Author Topic: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.  (Read 42639 times)

tu_holmes

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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #350 on: June 04, 2009, 11:58:37 AM »
That "pro abortion folks typically try and dehumanize the baby, which is much easier if they haven't actually been involved with the development of a child from conception through birth."  

Seems like a poor generalization.

Straw Man

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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #351 on: June 04, 2009, 11:59:52 AM »
LOL ill find some straw dont worry

your logic on the legal aspect is pretty sound but as i pointed out i dont want to hear you bitch about it if its overturned or anything else that you disagree with thats legal, b/c according to your logic legality makes it right...

I'll retain my right to free speech just like you will

btw - I have no problem with the pro-life point of view as long as they apply it only to themselves.

I do have a problem with using bad science and out right lies (not you per se but the prolife movement) and I absolutely have a problem with the intimidation tactics outside womens health clinic and of course any type of violence

Straw Man

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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #352 on: June 04, 2009, 12:01:46 PM »
That "pro abortion folks typically try and dehumanize the baby, which is much easier if they haven't actually been involved with the development of a child from conception through birth."   

there is no group that calls themselves PRO abortion

Dos Equis

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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #353 on: June 04, 2009, 12:04:56 PM »
So I've been reading about the late "Tiller the Baby Killer."  Gruesome stuff.  Keep in mind his practice was focused on killing third trimester babies.  I think reasonable people, particularly those who have been involved with pregnancies through birth, have no trouble concluding that a third trimester baby is actually a "baby" and not just some mass of cells.  

Here is a description of the process he used:

Tiller has developed a late-term abortion method that he calls MOLD.  MOLD is an abbreviation of the components used in the abortion: Misoprostol, Oxytocin, Laminaria, and Digoxin.  Tiller claims this method duplicates "normal, safe, natural miscarriage".

On the first day of the process, Tiller kills the baby by injecting a drug called Digoxin into its heart. Tiller guides a long needle through the mother's abdomen into the baby's beating heart.

Tiller claims the baby feels no pain, but he doesn't explain how the heart drug Digoxin can accomplish this.

Also on the first day, Tiller inserts laminaria into the woman's cervix.

Laminaria are thin sticks of seaweed material that absorb moisture and expand. The process dilates (opens) the cervix for the abortion. Tiller will replace the laminaria each day using more sticks each time.  This process can take several days.  

Several women who have told their abortion stories say the laminaria is very painful.  Some say they still experience pain years after their abortions.  "Jeanne"said, "I have permanent cervical scarring from the laminaria that will cause me pain the rest of my life."  "Jessica" said, "I have had nothing but problems with my female parts. I have had cervical dysplasia, which is bad cells in your cervix that require many painful treatments."  "LaDonna" described the pain as Tiller and his staff inserted the laminaria, "I had this horrible pain in my cervix that to this day I can't explain (to this day I still experience that pain from time to time)."

After the baby is dead and the cervix is fully dilated, Tiller delivers the dead baby while the mother is under twilight anesthesia.  He uses Versed and Nubain for anesthesia. Misoprostol and Oxytocin are used to induce labor.  Misoprostol (Cytotec) is an ulcer medication that is not labeled for use in abortions.  Tiller uses this medication "off label."

Up to ten women at a time will be in a communal "labor and delivery" area with only a curtain to separate them.

The whole process takes several days... usually starting on a Tuesday and ending on a Thursday or a Friday. During this time, the mother often stays at a motel.  In a video he made, Tiller admits that sometimes a dead baby is born at the motel . . . .

http://www.dr-tiller.com/methods.htm

Also, this man was accused of performing third trimester abortions because of things like "depression."  

Dos Equis

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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #354 on: June 04, 2009, 12:05:33 PM »
Seems like a poor generalization.

O.K.  That's your opinion. 

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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #355 on: June 04, 2009, 12:07:39 PM »
That "pro abortion folks typically try and dehumanize the baby, which is much easier if they haven't actually been involved with the development of a child from conception through birth."   

Not having actually been involved with the development of a fetus from conception through birth, hasn't stopped the "pro-lifers" from dictating what a stranger can and cannot do with their body. From what I gather, ...they also won't be involved after the birth either. But dammit, they'll tell a woman what to do  :-\
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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #356 on: June 04, 2009, 12:09:10 PM »
Here are comments from a woman who had a baby killed by Tiller when she was seven months pregnant.  Says she was raped.  Not sure why she waited so long for the abortion.   :-\

I was referred to tiller's clinic by another abortion clinic, because I was too far along or them to perform an abortion for me. That was the hardest week of my entire life.

My father and I arrived in Wichita on a Sunday morning and Tiller had us come into the clinic that afternoon to fill out the paperwork and so he could get the waiting period out of the way. On that day, I had my one-on-one consultation with him, and I explained to him that I has been raped, and I didn't feel like I could have the baby, but I wasn't sure about the abortion either. He asked me if I could stand having the baby and giving it up for adoption, not knowing where he was. I said that would be hard on me. Then he asked me about my plans for the future, and I said that I planned on going to college, and he asked me if I thought I could do that having a baby. I said no, but I still was unsure about the abortion. He said that if I changed my mind and left and then wanted to come back, I would have to wait a week and it would cost my parents more money and they had already put out so much to come that far. At that point, I agreed with him that abortion was the best option for me.

I went back into the clinic Monday morning and I met the other girls in my group. There were 8 of us including me. I only really bonded with one girl on that day. Dr. Tiller took us one by one to give us sonograms. He did mine and he told me I was almost 28 weeks pregnant and he would perform my abortion. At that point, he took out a long needle and told me that he was going to stop the fetal heartbeat with an injection to his heart. He shoved the needle into my stomach, and I jumped because it hurt. He yelled at me and told me if I move, he will just have to do it again. I stayed still and I remember staring at the ceiling trying not cry staring at this koala bear poster. After that, he and Edna did my first round of laminaria. That hurt like hell too. I kept writhing around on the table, and he got angry again. He held up his hand and told me that he was going to give me a biology lesson, that my body was bending in ways that his fingers did not and I was just making it harder on myself to move, that it would hurt worse the more I moved. After everyone in my group was done, we went into our first group counseling session with Fran. I honestly don't remember much about the first session except for a lot of crying and Fran held my hand the whole time because I was the youngest one in the group.

Over the next few days, they changed the laminaria and we had more counseling. The whole process was physically painful.

Finally, Thursday came and it was time for him to induce my labor. We all were at the clinic at 6:00 am that day. Me and the 7 other girls were taken into the basement where the beds are all lined up side by side and given hospital gowns to change into. I was in the 4th bed and after we were all changed and in our beds, the nurses came around and hooked us up to IV bags. I had two IV needles stuck in me, one in my hand and the other at the side of my wrist. Then, they put in the oxytocin to induce my labor, and I immediately felt like I was going to die. The contractions were so strong and I felt like I had to pee really bad, so I told the nurse and she said I didn't have to, it was just my water. I made her take me to the bathroom and I could not pee. She then told me it was time to go see the doctor. She took me into the operating room and I asked him for a painkiller and he told me that I would not be getting any painkillers during the procedure because it would increase my risk of complications. He told me that I better not scream or I would scare his first trimester patients upstairs. Then, he said he was going to break my water, he took long curved scissors type things and broke my water. It was just a gush and it somehow came back onto my gown and it soaked me. He got annoyed and said that now he had to change my gown. I told him that I hurt so much that I didn't care about the stupid gown. He said he did care and he changed it. Then, he put his whole entire hand inside of me to turn the baby around. Then he took the forceps and pulled him down further. I was crying and I begged him for painkillers again and he said no, not to ask again. I had no drug addiction or any reason why he could not give me pain medication. He just told me that it would increase my risk of complications, no other explanation out of him.

He yelled at me quite a bit throughout my procedure because I was hurting. He then sent me back to my bed and told me not to push until he told me to. I laid there for awhile and I couldn't help it. I started to push. Then, the nurse came and took me into the bathroom where she laid this blue thing over the toilet, and she told me to start pushing. I did and on my last push, she put something in my IV that knocked me out. The next thing I remember is waking up in my bed and seeing my chart on the wall behind me. I grabbed it to look at it and that's how I found out that my baby was a boy. Then, Edna grabbed my chart and said I wasn't allowed to look at it. After that, I had to go back and see Tiller, and he suctioned something out of me. The next day, he did a follow up exam and that was it.

Edna was very rude and condescending the entire time I was there. On my way our after my induction (after I had just given "birth".) I was sitting in the private room waiting for Tiller and I had put my feet up onto the couch and she asked me if I was born in a barn and told me to get me feet off the couch.

While I was at the clinic, he made me sign a paper saying that if I had any complications during the procedure, I would go to the nurse staying in the hotel with us, never to the emergency room.

I have permanent cervical scarring from the laminaria that will cause me pain the rest of my life.

http://www.dr-tiller.com/jeanne.htm

Dos Equis

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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #357 on: June 04, 2009, 12:10:51 PM »
Not having actually been involved with the development of a fetus from conception through birth, hasn't stopped the "pro-lifers" from dictating what a stranger can and cannot do with their body. From what I gather, ...they also won't be involved after the birth either. But dammit, they'll tell a woman what to do  :-\

It's not that simple.  They're concerned about the baby.  The issue is whether a woman should have the right to choose whether or not to kill her baby.  No easy answers.  We will never have a solution to this problem IMO. 

Straw Man

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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #358 on: June 04, 2009, 12:15:32 PM »
Here are comments from a woman who had a baby killed by Tiller when she was seven months pregnant.  Says she was raped.  Not sure why she waited so long for the abortion.   :-\

maybe in the future the unfortunate rape victim (or incest victim) will be forced to bear the child of her rapist.  Is that what you would prefer.....even if it happened to your wife or daughter?

Why do you ignore the many many more testimonials of people who truly wanted children and had to make the heartbreaking choice to have a late term abortion to save their own life or to terminate a child that would only live a short a horrible life?

Why do you continue to inflamatory language when you refer to Dr. Tiller?


tonymctones

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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #359 on: June 04, 2009, 12:17:29 PM »
I'll retain my right to free speech just like you will

btw - I have no problem with the pro-life point of view as long as they apply it only to themselves.

I do have a problem with using bad science and out right lies (not you per se but the prolife movement) and I absolutely have a problem with the intimidation tactics outside womens health clinic and of course any type of violence
as do i bro which is why i feel that tillers murder was complete and utter crap and that guy should get the max penalty he hadnt been convicted of anything and even if he had it wasnt that nutjobs place to deliver the punishment i dont agree with all of tillers actions it seems obvious to me that at times he worked outside the law but that in no way justifies what this dude did

and in general i try and base my opinions as much of fact as possible and when facts are undefined or muddled i try approach it in the most logical way i can.

tonymctones

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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #360 on: June 04, 2009, 12:24:19 PM »
HEY JAGALICIOUS we aint finished my love  ;)

i can understand that but your logic for supporting an abortion is that nobody should be able to tell a women what to do with her own body correct?

getting married doesnt equate to ownership of her body or does it? i understand what your saying but by your logic for abortion the husband has no more say as the guy who had a one night stand...revise your logic

Dos Equis

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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #361 on: June 04, 2009, 12:26:35 PM »
maybe in the future the unfortunate rape victim (or incest victim) will be forced to bear the child of her rapist.  Is that what you would prefer.....even if it happened to your wife or daughter?

Why do you ignore the many many more testimonials of people who truly wanted children and had to make the heartbreaking choice to have a late term abortion to save their own life or to terminate a child that would only live a short a horrible life?

Why do you continue to inflamatory language when you refer to Dr. Tiller?



My family isn't the issue.  

I'm not ignoring anything.  I'm highligting the fact that not all of "Tiller the Baby Killer's abortions were for the purpose of saving the mother's life or killing a deformed/disabled baby.  Or as he once said:   "But, for whatever reason that you are here... we find that there are many reasons why women find that continuing the pregnancy will cause substantial and irreversible impairment of their physical health, their mental health, their emotional health, their family health, age of the patient, safety and well-being... for whatever reason that you are here, welcome to Wichita, and thank you for the opportunity to be helpful to you."  http://www.dr-tiller.com/elective.htm

I'm using "inflamatory language" because I feel like it.  

Straw Man

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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #362 on: June 04, 2009, 12:34:23 PM »
as do i bro which is why i feel that tillers murder was complete and utter crap and that guy should get the max penalty he hadnt been convicted of anything and even if he had it wasnt that nutjobs place to deliver the punishment i dont agree with all of tillers actions it seems obvious to me that at times he worked outside the law but that in no way justifies what this dude did

and in general i try and base my opinions as much of fact as possible and when facts are undefined or muddled i try approach it in the most logical way i can.

Why do you choose to ignore all the women (families) that he helped who were in truly horrible situations?

Straw Man

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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #363 on: June 04, 2009, 12:36:30 PM »
My family isn't the issue.  

I'm not ignoring anything.  I'm highligting the fact that not all of "Tiller the Baby Killer's abortions were for the purpose of saving the mother's life or killing a deformed/disabled baby.  Or as he once said:   "But, for whatever reason that you are here... we find that there are many reasons why women find that continuing the pregnancy will cause substantial and irreversible impairment of their physical health, their mental health, their emotional health, their family health, age of the patient, safety and well-being... for whatever reason that you are here, welcome to Wichita, and thank you for the opportunity to be helpful to you."  http://www.dr-tiller.com/elective.htm

I'm using "inflamatory language" because I feel like it.  

so you'd rather focus on a tiny few which are still perfectly legal but to which you simply disagree?

Also, are you aware that the type of language you use can have an effect on the mentally unstable people who share your view (or perhaps have even more extreme views).   You don't see that as being irresponsible?

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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #364 on: June 04, 2009, 12:38:15 PM »
HEY JAGALICIOUS we aint finished my love  ;)


I thought we had already established the fact that I'm not your love? You have such a short memory.  :-\
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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #365 on: June 04, 2009, 12:44:19 PM »
so you'd rather focus on a tiny few which are still perfectly legal but to which you simply disagree?

Also, are you aware that the type of language you use can have an effect on the mentally unstable people who share your view (or perhaps have even more extreme views).   You don't see that as being irresponsible?

I'm not focusing on anything.  I'm providing better context.  For example:  

1.  He didn't kill third trimester babies solely to save the mother's life or to kill a deformed/disabled baby.  Killing third trimester babies because a woman is depressed about being pregnant and took months to figure out she wants to kill her baby is not admirable at all.  This is part of the reason the man was prosecuted.

2.  Discussion of first trimester abortions and "Tiller the Baby Killer" are pretty irrelevant, because that's not what his practice was about.  

3.  There is no question that a third trimester baby is a baby.  After reading about the procedure, I think what he did, at least in some instances, was tantamount to infanticide.    

I see no problem with calling the late "Tiller the Baby Killer" by a nickname that he earned.  I could care less if some "mentally unstable" person reads that moniker on this board, which is all over the freakin internet.  Nothing irresponsible about it all.  Dumb question.

Plus he's dead, so what difference does it make?    

tonymctones

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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #366 on: June 04, 2009, 12:48:54 PM »
Why do you choose to ignore all the women (families) that he helped who were in truly horrible situations?
whoa where did i ever say that? i said that its clear that AT TIMES he worked outside the law not that he never helped anybody...

im not denying that he has helped ppl just like you cant deny that there are women out there who feel that he helped them make a horrible decision...

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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #367 on: June 04, 2009, 12:50:55 PM »
I thought we had already established the fact that I'm not your love? You have such a short memory.  :-\
actually i have a fantastic memory, i just really attracted to a women who believes that i get ownership of her body when we get married :P will you marry me...i promise only to smack you around if you really get out of line  ;D

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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #368 on: June 04, 2009, 12:55:20 PM »
I'm not focusing on anything.  I'm providing better context.  For example:  

1. He didn't kill third trimester babies solely to save the mother's life or to kill a deformed/disabled baby.  Killing third trimester babies because a woman is depressed about being pregnant and took months to figure out she wants to kill her baby is not admirable at all.  This is part of the reason the man was prosecuted.

you're lying. 

this is from your own link:  Tiller's website only advertises "2nd Trimester Elective and 2nd/3rd Trimester Therapeutic Abortion Care".

He was prosecuted and also acquited on all charges..... why did you leave that part out?


3.  There is no question that a third trimester baby is a baby.  After reading about the procedure, I think what he did, at least in some instances, was tantamount to infanticide.    

again - third trimester only for the health of the mother - why do you continue to lie

I see no problem with calling the late "Tiller the Baby Killer" by a nickname that he earned.  I could care less if some "mentally unstable" person reads that moniker on this board, which is all over the freakin internet.  Nothing irresponsible about it all.  Dumb question.

Plus he's dead, so what difference does it make?    


it matters because it could happen again and calling the man a killer is wrong because it's based on lies and ignorance

Straw Man

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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #369 on: June 04, 2009, 01:00:09 PM »
whoa where did i ever say that? i said that its clear that AT TIMES he worked outside the law not that he never helped anybody...

im not denying that he has helped ppl just like you cant deny that there are women out there who feel that he helped them make a horrible decision...

how it is clear to you that he worked outside the law.


Dos Equis

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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #370 on: June 04, 2009, 01:03:45 PM »
you're lying. 

this is from your own link:  Tiller's website only advertises "2nd Trimester Elective and 2nd/3rd Trimester Therapeutic Abortion Care".

He was prosecuted and also acquited on all charges..... why did you leave that part out?

again - third trimester only for the health of the mother - why do you continue to lie

it matters because it could happen again and calling the man a killer is wrong because it's based on lies and ignorance

::)  Okay genius, "therapeutic" included mental health.  From the link I posted earlier:    Dr. Paul McHugh is a Professor of Psychiatry at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine.  McHugh was hired by the then-Kansas Attorney General Phill Kline to review some of Tiller's records. McHugh said the records show Tiller performed abortions for trivial reasons.  One woman even said she was having a late-term, abortion because she wanted to go to a rock concert.  Click here to see Dr. McHugh's interview in Lenexa, Kansas on June 11, 2007.  http://www.dr-tiller.com/elective.htm

I don't give a rip if he was acquitted.  OJ was acquitted.  Big friggin deal.

I created a thread about "Tiller the Baby Killer" and updated the thread to include a story about his acquittal.   http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=114147.0

I have no problem with his nickname.  I don't care if you have a problem with it.  

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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #371 on: June 04, 2009, 01:06:30 PM »
actually i have a fantastic memory, i just really attracted to a women who believes that i get ownership of her body when we get married :P will you marry me...i promise only to smack you around if you really get out of line  ;D

Actually, you have it backwards... A man has to be able to own my body before I'd ever consent to marry him  :P
...but in your case, ...I might make an exception... depending on how insurable you are. Are you insurable?
And I'm not talking health insurance, ...I'm talking life insurance, ... a multi-gadzillion dollar euro policy, that pays out to me in the event of your death by disease, accidental means, acts of war, acts of God, violence, natural causes, or even suicide. I don't want dollars, those things are fast becoming worthless.
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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #372 on: June 04, 2009, 01:14:13 PM »
Beach Bum - It's pretty reasonable to draw your conclusion on Dr Tiller.  However, i would urge you to nto be so hasty in saying he performed abortions for 'depression' etc.  You nor I have ZERO medical proof that this is the case.  You and I have ZERO understanding of each individual case.  These testimonials may have some truth to them, they may have some fabrication.  They may be a way of searching out blame for not having a child. 

Once again though the religious right, anti-abortion crew have jumped on something they don't understand.  That is the case by case basis with which Dr Tiller dealt with patients.  Some may have had a bad experience and from reading some tesitmonals that's probably the case.  Some however, are forever thankful for the services provided for a fetus that would surely die outside of the womb or other circumstances. 

Fact is though you are passing judgement with no facts.  You do not personally know each case and the reasons behind it.  You are generalizing that he terminated pregnancy for almost no cause or reason. 

Oh and it's abortion not killing.  It's not Illegal nor will it ever be in the United States of America.  Please save the 'tiller the killer' rhetoric for your terrorist meetings.  This is not one of those.   
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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #373 on: June 04, 2009, 01:15:57 PM »
::)  Okay genius, "therapeutic" included mental health.  From the link I posted earlier:    Dr. Paul McHugh is a Professor of Psychiatry at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine.  McHugh was hired by the then-Kansas Attorney General Phill Kline to review some of Tiller's records. McHugh said the records show Tiller performed abortions for trivial reasons.  One woman even said she was having a late-term, abortion because she wanted to go to a rock concert.  Click here to see Dr. McHugh's interview in Lenexa, Kansas on June 11, 2007.  http://www.dr-tiller.com/elective.htm

I don't give a rip if he was acquitted.  OJ was acquitted.  Big friggin deal.

I created a thread about "Tiller the Baby Killer" and updated the thread to include a story about his acquittal.   http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=114147.0

I have no problem with his nickname.  I don't care if you have a problem with it.  


Gotcha - so when someone is acquitted on all charges you just choose to ignore it and keep believing whatever you want as long as it supports your preconceived notions.

Please show me some proof that Tiller performed an abortion because the woman stated she wanted to go to a rock concert.  

That smacks of the typical lie that the dumber people in your crowd fall for hook line and sinker

btw - there is no correlation btw. Tiller and OJ but kudo's to you continuing your habit of conflation

kcballer

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Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #374 on: June 04, 2009, 01:20:35 PM »
I've always found it rather ironic that so many men get upset by abortion, yet there aren't any where near the actions taken to help single mothers.

My stance has been if you want to ban abortion, then make leaving the mother of your child illegal.  Make it enforceable by law that the man has to be in the child's life and pay 50% of all costs not just some meger % every month while he can be free from responsibility.   
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