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Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: Palumboism on June 23, 2017, 03:20:42 PM
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Peter Thiel recently made a comment that aerospace innovation has stalled because airplanes haven't changed much since the launch of the 747 back in 1969. I believe most people would erroneously agree with this statement because they don't understand the kind of innovation the industry wants. Case in point, the A320neo and the 737 MAX. These aircraft typify the kind of innovation the customers want. To say these aircraft are a hit is an understatement. Their order backlogs are staggering.
A320neo family orders 5,053
737 MAX family orders 3,699
When these aircraft are delivered they will transport more than six million people per day.
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Steven Hazy has probably had more affect on the airline industry than anyone else alive today and most people have never heard of him.
Steve saw in the 60's how airlines were having difficulties affording newly introduced jets which were significantly more expensive than prop aircraft. With this insight he invented the industry of leasing aircraft to airlines. Today leased aircraft account for almost half of all commercial airplanes flown. As a senior at UCLA Steve brokered his first deal, a sale of a turboprop from Air New Zealand to Aleutian Airlines.
He convinced Airbus to develop the A350 and A330neo and Boeing to develop the 787-10. His leasing company has ordered more aircraft from both companies than any airline.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/10/business/10flyboy.html?_r=0&pagewanted=all (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/10/business/10flyboy.html?_r=0&pagewanted=all)
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First 737 (shown below) entered service with Lufthansa in February 1968.
Before Boeing lunched the 707 they were a distant third behind McDonnell Douglas and Lockheed. The 707 changed everything and they followed it up with three hits, the 727, 737, and 747.
(https://readtiger.com/img/wkp/en/Lufthansa_737-130_D-ABED.jpg)
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Palumboism, serious question:
Why such a strong interest in airlines?
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Peter Thiel recently made a comment that aerospace innovation has stalled because airplanes haven't changed much since the launch of the 747 back in 1969. I believe most people would erroneously agree with this statement because they don't understand the kind of innovation the industry wants. Case in point, the A320neo and the 737 MAX. These aircraft typify the kind of innovation the customers want. To say these aircraft are a hit is an understatement. Their order backlogs are staggering.
A320neo family orders 5,053
737 MAX family orders 3,699
When these aircraft are delivered they will transport more than six million people per day.
I love me some Boeing, but the Neo is kicking some serious ass.....I have flown on these A320s, not neo,...they seem to have more leg rooms than the typical 737s.... the Neo has longer range than the 737 Max, at least that's what airbus claimed.....they said Neo should have a range of 3700 nautical miles on a Pratt & Whitney PW1100G engines.....but 737Max said they will match or exceed Neo's range claims.....based on orders so far, it seems that Airbus, somehow, is convincing customers to buy their Neos......either way, they're both two beautiful Birds
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I haven't flown commercial since 1986. I took my G5 to rehab.
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Palumboism, serious question:
Why such a strong interest in airlines?
I've worked at four aircraft companies and have launched thee aircraft. I'm interested in all aspects of the industry, but airlines are the only way most people come into contact with airplanes.
This is actually a time of great change in the aerospace industry. Replacing aluminum with composites is drastically changing the design of aircraft. Think 787, A350, 777X.
The engine manufacturers are making significant improvements in engines. The NEO and MAX are basically the same airplanes with new engines, but the engines are so improved that the whole plane is better.
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I love me some Boeing, but the Neo is kicking some serious ass.....I have flown on these A320s, not neo,...they seem to have more leg rooms than the typical 737s.... the Neo has longer range than the 737 Max, at least that's what airbus claimed.....they said Neo should have a range of 3700 nautical miles on a Pratt & Whitney PW1100G engines.....but 737Max said they will match or exceed Neo's range claims.....based on orders so far, it seems that Airbus, somehow, is convincing customers to buy their Neos......either way, they're both two beautiful Birds
Airbus gets the orders by offering a more attractive price. ;)
Skip to the 4:20 mark where Phil Scruggs (CEO AerCap)explains why he ordered 200 A320neo's and no 737 MAX.
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Airbus gets the orders by offering a more attractive price. ;)
Skip to the 4:20 mark where Phil Scruggs (CEO AerCap)explains why he ordered 200 A320neo's and no 737 MAX.
hahahah....I think that's a smart business move from airbus.....as far as US customers are concerned, I'm sure Delta, JetBlue, AA will be getting their Neos soon enough in these terminals......I heard South West already ordered 5 dozen or so MAXes
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What plane is gonna replace the 757 they seem to be hanging on to until they are ancient?
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What plane is gonna replace the 757 they seem to be hanging on to until they are ancient?
Good question. The 757 and 767 are what is referred to as the middle of middle of the market or "MOM". Currently Boeing has no replacement for these aircraft and the A321 is a much better replacement for the 757 than the 737-9. Boeing is in the early planning phases of an aircraft for the middle of the market to be called 797. The 797 will have about 240 seats and a range of 5000nm. Also, expect both the fuselage and wings to be carbon fiber. Airbus has said they will wait to see what the Boeing does with the 797 and then improve upon it like they did with the A350.
Regarding the engines on the 797, GE's David Joyce said "Should Boeing choose multiple suppliers, we’re out,” adding that his company still carries “scars” from being one of three engine providers on the Airbus A330 plane 20 years ago.
I expect the GE engine will be the only engine offered.
The 797 is important because it will foretell the future of all commercial airplanes from both Boeing and Airbus.
(http://aviationweek.com/site-files/aviationweek.com/files/uploads/2016/07/f-nmapromo.jpg)
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hahahah....I think that's a smart business move from airbus.....as far as US customers are concerned, I'm sure Delta, JetBlue, AA will be getting their Neos soon enough in these terminals......I heard South West already ordered 5 dozen or so MAXes
Largest 737 MAX orders:
Lion Air, 201
Southwest Airlines, 200
GECAS, 170
SpiceJet, 142
Air Lease, 118
Norwegian, 108
Largest A320neo orders:
IndiGo, 430
AirAsia, 404
AerCap, 211
Lion Air, 178
GoAir, 144
Frontier was the first American Airline to receive an A320neo.
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hahahah....I think that's a smart business move from airbus.....as far as US customers are concerned, I'm sure Delta
If you want to know how to buy airplanes cheap, follow whatever Delta does. They know how to get the best deals. That includes not ordering any new airplanes with fancy new engines. No thank you, I'll buy the old discontinued model on sale. Delta doesn't have a single NEO or MAX on order.
Delt's current aircraft on order:
Bombardier CS100, 75
Airbus A350-900, 25
Airbus A330-900neo, 25
Airbus A321-200, 100
Boeing 737-900ER, 51
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Air_Lines_fleet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Air_Lines_fleet)
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Not to mention delta picked up several 777's a few years ago for under 10
Million a piece. Slightly used of course. I think it was around 7 million. Delta
is always leading the industry in their practices.
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I love me some Boeing, but the Neo is kicking some serious ass.....I have flown on these A320s, not neo,...they seem to have more leg rooms than the typical 737s.... the Neo has longer range than the 737 Max, at least that's what airbus claimed.....they said Neo should have a range of 3700 nautical miles on a Pratt & Whitney PW1100G engines.....but 737Max said they will match or exceed Neo's range claims.....based on orders so far, it seems that Airbus, somehow, is convincing customers to buy their Neos......either way, they're both two beautiful Birds
The 737 historically has been more reliable and fuel efficient than the A320. In addition, Boeing is more responsive with spare parts and because of all this Boeing usually charges a premium. I actually prefer the A320 as a passenger because it feels more modern. Neither company produces an airplane that's not good, now that the A340 has been discontinued. I'm sorry, but the A340 was a flop.
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Not to mention delta picked up several 777's a few years ago for under 10
Million a piece. Slightly used of course. I think it was around 7 million. Delta
is always leading the industry in their practices.
Delta Air Lines CEO Richard Anderson said Wednesday that wide-body models coming off leases are creating an “aircraft bubble,” offering his airline opportunities to acquire used 777s or A330s on the cheap.
A glut of wide-body models coming off leases is creating an “aircraft bubble,” Chief Executive Officer Richard Anderson said Wednesday.
“The aircraft market is going to be ripe for Delta over the course of the next 12 to 36 months,” Anderson said on a conference call after the airline’s third-quarter earnings report. “Prices are going to get lower.”
http://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boeing-shares-fall-as-delta-ceo-predicts-glut-of-wide-body-jets/ (http://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boeing-shares-fall-as-delta-ceo-predicts-glut-of-wide-body-jets/)
One hundred percent agree. If you wanted to buy a wide-body recently the best choice is a used 777 or A330 coming off lease. Delta is by far the best run airline of the big three domestics
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If you want to know how to buy airplanes cheap, follow whatever Delta does. They know how to get the best deals. That includes not ordering any new airplanes with fancy new engines. No thank you, I'll buy the old discontinued model on sale. Delta doesn't have a single NEO or MAX on order.
Delt's current aircraft on order:
Bombardier CS100, 75
Airbus A350-900, 25
Airbus A330-900neo, 25
Airbus A321-200, 100
Boeing 737-900ER, 51
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Air_Lines_fleet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Air_Lines_fleet)
hahahaha....Delta is getting a Bang for their Buck....they said Delta planned on getting Rid of their aging 747 fleet....I'm sure they will convert them to cargo or sell them
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hahahaha....Delta is getting a Bang for their Buck....they said Delta planned on getting Rid of their aging 747 fleet....I'm sure they will convert them to cargo or sell them
Delta still flies (116) MD-88, (65) MD-90, and (91) 717. These are airplanes derived from the DC-9, which first flew in 1965. The MD-88's are twenty-nine years old!. Cycles (one takeoff and landing) are what count regarding aircraft age and you can keep an aircraft running for very a long time (see third world counties), but usually after thirty years the "C" checks become prohibitively expensive and so do the repairs and corrosion they discover.
The aircraft in Aloha Airlines flight 243 accident was a (737-200) that had 89,000 cycles (the most in their fleet) with 19 years of service. The 737-200 was designed for 75,000 cycles but inspections and repairs can keep aicraft fuselages flying indefinitely.
(https://i.redditmedia.com/5OOf_Cod4L5hFFuWcglx8eOyhgIOAJizYOlU3Pl9SCM.jpg?w=640&s=0d6f0e7c8b6b2e79a7cb7e7d0362eba8)
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I am excited for the NEW 737
cant wait to they do a 737 max BBJ ! ;D 8)
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If you want to know how to buy airplanes cheap, follow whatever Delta does. They know how to get the best deals. That includes not ordering any new airplanes with fancy new engines. No thank you, I'll buy the old discontinued model on sale. Delta doesn't have a single NEO or MAX on order.
Delt's current aircraft on order:
Bombardier CS100, 75
Airbus A350-900, 25
Airbus A330-900neo, 25
Airbus A321-200, 100
Boeing 737-900ER, 51
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Air_Lines_fleet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Air_Lines_fleet)
i live in Hawaii and flew delta lax to Honolulu recently. Great cabin crew but OLD 757 that decided to start vibrating rather weirdly half way across. I asked if they could ask the captain what the problem was and was told they were having trouble getting the engines to run at the same rpm or something to that effect thus there was a harmonic imbalance and bad vibrations.
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This was a plane man is it a shame they fell thru.
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This was a plane. man is it a shame they fell thru.
The Concord is a perfect example of the general public's lack of understanding of the type of innovation commercial aviation needs. It was a monumental flop and probably one of the biggest financial failures in aviation history. The most important thing when designing an aircraft or any product is understanding what the customer wants and needs.
This short, fat, stumpy little aircraft is what genuine commercial aviation innovation looks like. It may not be pretty, but it's exactly what the customer wants and has sold 9,522 units, as opposed to only 20 for the Concord.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f6/Lufthansa_Boeing_737-100_in_Zurich_1981.jpg)
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Lots of couch pilots in this thread.
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Lots of couch pilots in this thread.
shut the fuck up, I have an ATP
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Delta still flies (116) MD-88, (65) MD-90, and (91) 717. These are airplanes derived from the DC-9, which first flew in 1965. The MD-88's are twenty-nine years old!. Cycles (one takeoff and landing) are what count regarding aircraft age and you can keep an aircraft running for very a long time (see third world counties), but usually after thirty years the "C" checks become prohibitively expensive and so do the repairs and corrosion they discover.
The aircraft in Aloha Airlines flight 243 accident was a (737-200) that had 89,000 cycles (the most in their fleet) with 19 years of service. The 737-200 was designed for 75,000 cycles but inspections and repairs can keep aicraft fuselages flying indefinitely.
(https://i.redditmedia.com/5OOf_Cod4L5hFFuWcglx8eOyhgIOAJizYOlU3Pl9SCM.jpg?w=640&s=0d6f0e7c8b6b2e79a7cb7e7d0362eba8)
this incident was a testament of how strong they built these 737s....only one fatality from this incident... one flight attendant was sucked out of the plane and she was never found
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shut the fuck up, I have an ATP
Airplaine transvestite potato?
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Peter Thiel recently made a comment that aerospace innovation has stalled because airplanes haven't changed much since the launch of the 747 back in 1969. I believe most people would erroneously agree with this statement because they don't understand the kind of innovation the industry wants. Case in point, the A320neo and the 737 MAX. These aircraft typify the kind of innovation the customers want. To say these aircraft are a hit is an understatement. Their order backlogs are staggering.
A320neo family orders 5,053
737 MAX family orders 3,699
When these aircraft are delivered they will transport more than six million people per day.
"New" planes but the same shitty legroom and eternal time to get on and off. And overcrowded airports, flight times the same as 40 years ago, even less space for trollies etc etc
Progress? Engines are more frugal and pollute less, but still: aviation is one of the major polluters on the planet
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"New" planes but the same shitty legroom and eternal time to get on and off. And overcrowded airports, flight times the same as 40 years ago, even less space for trollies etc etc
Progress? Engines are more frugal and pollute less, but still: aviation is one of the major polluters on the planet
Airline Ticket Prices Fell 50% in the last 30 Years.
-- In 1974, it was illegal for an airline to charge less than $1,442 in inflation-adjusted dollars for a flight between New York City and Los Angeles. On Kayak you can find one for $278.
-- In 1965, no more than 20 percent of Americans had EVER flown in an airplane. By 2000, 50 percent of the country took at least one round-trip flight a year. The average was two round-trip tickets.
-- The number of air passengers tripled between the 1970s and 2011.
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/02/how-airline-ticket-prices-fell-50-in-30-years-and-why-nobody-noticed/273506/ (https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/02/how-airline-ticket-prices-fell-50-in-30-years-and-why-nobody-noticed/273506/)
Two of the largest orders for the 737 MAX came from Indian airlines
Largest 737 MAX orders:
Lion Air, 201
SpiceJet, 142
Four of the largest orders for the A320neo came from Asian airlines
Largest A320neo orders:
IndiGo, 430
AirAsia, 404
Lion Air, 178
GoAir, 144
My point is, flying used to be limited to only the wealthiest Americans and Europeans. Now anyone in America and Europe can afford to fly, but so can many Indians, and Vietnamese.
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"New" planes but the same shitty legroom and eternal time to get on and off. And overcrowded airports, flight times the same as 40 years ago, even less space for trollies etc etc
Progress? Engines are more frugal and pollute less, but still: aviation is one of the major polluters on the planet
Why Airplanes don't fly faster than they did 40 years ago:
The Concorde aircraft could reach speeds of 1300 miles per hour at cruise altitude, but it used 46.85 pounds of fuel for every mile flown and could seat only 100 passengers. Boeing’s new 787 Dreamliner, which has a cruise speed of 648 miles per hour, uses only 18.7 pounds of fuel per mile and can seat 291 passengers.
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both the blackbird and Concorde were supersonic planes with Delta wings and were made to Hog on Fuel, Damn, I've love to fly a plane that flies faster than the earth is spinning .....rumors are, there will be a new super sonic commercial plane in a few years from now......Bring it on
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Why Airplanes don't fly faster than they did 40 years ago:
The Concorde aircraft could reach speeds of 1300 miles per hour at cruise altitude, but it used 46.85 pounds of fuel for every mile flown and could seat only 100 passengers. Boeing’s new 787 Dreamliner, which has a cruise speed of 648 miles per hour, uses only 18.7 pounds of fuel per mile and can seat 291 passengers.
More towards reality the trade-off was between faster speeds or more passengers mixed with better fuel economy/lower operating costs. Before much of this Boeing was going headlong into the Transonic Cruiser before going the 787 route. Which was a win because, as you stated, the 787 can cruise fairly close to Mach 1 and carry a lot of passengers. Great plane, Alan Mullaly gets a gold star.
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More towards reality the trade-off was between faster speeds or more passengers mixed with better fuel economy/lower operating costs. Before much of this Boeing was going headlong into the Transonic Cruiser before going the 787 route. Which was a win because, as you stated, the 787 can cruise fairly close to Mach 1 and carry a lot of passengers. Great plane, Alan Mullaly gets a gold star.
The secret to Boeing's success is so simple. They listen to what the customer wants and make it. Airbus came out with the A380 which very few airlines said they wanted and Boeing came out with the 787 that most airlines wanted. Now Boeing is working on a 797 for the middle of the market and Airbus is waiting to see what Boeing does so they can copy.
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The secret to Boeing's success is so simple. They listen to what the customer wants and make it. Airbus came out with the A380 which very few airlines said they wanted and Boeing came out with the 787 that most airlines wanted. Now Boeing is working on a 797 for the middle of the market and Airbus is waiting to see what Boeing does so they can copy.
I think Airbus was trying to Prove something to Boeing with that A380.....since the 747 has been kicking their asses for decades, Airbus felt like enough is enough and they feel like they can make a Super Jumbo and claim Bragging Rights once and for all.....I heard they're remodifying the A380 to carry more passengers. their sales stalled for almost two years now
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Airplaine transvestite potato?
Airline Transport Pilot. I have one as well.
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Flew to rehab first class on a Boeing couple a years back. Sat next to Alan's wife, Nicki. it was obvious that she wanted me, but it wasn't the time for such relations. We thew back a couple of pina coladas and she told me that Alan was an arrogant dick and bully to everybody.
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Delta Air Lines CEO Richard Anderson said Wednesday that wide-body models coming off leases are creating an “aircraft bubble,” offering his airline opportunities to acquire used 777s or A330s on the cheap.
A glut of wide-body models coming off leases is creating an “aircraft bubble,” Chief Executive Officer Richard Anderson said Wednesday.
“The aircraft market is going to be ripe for Delta over the course of the next 12 to 36 months,” Anderson said on a conference call after the airline’s third-quarter earnings report. “Prices are going to get lower.”
http://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boeing-shares-fall-as-delta-ceo-predicts-glut-of-wide-body-jets/ (http://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boeing-shares-fall-as-delta-ceo-predicts-glut-of-wide-body-jets/)
One hundred percent agree. If you wanted to buy a wide-body recently the best choice is a used 777 or A330 coming off lease. Delta is by far the best run airline of the big three domestics
Out of curiosity I looked it up.
"I was wrong when I said used 777s were on market for $10M. It was actually $7.7M. We just signed a letter of intent to buy one."
-Richard Anderson
Article
https://www.google.com/amp/247wallst.com/aerospace-defense/2015/12/18/delta-buys-used-777-for-7-7-million-sinks-boeing-shares/amp/
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i live in Hawaii and flew delta lax to Honolulu recently. Great cabin crew but OLD 757 that decided to start vibrating rather weirdly half way across. I asked if they could ask the captain what the problem was and was told they were having trouble getting the engines to run at the same rpm or something to that effect thus there was a harmonic imbalance and bad vibrations.
Was it kind of like this A330 out of Perth? :D
I'm sure the maintenance contract on those engines went to the cheapest bidder.
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Boeing's 737 MAX 10 a big hit at Paris Air Show
By Matthew Rocco
Boeing’s (BA) 737 MAX 10 is a big hit at this week’s Paris Air Show with over a dozen airlines and fleets placing orders for the larger jet.
Boeing introduced its latest jet on Monday, and a flood of orders quickly followed. The aerospace giant received commitments to sell a total of 361 MAX 10s, including 147 new orders and 214 conversions from other models. The MAX 10 accounted for more than half of Boeing’s total order book for the show, as the company sold 571 jets worth $74.8 billion.
http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2017/06/22/boeings-737-max-10-big-hit-at-paris-air-show.html (http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2017/06/22/boeings-737-max-10-big-hit-at-paris-air-show.html)
The Max 10 was the star of the Paris Air show this year, logging 361 orders, including an order for 100 from United.
(http://theatlasgroup.biz/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/gallery-large-13.jpg)
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The secret to Boeing's success is so simple. They listen to what the customer wants and make it. Airbus came out with the A380 which very few airlines said they wanted and Boeing came out with the 787 that most airlines wanted. Now Boeing is working on a 797 for the middle of the market and Airbus is waiting to see what Boeing does so they can copy.
A380 was a bad move, a plane for the wrong time. Many airports needed to be enlarged just to handle it's wingspan plus they had the initial issues with the wings developing cracks from flight stress much earlier than envisioned. Huge cool plane but airlines require something different.
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A380 was a bad move, a plane for the wrong time. Many airports needed to be enlarged just to handle it's wingspan plus they had the initial issues with the wings developing cracks from flight stress much earlier than envisioned. Huge cool plane but airlines require something different.
Honestly, the A380 is the most advanced Super Jumbo in the market right now.....any Captain would be proud to say I fly the A380....I give Airbus Mad Respect for this Mega Plane......they haven't had any major issues with the plane right now, well, except for that incident a couple years ago with one of the Rolls Royce engine, but it was a Rolls Royce issue, not Airbus, they've fixed that ....so far, so good
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Airline Transport Pilot. I have one as well.
Damn, Congrats....what kind of Plane you fly?.....they're now asking for co-pilots to have at least 1500 hours to get a license, Thanks, Obama...lol
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Damn, Congrats....what kind of Plane you fly?.....they're now asking for co-pilots to have at least 1500 hours to get a license, Thanks, Obama...lol
I flew CRJ's, nothing glamorous. I left the industry for family reasons.
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Was it kind of like this A330 out of Perth? :D
I'm sure the maintenance contract on those engines went to the cheapest bidder.
ha not as bad as that thank god.
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Getting a lot mileage out of what are considered buses with wings.
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Honestly, the A380 is the most advanced Super Jumbo in the market right now.....any Captain would be proud to say I fly the A380....I give Airbus Mad Respect for this Mega Plane......they haven't had any major issues with the plane right now, well, except for that incident a couple years ago with one of the Rolls Royce engine, but it was a Rolls Royce issue, not Airbus, they've fixed that ....so far, so good
Personally, I think the A380 and 747-8 are fantastic airplanes, but I also believe it was a business mistake to develop both of them. The A380 is estimated to have cost Airbus $28 billion to develop and as of right now they are just breaking even on it.
I think it would have made more sense if they tried to develop their own 777. They eventually figured this out years later and developed the A350 900 and 1000. What it comes down to is they didn't want to admit the A340 was an inferior product, but everyone else could see it was.
The 777 obsoleted all four engine jets back in 1995. I don't understand why Airbus didn't understand that, but they would have if they were really listening to the Airlines.
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The secret to Boeing's success is so simple. They listen to what the customer wants and make it. Airbus came out with the A380 which very few airlines said they wanted and Boeing came out with the 787 that most airlines wanted. Now Boeing is working on a 797 for the middle of the market and Airbus is waiting to see what Boeing does so they can copy.
someone in the aviation field said "its a 2 engine world"
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Personally, I think the A380 and 747-8 are fantastic airplanes, but I also believe it was a business mistake to develop both of them. The A380 is estimated to have cost Airbus $28 billion to develop and as of right now they are just breaking even on it.
I think it would have made more sense if they tried to develop their own 777. They eventually figured this out years later and developed the A350 900 and 1000. What it comes down to is they didn't want to admit the A340 was an inferior product, but everyone else could see it was.
The 777 obsoleted all four engine jets back in 1995. I don't understand why Airbus didn't understand that, but they would have if they were really listening to the Airlines.
did they have access to those huge 777 engines Boeing used?
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Thiel seems to have forgotten about gravity and fuel
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did they have access to those huge 777 engines Boeing used?
Yes, they probably could have got all three engine companies to make an engine for them. Right now the Rolls Royce is making an engine for the A350 1000 that's the same thrust as the 777. The A350 1000 is the 777 competitor they should have made instead of the A380, and it's selling very well.
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Edit: contra-rotating props (mixmaster) were a maintenance pain in the ass
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I'm finding this thread surprisingly interesting.