Author Topic: Fox promoted the Moon Landing Hoax Conspiracy Theory.  (Read 1897 times)

240 is Back

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Re: Fox promoted the Moon Landing Hoax Conspiracy Theory.
« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2009, 09:51:48 AM »
oh brother, here we go again.  You go to PRISON if you leak shit that is classified on its way up.

find someone who is new to this CT shit to have this conversation with man.  I'll talk palin and obama with you all day.  But if you read pnac and knew about all the anomalies of that day and the 29 documented warnings, you'd be the biggest CTer in the bunch.  instead, you were in the city and refuse to believe your fear that day was just you being duped by some people trying to get rich. 

I'll see ya on the global warming and obama threads :)

Skip8282

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Re: Fox promoted the Moon Landing Hoax Conspiracy Theory.
« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2009, 10:01:46 AM »

10 characteristics of conspiracy theorists
A useful guide by Donna Ferentes

http://www.urban75.org/info/conspiraloons.html

1. Arrogance. They are always fact-seekers, questioners, people who are trying to discover the truth: sceptics are always "sheep", patsies for Messrs Bush and Blair etc.

2. Relentlessness. They will always go on and on about a conspiracy no matter how little evidence they have to go on or how much of what they have is simply discredited. (Moreover, as per 1. above, even if you listen to them ninety-eight times, the ninety-ninth time, when you say "no thanks", you'll be called a "sheep" again.) Additionally, they have no capacity for precis whatsoever. They go on and on at enormous length.

3. Inability to answer questions. For people who loudly advertise their determination to the principle of questioning everything, they're pretty poor at answering direct questions from sceptics about the claims that they make.

4. Fondness for certain stock phrases. These include Cicero's "cui bono?" (of which it can be said that Cicero understood the importance of having evidence to back it up) and Conan Doyle's "once we have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however unlikely, must be the truth". What these phrases have in common is that they are attempts to absolve themselves from any responsibility to produce positive, hard evidence themselves: you simply "eliminate the impossible" (i.e. say the official account can't stand scrutiny) which means that the wild allegation of your choice, based on "cui bono?" (which is always the government) is therefore the truth.

5. Inability to employ or understand Occam's Razor. Aided by the principle in 4. above, conspiracy theorists never notice that the small inconsistencies in the accounts which they reject are dwarfed by the enormous, gaping holes in logic, likelihood and evidence in any alternative account.

6. Inability to tell good evidence from bad. Conspiracy theorists have no place for peer-review, for scientific knowledge, for the respectability of sources. The fact that a claim has been made by anybody, anywhere, is enough for them to reproduce it and demand that the questions it raises be answered, as if intellectual enquiry were a matter of responding to every rumour. While they do this, of course, they will claim to have "open minds" and abuse the sceptics for apparently lacking same.

7. Inability to withdraw. It's a rare day indeed when a conspiracy theorist admits that a claim they have made has turned out to be without foundation, whether it be the overall claim itself or any of the evidence produced to support it. Moreover they have a liking (see 3. above) for the technique of avoiding discussion of their claims by "swamping" - piling on a whole lot more material rather than respond to the objections sceptics make to the previous lot.

8. Leaping to conclusions. Conspiracy theorists are very keen indeed to declare the "official" account totally discredited without having remotely enough cause so to do. Of course this enables them to wheel on the Conan Doyle quote as in 4. above. Small inconsistencies in the account of an event, small unanswered questions, small problems in timing of differences in procedure from previous events of the same kind are all more than adequate to declare the "official" account clearly and definitively discredited. It goes without saying that it is not necessary to prove that these inconsistencies are either relevant, or that they even definitely exist.

9. Using previous conspiracies as evidence to support their claims. This argument invokes scandals like the Birmingham Six, the Bologna station bombings, the Zinoviev letter and so on in order to try and demonstrate that their conspiracy theory should be accorded some weight (because it's “happened before”.) They do not pause to reflect that the conspiracies they are touting are almost always far more unlikely and complicated than the real-life conspiracies with which they make comparison, or that the fact that something might potentially happen does not, in and of itself, make it anything other than extremely unlikely.

10. It's always a conspiracy. And it is, isn't it? No sooner has the body been discovered, the bomb gone off, than the same people are producing the same old stuff, demanding that there are questions which need to be answered, at the same unbearable length. Because the most important thing about these people is that they are people entirely lacking in discrimination. They cannot tell a good theory from a bad one, they cannot tell good evidence from bad evidence and they cannot tell a good source from a bad one. And for that reason, they always come up with the same answer when they ask the same question.

A person who always says the same thing, and says it over and over again is, of course, commonly considered to be, if not a monomaniac, then at very least, a bore.




Every single one of these fits SAMSON to a tee.

SAMSON123

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Re: Fox promoted the Moon Landing Hoax Conspiracy Theory.
« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2009, 10:06:43 AM »
so basically.....there are those (cough basement boy cough) who are CT Sluts?

You keep coughing you will develop Pneumonia...
C

OzmO

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Re: Fox promoted the Moon Landing Hoax Conspiracy Theory.
« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2009, 10:22:00 AM »
You keep coughing you will develop Pneumonia...
Is that another CT or yours?   Coughing causes pneumonia?

Skip8282

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Re: Fox promoted the Moon Landing Hoax Conspiracy Theory.
« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2009, 10:23:22 AM »
lol

Soul Crusher

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Re: Fox promoted the Moon Landing Hoax Conspiracy Theory.
« Reply #30 on: December 12, 2009, 10:30:33 AM »
Look, I'm up for a good CT any day.  But at some point one has to be able to sift through the crap to see what actually makes sense and is plausible and what does not.

With regard to the 9/11 CT's, I simply have not seen a credible CT that holds up.  Its not that I doubt people would want to do it, but what has been put forst so far really doesnt hold up.  

Skip8282

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Re: Fox promoted the Moon Landing Hoax Conspiracy Theory.
« Reply #31 on: December 12, 2009, 07:16:09 PM »
still no takers?


Uhhh...you may wish to review characteristics #3, #6, and #10 of Ozmo's list.  :D

Skip8282

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Re: Fox promoted the Moon Landing Hoax Conspiracy Theory.
« Reply #32 on: December 12, 2009, 07:32:17 PM »
sorry, no offense but I think Ozmo's list is garbage.  It's another implementation of mockery over debate.  I concede I'm being ignored on the evidence provided which is disapointing, but I'm not willing to use mockery like Ozmo does.


I'm not sure the list is mockery, but I agree it isn't debate.  Nobody could effectively challenge you when you originally posted the thread, so I don't think they'll take you up on it now.  Or maybe 240 just needs some time to gather his counter argument.

240 is Back

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Re: Fox promoted the Moon Landing Hoax Conspiracy Theory.
« Reply #33 on: December 12, 2009, 07:35:25 PM »
i'm just skimming at the moment, don't have the time to analyze all that hugo.  What is your position on the matter?  no silly moon CT?

Hugo Chavez

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Re: Fox promoted the Moon Landing Hoax Conspiracy Theory.
« Reply #34 on: December 12, 2009, 07:39:27 PM »

I'm not sure the list is mockery, but I agree it isn't debate.  Nobody could effectively challenge you when you originally posted the thread, so I don't think they'll take you up on it now.  Or maybe 240 just needs some time to gather his counter argument.
it's mockery plane and simple imo.  Favorite tool for skeptics and Ozmo excells at it.

MB_722

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Re: Fox promoted the Moon Landing Hoax Conspiracy Theory.
« Reply #35 on: December 12, 2009, 07:41:08 PM »


Hugo, I'm to juiced and I'm taking a break from all this stuff. Sorry buddy :D

Cheers!  8)

Hugo Chavez

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Re: Fox promoted the Moon Landing Hoax Conspiracy Theory.
« Reply #36 on: December 12, 2009, 07:42:28 PM »
i'm just skimming at the moment, don't have the time to analyze all that hugo.  What is your position on the matter?  no silly moon CT?
not sure how you don't know what my position is.  It's simply that I believe there is evidence proving we landed on the moon.  Someone needs to show the falacy in my findings for me to consider otherwise. 

Hugo Chavez

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Re: Fox promoted the Moon Landing Hoax Conspiracy Theory.
« Reply #37 on: December 12, 2009, 07:48:25 PM »

Hugo, I'm to juiced and I'm taking a break from all this stuff. Sorry buddy :D

Cheers!  8)
are you depressed?

OzmO

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Re: Fox promoted the Moon Landing Hoax Conspiracy Theory.
« Reply #38 on: December 12, 2009, 07:51:59 PM »
I excel at mockery?  Sweet.

So when a CT'er accuses people of being sheep they are not mocking?

I don't think you fully understand what a skeptic approach is.  Here's a easy about it:

Some people believe that skepticism is the rejection of new ideas, or worse, they confuse “skeptic” with “cynic” and think that skeptics are a bunch of grumpy curmudgeons unwilling to accept any claim that challenges the status quo. This is wrong. Skepticism is a provisional approach to claims. It is the application of reason to any and all ideas — no sacred cows allowed. In other words, skepticism is a method, not a position. Ideally, skeptics do not go into an investigation closed to the possibility that a phenomenon might be real or that a claim might be true. When we say we are “skeptical,” we mean that we must see compelling evidence before we believe.

Skepticism has a long historical tradition dating back to ancient Greece, when Socrates observed: “All I know is that I know nothing.” But this pure position is sterile and unproductive and held by virtually no one. If you were skeptical about everything, you would have to be skeptical of your own skepticism. Like the decaying subatomic particle, pure skepticism uncoils and spins off the viewing screen of our intellectual cloud chamber.

Modern skepticism is embodied in the scientific method, which involves gathering data to formulate and test naturalistic explanations for natural phenomena. A claim becomes factual when it is confirmed to such an extent it would be reasonable to offer temporary agreement. But all facts in science are provisional and subject to challenge, and therefore skepticism is a method leading to provisional conclusions. Some claims, such as water dowsing, ESP, and creationism, have been tested (and failed the tests) often enough that we can provisionally conclude that they are not valid. Other claims, such as hypnosis, the origins of language, and black holes, have been tested but results are inconclusive so we must continue formulating and testing hypotheses and theories until we can reach a provisional conclusion.

The key to skepticism is to continuously and vigorously apply the methods of science to navigate the treacherous straits between “know nothing” skepticism and “anything goes” credulity. Over three centuries ago the French philosopher and skeptic, René Descartes, after one of the most thorough skeptical purges in intellectual history, concluded that he knew one thing for certain: Cogito ergo sum — I think therefore I am. But evolution may have designed us in the other direction. Humans evolved to be pattern-seeking, cause-inferring animals, shaped by nature to find meaningful relationships in the world. Those who were best at doing this left behind the most offspring. We are their descendents. In other words, to be human is to think:

Sum Ergo Cogito —
I Am Therefore I Think.

________________________ ________________________ ________________________ ___________________

Here's another list or group of assertions about CT's:

“Initiated on the basis of limited, partial or circumstantial evidence”
“Addresses an event or process that has broad historical or emotional impact”
“Reduces morally complex social phenomena to simple, immoral actions... Personifies complex social phenomena as powerful individual conspirators”
“Allots superhuman talents or resources to conspirators”
“Key steps in argument rely on inductive, not deductive reasoning”
“Appeals to ‘common sense’”
“Exhibits well-established logical and methodological fallacies”
“Is produced and circulated by 'outsiders', often anonymous, and generally lacking peer review”

“Is upheld by persons with demonstrably false conceptions of [the] relevant science... Enjoys zero credibility in expert communities. At least some of the story's believers believe it on the basis of a mistaken grasp of elementary scientific facts.”

“Rebuttals provided by experts are ignored or accommodated through elaborate new twists in the narrative”
“The conspiracy is claimed to involve just about anybody... The conspiracy centers on the ‘usual suspects’”



Hugo Chavez

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Re: Fox promoted the Moon Landing Hoax Conspiracy Theory.
« Reply #39 on: December 12, 2009, 08:18:42 PM »
sorry Ozmo, it's true.  You've always lay out a big dish of mockery for CTrs here.  A hell of a lot more than "sheeple"  Also, the sheeple thing is tossed by a lot of people for a lot of reasons.  Usually used for people who are unwilling to question anything.  A valid criticism since there are people like that.  You know the type, if Fox or MSNBC didn't say it, it didn't happen and the type that believes our government would never lie.  Now if we start talking about things like suggesting the person is digging a bunker to hide in, tinfoil hat type suggestions, yes you excel at it.  Do you really want me to search your posts and start the list?  LOL, I will if you really want.

Hugo Chavez

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Re: Fox promoted the Moon Landing Hoax Conspiracy Theory.
« Reply #40 on: December 12, 2009, 08:25:22 PM »
but Ozmo, you've been way better with me, when we're talking conspiracy and it's much appreciated so I don't mean to attack you entirely.  I do appreciate that you've saved the mockery in our discussions.  But you do put it out thick at times for others.

OzmO

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Re: Fox promoted the Moon Landing Hoax Conspiracy Theory.
« Reply #41 on: December 12, 2009, 08:35:38 PM »
I agree I do.  Don't go through the trouble.    :-[

But usually its for the way out stuff.  Initially, (unless its Samson123) I try and give it a chance unless it's just too silly.  The mockery is often triggered by like mockery from the other side.  But i will admit, I don't wait for it to come from some people.  Some of the stuff posted is just way too inflamitory IMO.  Obama ceding America's sovereignty?  Winchester providing bullets to kill americans?  I mean com on.

Most of the time for me, however, it becomes a great opportunity to learn about a given event or subject.

I just figured I'd take default "opposing position" and work it from there most of the time using a skeptic approach as a way of finding the truth.

MB_722

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Re: Fox promoted the Moon Landing Hoax Conspiracy Theory.
« Reply #42 on: December 13, 2009, 10:44:27 AM »
are you depressed?

nope  :)

happy to say things are going well.