Author Topic: When Americans reclaim the Amateur World Championships ?.  (Read 11368 times)

MCWAY

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The pro ranks are watered out.

IFBB should award the winners and runner ups at the world champs pro cards, nobody else.

Right now, there are some 10 pro cards handed out every year for males in North America alone.

Ridiculous.

Make every country send their best guys to the world championships, hand out the pro cards there.

That way, the status of the world champs would sky rocket as well.

-Hedge

And how do you "make" these countries do this? Most competitors at the national level, in the USA, at least,  compete for that pro card. If they get it at the Nationals, USA, or the North American Championships, they usually don't care about competing at the Universe, ESPECIALLY if there's drug-testing at the Universe.

As I said before, the last NPC Nationals team to go to the Universe was in 1990, headed by overall champion, light-heavyweight Alq Gurley.

The following year, Kevin Levrone didn't bother to go to the Universe, having already procured pro status (now, who exactly could have forced him to do so?). That's how a certain Texas cop, Ronnie Coleman, ended up going. He was the only one who placed high enough and was willing to do (or actually passed) the drug test. Coleman won the heavyweight class (there was no overall title that year) and got his IFBB card, qualifying to the 1992 Olympia, where he would place "16th". But, he ended up doing a bit better at the O, as the years went by.

Furthermore, I see about a dozen pro cards handed out in North America (all the weight class winners at the NPC Nationals, two weight class winners at the USA, one at the North American, two at the Canadian Nationals, and one at the Team Universe).

Runners-up in weight classes shouldn't get pro cards; they should only go to weight class winners. If the talent pool isn't deep enough, then only the overall champion should get the nod.


musclecenter

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The pro ranks are watered out.

IFBB should award the winners and runner ups at the world champs pro cards, nobody else.

Right now, there are some 10 pro cards handed out every year for males in North America alone.

Ridiculous.

Make every country send their best guys to the world championships, hand out the pro cards there.

That way, the status of the world champs would sky rocket as well.

-Hedge
I agree !!
You speak out for all bodybuilders outdide the U.S.A

MCWAY

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I agree !!
You speak out for all bodybuilders outdide the U.S.A

And what happens should the Americans dominate the pro ranks......WAIT A MINUTE!!

They already do that NOW!!!


CQ

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And what happens should the Americans dominate the pro ranks......WAIT A MINUTE!!

They already do that NOW!!!

Umm, I should hope Americans dominates the pro ranks. The USA receive basically more cards per year than the rest of the world put together does.

The 38 combined nations [with almost double the population of the USA] of my region get 1 card per division per year, total 4.....where as the US a single nation gets almost 70 combined cards per year!

If they did not dominate the pro ranks, it would be embarrassing really. The majority of pro cards are available to US citizens only.

MCWAY

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Umm, I should hope Americans dominates the pro ranks. The USA receive basically more cards per year than the rest of the world put together does.

The 38 combined nations [with almost double the population of the USA] of my region get 1 card per division per year, total 4.....where as the US a single nation gets almost 70 combined cards per year!

If they did not dominate the pro ranks, it would be embarrassing really. The majority of pro cards are available to US citizens only.

Perhaps, that's because the talent pool is a bit deeper in the USA, than in other areas.


CQ

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Perhaps, that's because the talent pool is a bit deeper in the USA, than in other areas.

The USA simply gets more cards than the rest of the world combined, so as they have the majority of the pros they will take the majority of the wins. It is extremely simple.

With the US getting proportionately/population speaking 30/40 times the amount of pro cards our male bodybuilders do, they haven't actually in recent years won 30/40 times the shows, in one accounts for the few wins by Darrem and Gustavo and equate the variables, this region with the disparity of card availability actually does well. We are not being 'beat' 30/40 times over, despite the USA having 30/40 times the cards.

Also recall many amateurs come up through the ranks worldwide subjected to drug testing, whereas besides for Team U the US does not test...so there is that disparity as well.


MCWAY

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The USA simply gets more cards than the rest of the world combined, so as they have the majority of the pros they will take the majority of the wins. It is extremely simple.

With the US getting proportionately/population speaking 30/40 times the amount of pro cards our male bodybuilders do, they haven't actually in recent years won 30/40 times the shows, in one accounts for the few wins by Darrem and Gustavo and equate the variables, this region with the disparity of card availability actually does well. We are not being 'beat' 30/40 times over, despite the USA having 30/40 times the cards.

Also recall many amateurs come up through the ranks worldwide subjected to drug testing, whereas besides for Team U the US does not test...so there is that disparity as well.



Where do you get "30/40 times the amount of pro cards"? By my count, the USA gives out about a dozen:

The NPC Nationals - 6 (all the weight class winners)

NPC USA - 2 (overall champion and one other weight class winner

IFBB North American - 1 (overall champion; however, this show is open to Canadian and Mecixan bodybuilders)

Team Universe - 1 (overall champion)

NPC Masters Nationals - 2 (overall champion and one other class winner).

Where are other 2 dozen or so pro cards of which you speak?


CQ

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Where do you get "30/40 times the amount of pro cards"? By my count, the USA gives out about a dozen:

The NPC Nationals - 6 (all the weight class winners)

NPC USA - 2 (overall champion and one other weight class winner

IFBB North American - 1 (overall champion; however, this show is open to Canadian and Mecixan bodybuilders)

Team Universe - 1 (overall champion)

NPC Masters Nationals - 2 (overall champion and one other class winner).

Where are other 2 dozen or so pro cards of which you speak?



12, thanks I was not 100% sure. And we get 1. Then take into population variables as well. There is about 400-450 million *more* people here than the USA [in the 38 nations that make up region total that is eligible for the 1 card]

I wasn't referring to 30 "extra", I meant approx 30 "times". To simplify it we get 1 card per 700 million people. The US gets 1 card per 25 million people [using a gen pop of 300 million, with 12 cards] That is a huge disparity. If we were receiving 1 card per 25 million people, we would get aprrox 30 cards per year...hence how I came up with the 30 times, as the numbers done per capita allude to us getting 30 at the same ratio that the US does, but we get 1.

Those numbers aren't 'exact'..........but the general principle is sound......1 card for 700 million, 12 cards for 300 million.

serpentine007

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Good post and valid point.

I don't think it's a matter of her personally being worthy, I am not even disputing that, she looks great, its the methodology of handing out pro cards arbitrarily.

The European Champs, her highest level competion to date, is on somewhat par with the US Nats/NA's/Carib,Cent Americans/South Americans with the Worlds being above all. If pro cards are given to the 15th placer in a class, reasonably speaking 1st - 14th then also deserve a card. That is 5 shows per year, minimum 3 classes each, meaning 45 people per show = 225 pro cards [in figure alone!] per year. That is my overall point here. There are in excess of 200+ amateur figure competitors who placed higher in that one season worldwide, but yet they were not awarded pro cards?

Also the 2nd place national win, her highest placing at national level. Again, if we hand cards to the 2nd placer in a class in all nationals worldwide[which in fairness means #1 should get] that results in literally thousands of cards per year. I myself am an overall national champion, but of a smaller nation, which is simply incomparable to the USA Nationals due to the sheer size/population of the USA. There are in excess of 100 nations in the IFBB, I don't believe every nation is deserving of pro cards for 2nd placer in a class, which would result in approx 500 cards per year per division, totalling 2000 pro cards per year...if the same consideration as given to all.

She looks totally great yes, absolutely no dispute there, but so do many hundred of competitors worldwide. I just think there needs to be equality with the cards being given. For the record, I am not figure so this is not personal, I would just like to see established procedures set, and the 'prestige' of an IFBB pro card maintained by virtue of it being well earned, not given as in the PDI.




CQ,

That's where you misunderstand. Europe doesn't decide who is good enough to turn pro in Holland. Holland does. And Mercedes defenitally lives up to that. She didn't have to have a certain placing at the European shows, just being invited for two international competitions is all that was needed. Why the other gals didn't turn pro, maybe they didn't go for it or the rules of their country might be different. Anyways. Ya better recognize! Her country did.
!

CF

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Sorry,guys
My English is not so perfect .
As a 30+years bodybuilder ,I know the rule of  "IFBB Pro League" and NPC.......
But for a non-American,we always have 2 questions:

(1)Why US's Team Universe placements are so low in  World Championships now?
in 2006,all USA athletes's placements almost last.-70kg was last!!!
Japan and our team have strict drug tests too(I was 2006 Taiwan national team coach ),but our placements better than USA !
It's impossible 20 years ago !!!!!
Since 1985 USA team's placements in World Championships have gotten worse !!!

(2)Why IFBB Pro League won't invite more foreign champions to get a pro-card ?
(According to rules:every class-winner of NPC Nationals can get pro-card .but class-winner of Asian Championships can not !)

##Anyone give me answer ?(please don't trolling)


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Last year I have finished my 735 pages Chinese edition bodybuilding book (pic as following)

Listen, Mr. Taiwan.  I suggest your really stop mocking the US bodybuilders that represent us in the World Amateur Championships.  The fact is, our Team Universe winners ARE natural, not only are they polygraphed, but they are also urine tested immediately after coming off of stage.  That is number one.  Number two, my asian friend, I know for a fact that not only you in Asia, but particularly the middle eastern regions, the athletes are not clean and natural and in many cases the actual government aids in the funding of the "enhancements" necessary as it is a great "honor" in those areas of the world to represent your country.  And for your information, it is very common that most European and Middle Eastern athletes turn down their "pro cards" as they are more highly honored by their governments for representing their countries so admirably.  We here in the U.S. do not receive this wonderful recognition from our president.

You say you want your national weight class winners recognized as professionals?   Well, send them over here to compete against us at our nationals, we welcome the ass-kicking we(Americans) would hand out to you.  How many top pros do you have competing?  Other than Hiteda Yamagishi, you have uhmmmm, none!  How does that sound? 

Do yourself the favor mr. taiwan, do not mock our truly natural athletes. Our amateurs had they the same help in beating the drug tests that your athletes and the rest of the world's athletes do, would fair better.  Jim Manion actually makes sure our athletes are clean, unlike your IFBB rep. who just wants to win at all costs so he looks like a genius.  Then again, our athletes actually pride themselves in really being clean, you guys are a bunch of bullshitting, sack of shit, lying fuckers who pride yourselves in beating the system....... Hope this helps.

Carlo

2004 Mr. North America
2005 NPC Nationals 3rd place

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Listen, Mr. Taiwan.  I suggest your really stop mocking the US bodybuilders that represent us in the World Amateur Championships.  The fact is, our Team Universe winners ARE natural, not only are they polygraphed, but they are also urine tested immediately after coming off of stage.  That is number one.  Number two, my asian friend, I know for a fact that not only you in Asia, but particularly the middle eastern regions, the athletes are not clean and natural and in many cases the actual government aids in the funding of the "enhancements" necessary as it is a great "honor" in those areas of the world to represent your country.  And for your information, it is very common that most European and Middle Eastern athletes turn down their "pro cards" as they are more highly honored by their governments for representing their countries so admirably.  We here in the U.S. do not receive this wonderful recognition from our president.

You say you want your national weight class winners recognized as professionals?   Well, send them over here to compete against us at our nationals, we welcome the ass-kicking we(Americans) would hand out to you.  How many top pros do you have competing?  Other than Hiteda Yamagishi, you have uhmmmm, none!  How does that sound? 

Do yourself the favor mr. taiwan, do not mock our truly natural athletes. Our amateurs had they the same help in beating the drug tests that your athletes and the rest of the world's athletes do, would fair better.  Jim Manion actually makes sure our athletes are clean, unlike your IFBB rep. who just wants to win at all costs so he looks like a genius.  Then again, our athletes actually pride themselves in really being clean, you guys are a bunch of bullshitting, sack of shit, lying fuckers who pride yourselves in beating the system....... Hope this helps.

Carlo

2004 Mr. North America
2005 NPC Nationals 3rd place

MELTDOWN!

CF

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MELTDOWN!

Yeah of epoch proportions.   ::) 

The Coach

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The fact is, our Team Universe winners ARE natural, not only are they polygraphed, but they are also urine tested immediately after coming off of stage.  That is number one. 
Carlo

2004 Mr. North America
2005 NPC Nationals 3rd place


ROTFLMAO, what delusional world are you living in??

The Coach

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Yeah of epoch proportions.   ::) 

Huh :-\??

timfogarty

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The fact is, our Team Universe winners ARE natural, not only are they polygraphed, but they are also urine tested immediately after coming off of stage.

And our athletes are so honest that no one has ever failed those urine and polygraph tests!  No one has ever been DQed from Team Universe!    No one has ever been caught cheating, even with a pro card on the line.

(translation:  no one believes Team Universe winners are 3 years drug free as the rules require.  no one believes that Manion and those in the NPC give anything more than lip service to the drug free rules.)

Quote
2004 Mr. North America
2005 NPC Nationals 3rd place

the title "Mr" is generally reserved for the overall winner, Carlo

CF

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ROTFLMAO, what delusional world are you living in??

Are you kidding me?  Take a good look at these guys?  You believe the winners are not natural?  Shows how delusional you are.  I've been in this sport a long time.  Competed with, ate with and spoken to most of these guys, the fact is and I assure you, the guys at team U. are clean.  You all think Lockett is on the shit, well, I'll put it to you this way, everyone doubted Ronnie was clean when he turned pro, till.......... he actually got on the shit and then it showed! Ronnies actual words to me were when asked "what made him turn to drugs?"  "I just got tired of working harder than everyone else and still getting my ass kicked."  Funny how a couple of years later, after being a "nonfactor" in his first few years as a pro he became Mr. O.   Ask Flex, Shawn and anybody else if they believed him after that.  Recent example is Kai Greene, he turned pro at Team U. looked great natural, now 2 years later and on the shit, he's an olympia qualified athlete.  The delusional world I live in is the real one my friend, I actually participate in this sport and can tell you like it is, if you don't believe it, well......... I can't help that.  Sorry.

timfogarty

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Are you kidding me?  Take a good look at these guys?  You believe the winners are not natural?

If they're bigger, harder, more ripped than the pros of the 1970s and 1980, who were all juiced to the gills, then yes it is unlikely that the winners of Team U are natural.

CF

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And our athletes are so honest that no one has ever failed those urine and polygraph tests!  No one has ever been DQed from Team Universe!    No one has ever been caught cheating.

(translation:  no one believes Team Universe winners are 3 years drug free as the rules require.  no one believes that Manion and those in the NPC give anything more than lip service to the drug free rules.)




Quite the contrary, translation:

After Darry Thornton went to the World Championships and was disqualified for testing positive, it was made very clear that you would not turn pro if you embarrassed the NPC. 

I guess you would have to be a competitor to know and understand this.

And the fact is there have been competitors disqualified for failing the drug tests... I'm not telling you they are all honest, we know that's not the case, but take a good look at our athletes versus the world's.........  The rest of the world amateurs look like our NPC nationals competitors, not the team u's. 

btw, they usually do not urine test and re-polygraph test the competitors out of the top 5.

Carlo

CF

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If they're bigger, harder, more ripped than the pros of the 1970s and 1980, who were all juiced to the gills, then yes it is unlikely that the winners of Team U are natural.

You really need to take a closer look at the photos.  We are talking about the npc team universe, correct?  In my recollection, Mike Lockett, Kai Greene and Jose Raymond.  Are the only bodybuilders who you would even compare to those of the 70's and 80's.  We had a guy win the welters class named Jose Oquendo who 2 years ago couldn't win his class at a local show.  I can understand how you would doubt the 3 I mentioned, but the others?  Come on, i'm serious, match up the winners of team u with those of the nats., there is a huge disparity.

Carlo

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Are you kidding me?  Take a good look at these guys?  You believe the winners are not natural?  Shows how delusional you are.  I've been in this sport a long time.  Competed with, ate with and spoken to most of these guys, the fact is and I assure you, the guys at team U. are clean.  You all think Lockett is on the shit, well, I'll put it to you this way, everyone doubted Ronnie was clean when he turned pro, till.......... he actually got on the shit and then it showed! Ronnies actual words to me were when asked "what made him turn to drugs?"  "I just got tired of working harder than everyone else and still getting my ass kicked."  Funny how a couple of years later, after being a "nonfactor" in his first few years as a pro he became Mr. O.   Ask Flex, Shawn and anybody else if they believed him after that.  Recent example is Kai Greene, he turned pro at Team U. looked great natural, now 2 years later and on the shit, he's an olympia qualified athlete.  The delusional world I live in is the real one my friend, I actually participate in this sport and can tell you like it is, if you don't believe it, well......... I can't help that.  Sorry.
Not everyone from the USA competed naturally.  Give me a break.  If the rest of the world knows how to get around the tests I am sure the US knows the same secrets.

Musclecenter is not acting like a jerk. You seem to be getting your posing trunks in a wad.

timfogarty

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You really need to take a closer look at the photos.  We are talking about the npc team universe, correct?  In my recollection, Mike Lockett, Kai Greene and Jose Raymond. 

yes, Kai Greene.  When I would see him occasionally at Johnny Lats in NYC in 1999, I didn't believe for a second he was natural.  Didn't beleive he was natural either in 2004.    And you don't go from lifetime natural to winning an IFBB pro show in 3 years no matter how much stuff you use now.

sure some of the winners of the lighter weight classes could be drug free, but not the upper weight classes.

But you wrote

Quote
The fact is, our Team Universe winners ARE natural, not only are they polygraphed, but they are also urine tested immediately after coming off of stage.

so that means that Kai was tested, and passed.   

if someone actually failed the test and was DQed, then those who are clean would have a little more credibility.

Chamorrita

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yes, Kai Greene.  When I would see him occasionally at Johnny Lats in NYC in 1999, I didn't believe for a second he was natural.  Didn't beleive he was natural either in 2004.    And you don't go from lifetime natural to winning an IFBB pro show in 3 years no matter how much stuff you use now.

sure some of the winners of the lighter weight classes could be drug free, but not the upper weight classes.

I trained at Johnny Lats once when I was on a buying trip in NYC during that time.

CF

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Not everyone from the USA competed naturally.  Give me a break.  If the rest of the world knows how to get around the tests I am sure the US knows the same secrets.

Musclecenter is not acting like a jerk. You seem to be getting your posing trunks in a wad.

Not exactly what I meant.  What I implied was that it is more acceptable to lie and deny in the foreign countries, our team u athletes do not take the risk of getting caught, trust me!  Or don't trust me, I have no reason to stick up for any of them, I am just telling you what I know, but then again, what would I know, you obviously know better ;)

btw, you'd be amazed at what the rest of the world knows.  some of the guys from overseas i've interacted with(top guys in the mideast) actually laugh at us when they hear some of the things we don't know.

And i'm gonna disagree, musclecenter is putting down the u.s. athletes blatantly, which, if i didn't know them personally(and know that they are clean), then maybe i wouldn't take it as personal.  And yes, come to think of it my trunks are a bit tight. lol.

Carlo

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You really need to take a closer look at the photos.  We are talking about the npc team universe, correct?  In my recollection, Mike Lockett, Kai Greene and Jose Raymond.  Are the only bodybuilders who you would even compare to those of the 70's and 80's.  We had a guy win the welters class named Jose Oquendo who 2 years ago couldn't win his class at a local show.  I can understand how you would doubt the 3 I mentioned, but the others?  Come on, i'm serious, match up the winners of team u with those of the nats., there is a huge disparity.

Carlo
Are you natural?

CF

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yes, Kai Greene.  When I would see him occasionally at Johnny Lats in NYC in 1999, I didn't believe for a second he was natural.  Didn't beleive he was natural either in 2004.    And you don't go from lifetime natural to winning an IFBB pro show in 3 years no matter how much stuff you use now.

sure some of the winners of the lighter weight classes could be drug free, but not the upper weight classes.

But you wrote

so that means that Kai was tested, and passed.   

if someone actually failed the test and was DQed, then those who are clean would have a little more credibility.

Actually, I was there as soon as Kai got off stage when he won the overall.  He was walked into a room with Lou (whatever) the same guy who polygraphed Charles Manson and repolygraphed and gave a urine sample.  I'm not sure if you are familiar with the structure of the drug testing.  The athletes are polygraphed before the show.  Those who do not pass, do not compete, they are automatically disqualified... This happens every year, that is why you don't hear of someone "failing."  They usually don't make it to the stage because they've failed the initial polygraph.  After the show, all weight class winners drop their trophies and are escorted to a polygraph testing room, retested and give a urine sample under superivision.  Maybe this helps.

Listen guys, I'm not naive nor am I defending anybody, I don't need to do that.  I'm not telling you that guys don't get over, but it's not many I assure you, otherwise, why wouldn't we have our national champs at the world championships? 

Carlo