nationals cause she didnt know how to pose yet and 3 points at the 2nd, cause the gal who 'won' trained with 2 of the judges. I followed the whole thing, nobody understood what happened. Here in the US all the top 3 girls at the Nationals earn a pro card. There are now only 2 pro figure girls in that entire country, ever. Can't exactly call that handing out pro cards like candy. There was barely a difference between M and the other gals who got 1st looking at the points. Looking at the pics there's no doubt MK had the show, and there's no denying of her physique and potential, thus the pro status. And looking at the pics I got from her website, the girl who "won" should have been disqualified! What the F*!!!! Aint nobody wanna see no cellulite on a fitness stage!
Get your story straight and educate yourself about what needs to be done to earn a pro card. Better yet. How about considering getting a gym membership first!
LOL, the last bit is quite hysterical considering my position. The irony just kills me. Thanks for the laugh ;D
I have the story straight, and I was not "dissing" anyone, merely stating my opinion. I have absolutely nothing negative to say on her physique, the only comments I have ever passed there are entirely positive, and I mean no offence at all on a personal level, I am merely discussing the politics involved. I simply don't see the fairness in an individual who did not win a national title or even place in an international competition getting a pro card, when many others have to actually win to achieve pro status.
Why was the 2nd place winner of a national show awarded pro status, and the winner was not? That seems rather backwards.
Moreso, if someone who placed 15th in their class at the European Championships was subsequently awarded pro status.......surely it is only fair that the 14 competitors who placed above them are also awarded pro status? I don't understand how 15th place person goes pro, but #1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,10,11,12,13, and 14 do not? I simply do not comprehend this. What about all the other people in other classes who placed 1st- 14th?
I think there should be clear cut guidelines to achieve pro status worldwide. The USA and Canada have clear cut guidelines in place for achieving pro status. With clear guidelines in place it would eliminate controversy and ensure equality for all competitors worldwide.
-
Manion is so full of shit.
US citizens goes all over the world, every day.
But these bodybuilders are all of a sudden key targets?
WTF? Why not make up a better excuse for not sending a US Team.
-Hedge
The other countries didn't want the US there for those reasons.
-
LOL, the last bit is quite hysterical considering my position. The irony just kills me. Thanks for the laugh ;D
I have the story straight, and I was not "dissing" anyone, merely stating my opinion. I have absolutely nothing negative to say on her physique, the only comments I have ever passed there are entirely positive, and I mean no offence at all on a personal level, I am merely discussing the politics involved. I simply don't see the fairness in an individual who did not win a national title or even place in an international competition getting a pro card, when many others have to actually win to achieve pro status.
Why was the 2nd place winner of a national show awarded pro status, and the winner was not? That seems rather backwards.
Moreso, if someone who placed 15th in their class at the European Championships was subsequently awarded pro status.......surely it is only fair that the 14 competitors who placed above them are also awarded pro status? I don't understand how 15th place person goes pro, but #1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,10,11,12,13, and 14 do not? I simply do not comprehend this. What about all the other people in other classes who placed 1st- 14th?
I think there should be clear cut guidelines to achieve pro status worldwide. The USA and Canada have clear cut guidelines in place for achieving pro status. With clear guidelines in place it would eliminate controversy and ensure equality for all competitors worldwide.
The pro ranks are watered out.
IFBB should award the winners and runner ups at the world champs pro cards, nobody else.
Right now, there are some 10 pro cards handed out every year for males in North America alone.
Ridiculous.
Make every country send their best guys to the world championships, hand out the pro cards there.
That way, the status of the world champs would sky rocket as well.
-Hedge
-
Why was the 2nd place winner of a national show awarded pro status, and the winner was not?
The pic I posted sais it all. Nuff said. Nr 1 and 2 by a difference of a few points doesn't make nr 2 a not good enough athlete. Politics sure are a big thing, in all sports btw. It's the reason why 'Cellulite Girl' won that show. What's important, is that the athletes who have the potential to do well as a pro turn pro.
Let's see how Mercedes will do when she competes as a pro, then we can discuss if the is a worthy component or not. Looking up the other figure pro of that country Mascha, that gal has only been Not Placed, if not placed last. So it's about time for the next generation to come along! New blood is always a good things. With men also, it all depends on the day, how you carb load etc to look the way you do that day. Nr 1, 3 and 4 may be sponsored my some major supp co. who sponsored that particular show and nr 2 may not be sponsored by anyone but be so impressive to get 2nd anyways. Doesn't mean nr 2 is less of an athlete. There are many factors involved in competing behind the schemes my friend. But ya can't deny the physiques and ya can't make athletes pro who do not have the potential for it, nomatter what placings, know waddi'm sayin'.
-
Manion is so full of shit.
US citizens goes all over the world, every day.
But these bodybuilders are all of a sudden key targets?
WTF? Why not make up a better excuse for not sending a US Team.
-Hedge
There is a big difference between a couple of US citizens, traveling on their own dimes, and a designated team from the USA, (advertised as such) going to an event like the World Amateur Championships/Mr. Universe. That same article from All-Natural Muscular Development stated that Israel pulled its Universe team for similar reasons, and that Manion felt it was unfair to jeopardize the safety of the other countries competing in that show, held in Jordan that year (1996)
Mr. Manion also spoke to Asher Frig, the President of the IFBB Israeli Federation, and they also will not be sending a team to compete.
My point was that the U.S. team, not going to the Universe, because of problems like this, is the reason that the Team Universe became a pro qualifier.
-
The pic I posted sais it all. Nuff said. Nr 1 and 2 by a difference of a few points doesn't make nr 2 a not good enough athlete. Politics sure are a big thing, in all sports btw. It's the reason why 'Cellulite Girl' won that show. What's important, is that the athletes who have the potential to do well as a pro turn pro.
Let's see how Mercedes will do when she competes as a pro, then we can discuss if the is a worthy component or not. Looking up the other figure pro of that country Mascha, that gal has only been Not Placed, if not placed last. So it's about time for the next generation to come along! New blood is always a good things. With men also, it all depends on the day, how you carb load etc to look the way you do that day. Nr 1, 3 and 4 may be sponsored my some major supp co. who sponsored that particular show and nr 2 may not be sponsored by anyone but be so impressive to get 2nd anyways. Doesn't mean nr 2 is less of an athlete. There are many factors involved in competing behind the schemes my friend. But ya can't deny the physiques and ya can't make athletes pro who do not have the potential for it, nomatter what placings, know waddi'm sayin'.
Good post and valid point.
I don't think it's a matter of her personally being worthy, I am not even disputing that, she looks great, its the methodology of handing out pro cards arbitrarily.
The European Champs, her highest level competion to date, is on somewhat par with the US Nats/NA's/Carib,Cent Americans/South Americans with the Worlds being above all. If pro cards are given to the 15th placer in a class, reasonably speaking 1st - 14th then also deserve a card. That is 5 shows per year, minimum 3 classes each, meaning 45 people per show = 225 pro cards [in figure alone!] per year. That is my overall point here. There are in excess of 200+ amateur figure competitors who placed higher in that one season worldwide, but yet they were not awarded pro cards?
Also the 2nd place national win, her highest placing at national level. Again, if we hand cards to the 2nd placer in a class in all nationals worldwide[which in fairness means #1 should get] that results in literally thousands of cards per year. I myself am an overall national champion, but of a smaller nation, which is simply incomparable to the USA Nationals due to the sheer size/population of the USA. There are in excess of 100 nations in the IFBB, I don't believe every nation is deserving of pro cards for 2nd placer in a class, which would result in approx 500 cards per year per division, totalling 2000 pro cards per year...if the same consideration as given to all.
She looks totally great yes, absolutely no dispute there, but so do many hundred of competitors worldwide. I just think there needs to be equality with the cards being given. For the record, I am not figure so this is not personal, I would just like to see established procedures set, and the 'prestige' of an IFBB pro card maintained by virtue of it being well earned, not given as in the PDI.
-
The pro ranks are watered out.
IFBB should award the winners and runner ups at the world champs pro cards, nobody else.
Right now, there are some 10 pro cards handed out every year for males in North America alone.
Ridiculous.
Make every country send their best guys to the world championships, hand out the pro cards there.
That way, the status of the world champs would sky rocket as well.
-Hedge
And how do you "make" these countries do this? Most competitors at the national level, in the USA, at least, compete for that pro card. If they get it at the Nationals, USA, or the North American Championships, they usually don't care about competing at the Universe, ESPECIALLY if there's drug-testing at the Universe.
As I said before, the last NPC Nationals team to go to the Universe was in 1990, headed by overall champion, light-heavyweight Alq Gurley.
The following year, Kevin Levrone didn't bother to go to the Universe, having already procured pro status (now, who exactly could have forced him to do so?). That's how a certain Texas cop, Ronnie Coleman, ended up going. He was the only one who placed high enough and was willing to do (or actually passed) the drug test. Coleman won the heavyweight class (there was no overall title that year) and got his IFBB card, qualifying to the 1992 Olympia, where he would place "16th". But, he ended up doing a bit better at the O, as the years went by.
Furthermore, I see about a dozen pro cards handed out in North America (all the weight class winners at the NPC Nationals, two weight class winners at the USA, one at the North American, two at the Canadian Nationals, and one at the Team Universe).
Runners-up in weight classes shouldn't get pro cards; they should only go to weight class winners. If the talent pool isn't deep enough, then only the overall champion should get the nod.
-
The pro ranks are watered out.
IFBB should award the winners and runner ups at the world champs pro cards, nobody else.
Right now, there are some 10 pro cards handed out every year for males in North America alone.
Ridiculous.
Make every country send their best guys to the world championships, hand out the pro cards there.
That way, the status of the world champs would sky rocket as well.
-Hedge
I agree !!
You speak out for all bodybuilders outdide the U.S.A
-
I agree !!
You speak out for all bodybuilders outdide the U.S.A
And what happens should the Americans dominate the pro ranks......WAIT A MINUTE!!
They already do that NOW!!!
-
And what happens should the Americans dominate the pro ranks......WAIT A MINUTE!!
They already do that NOW!!!
Umm, I should hope Americans dominates the pro ranks. The USA receive basically more cards per year than the rest of the world put together does.
The 38 combined nations [with almost double the population of the USA] of my region get 1 card per division per year, total 4.....where as the US a single nation gets almost 70 combined cards per year!
If they did not dominate the pro ranks, it would be embarrassing really. The majority of pro cards are available to US citizens only.
-
Umm, I should hope Americans dominates the pro ranks. The USA receive basically more cards per year than the rest of the world put together does.
The 38 combined nations [with almost double the population of the USA] of my region get 1 card per division per year, total 4.....where as the US a single nation gets almost 70 combined cards per year!
If they did not dominate the pro ranks, it would be embarrassing really. The majority of pro cards are available to US citizens only.
Perhaps, that's because the talent pool is a bit deeper in the USA, than in other areas.
-
Perhaps, that's because the talent pool is a bit deeper in the USA, than in other areas.
The USA simply gets more cards than the rest of the world combined, so as they have the majority of the pros they will take the majority of the wins. It is extremely simple.
With the US getting proportionately/population speaking 30/40 times the amount of pro cards our male bodybuilders do, they haven't actually in recent years won 30/40 times the shows, in one accounts for the few wins by Darrem and Gustavo and equate the variables, this region with the disparity of card availability actually does well. We are not being 'beat' 30/40 times over, despite the USA having 30/40 times the cards.
Also recall many amateurs come up through the ranks worldwide subjected to drug testing, whereas besides for Team U the US does not test...so there is that disparity as well.
-
The USA simply gets more cards than the rest of the world combined, so as they have the majority of the pros they will take the majority of the wins. It is extremely simple.
With the US getting proportionately/population speaking 30/40 times the amount of pro cards our male bodybuilders do, they haven't actually in recent years won 30/40 times the shows, in one accounts for the few wins by Darrem and Gustavo and equate the variables, this region with the disparity of card availability actually does well. We are not being 'beat' 30/40 times over, despite the USA having 30/40 times the cards.
Also recall many amateurs come up through the ranks worldwide subjected to drug testing, whereas besides for Team U the US does not test...so there is that disparity as well.
Where do you get "30/40 times the amount of pro cards"? By my count, the USA gives out about a dozen:
The NPC Nationals - 6 (all the weight class winners)
NPC USA - 2 (overall champion and one other weight class winner
IFBB North American - 1 (overall champion; however, this show is open to Canadian and Mecixan bodybuilders)
Team Universe - 1 (overall champion)
NPC Masters Nationals - 2 (overall champion and one other class winner).
Where are other 2 dozen or so pro cards of which you speak?
-
Where do you get "30/40 times the amount of pro cards"? By my count, the USA gives out about a dozen:
The NPC Nationals - 6 (all the weight class winners)
NPC USA - 2 (overall champion and one other weight class winner
IFBB North American - 1 (overall champion; however, this show is open to Canadian and Mecixan bodybuilders)
Team Universe - 1 (overall champion)
NPC Masters Nationals - 2 (overall champion and one other class winner).
Where are other 2 dozen or so pro cards of which you speak?
12, thanks I was not 100% sure. And we get 1. Then take into population variables as well. There is about 400-450 million *more* people here than the USA [in the 38 nations that make up region total that is eligible for the 1 card]
I wasn't referring to 30 "extra", I meant approx 30 "times". To simplify it we get 1 card per 700 million people. The US gets 1 card per 25 million people [using a gen pop of 300 million, with 12 cards] That is a huge disparity. If we were receiving 1 card per 25 million people, we would get aprrox 30 cards per year...hence how I came up with the 30 times, as the numbers done per capita allude to us getting 30 at the same ratio that the US does, but we get 1.
Those numbers aren't 'exact'..........but the general principle is sound......1 card for 700 million, 12 cards for 300 million.
-
Good post and valid point.
I don't think it's a matter of her personally being worthy, I am not even disputing that, she looks great, its the methodology of handing out pro cards arbitrarily.
The European Champs, her highest level competion to date, is on somewhat par with the US Nats/NA's/Carib,Cent Americans/South Americans with the Worlds being above all. If pro cards are given to the 15th placer in a class, reasonably speaking 1st - 14th then also deserve a card. That is 5 shows per year, minimum 3 classes each, meaning 45 people per show = 225 pro cards [in figure alone!] per year. That is my overall point here. There are in excess of 200+ amateur figure competitors who placed higher in that one season worldwide, but yet they were not awarded pro cards?
Also the 2nd place national win, her highest placing at national level. Again, if we hand cards to the 2nd placer in a class in all nationals worldwide[which in fairness means #1 should get] that results in literally thousands of cards per year. I myself am an overall national champion, but of a smaller nation, which is simply incomparable to the USA Nationals due to the sheer size/population of the USA. There are in excess of 100 nations in the IFBB, I don't believe every nation is deserving of pro cards for 2nd placer in a class, which would result in approx 500 cards per year per division, totalling 2000 pro cards per year...if the same consideration as given to all.
She looks totally great yes, absolutely no dispute there, but so do many hundred of competitors worldwide. I just think there needs to be equality with the cards being given. For the record, I am not figure so this is not personal, I would just like to see established procedures set, and the 'prestige' of an IFBB pro card maintained by virtue of it being well earned, not given as in the PDI.
CQ,
That's where you misunderstand. Europe doesn't decide who is good enough to turn pro in Holland. Holland does. And Mercedes defenitally lives up to that. She didn't have to have a certain placing at the European shows, just being invited for two international competitions is all that was needed. Why the other gals didn't turn pro, maybe they didn't go for it or the rules of their country might be different. Anyways. Ya better recognize! Her country did.
-
Sorry,guys
My English is not so perfect .
As a 30+years bodybuilder ,I know the rule of "IFBB Pro League" and NPC.......
But for a non-American,we always have 2 questions:
(1)Why US's Team Universe placements are so low in World Championships now?
in 2006,all USA athletes's placements almost last.-70kg was last!!!
Japan and our team have strict drug tests too(I was 2006 Taiwan national team coach ),but our placements better than USA !
It's impossible 20 years ago !!!!!
Since 1985 USA team's placements in World Championships have gotten worse !!!
(2)Why IFBB Pro League won't invite more foreign champions to get a pro-card ?
(According to rules:every class-winner of NPC Nationals can get pro-card .but class-winner of Asian Championships can not !)
##Anyone give me answer ?(please don't trolling)
........................ ........................ ........................ ........................
Last year I have finished my 735 pages Chinese edition bodybuilding book (pic as following)
Listen, Mr. Taiwan. I suggest your really stop mocking the US bodybuilders that represent us in the World Amateur Championships. The fact is, our Team Universe winners ARE natural, not only are they polygraphed, but they are also urine tested immediately after coming off of stage. That is number one. Number two, my asian friend, I know for a fact that not only you in Asia, but particularly the middle eastern regions, the athletes are not clean and natural and in many cases the actual government aids in the funding of the "enhancements" necessary as it is a great "honor" in those areas of the world to represent your country. And for your information, it is very common that most European and Middle Eastern athletes turn down their "pro cards" as they are more highly honored by their governments for representing their countries so admirably. We here in the U.S. do not receive this wonderful recognition from our president.
You say you want your national weight class winners recognized as professionals? Well, send them over here to compete against us at our nationals, we welcome the ass-kicking we(Americans) would hand out to you. How many top pros do you have competing? Other than Hiteda Yamagishi, you have uhmmmm, none! How does that sound?
Do yourself the favor mr. taiwan, do not mock our truly natural athletes. Our amateurs had they the same help in beating the drug tests that your athletes and the rest of the world's athletes do, would fair better. Jim Manion actually makes sure our athletes are clean, unlike your IFBB rep. who just wants to win at all costs so he looks like a genius. Then again, our athletes actually pride themselves in really being clean, you guys are a bunch of bullshitting, sack of shit, lying fuckers who pride yourselves in beating the system....... Hope this helps.
Carlo
2004 Mr. North America
2005 NPC Nationals 3rd place
-
Listen, Mr. Taiwan. I suggest your really stop mocking the US bodybuilders that represent us in the World Amateur Championships. The fact is, our Team Universe winners ARE natural, not only are they polygraphed, but they are also urine tested immediately after coming off of stage. That is number one. Number two, my asian friend, I know for a fact that not only you in Asia, but particularly the middle eastern regions, the athletes are not clean and natural and in many cases the actual government aids in the funding of the "enhancements" necessary as it is a great "honor" in those areas of the world to represent your country. And for your information, it is very common that most European and Middle Eastern athletes turn down their "pro cards" as they are more highly honored by their governments for representing their countries so admirably. We here in the U.S. do not receive this wonderful recognition from our president.
You say you want your national weight class winners recognized as professionals? Well, send them over here to compete against us at our nationals, we welcome the ass-kicking we(Americans) would hand out to you. How many top pros do you have competing? Other than Hiteda Yamagishi, you have uhmmmm, none! How does that sound?
Do yourself the favor mr. taiwan, do not mock our truly natural athletes. Our amateurs had they the same help in beating the drug tests that your athletes and the rest of the world's athletes do, would fair better. Jim Manion actually makes sure our athletes are clean, unlike your IFBB rep. who just wants to win at all costs so he looks like a genius. Then again, our athletes actually pride themselves in really being clean, you guys are a bunch of bullshitting, sack of shit, lying fuckers who pride yourselves in beating the system....... Hope this helps.
Carlo
2004 Mr. North America
2005 NPC Nationals 3rd place
MELTDOWN!
-
MELTDOWN!
Yeah of epoch proportions. ::)
-
The fact is, our Team Universe winners ARE natural, not only are they polygraphed, but they are also urine tested immediately after coming off of stage. That is number one.
Carlo
2004 Mr. North America
2005 NPC Nationals 3rd place
ROTFLMAO, what delusional world are you living in??
-
Yeah of epoch proportions. ::)
Huh :-\??
-
The fact is, our Team Universe winners ARE natural, not only are they polygraphed, but they are also urine tested immediately after coming off of stage.
And our athletes are so honest that no one has ever failed those urine and polygraph tests! No one has ever been DQed from Team Universe! No one has ever been caught cheating, even with a pro card on the line.
(translation: no one believes Team Universe winners are 3 years drug free as the rules require. no one believes that Manion and those in the NPC give anything more than lip service to the drug free rules.)
2004 Mr. North America
2005 NPC Nationals 3rd place
the title "Mr" is generally reserved for the overall winner, Carlo (http://musclememory.com/show.php?a=Filippone,+Carlo)
-
ROTFLMAO, what delusional world are you living in??
Are you kidding me? Take a good look at these guys? You believe the winners are not natural? Shows how delusional you are. I've been in this sport a long time. Competed with, ate with and spoken to most of these guys, the fact is and I assure you, the guys at team U. are clean. You all think Lockett is on the shit, well, I'll put it to you this way, everyone doubted Ronnie was clean when he turned pro, till.......... he actually got on the shit and then it showed! Ronnies actual words to me were when asked "what made him turn to drugs?" "I just got tired of working harder than everyone else and still getting my ass kicked." Funny how a couple of years later, after being a "nonfactor" in his first few years as a pro he became Mr. O. Ask Flex, Shawn and anybody else if they believed him after that. Recent example is Kai Greene, he turned pro at Team U. looked great natural, now 2 years later and on the shit, he's an olympia qualified athlete. The delusional world I live in is the real one my friend, I actually participate in this sport and can tell you like it is, if you don't believe it, well......... I can't help that. Sorry.
-
Are you kidding me? Take a good look at these guys? You believe the winners are not natural?
If they're bigger, harder, more ripped than the pros of the 1970s and 1980, who were all juiced to the gills, then yes it is unlikely that the winners of Team U are natural.
-
And our athletes are so honest that no one has ever failed those urine and polygraph tests! No one has ever been DQed from Team Universe! No one has ever been caught cheating.
(translation: no one believes Team Universe winners are 3 years drug free as the rules require. no one believes that Manion and those in the NPC give anything more than lip service to the drug free rules.)
Quite the contrary, translation:
After Darry Thornton went to the World Championships and was disqualified for testing positive, it was made very clear that you would not turn pro if you embarrassed the NPC.
I guess you would have to be a competitor to know and understand this.
And the fact is there have been competitors disqualified for failing the drug tests... I'm not telling you they are all honest, we know that's not the case, but take a good look at our athletes versus the world's......... The rest of the world amateurs look like our NPC nationals competitors, not the team u's.
btw, they usually do not urine test and re-polygraph test the competitors out of the top 5.
Carlo
-
If they're bigger, harder, more ripped than the pros of the 1970s and 1980, who were all juiced to the gills, then yes it is unlikely that the winners of Team U are natural.
You really need to take a closer look at the photos. We are talking about the npc team universe, correct? In my recollection, Mike Lockett, Kai Greene and Jose Raymond. Are the only bodybuilders who you would even compare to those of the 70's and 80's. We had a guy win the welters class named Jose Oquendo who 2 years ago couldn't win his class at a local show. I can understand how you would doubt the 3 I mentioned, but the others? Come on, i'm serious, match up the winners of team u with those of the nats., there is a huge disparity.
Carlo
-
Are you kidding me? Take a good look at these guys? You believe the winners are not natural? Shows how delusional you are. I've been in this sport a long time. Competed with, ate with and spoken to most of these guys, the fact is and I assure you, the guys at team U. are clean. You all think Lockett is on the shit, well, I'll put it to you this way, everyone doubted Ronnie was clean when he turned pro, till.......... he actually got on the shit and then it showed! Ronnies actual words to me were when asked "what made him turn to drugs?" "I just got tired of working harder than everyone else and still getting my ass kicked." Funny how a couple of years later, after being a "nonfactor" in his first few years as a pro he became Mr. O. Ask Flex, Shawn and anybody else if they believed him after that. Recent example is Kai Greene, he turned pro at Team U. looked great natural, now 2 years later and on the shit, he's an olympia qualified athlete. The delusional world I live in is the real one my friend, I actually participate in this sport and can tell you like it is, if you don't believe it, well......... I can't help that. Sorry.
Not everyone from the USA competed naturally. Give me a break. If the rest of the world knows how to get around the tests I am sure the US knows the same secrets.
Musclecenter is not acting like a jerk. You seem to be getting your posing trunks in a wad.
-
You really need to take a closer look at the photos. We are talking about the npc team universe, correct? In my recollection, Mike Lockett, Kai Greene and Jose Raymond.
yes, Kai Greene. When I would see him occasionally at Johnny Lats in NYC in 1999, I didn't believe for a second he was natural. Didn't beleive he was natural either in 2004. And you don't go from lifetime natural to winning an IFBB pro show in 3 years no matter how much stuff you use now.
sure some of the winners of the lighter weight classes could be drug free, but not the upper weight classes.
But you wrote
The fact is, our Team Universe winners ARE natural, not only are they polygraphed, but they are also urine tested immediately after coming off of stage.
so that means that Kai was tested, and passed.
if someone actually failed the test and was DQed, then those who are clean would have a little more credibility.
-
yes, Kai Greene. When I would see him occasionally at Johnny Lats in NYC in 1999, I didn't believe for a second he was natural. Didn't beleive he was natural either in 2004. And you don't go from lifetime natural to winning an IFBB pro show in 3 years no matter how much stuff you use now.
sure some of the winners of the lighter weight classes could be drug free, but not the upper weight classes.
I trained at Johnny Lats once when I was on a buying trip in NYC during that time.
-
Not everyone from the USA competed naturally. Give me a break. If the rest of the world knows how to get around the tests I am sure the US knows the same secrets.
Musclecenter is not acting like a jerk. You seem to be getting your posing trunks in a wad.
Not exactly what I meant. What I implied was that it is more acceptable to lie and deny in the foreign countries, our team u athletes do not take the risk of getting caught, trust me! Or don't trust me, I have no reason to stick up for any of them, I am just telling you what I know, but then again, what would I know, you obviously know better ;)
btw, you'd be amazed at what the rest of the world knows. some of the guys from overseas i've interacted with(top guys in the mideast) actually laugh at us when they hear some of the things we don't know.
And i'm gonna disagree, musclecenter is putting down the u.s. athletes blatantly, which, if i didn't know them personally(and know that they are clean), then maybe i wouldn't take it as personal. And yes, come to think of it my trunks are a bit tight. lol.
Carlo
-
You really need to take a closer look at the photos. We are talking about the npc team universe, correct? In my recollection, Mike Lockett, Kai Greene and Jose Raymond. Are the only bodybuilders who you would even compare to those of the 70's and 80's. We had a guy win the welters class named Jose Oquendo who 2 years ago couldn't win his class at a local show. I can understand how you would doubt the 3 I mentioned, but the others? Come on, i'm serious, match up the winners of team u with those of the nats., there is a huge disparity.
Carlo
Are you natural?
-
yes, Kai Greene. When I would see him occasionally at Johnny Lats in NYC in 1999, I didn't believe for a second he was natural. Didn't beleive he was natural either in 2004. And you don't go from lifetime natural to winning an IFBB pro show in 3 years no matter how much stuff you use now.
sure some of the winners of the lighter weight classes could be drug free, but not the upper weight classes.
But you wrote
so that means that Kai was tested, and passed.
if someone actually failed the test and was DQed, then those who are clean would have a little more credibility.
Actually, I was there as soon as Kai got off stage when he won the overall. He was walked into a room with Lou (whatever) the same guy who polygraphed Charles Manson and repolygraphed and gave a urine sample. I'm not sure if you are familiar with the structure of the drug testing. The athletes are polygraphed before the show. Those who do not pass, do not compete, they are automatically disqualified... This happens every year, that is why you don't hear of someone "failing." They usually don't make it to the stage because they've failed the initial polygraph. After the show, all weight class winners drop their trophies and are escorted to a polygraph testing room, retested and give a urine sample under superivision. Maybe this helps.
Listen guys, I'm not naive nor am I defending anybody, I don't need to do that. I'm not telling you that guys don't get over, but it's not many I assure you, otherwise, why wouldn't we have our national champs at the world championships?
Carlo
-
Are you natural?
No. How about yourself?
Carlo
-
The athletes are polygraphed before the show. Those who do not pass, do not compete, they are automatically disqualified... This happens every year, that is why you don't hear of someone "failing." They usually don't make it to the stage because they've failed the initial polygraph. After the show, all weight class winners drop their trophies and are escorted to a polygraph testing room, retested and give a urine sample under superivision.
anyone can pass a polygraph test. and it takes weeks to get back the results of a urine test. But no one in Team U has been DQed for failing a urine test. Not to mention that urine tests are easy to get around as well. Now, with that pro card going to the winner of Team U, there is even more incentive to ignore the drug free rules.
the only way you can have truly drug free bodybuilding is year round random drug tests. but at $200 a sample, no one is going to pay for that.
Your initial premise, that Americans don't do well at the IFBB Worlds because we're honest and the rest of the world are cheats, just isn't believable. Americans don't do well at the Worlds because our top athletes are more interested in getting a pro card. Yes to compete at the worlds, you have to give lip service to the drug free requirements. But our top athletes aren't even willing to do that. Even though steroids are illegal in the US while legal in most of the rest of the world, our top athletes take massive amounts just for a chance at that pro card. The top bodybuilders in many Asian countries have no real interest in turning pro because they already make more as an amateur, through government subsides, etc, than they could ever make as a pro.
-
anyone can pass a polygraph test. and it takes weeks to get back the results of a urine test. But no one in Team U has been DQed for failing a urine test. Not to mention that urine tests are easy to get around as well. Now, with that pro card going to the winner of Team U, there is even more incentive to ignore the drug free rules.
the only way you can have truly drug free bodybuilding is year round random drug tests. but at $200 a sample, no one is going to pay for that.
Your initial premise, that Americans don't do well at the IFBB Worlds because we're honest and the rest of the world are cheats, just isn't believable. Americans don't do well at the Worlds because our top athletes are more interested in getting a pro card. Yes to compete at the worlds, you have to give lip service to the drug free requirements. But our top athletes aren't even willing to do that. Even though steroids are illegal in the US while legal in most of the rest of the world, our top athletes take massive amounts just for a chance at that pro card. The top bodybuilders in many Asian countries have no real interest in turning pro because they already make more as an amateur, through government subsides, etc, than they could ever make as a pro.
That was very well said.....
I can tell you that in the past 4 years, I know that at least 10 of the class winners are totally natural. I don't know all of them, but some of them, I won't mention names, but I do assure you that some of our athletes are in fact clean. You can believe it or not... Why would I protect someone else?
Stay well,
Carlo
-
I can tell you that in the past 4 years, I know that at least 10 of the class winners are totally natural. I don't know all of them, but some of them, I won't mention names, but I do assure you that some of our athletes are in fact clean. You can believe it or not... Why would I protect someone else?
It is fine to say that some are natural. I'm sure some are. But you said TU and the NPC take drug testing very seriously and therefore every class winner of TU is drug free. That is simply not believable.
-
It is fine to say that some are natural. I'm sure some are. But you said TU and the NPC take drug testing very seriously and therefore every class winner of TU is drug free. That is simply not believable.
I guess i'll put it this way then, the npc and tu MAY take the drug testing "more serious" than our counterparts overseas. Which, that being said, may be the reason our athletes do not place better. I don't remember where I stated that I believed "every" class winner is drug free, but I still believe "most" at Team U. are drug free. I don't believe that that makes me delusional.....
Carlo :)
-
anyone can pass a polygraph test. and it takes weeks to get back the results of a urine test. But no one in Team U has been DQed for failing a urine test. Not to mention that urine tests are easy to get around as well. Now, with that pro card going to the winner of Team U, there is even more incentive to ignore the drug free rules.
the only way you can have truly drug free bodybuilding is year round random drug tests. but at $200 a sample, no one is going to pay for that.
Your initial premise, that Americans don't do well at the IFBB Worlds because we're honest and the rest of the world are cheats, just isn't believable. Americans don't do well at the Worlds because our top athletes are more interested in getting a pro card. Yes to compete at the worlds, you have to give lip service to the drug free requirements. But our top athletes aren't even willing to do that. Even though steroids are illegal in the US while legal in most of the rest of the world, our top athletes take massive amounts just for a chance at that pro card. The top bodybuilders in many Asian countries have no real interest in turning pro because they already make more as an amateur, through government subsides, etc, than they could ever make as a pro.
Agree !
I am here very serious about bodybuilding issues (no trolling or jerk)
Maybe I find one of my gym's member(American) to post my opinions
-
I am Dan, an American here in Taiwan. I am here w my good friend, the former Mr. Taiwan.
First of all, there is no need to curse and use profanity towards our Taiwanese friends.
Secondly, my friend here is merely trying to explain that the world champion competition would be a lot more exciting and more challenging if Americans Top bodybuilders would enter the competition (similar to the World Cup and Olympics).
He has explained to me that during the early 80s when he was competing, Americans were very formidable. Now the rest of world has lost a lot of respect for American bodybuilders in World Championships as they often fall in very low placements. What can Americans do to regain their reputation on the world stage?
-
Carlo,has been around jersey bbing seen long time and a good bber himself.he has probably trained with plenty of clean and non naturals .he at least has respect for both .if he believes it can be done legit and competitiors are on the same level than that's it.in any sport u will have your cheaters .it's the unnaturals that say their clean that make you go mmmmm....
-
I just want to add...... i know of 3 people who i know for 11100000% fact juiced up for the team U and knew how to beat the test (one of them even got shit from my buddie). I watched them compete on stage before my very eyes. SO um..... everyone in Team U natural? TOTAL BS
-
Carlo...you are so right. Unfortunately, you are the one of the very, very few who has gotten close enough to see the difference. Big mouthed, so-called experts like timmfogarty--who know nothing expect for what they see from their homo-sexed perspective--do all the talking.
-
And our athletes are so honest that no one has ever failed those urine and polygraph tests! No one has ever been DQed from Team Universe! No one has ever been caught cheating, even with a pro card on the line.
(translation: no one believes Team Universe winners are 3 years drug free as the rules require. no one believes that Manion and those in the NPC give anything more than lip service to the drug free rules.)
the title "Mr" is generally reserved for the overall winner, Carlo (http://musclememory.com/show.php?a=Filippone,+Carlo)
I thought the TU competitors only had to be drug-free for one year.
I just want to add...... i know of 3 people who i know for 11100000% fact juiced up for the team U and knew how to beat the test (one of them even got shit from my buddie). I watched them compete on stage before my very eyes. SO um..... everyone in Team U natural? TOTAL BS
Names would be nice.
-
I thought the TU competitors only had to be drug-free for one year.
Names would be nice.
Names WOULD be nice, but first off im not a rat, second off i either know them or they are friends of friends. How dick would that be of me to call them out, especially when they probably plan to compete there in the future. I dont condone it, as i myself compete in non tested shows, but i will not out a person i know.... sorry lets just say 2 of them have placed top 4 in the past 2 TU's
-
If they're bigger, harder, more ripped than the pros of the 1970s and 1980, who were all juiced to the gills, then yes it is unlikely that the winners of Team U are natural.
1) By and large, The TU guys don't look bigger than pros from the 70s and 80s to me.
2) The TU guys being harder isn't necessarily an indicator of drug use. Remember that in the old days, bodybuilders used to get marked down for appearing too ripped at a contest. From what I've read, that happened to Franco Columbu and Vince Gironda.
I am Dan, an American here in Taiwan. I am here w my good friend, the former Mr. Taiwan.
First of all, there is no need to curse and use profanity towards our Taiwanese friends.
Secondly, my friend here is merely trying to explain that the world champion competition would be a lot more exciting and more challenging if Americans Top bodybuilders would enter the competition (similar to the World Cup and Olympics).
He has explained to me that during the early 80s when he was competing, Americans were very formidable. Now the rest of world has lost a lot of respect for American bodybuilders in World Championships as they often fall in very low placements. What can Americans do to regain their reputation on the world stage?
Your friend forgot to explain a few things.
1) In the 80s, the class winners of the NPC Nationals represented the USA at the Universe. That's why they were so formidable. If I recall correctly, guys like Lee Haney, Bob Paris, and Gary Strydom were among the names of NPC National champs who went on to win their classes (if not the overall) at the Universe.
2) When the IFBB introduced drug-testing at the Universe in 1990, the NPC Nationals did the same. That was, however, the only time the Nationals was tested. Coincidentally (or not), the last time the NPC Nationals winners sent a team to the Univese was 1990, headed by overall champion, Alq Gurley (who, I think, won his class there).
3) In 1991, no official testing was done to field a Universe team. However, the NPC asked if anyone was interested in going to the Universe. Those who volunteered were drug-tested. Many of you know that, among the heavyweights, the highest placing guy who volunteered to go and pass the drug-test was Ronnie Coleman. He won his class at the World Championships, earned a pro card, and qualified for the 1992 Olympia.
By and large, the NPC Nationals class winners don't care about going to the World Amateur Championships/Universe, because they already have their pro cards and don't want to submit to any drug screening.
The Team Universe was created to solve that problem, thus making a desginated team to go to the World Championships. As I stated before, the TU became a pro qualifier itself, when the Universe kept being held in countries where the NPC felt there'd be a security risk to the American team.
-
Names WOULD be nice, but first off im not a rat, second off i either know them or they are friends of friends. How dick would that be of me to call them out, especially when they probably plan to compete there in the future. I dont condone it, as i myself compete in non tested shows, but i will not out a person i know.... sorry lets just say 2 of them have placed top 4 in the past 2 TU's
I said that, because I find it strange that some folks here have no problem claiming that they (or someone they know) have either sold anabolics to (or seen them used by) one Skip LaCour.
Therefore, I don't see why your alleged acquaintance are off limits.
-
1) By and large, The TU guys don't look bigger than pros from the 70s and 80s to me.
2) The TU guys being harder isn't necessarily an indicator of drug use. Remember that in the old days, bodybuilders used to get marked down for appearing too ripped at a contest. From what I've read, that happened to Franco Columbu and Vince Gironda.
Your friend forgot to explain a few things.
1) In the 80s, the class winners of the NPC Nationals represented the USA at the Universe. That's why they were so formidable. If I recall correctly, guys like Lee Haney, Bob Paris, and Gary Strydom were among the names of NPC National champs who went on to win their classes (if not the overall) at the Universe.
2) When the IFBB introduced drug-testing at the Universe in 1990, the NPC Nationals did the same. That was, however, the only time the Nationals was tested. Coincidentally (or not), the last time the NPC Nationals winners sent a team to the Univese was 1990, headed by overall champion, Alq Gurley (who, I think, won his class there).
3) In 1991, no official testing was done to field a Universe team. However, the NPC asked if anyone was interested in going to the Universe. Those who volunteered were drug-tested. Many of you know that, among the heavyweights, the highest placing guy who volunteered to go and pass the drug-test was Ronnie Coleman. He won his class at the World Championships, earned a pro card, and qualified for the 1992 Olympia.
By and large, the NPC Nationals class winners don't care about going to the World Amateur Championships/Universe, because they already have their pro cards and don't want to submit to any drug screening.
The Team Universe was created to solve that problem, thus making a desginated team to go to the World Championships. As I stated before, the TU became a pro qualifier itself, when the Universe kept being held in countries where the NPC felt there'd be a security risk to the American team.
Great points. I'm glad you pointed them out. Am I the only one that thought "musclecenter" was a bit sarcastic with his questioning of the americans placings?
Carlo
-
Great points. I'm glad you pointed them out. Am I the only one that thought "musclecenter" was a bit sarcastic with his questioning of the americans placings?
Carlo
Sorry guys,
I admit my comment was a little bit sarcastic, but ultimately I hope Americans do regain their reputation on the world Championships.
-
Sorry guys,
I admit my comment was a little bit sarcastic, but ultimately I hope Americans do regain their reputation on the world Championships.
I appreciate your acknowledgement, however, bear in mind, Americans already are the most highly regarded bodybuilders in the world on a Professional level. I am sure most people will agree with that.
Carlo
-
I appreciate your acknowledgement, however, bear in mind, Americans already are the most highly regarded bodybuilders in the world on a Professional level. I am sure most people will agree with that.
here is the list of people currently qualified for the 2007 Olympia, as listed on the IFBB website. Considering the number of pro cards given to Americans compared to the rest of the world, and that almost all pro contests are held here, I think the non-Americans are holding their own.
Eddie Abbew (United Kingdom)
Melvin Anthony (USA)
Gustavo Badell (Puerto Rico)
Darrem Charles (Trinidad)
Ronnie Coleman (USA)
Jay Cutler (USA)
Mark Dugdale (USA)
Toney Freeman (USA)
Kai Greene (USA)
Marcus Haley (USA)
Phil Heath (USA)
Dexter Jackson (USA)
Dennis James (Germany)
Victor Martinez (Dominican Republic)
Desmond Miller (USA)
Ronnie Rockel (Germany)
Markus Ruhl (Germany)
Silvio Samuel (Spain)
Sergey Shelestov (Russia)
Vince Taylor (USA)
Branch Warren (USA)
Dennis Wolf (Germany)
Hidetada Yamagishi (Japan)
Now I'm not sure I agree with all the countries. Victor grew up in Washington Heights, Dennis James is a US citizen by birth, Silvio was born in Brazil, and Badell was born in Venezuela.
-
I have changed this thread's name
-
here is the list of people currently qualified for the 2007 Olympia, as listed on the IFBB website. Considering the number of pro cards given to Americans compared to the rest of the world, and that almost all pro contests are held here, I think the non-Americans are holding their own.
Eddie Abbew (United Kingdom)
Melvin Anthony (USA)
Gustavo Badell (Puerto Rico)
Darrem Charles (Trinidad)
Ronnie Coleman (USA)
Jay Cutler (USA)
Mark Dugdale (USA)
Toney Freeman (USA)
Kai Greene (USA)
Marcus Haley (USA)
Phil Heath (USA)
Dexter Jackson (USA)
Dennis James (Germany)
Victor Martinez (Dominican Republic)
Desmond Miller (USA)
Ronnie Rockel (Germany)
Markus Ruhl (Germany)
Silvio Samuel (Spain)
Sergey Shelestov (Russia)
Vince Taylor (USA)
Branch Warren (USA)
Dennis Wolf (Germany)
Hidetada Yamagishi (Japan)
Now I'm not sure I agree with all the countries. Victor grew up in Washington Heights, Dennis James is a US citizen by birth, Silvio was born in Brazil, and Badell was born in Venezuela.
Agreed Tim.
A far as the drug testing, I don't know if my country goes mad with it or something, but we are tested pretty stringently. Urine tests for all winners plus random competitors at National level, we are subject to random testing [24 hrs notice only] throughout the year etc. To even enter the pro-q for our region you must show evidence of passing a drug test, and class winners are taken immediately off stage to be restested right after the show. You fail the test, you loose your placing and receive a ban. In my nation [not the entire region] a failed drug test means you are banned from all sporting events...you can't enter a road race/tennis match etc either. It's pretty serious where I am. I am not suggesting that everyone onstage is 100% natural [lol] but I would honestly say the majority are in my nation, and even within the region I would say a lower percentage are, but still the majority.
Of course for us it is different. I mean how many people at Team U are 'really' natural? For me, I don't have any qualms about competing natty as most the people I am up againest are.
Not exactly what I meant. What I implied was that it is more acceptable to lie and deny in the foreign countries,
::)
CQ,
That's where you misunderstand. Europe doesn't decide who is good enough to turn pro in Holland. Holland does. And Mercedes defenitally lives up to that. She didn't have to have a certain placing at the European shows, just being invited for two international competitions is all that was needed. Why the other gals didn't turn pro, maybe they didn't go for it or the rules of their country might be different. Anyways. Ya better recognize! Her country did.
No man, I do understand the dynamics of how one can go pro, I've been in this game for well over a decade.....I just don't agree with it. Like I said, it is undeniable to state that over 200 competitors placed better than her that season. I just don't feel we should let nations decide at their own whim. With the 150 odd nations if they all decide to just make anyone pro they feel like, we would end up with thousands of pros a year. Bottom line here, someone who did not ever win their nationals and placed dead last in an amateur international competition........went pro. If one looks at it objectively, not as a fan or friend [as you appear to be] that is not a fair system. Last place goes pro, but #1,2,3,4 etc does not? I just feel it should be fair for all people competing worldwide. Again, no offence meant to you or her, just speaking on the politics.
-
Michael Lockett (2007 Junior Nationals overallwinner) was the overall winner of US Team Universe 2006, too, but he only placed 12th in the 2006 Super Heavyweight World Championships in the Czech Republic .
How could he earn a Pro Card last year ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
discuss
When do you think a Japanese BBer will ever become Mr. O let alone win a third tier professional show. ::) ::)
-
When do you think a Japanese BBer will ever become Mr. O let alone a third tier professional show. ::) ::)
You mean Hidetada Yamagishi ?
I think that his possible highest placement in 2007 Olympia is 10th or 12th...16th...only ;D ;D
-
You mean Hidetada Yamagishi ?
I think that his possible highest placement in 2007 Olympia is 10th or 12th...16th...only ;D ;D
I don't see him placing unless he nails his conditioning and some others come in looking bad.
-
here is the list of people currently qualified for the 2007 Olympia, as listed on the IFBB website. Considering the number of pro cards given to Americans compared to the rest of the world, and that almost all pro contests are held here, I think the non-Americans are holding their own.
Eddie Abbew (United Kingdom)
Melvin Anthony (USA)
Gustavo Badell (Puerto Rico)
Darrem Charles (Trinidad)
Ronnie Coleman (USA)
Jay Cutler (USA)
Mark Dugdale (USA)
Toney Freeman (USA)
Kai Greene (USA)
Marcus Haley (USA)
Phil Heath (USA)
Dexter Jackson (USA)
Dennis James (Germany)
Victor Martinez (Dominican Republic)
Desmond Miller (USA)
Ronnie Rockel (Germany)
Markus Ruhl (Germany)
Silvio Samuel (Spain)
Sergey Shelestov (Russia)
Vince Taylor (USA)
Branch Warren (USA)
Dennis Wolf (Germany)
Hidetada Yamagishi (Japan)
Now I'm not sure I agree with all the countries. Victor grew up in Washington Heights, Dennis James is a US citizen by birth, Silvio was born in Brazil, and Badell was born in Venezuela.
Not to mention, Darrem Charles has lived in Florida for years; so it's likely that he is a U.S. citizen.
-
There is another simple reason:
The IFBB is controlled by its president Raphael Santonja, who is from Spain.
The IFBB Pro Leage is controlled by Jim Manion. He never really travels abroad.