When Americans reclaim the Amateur World Championships ?.

[TooPowerful4u]

When will the Team USA win the World Amateur Championships like Lee Haney did in 1982 ??
If they can't claim the title,it would be pretty sad !!
I hope they don't get last place again !!

How come when the Europeans/Asians enter the IFBB they disappear?  Look what hapened to Federov LOL

[timfogarty]

How come when the Europeans/Asians enter the IFBB they disappear?  Look what hapened to Federov LOL

Dennis Wolf won the 2005 IFBB World Amateur Championships

Hidetada Yamagishi, Tamer El Shahat, Ahmad Haidar, Armin Scholz, Martin Kjellstrom, Oliver Adzievski

[MCWAY]

Michael Lockett (2007 Junior Nationals overallwinner) was the overall winner of US Team Universe 2006, too, but he only placed 12th in the 2006 Super Heavyweight World Championships in the Czech Republic .
How could he earn a Pro Card last year

discuss

In the late 90s and early 2000s, the Universe shows were held in countries that were less-than-friendly to the USA. The Team Universe winners never got to compete in the Universe (aka World Amateur Bodybuilding Championships). To make up for that, the Team Universe show became a pro qualifier in 2003. Therefore, the overall winner gets a pro card. Previous winners (i.e. Skip LaCour and Greg Rando) got grandfathered into IFBB pro eligibility, as well.
Rando competes in the IFBB; LaCour does not.

Now, the TU class winners are competing in the Mr. Universe shows. But, the rule is still in effect, regarding the overall TU champion getting a pro card.

[timfogarty]

In the late 90s and early 2000s, the Universe shows were held in countries that were less-than-friendly to the USA. The Team Universe winners never got to compete in the Universe (aka World Amateur Bodybuilding Championships).

1995    Guam, 4 Americans placed in top 15 of 6 classes
1996    Amman, Jordan, no Americans placed in top 6 of 6 classes
1997    Prague, Czech Republic, 6 Americans placed in top 10 of 6 classes
1998    Izmir, Turkey, 1 American placed in top 15 of 6 classes
1999    Bratislava, Slovakia, 4 Americans placed in top 15 of 6 classes
2000    Malacca, Malaysia, 2 Americans placed in top 6 of 6 classes
2001    Yangon, Myanmar, no Americans placed in top 15 of 7 classes
2002    Cairo, Egypt, no Americans placed in top 15 of 6 classes
2003    Mumbai, India, no Americans placed in top 15 of 7 classes
2004    Moscow, Russia, no Americans placed in top 15 of 7 classes
2005   Shanghai, China, 6 Americans placed in top 15 of 7 classes

Only 2001 and 2002 did the USA team skip the World Amateur Championships because of security concerns.

[CQ]

In the late 90s and early 2000s, the Universe shows were held in countries that were less-than-friendly to the USA. The Team Universe winners never got to compete in the Universe (aka World Amateur Bodybuilding Championships). To make up for that, the Team Universe show became a pro qualifier in 2003. Therefore, the overall winner gets a pro card. Previous winners (i.e. Skip LaCour and Greg Rando) got grandfathered into IFBB pro eligibility, as well.
Rando competes in the IFBB; LaCour does not.

Now, the TU class winners are competing in the Mr. Universe shows. But, the rule is still in effect, regarding the overall TU champion getting a pro card.

With all due respect, I can say much of the international bodybuilding community felt that the reason stated above was inaccurate. Yes, being an American did not give anyone an automatic right to win anything, nor should it imo. They like every other nation, can go and compete and the best will win most times.

Mercedes Khani is pro now on recommendation from the dutch federation even though she never won anything major.
They believe she can represent Holland in pro figure contests together with Mascha Tieken who is a pro for a few years now

Again, no disrespect intended even though this sounds rude, but imo some European nations are beginning to hand out pro cards in figure like candy. No offence to Mercedes, but she never even won the Dutch Nationals once, and in the last European Amateur Champs she did not even make the top 15...yet now she is pro? That is becoming very prevalent in some nations with figure. IMO it is an insult to the Americans, Canadians and Central/South Americans that must work to earn theirs through winning top level contests, and also insulting to bodybuilders who don't seem to get cards granted so easily. I do feel cards should be earned, not passed as anything other diminishes the 'prestige' of a pro card.

[timfogarty]

Again, no disrespect intended even though this sounds rude, but imo some European nations are beginning to hand out pro cards in figure like candy. No offence to Mercedes, but she never even won the Dutch Nationals once, and in the last European Amateur Champs she did not even make the top 15...yet now she is pro? That is becoming very prevalent in some nations with figure. IMO it is an insult to the Americans, Canadians and Central/South Americans that must work to earn theirs through winning top level contests, and also insulting to bodybuilders who don't seem to get cards granted so easily. I do feel cards should be earned, not passed as anything other diminishes the 'prestige' of a pro card.

Figure:

NPC Junior USA - top 2 receive a pro card
NPC Junior Nationals - winner of each of 6 height classes
NPC Nationals - top 2 in each of 6 height classes
NPC Masters Nationals - overall winner
NPC USA - winner of each of 6 height classes
IFBB North America - top 2

for a total of 29 pro cards handed out every year to figure competitors

[CQ]

Figure:

NPC Junior USA - top 2 receive a pro card
NPC Junior Nationals - winner of each of 6 height classes
NPC Nationals - top 2 in each of 6 height classes
NPC Masters Nationals - overall winner
NPC USA - winner of each of 6 height classes
IFBB North America - top 2

for a total of 29 pro cards handed out every year to figure competitors

That is many, personally I think far too many for one nation as I have posted before, but at least the Americans earn them as those shows are full of quality competitors, and they are not gifted the card.

Tim, you're the man that would know, how does that compare to the amounts handed out to bodybuilding and fitness in the USA?

[HowieW]

You're not mentioning the fact that most countries don't have drug testing at the national level.

Team Universe is, at least on paper (Hello MattT!), a natural competition.

That's the biggest reason why USA isn't doing well in these competitions.

Best solution would obviously be if the NPC Nationals winners would go to the World Championships, and there they would try to win their pro card.

This is of course never gonna happen, as NPC won't freely give up the dozen or so pro cards their allowed to hand out each year.

-Hedge

The Team U was "invented" to be the drug tested nationals that would pick the USA team for the amatuer IFBB worlds. The nationals used to be used and the class winners would go. Ronnie was not close to winning the nationals as a HVY wt when he was selected to go for the USA team and he was the ONLY heavy wt willing to submit to the urine drug test. He won the hvy wt worlds and then got his pro card.

The team U has the best "natural" guys this country has in the NPC. This is not the best future pros however.
Any guy serious about making a pro career is already into the juice long before he wins his pro card at the NPC nationals now. The Team U winners often have great physiques but they are not our absolute best.

[timfogarty]

Tim, you're the man that would know, how does that compare to the amounts handed out to bodybuilding and fitness in the USA?

I don't think there are 29 fitness competitors in the whole USA.   But you get two for each [of 3] classes for the Nationals, Junior Nationals, and Team Universe, for a total of 18.

For bodybuilding, I count 12 for men and 8 for women.

[edited because I can't multipy]

[timfogarty]

The team U has the best "natural" guys this country has in the NPC. This is not the best future pros however.
Any guy serious about making a pro career is already into the juice long before he wins his pro card at the NPC nationals now. The Team U winners often have great physiques but they are not our absolute best.

Yet, amazingly, Kai Greene, TU winner 1999 and 2004, was able to go from life time natural to winning the Colorado Pro in only 3 years.

[CQ]

there aren't 29 fitness competitors in the whole USA.   But you get two for each class for the Nationals, Junior Nationals, and Team Universe, for a total of 9.

For bodybuilding, I count 12 for men and 8 for women.

Thanks Tim.

Interesting....the total number of cards for 3 divisions [men bb, fem bb, fit] equals the amount of pro cards for the remaining division of figure.

[mwbbuilder]

1995    Guam, 4 Americans placed in top 15 of 6 classes
1996    Amman, Jordan, no Americans placed in top 6 of 6 classes
1997    Prague, Czech Republic, 6 Americans placed in top 10 of 6 classes
1998    Izmir, Turkey, 1 American placed in top 15 of 6 classes
1999    Bratislava, Slovakia, 4 Americans placed in top 15 of 6 classes
2000    Malacca, Malaysia, 2 Americans placed in top 6 of 6 classes
2001    Yangon, Myanmar, no Americans placed in top 15 of 7 classes
2002    Cairo, Egypt, no Americans placed in top 15 of 6 classes
2003    Mumbai, India, no Americans placed in top 15 of 7 classes
2004    Moscow, Russia, no Americans placed in top 15 of 7 classes
2005   Shanghai, China, 6 Americans placed in top 15 of 7 classes

Only 2001 and 2002 did the USA team skip the World Amateur Championships because of security concerns.

I don't about the accuraccy of all your "facts" but the US did NOT even compete here:

1998    Izmir, Turkey, 1 American placed in top 15 of 6 classes

[timfogarty]

I don't about the accuraccy of all your "facts" but the US did NOT even compete here:

1998    Izmir, Turkey, 1 American placed in top 15 of 6 classes

Perhaps the US (NPC) did not send a team, but Charles Kemp came in 5th in the heavyweight class.  Of course I don't know his citizenship for sure.  He may have dual citizenship, or may have only been in the US on a visa.   And of course it's possible there was more than one Charles Kemp competing at that time.

[timfogarty]

Interesting....the total number of cards for 3 divisions [men bb, fem bb, fit] equals the amount of pro cards for the remaining division of figure.

I messed up the fitness.  I now count

29 Figure
18 Fitness
12 Men bodybuilding
8 Women bodybuilding

[MCWAY]

1995    Guam, 4 Americans placed in top 15 of 6 classes
1996    Amman, Jordan, no Americans placed in top 6 of 6 classes
1997    Prague, Czech Republic, 6 Americans placed in top 10 of 6 classes
1998    Izmir, Turkey, 1 American placed in top 15 of 6 classes
1999    Bratislava, Slovakia, 4 Americans placed in top 15 of 6 classes
2000    Malacca, Malaysia, 2 Americans placed in top 6 of 6 classes
2001    Yangon, Myanmar, no Americans placed in top 15 of 7 classes
2002    Cairo, Egypt, no Americans placed in top 15 of 6 classes
2003    Mumbai, India, no Americans placed in top 15 of 7 classes
2004    Moscow, Russia, no Americans placed in top 15 of 7 classes
2005   Shanghai, China, 6 Americans placed in top 15 of 7 classes

Only 2001 and 2002 did the USA team skip the World Amateur Championships because of security concerns.

Not according to one of my magazines:

Due to the turbulent political climate in the Middle East, NPC president Jim Manion has decided not to have the NPC USA men's bodybuilding team compete in the IFBB World Amateur Bodybuilding Championships in Jordan this November. Upon speaking with the U.S. State Department in Washington, D.C., NPC President Manion was told by the State Department that all USA athletic teams are prime targets for terroristic threats and actions. Jim also feels that it is unfair to jeopardize the safety of the other countries attending the championships. - All Natural Muscular Development, April 1997 page 148.

That was the point I was making. The Team Universe guys did not go to the 1996 World Amateur Championships (Mr. Universe).

The term "less-than-friendly was not a reference to the judges of the show, but to the potential security risks (terroristic threats). If any Americans went to the Universe, they probably went on their own dime. From this article I quoted, Manion did not send the TU guys to compete.

[MCWAY]

The Team U was "invented" to be the drug tested nationals that would pick the USA team for the amatuer IFBB worlds. The nationals used to be used and the class winners would go. Ronnie was not close to winning the nationals as a HVY wt when he was selected to go for the USA team and he was the ONLY heavy wt willing to submit to the urine drug test. He won the hvy wt worlds and then got his pro card.

The team U has the best "natural" guys this country has in the NPC. This is not the best future pros however.
Any guy serious about making a pro career is already into the juice long before he wins his pro card at the NPC nationals now. The Team U winners often have great physiques but they are not our absolute best.

The last group of NPC national class winners to go to the Universe was in 1990, headed by light-heavyweight and overall champion Alq Gurley. That was also the lone year that the Nationals was drug-tested.

[dzulboy]

simple lockett is overated

[serpentine007]

With all due respect, I can say much of the international bodybuilding community felt that the reason stated above was inaccurate. Yes, being an American did not give anyone an automatic right to win anything, nor should it imo. They like every other nation, can go and compete and the best will win most times.

Again, no disrespect intended even though this sounds rude, but imo some European nations are beginning to hand out pro cards in figure like candy. No offence to Mercedes, but she never even won the Dutch Nationals once, and in the last European Amateur Champs she did not even make the top 15...yet now she is pro? That is becoming very prevalent in some nations with figure. IMO it is an insult to the Americans, Canadians and Central/South Americans that must work to earn theirs through winning top level contests, and also insulting to bodybuilders who don't seem to get cards granted so easily. I do feel cards should be earned, not passed as anything other diminishes the 'prestige' of a pro card.

Aint nobody try to diss this sexy chick! I'm a big fan of her physique and beauty. She earned her points for pro status and has accomplished what was needed and she earned it. Otherwise nobody would've considered her for pro status and she wouln't have gotten it if she didn't earn it. Look at her website, there was 1 point difference @ the first Nationals cause she didnt know how to pose yet and 3 points at the 2nd, cause the gal who 'won' trained with 2 of the judges. I followed the whole thing, nobody understood what happened. Here in the US all the top 3 girls at the Nationals earn a pro card. There are now only 2 pro figure girls in that entire country, ever. Can't exactly call that handing out pro cards like candy. There was barely a difference between M and the other gals who got 1st looking at the points. Looking at the pics there's no doubt MK had the show, and there's no denying of her physique and potential, thus the pro status. And looking at the pics I got from her website, the girl who "won" should have been disqualified! What the F*!!!! Aint nobody wanna see no cellulite on a fitness stage!

Get your story straight and educate yourself about what needs to be done to earn a pro card. Better yet. How about considering getting a gym membership first!

[Hedgehog]

Not according to one of my magazines:

Due to the turbulent political climate in the Middle East, NPC president Jim Manion has decided not to have the NPC USA men's bodybuilding team compete in the IFBB World Amateur Bodybuilding Championships in Jordan this November. Upon speaking with the U.S. State Department in Washington, D.C., NPC President Manion was told by the State Department that all USA athletic teams are prime targets for terroristic threats and actions. Jim also feels that it is unfair to jeopardize the safety of the other countries attending the championships. - All Natural Muscular Development, April 1997 page 148.

That was the point I was making. The Team Universe guys did not go to the 1996 World Amateur Championships (Mr. Universe).

The term "less-than-friendly was not a reference to the judges of the show, but to the potential security risks (terroristic threats). If any Americans went to the Universe, they probably went on their own dime. From this article I quoted, Manion did not send the TU guys to compete.

Manion is so full of shit.

US citizens goes all over the world, every day.

But these bodybuilders are all of a sudden key targets?

WTF? Why not make up a better excuse for not sending a US Team.


-Hedge

[CQ]

Aint nobody try to diss this sexy chick! I'm a big fan of her physique and beauty. She earned her points for pro status and has accomplished what was needed and she earned it. Otherwise nobody would've considered her for pro status and she wouln't have gotten it if she didn't earn it. Look at her website, there was 1 point difference @ the first Nationals cause she didnt know how to pose yet and 3 points at the 2nd, cause the gal who 'won' trained with 2 of the judges. I followed the whole thing, nobody understood what happened. Here in the US all the top 3 girls at the Nationals earn a pro card. There are now only 2 pro figure girls in that entire country, ever. Can't exactly call that handing out pro cards like candy. There was barely a difference between M and the other gals who got 1st looking at the points. Looking at the pics there's no doubt MK had the show, and there's no denying of her physique and potential, thus the pro status. And looking at the pics I got from her website, the girl who "won" should have been disqualified! What the F*!!!! Aint nobody wanna see no cellulite on a fitness stage!

Get your story straight and educate yourself about what needs to be done to earn a pro card. Better yet. How about considering getting a gym membership first!

LOL, the last bit is quite hysterical considering my position. The irony just kills me. Thanks for the laugh

I have the story straight, and I was not "dissing" anyone, merely stating my opinion. I have absolutely nothing negative to say on her physique, the only comments I have ever passed there are entirely positive, and I mean no offence at all on a personal level, I am merely discussing the politics involved. I simply don't see the fairness in an individual who did not win a national title or even place in an international competition getting a pro card, when many others have to actually win to achieve pro status.

Why was the 2nd place winner of a national show awarded pro status, and the winner was not? That seems rather backwards.

Moreso, if someone who placed 15th in their class at the European Championships was subsequently awarded pro status.......surely it is only fair that the 14 competitors who placed above them are also awarded pro status? I don't understand how 15th place person goes pro, but #1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,10,11,12,13, and 14 do not? I simply do not comprehend this. What about all the other people in other classes who placed 1st- 14th?

I think there should be clear cut guidelines to achieve pro status worldwide. The USA and Canada have clear cut guidelines in place for achieving pro status. With clear guidelines in place it would eliminate controversy and ensure equality for all competitors worldwide.

[mwbbuilder]

Manion is so full of shit.

US citizens goes all over the world, every day.

But these bodybuilders are all of a sudden key targets?

WTF? Why not make up a better excuse for not sending a US Team.


-Hedge

The other countries didn't want the US there for those reasons.

[Hedgehog]

LOL, the last bit is quite hysterical considering my position. The irony just kills me. Thanks for the laugh

I have the story straight, and I was not "dissing" anyone, merely stating my opinion. I have absolutely nothing negative to say on her physique, the only comments I have ever passed there are entirely positive, and I mean no offence at all on a personal level, I am merely discussing the politics involved. I simply don't see the fairness in an individual who did not win a national title or even place in an international competition getting a pro card, when many others have to actually win to achieve pro status.

Why was the 2nd place winner of a national show awarded pro status, and the winner was not? That seems rather backwards.

Moreso, if someone who placed 15th in their class at the European Championships was subsequently awarded pro status.......surely it is only fair that the 14 competitors who placed above them are also awarded pro status? I don't understand how 15th place person goes pro, but #1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,10,11,12,13, and 14 do not? I simply do not comprehend this. What about all the other people in other classes who placed 1st- 14th?

I think there should be clear cut guidelines to achieve pro status worldwide. The USA and Canada have clear cut guidelines in place for achieving pro status. With clear guidelines in place it would eliminate controversy and ensure equality for all competitors worldwide.

The pro ranks are watered out.

IFBB should award the winners and runner ups at the world champs pro cards, nobody else.

Right now, there are some 10 pro cards handed out every year for males in North America alone.

Ridiculous.

Make every country send their best guys to the world championships, hand out the pro cards there.

That way, the status of the world champs would sky rocket as well.

-Hedge

[serpentine007]

Why was the 2nd place winner of a national show awarded pro status, and the winner was not?

The pic I posted sais it all. Nuff said. Nr 1 and 2 by a difference of a few points doesn't make nr 2 a not good enough athlete. Politics sure are a big thing, in all sports btw. It's the reason why 'Cellulite Girl' won that show. What's important, is that the athletes who have the potential to do well as a pro turn pro.

Let's see how Mercedes will do when she competes as a pro, then we can discuss if the is a worthy component or not. Looking up the other figure pro of that country Mascha, that gal has only been Not Placed, if not placed last. So it's about time for the next generation to come along! New blood is always a good things. With men also, it all depends on the day, how you carb load etc to look the way you do that day. Nr 1, 3 and 4 may be sponsored my some major supp co. who sponsored that particular show and nr 2 may not be sponsored by anyone but be so impressive to get 2nd anyways. Doesn't mean nr 2 is less of an athlete. There are many factors involved in competing behind the schemes my friend. But ya can't deny the physiques and ya can't make athletes pro who do not have the potential for it, nomatter what placings, know waddi'm sayin'.

 

[MCWAY]

Manion is so full of shit.

US citizens goes all over the world, every day.

But these bodybuilders are all of a sudden key targets?

WTF? Why not make up a better excuse for not sending a US Team.


-Hedge

There is a big difference between a couple of US citizens, traveling on their own dimes, and a designated team from the USA, (advertised as such) going to an event like the World Amateur Championships/Mr. Universe. That same article from All-Natural Muscular Development stated that Israel pulled its Universe team for similar reasons, and that Manion felt it was unfair to jeopardize the safety of the other countries competing in that show, held in Jordan that year (1996)

Mr. Manion also spoke to Asher Frig, the President of the IFBB Israeli Federation, and they also will not be sending a team to compete.

My point was that the U.S. team, not going to the Universe, because of problems like this, is the reason that the Team Universe became a pro qualifier.

[CQ]

The pic I posted sais it all. Nuff said. Nr 1 and 2 by a difference of a few points doesn't make nr 2 a not good enough athlete. Politics sure are a big thing, in all sports btw. It's the reason why 'Cellulite Girl' won that show. What's important, is that the athletes who have the potential to do well as a pro turn pro.

Let's see how Mercedes will do when she competes as a pro, then we can discuss if the is a worthy component or not. Looking up the other figure pro of that country Mascha, that gal has only been Not Placed, if not placed last. So it's about time for the next generation to come along! New blood is always a good things. With men also, it all depends on the day, how you carb load etc to look the way you do that day. Nr 1, 3 and 4 may be sponsored my some major supp co. who sponsored that particular show and nr 2 may not be sponsored by anyone but be so impressive to get 2nd anyways. Doesn't mean nr 2 is less of an athlete. There are many factors involved in competing behind the schemes my friend. But ya can't deny the physiques and ya can't make athletes pro who do not have the potential for it, nomatter what placings, know waddi'm sayin'.

 

Good post and valid point.

I don't think it's a matter of her personally being worthy, I am not even disputing that, she looks great, its the methodology of handing out pro cards arbitrarily.

The European Champs, her highest level competion to date, is on somewhat par with the US Nats/NA's/Carib,Cent Americans/South Americans with the Worlds being above all. If pro cards are given to the 15th placer in a class, reasonably speaking 1st - 14th then also deserve a card. That is 5 shows per year, minimum 3 classes each, meaning 45 people per show = 225 pro cards [in figure alone!] per year. That is my overall point here. There are in excess of 200+ amateur figure competitors who placed higher in that one season worldwide, but yet they were not awarded pro cards?

Also the 2nd place national win, her highest placing at national level. Again, if we hand cards to the 2nd placer in a class in all nationals worldwide[which in fairness means #1 should get] that results in literally thousands of cards per year. I myself am an overall national champion, but of a smaller nation, which is simply incomparable to the USA Nationals due to the sheer size/population of the USA. There are in excess of 100 nations in the IFBB, I don't believe every nation is deserving of pro cards for 2nd placer in a class, which would result in approx 500 cards per year per division, totalling 2000 pro cards per year...if the same consideration as given to all.

She looks totally great yes, absolutely no dispute there, but so do many hundred of competitors worldwide. I just think there needs to be equality with the cards being given. For the record, I am not figure so this is not personal, I would just like to see established procedures set, and the 'prestige' of an IFBB pro card maintained by virtue of it being well earned, not given as in the PDI.