Want to fuck with us Americans?? MK-44 mini-gun test fire

[DroppingPlates]

If it wasn't for the Yanks and their weapons in a few crucial times in history the world would be a very different place, indeed.

The world would be a more peaceful place

[Shockwave]

The Spanish-American War springs to mind as an example. Economic and political subversion is always to be preferred, if only to lessen the 'costs' of such enterprises.

Well, thats why original post he quoted said "in recent history". Lol. I almost reposted that quote, but didnt. Probably should have.

[Shockwave]

Tell me about Tet then, GX.  I didn't know it was considered a failed offensive.  I heard it demonstrated the ability of the NVA & VC to mobilize a nationwide attack and the failure of our intelligence to get a whiff of it.  With all its associated issues like movement of munitions, extensive planning and communications, didn't it show the enemy to be a lot better organized than we gave them credit for?  And us to be more poorly informed than we would have liked to believe?

Tet - was a military success for us, but a political failure, as the reports got back to the US and the people freaked out. As we all know, public opinion shapes political opinion.
We always knew how and where they were moving their supplies, we just couldnt do anything about it, as our hands were tied. We were not allowed (officially at least) to go into Laos and Cambodia, which are the 2 primary countries that NVA were using to move everything to South Vietnam.

The initial attacks stunned the US and South Vietnamese armies and took them by surprise, but most were quickly contained and beaten back, inflicting massive casualties on communist forces. During the Battle of Hue intense fighting lasted for a month and the NLF executed thousands of residents in the Massacre at Huế. Around the US combat base at Khe Sanh fighting continued for two more months. Although the offensive was a military defeat for the communists, it had a profound effect on the US government and shocked the US public, which had been led to believe by its political and military leaders that the communists were, due to previous defeats, incapable of launching such a massive effort.

[syntaxmachine]

Isn't China harvesting Helium-3 on the Moon though?

As I understand it, they have a long-term plan to, but this involves getting a lot done before the actual harvesting begins (e.g., testing the relevant technology over and over again, getting a rover on the moon, and so forth). Good luck to them; in any case, it doesn't change any of the thing's I've pointed out here.

[GigantorX]

Tell me about Tet then, GX.  I didn't know it was considered a failed offensive.  I heard it demonstrated the ability of the NVA & VC to mobilize a nationwide attack and the failure of our intelligence to get a whiff of it.  With all its associated issues like movement of munitions, extensive planning and communications, didn't it show the enemy to be a lot better organized than we gave them credit for?  And us to be more poorly informed than we would have liked to believe?

-Militarily it was a disaster for the communists. The V.C. lost upwards of 100,000+ soldiers during all 3 phases of the offensive. The V.C. were finished as an effective fighting force and the NVA took complete control of the war against the South Vietnamese at that point. The North wasn't able to mount a serious offensive until 1972, The Easter Offensive, which the North was defeated by the South, with help from U.S. air-power.

-Our intelligence had a whiff or two or three of the operation. We knew something was coming, but Westmorland believed the Communists would strike at Khe-Shan in an attempt to destroy a major U.S. installation and win a huge P.R. battle like the North did against the French at Dien Bien Phu. Westmorland was correct, the North did strike Khe-Shan, but it was a head-fake engineered to distract which it did.

-Tet did show that the enemy had the capability plan, execute and somewhat sustain a large scale, multi-front offensive. But, the North, specifically the V.C., couldn't totally sustain it over the offensives 3 phases, which ended in August. It was a one shot deal, they tried, failed militarily and that was it. Mass defections from the V.C. to the South occurred as well. In the end, Westmorland had the Communists right where he wanted them, out in the open in a stand-up fight where he could bring huge concentrations of firepower to bear. Find, Fix,Kill.

-Tet was a huge political/propaganda victory for the communists. It didn't have to be, but LBJ, the military and an increasingly anti-war media foiled that for the U.S. and the South Vietnamese. Remember that Tet happened after LBJ's "Light at the End of the Tunnel" speech and the war was going on 5-6 years for the U.S. After Tet, LBJ started a troop withdrawl and that was really the beginning of the end.

-If we maintain commitment, start Linebacker-like no holds barred air operations earlier and go into Cambodia before/directly after Tet things would have turned out differently. Or boot Westmoreland for Creighton Abrams and his COIN policy, too.

-It was bad, really bad for the V.C. and the NVA. Of course the worst was to come for the V.C. after the fall of Saigon in 1975.

I think I hit the major points, if not, someone fill in the blanks.

[Shockwave]

-Militarily it was a disaster for the communists. The V.C. lost upwards of 100,000+ soldiers during all 3 phases of the offensive. The V.C. were finished as an effective fighting force and the NVA took complete control of the war against the South Vietnamese at that point. The North wasn't able to mount a serious offensive until 1972, The Easter Offensive, which the North was defeated by the South, with help from U.S. air-power.

-Our intelligence had a whiff or two or three of the operation. We knew something was coming, but Westmorland believed the Communists would strike at Khe-Shan in an attempt to destroy a major U.S. installation and win a huge P.R. battle like the North did against the French at Dien Bien Phu. Westmorland was correct, the North did strike Khe-Shan, but it was a head-fake engineered to distract which it did.

-Tet did show that the enemy had the capability plan, execute and somewhat sustain a large scale, multi-front offensive. But, the North, specifically the V.C., couldn't totally sustain it over the offensives 3 phases, which ended in August. It was a one shot deal, they tried, failed militarily and that was it. Mass defections from the V.C. to the South occurred as well. In the end, Westmorland had the Communists right where he wanted them, out in the open in a stand-up fight where he could bring huge concentrations of firepower to bear. Find, Fix,Kill.

-Tet was a huge political/propaganda victory for the communists. It didn't have to be, but LBJ, the military and an increasingly anti-war media foiled that for the U.S. and the South Vietnamese. Remember that Tet happened after LBJ's "Light at the End of the Tunnel" speech and the war was going on 5-6 years for the U.S. After Tet, LBJ started a troop withdrawl and that was really the beginning of the end.

-If we maintain commitment, start Linebacker-like no holds barred air operations earlier and go into Cambodia before/directly after Tet things would have turned out differently. Or boot Westmoreland for Creighton Abrams and his COIN policy, too.

-It was bad, really bad for the V.C. and the NVA. Of course the worst was to come for the V.C. after the fall of Saigon in 1975.

I think I hit the major points, if not, someone fill in the blanks.

You put it better into words than I ever could.
Good job.

[GigantorX]

There's some talk on here of China's apparently inevitable rise and subsequent displacement of the U.S. as sole superpower. The media (and even some scholars) hyped this idea up a bit so it's understandable if you think it's reasonable ... despite the fact that it isn't.

The U.S. economy is still triple the size of the Chinese economy, and this simple fact masks immense disparities in, for example, per capita GDP (it is abysmally low for the Chinese). Also, the projected Chinese growth is just that: projected. In reality, the Chinese are in a dangerous situation where lots of civil unrest is liable to break out when economic growth slows, as it surely will. They currently have a housing bubble of their own, a huge amount of corruption,  markets almost nobody in the outside world can access (making their future as a financial center ala NY or London dim), and a political system -- with a politburo of 9 or so people that think they can rule over more than a billion -- that no one is sure is compatible with the economic reforms that will be needed in the future.

On the military front, there is simply no competition to be had. The U.S. spends an extraordinary amount of money on procuring advanced weapons, on training and equipping its troops, and in fact has a virtual monopoly on R&D. All of this results in the best military on the earth, including a navy larger by tonnage than the rest of the world combined (including over 2,300 ships), including 11 aircraft carriers (China has approximately 0, and that is not slated to change anytime soon).





In short, China has an extraordinarily long way to go to usurp the U.S. as world superpower; its economy is only going to grow as projected with extremely optimistic assumptions and even if this occurs, it will be perhaps a century behind the U.S. when it comes to military capability and financial competence.

Great fucking post, well done.

There always needs to be a boogeyman even when logic and reality don't quite support assumptions.

[Tito24]

it was Yoko Ono

rofl, i love this guy

[syntaxmachine]

Thanks! I should also add that the "China Rising" projections, besides depending on absolutely perfect outcomes for the Chinese, as I already said, also tend to project the worst for the U.S., e.g., U.S. growth never again rising above 3%, the U.S. being forced to cut military spending due to its inability to manage its finances (though that part may more or less happen) and so forth.

[Tito24]

chinese men have tiny bodies and penises

[Radical Plato]

Nice pontificating but I think it has only a tenuous connection to reality. How beneficial to the world economy in particular would an American collapse be? Was the crisis of 2009-2011 to everyone else's benefit?

you idiot - American doesn't have an economy - you are bankrupt and don't even know it - China owns America - and only keeps lending too keep the whole system propped up for as long as it can hold of complete collapse - the sad thing is you Americans have no idea what's coming, keep believing that you are mighty, prosperous and rich!  Fools, if you knew the truth, you would be studying survivalist techniques, but you freaks live in a bubble!  America has collapsed, but like I said, you freaks will be the last to know!  The people who caused the collapse own the media which pumps your heads full of the type of crap you all like to hear!  This poor poster thinks the American Economy hasn't collapsed!

[GigantorX]

you idiot - American doesn't have an economy - you are bankrupt and don't even know it - China owns America - and only keeps lending too keep the whole system propped up for as long as it can hold of complete collapse - the sad thing is you Americans have no idea what's coming, keep believing that you are mighty, prosperous and rich!  Fools, if you knew the truth, you would be studying survivalist techniques, but you freaks live in a bubble!  America has collapsed, but like I said, you freaks will be the last to know!  The people who caused the collapse own the media which pumps your heads full of the type of crap you all like to hear!  This poor poster thinks the American Economy hasn't collapsed!

Oh man....

[The True Adonis]

you idiot - American doesn't have an economy - you are bankrupt and don't even know it - China owns America - and only keeps lending too keep the whole system propped up for as long as it can hold of complete collapse - the sad thing is you Americans have no idea what's coming, keep believing that you are mighty, prosperous and rich!  Fools, if you knew the truth, you would be studying survivalist techniques, but you freaks live in a bubble!  America has collapsed, but like I said, you freaks will be the last to know!  The people who caused the collapse own the media which pumps your heads full of the type of crap you all like to hear!  This poor poster thinks the American Economy hasn't collapsed!

China is a complete shithole where most don`t even have running water.  Hope this helps.

[Shockwave]

Oh man....

Lulz.

[Radical Plato]

China is a complete shithole where most don`t even have running water.  Hope this helps.

It's not the peasants you have to worry about, it's the Billionaire Elites who might find a way to get their trillions of american dollars owed without destabilising their own economy, then convert those US dollars to Chinese currency and complete arse fuck the American dollar and the economy with it.

[Shockwave]

It's not the peasants you have to worry about, it's the Billionaire Elites who might come for their trillions of american dollars owed, convert them to Chinese currency and complete arse fuck the American dollar and the economy with it.

You do realize China is somewhat dependant on the US economy, right?

[Radical Plato]

You do realize China is somewhat dependant on the US economy, right?

Yes, I changed my post, I understand the delicate balance, but the Chinese are shrewd and not to be underestimated,  the Chinese are definitely not as Pro American as American Government would have you believe.  Once economic ties become strained, the tensions will became more overt!

[GigantorX]

It's not the peasants you have to worry about, it's the Billionaire Elites who might find a way to get their trillions of american dollars owed without destabilising their own economy, then convert those US dollars to Chinese currency and complete arse fuck the American dollar and the economy with it.

Not as long as China is totally dependent on exports to the U.S. and U.S. consumption. They need us more than we need them. If push came to shove the production could be moved back within our borders, and with it whatever technical expertise, capital and employment as well.

[loco]

A super-stealthy warship that could underpin the U.S. navy's China strategy will be able to sneak up on coastlines virtually undetected and pound targets with electromagnetic "railguns" right out of a sci-fi movie.

http://news.yahoo.com/us-navy-hopes-stealth-ship-answers-rising-china-065329046.html

[GigantorX]

A super-stealthy warship that could underpin the U.S. navy's China strategy will be able to sneak up on coastlines virtually undetected and pound targets with electromagnetic "railguns" right out of a sci-fi movie.

http://news.yahoo.com/us-navy-hopes-stealth-ship-answers-rising-china-065329046.html

"Rising China", oh brother. The media makes it seem that the Chinese are invading the West Coast already.

[epic_alien]

Hindsight is 20/20. They would not have surrendered even under continued conventional attacks, that includes firebombings as well. It is certainly not "one of the darkest days in American history". Instead of firebombing every single city in the country 2x over we simply dropped 2 nuclear weapons on two cities. We didn't tap dance around, the war needed end, to do so you take the gloves off and use everything at your disposal to finish the war as quickly as possible. I believe that using those 2 bombs probably saved more lives than it took. Showing the weapon off to the Soviets and to let the world see American might didn't hurt either.

And the above is simply one mans opinion. But when you say"Well, the Japanese were finished, we didn't need the A-Bomb", you say so 60+ years after the fact. The worlds surveillance, communication and intelligence technology and capability was in the stone age compared to what we have now or even 20 years ago. Plus the Japanese only demonstrated during every battle that they would fight to death and never, ever surrender. That can't be over stated.

what war?  you mean the provoking the united states participated in by not trading with them anymore, and trying to cripple their economy, knowing they would have to do something about it. and then knowing there was a attack comming to pearl harbor, then saying nothing, so that it could happen, and thus afterwards had the reason to go and attack them full on to test the superweapon they had work so hard. war? what war?

[Schmoff]

"Rising China", oh brother. The media makes it seem that the Chinese are invading the West Coast already.

exactly

China has never invaded any nation in thier entire history, I really don't understand why us and other western countries always have this "China is the biggest threat to us" bullshit.

[Shockwave]

what war?  you mean the provoking the united states participated in by not trading with them anymore, and trying to cripple their economy, knowing they would have to do something about it. and then knowing there was a attack comming to pearl harbor, then saying nothing, so that it could happen, and thus afterwards had the reason to go and attack them full on to test the superweapon they had work so hard. war? what war?

Oh for gods sake. You really think the US wouldnt have been drawn into WWII if the Japanese hadnt attacked us?
You act like the fucking Atomic Bomb was finished when we started the war with Japan, and we were just looking for a excuse to use it.

The bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were tragic, yes, but they saved countless American lives from having to invade their fucking country, especially seeing as how they would fight to the last woman and child.

The Japanese would one of the most brutal enemies ever faced - there was no surrender. You surrendered to them - they chopped your balls off and stuck them in your mouth.

On Iwo, when all hope was lost - they started throwing themselves on their swords and blowing themselves up.

Dropping the bomb's did exactly what they were supposed to do - save American lives and end the war in the pacific. When you start worrying about your enemy's wellbeing more than your own - thats when you know youve lost.

[Dr Dutch]

Tokyo was targeted to be next if Japan did not surrender.
http://airminded.org/2009/08/19/the-third-atomic-bomb-tokyo-19-august-1945/

You´re right. Glad they did surrender...

[loco]

exactly

China has never invaded any nation in thier entire history, I really don't understand why us and other western countries always have this "China is the biggest threat to us" bullshit.

There is a first time for everything.     

And their neighbors, the Mongols created what was the largest contiguous land empire in human history.