So I got laid off about 3 weeks ago. I worked as an internal wholesaler for variable annuities primarily. It seems like financial sales are no longer going be as lucrative or as widespread as they once were. I am fortunate enough that I can take a little time to make my next move, I might even go back to school.
Now I am certainly not asking people online to decide my life path. Just looking to get a conversation going about what you think maybe are the best jobs/careers for the future. I have done financial services for the last 5 years, so it is a bit concerning with the way everything is. Maybe I should just stay home and grow a garden and get animals, who knows. Still need an income though. Thoughts?
farmer and marksman
So I got laid off about 3 weeks ago. I worked as an internal wholesaler for variable annuities primarily. It seems like financial sales are no longer going be as lucrative or as widespread as they once were. I am fortunate enough that I can take a little time to make my next move, I might even go back to school.
Now I am certainly not asking people online to decide my life path. Just looking to get a conversation going about what you think maybe are the best jobs/careers for the future. I have done financial services for the last 5 years, so it is a bit concerning with the way everything is. Maybe I should just stay home and grow a garden and get animals, who knows. Still need an income though. Thoughts?
1) Network Marketing
2) Anything Green
3) BioTech field
Network marketing is a scam and a ponzi scheme.
No Outsourcing Here: How to Train for the Best American Jobs
by Patricia Cecil-Reed
White and blue-collar jobs alike have felt the sting of outsourcing in recent years, as companies send jobs overseas to countries where the labor can be performed more cheaply. There are plenty of excellent professions that are not going anywhere, and in fact are expected to grow considerably over the next seven years, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics. Below are some of the best, in terms of salary and job growth, along with information about how to train for these careers.
Education Administrator, Elementary or Secondary School
While online education is an increasingly popular option for college-level students, younger students still need live teachers, and live teachers require supervision by education administrators.
Career Training: A master's degree in education administration or educational leadership, plus related experience in a field such as teaching or school administration, is the most common route to becoming an education administrator.
Average Annual Salary: $82,120.
Job Outlook: 12 percent growth is expected between now and 2016. Some of the most secure jobs will be for public school administrators, since public schools are funded by public tax dollars.
Physical Therapist
Health care jobs are a great bet for job safety in terms of outsourcing worries. Not only is health care the largest industry in the US, employing over 14 million people in 2006, but it deals with a population that needs hands-on, personal care.
Within health care, physical therapists are essential. An increasing elderly population, new technology in the field, and longer life expectancies of disabled patients are all contributing factors to this important and quickly growing profession.
Career Training: A master's degree in physical therapy and state licensure is a requirement for most physical therapists. The master's degree program for physical therapists usually takes two years.
Average Annual Salary: $71,520.
Job Outlook: Much faster than average job growth is expected, at 27 percent between now and 2016, says the BLS.
Sales Manager
A lot of jobs can be performed overseas, but when it comes to selling merchandise, American companies still need teams of salespeople selling their products in-person, as well as managers to oversee operations. Sales manager positions are highly coveted, but are expected to stay put and even expand over the next several years.
Career Training: A bachelor's or master's degree in business administration with an emphasis on marketing is the surest route to success. Many sales managers work their way up the ladder, starting as sales clerks or assistant managers.
Average Annual Salary: $106,790.
Job Outlook: 12 percent growth is expected between now and 2016, according to the BLS.
Computer and Information Systems Manager
While it's true that some computer-related jobs may be threatened by outsourcing, more complex jobs like this one can't be as routinely trained and shipped overseas. Computer and information systems managers will remain necessary because technology in the workplace is only expected to rise in coming years, and managers will always be needed to oversee it.
Career Training: A bachelor's degree is often required, and some employers even prefer a master's. An MBA with technology is especially desirable. Training in information technology or computer information systems management will help put you on the right track.
Average Annual Salary: $113,880.
Job Outlook: This profession is expected to grow by 16 percent between now and 2016, or "faster than average".
Automotive Service Technician or Mechanic
This job requires more technical knowledge than it used to in the days of simpler cars and automotive technology. For this reason, the term "mechanic" is quickly being replaced by the term "automotive technician."
Career Training: Auto technicians must keep abreast of the latest automotive technology, making a formal training program extremely advantageous to those looking to enter the field. An associate's degree or certificate in automotive technology can be a great way to get started.
Average Annual Salary: $36,480.
Job Outlook: As more Americans look to repair the cars they already own instead of buying new ones, auto technicians and mechanics are expected to increase by 14 percent, higher than the average 10 percent for most professions.
If you're worried about the future of your career, consider transitioning to a field where the jobs are more likely to stay put. The right training and education can help you transition to a field where jobs are growing instead of shrinking.
::)
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=264882.0
I looked into it in a number of ways as friends of mine were "sold" on it. Its a pyramid scheme of the worst sense and no one other than family and friends who feel bad for you will ever really buy enough products for you to make moey on.
Most of the products are repackaged crap that are overpriced.
I walked out of two meeting my friends tried to get me involved in. It was only months later after they wasted thousands of dollars did they admit I was right.
I think one was called MarketAmerica or some nonsense like that.
Pure cultism and brainwashing.
The diagrams in your thread by definition prove that MLM is nothing more than a pyramid scheme of the worst sense.
The only way MLM works is through overpriced crap products sufficient to pass enough $$$ up the line to the others.
The only ones who get screwed are the poor fools who buy your "products" because they feel bad for you.
Am I to take it then that you merely glanced over the pretty pictures, but didn't actually read the thread? ;D
One day, ...if you remain open minded enough, you may discover the truth, and realize your current assessment may not be as accurate as you now believe it to be.... or maybe not. You may be like so many other people who NEVER discover the truth about leverage, or see an accurate picture of network mktg. (http://www.jaguarenterprises.net/images/em/shrug.gif) Either way, that's ok. I'll still continue to enjoy it's rewards.
If the only reason people are buying a product from you is because they feel bad for you, ...then you need to get out of that business ASAP. Sympathy only goes so far. You need a product that provides real VALUE to the end consumer. A product they will want with or without you. I have people who are to this very day purchasing and using consumable products I first introduced to them in 1998. A few as early as 1993! ELEVEN YRS LATER, and my customers are still purchasing that product. The business continues to grow, despite my not actively building it in over 10 years. How do you think such a thing occurs? It's not because they feel sorry me, ...it's because they want that product. And they have the ability to set up an automatic shipment of it to arrive at their front door the same day each month, so they never have to worry about running out. My time is freed up so I'm not required to schlep the products across town/city/province/state/country/planet to them, ...I just deposit my residual commission cheques. 8)
They all operate on the same pyramid scheme model.
Basically, one guy creates the plan based upon a nonsense product he has other people sell for him.
Each person then creates a "team" to sell these products to other people. Those people are encouraged to create teams below them so that profits keep flowing upstream.
Please Jag, you are talking to the wrong guy. I know excactly how all these scams work.
None of these "products" are found in stores. Why do you think that is????
Because most are garbage and extremely overpriced to compensate for the layers of profit that have to flow to the founder at the top of the scheme.
however, most of these scams fail because the participants get tired of buying the products and having no one to sell them to.
You fail to mention, and you know this, that you have a minimum amount of product you have to purchase yourself. Usually its like $300 a month or something like that.
If you took the amount of hours you actually put into this nonsense versus the amount of net profit you got back, its probably no more than $10 an hour at best.(http://www.jaguarenterprises.net/images/em/shocked.gif)
Network marketing is a scam and a ponzi scheme.
I personally know four different people who tried to sell me the exact same Network Marketing BS Jag tries to sell here, same videos, same articles, same products, same BS. I respectfully declined and told them nicely that I am happy with my job, my salary and my life style.
Not only did they not make all the money that they were swearing to me I that would make if I got involved, but they actually lost money and now they tell me that it was a mistake and that they never should have gotten involved in any type of Network Marketing. They said that the only ones who get rich off of this industry are the dishonest scammers at the top.
LOL, I can't believe this conversation is still going on.
Whose out of popcorn yet?
You must be tired; 'whose' is a possessive.
So I got laid off about 3 weeks ago. I worked as an internal wholesaler for variable annuities primarily. It seems like financial sales are no longer going be as lucrative or as widespread as they once were. I am fortunate enough that I can take a little time to make my next move, I might even go back to school.IT..wide area networking...
Now I am certainly not asking people online to decide my life path. Just looking to get a conversation going about what you think maybe are the best jobs/careers for the future. I have done financial services for the last 5 years, so it is a bit concerning with the way everything is. Maybe I should just stay home and grow a garden and get animals, who knows. Still need an income though. Thoughts?
Anything related in health care.
I am seeing a lot of people take a quick entry prep job in the health care field until their former occupation regains an economic growth to create more jobs. Lots of people taking quick courses in things like respiration therapists just to get employed quickly.
If you have a bit more time you can look into things that require a bit more time to get certified like surgical tech. If you have 2 years to put forth, then radiology tech (xray), ultrasound, etc.. is easy to obtain with a two year program that leads to certification.
Umm there is no such thing as quick prep or quick entry anything in healthcare. That is unless you want to be a nurses aide or caregiver and they don't make hardly anything. It takes just as much education as any other field to be in healthcare. Nursing takes 4 years and is very time consuming. Respiratory therapy, speech therapy, PT/OT all require lots of years of education. Surgical tech is also not "quick" entry. And a guy like the OPer who probably has no anatomy, physiology, micro, or psych in his background is not going to get through school "quickly". Compound that with the fact that healthcare jobs are just as hard to find as anything else right now. They were hot a year ago but hardly anyone is hiring right now. My hospital isn't hiring any new nurses. And nursing jobs are more plentiful than any respiratory therapist or x-ray tech jobs.
When I said quick prep and quick entry I am referring to the time it takes to enter, complete and get the required certification or registration necessary for lower rung jobs like surgical tech or insturment tech as opposed to something that takes longer as nursing.
The point of my post, as stated, was in regards to the OP being unemployed at the moment was not to find a new career field but to find something where there are at least SOME jobs so he can earn SOME money while waiting for his last profession to regain it's foothold.
When I said quick prep and quick entry I am referring to the time it takes to enter, complete and get the required certification or registration necessary for lower rung jobs like surgical tech or insturment tech as opposed to something that takes longer as nursing.
The point of my post, as stated, was in regards to the OP being unemployed at the moment was not to find a new career field but to find something where there are at least SOME jobs so he can earn SOME money while waiting for his last profession to regain it's foothold.
Its going on because you are promoting a pyramid scheme.
No, ...I'm building a legitimate network marketing business.
There's a vast world of difference between the two.
The Mirage of Multilevel Marketing
Stephen Barrett, M.D.
Don't be surprised if a friend or acquaintance tries to sell you vitamins, herbs, homeopathic remedies, weight-loss powders, or other health-related products. Millions of Americans have signed up as distributors for multilevel companies that market such products from person to person. Often they have tried the products, concluded that they work, and become suppliers to support their habit.
Multilevel marketing (also called network marketing) is a form of direct sales in which independent distributors sell products, usually in their customers' home or by telephone. In theory, distributors can make money not only from their own sales but also from those of the people they recruit.
Becoming an MLM distributor is simple and requires no real knowledge of health or nutrition. Many people do so initially in order to buy their own products at a discount. For a small sum of money—usually between $35 and $100—these companies sell a distributor kit that includes product literature, sales aids (such as a videotape or audiotape), price lists, order forms, and a detailed instructional manual. Most MLM companies publish a magazine or newsletter containing company news, philosophical essays, product information, success stories, and photographs of top salespeople. The application form is usually a single page that asks only for identifying information. Millions of Americans have signed up, including many physicians attracted by the idea that selling MLM products can offset losses attributable to managed care.
Distributors can buy products "wholesale," sell them "retail," and recruit other distributors who can do the same. When enough distributors have been enrolled, the recruiter is eligible to collect a percentage of their sales. Companies suggest that this process provides a great money-making opportunity.
However, it is unlikely that people who don't join during the first few months of operation or become one of the early distributors in their community can build enough of a sales pyramid to do well.
In July 1999, the National Association of Attorneys General announced that complaints about multilevel marketing and pyramid schemes were tenth on their list of consumer complaints.
A recent analysis of Quixtar's reported income figures indicates how poorly most MLM distributors do. In a declaration filed in a suit by two former Quixtar distributors, he concluded:
A statistical sample of distributors revealed that 99.4% of the IBOs [independent business owners] earned on average just $13.41 per week—before product purchases, all business expenses, and taxes. This average income is far less than the costs of the business, resulting in 99% of victims of Quixtar making no net profit. Fewer than 1 person in 10,000 are at the "Diamond and above" levels, the upper ranks of the Quixtar chain that every new recruit is urged to aspire to. . . .
The massive loss rates among Quixtar victims that are revealed in Quixtar's own data are the inevitable mathematical result of the endless chain business model. In this model, the success of the IBO is based on continuous recruiting of additional distributors (IBOs), who are induced to make monthly purchases for their own consumption, rather than on making retail sales in the open marketplace. In the recruitment model, only those participants at the top levels of the pyramid can earn true profits, since the source of a participant's real income is the expenditures of individuals below them on the pyramid, and only a small percentage can be in those top positions. The untenable model result in approximately 70% of IBOs quitting Quixtar within the first year. The mission of this deceptive business model is to continuously enroll losing investors (IBOs) and replace them as they suffer losses and quit the program.
Many distributors who stock up on products to meet sales goals or increase their hoped-for commissions get stuck with unsold products that cost thousands of dollars. Some companies permit direct ordering of their products, which avoids this problem, but the risk of failure is still high.
Dubious Claims
More than a hundred multilevel companies are marketing health-related products. Most claim that their products are effective for preventing or treating disease.
A few companies merely suggest that people will feel better, look better, or have more energy if they supplement their diet with extra nutrients.
When clear-cut therapeutic claims are made in product literature, the company is an easy target for government enforcement action.
Some companies run this risk, hoping that the government won't take action until their customer base is well established. Other companies make no claims in their literature but rely on testimonials, encouraging people to try their products and credit them for any improvement that occurs.
Every company I have looked at has done at least one of the following.
Made misleading statements that could frighten people into taking dietary supplements they do not need.
Made misleading statements of product superiority that could induce people to buy products that retail stores sell more cheaply.
Made unsubstantiated claims that their products would prevent or remedy health problems
Uses research findings to promote products without noting that the findings are not sufficient to substantiate using the products.
Uses deception by omission by making statements about the biochemical properties of various substances without placing them in proper perspective. An example would be stating that a certain nutrient is important because it does this or that in the body but omitting that people who eat sensibly have no valid reason to take a supplement.
Exaggerated the probability of making significant income.
Most multilevel companies tell distributors not to make claims for the products except for those found in company literature. (That way the company can deny responsibility for what distributors do.) However, many companies hold sales meetings at which people are encouraged to tell their story to the others in attendance.
Some companies sponsor telephone conference calls during which leading distributors describe their financial success, give sales tips, and describe their personal experiences with the products. Testimonials also may be published in company magazines, audiotapes or videotapes.
Testimonial claims can trigger enforcement action, but since it is time-consuming to collect evidence of their use, government agencies seldom bother to do so.
Government enforcement action against multilevel companies has not been vigorous. These companies are usually left alone unless their promotions become so conspicuous and their sales volume so great that an agency feels compelled to intervene. Even then, few interventions have substantial impact once a company is well established.
Motivation: Powerful but Misguided
The "success" of network marketing lies in the enthusiasm of its participants. Most people who think they have been helped by an unorthodox method enjoy sharing their success stories with their friends. People who give such testimonials are usually motivated by a sincere wish to help their fellow humans. Since people tend to believe what others tell them about personal experiences, testimonials can be powerful persuaders.
Perhaps the trickiest misconception about quackery is that personal experience is the best way to tell whether something works. When someone feels better after having used a product or procedure, it is natural to give credit to whatever was done. However, this is unwise.
Most ailments are self-limiting, and even incurable conditions can have sufficient day-to-day variation to enable bogus methods to gain large followings. In addition, taking action often produces temporary relief of symptoms (a placebo effect). For these reasons, scientific experimentation is almost always necessary to establish whether health methods are really effective. Instead of testing their products, multilevel companies urge customers to try them and credit them if they feel better.
Some products are popular because they contain caffeine, ephedrine (a stimulant), valerian (a tranquilizer), or other substances that produce mood-altering effects.
Another factor in gaining devotees is the emotional impact of group activities. Imagine, for example, that you have been feeling lonely, bored, depressed or tired. One day a friend tells you that "improving your nutrition" can help you feel better. After selling you some products, the friend inquires regularly to find out how you are doing. You seem to feel somewhat better. From time to time you are invited to interesting lectures where you meet people like yourself. Then you are asked to become a distributor. This keep you busy, raises your income, and provides an easy way to approach old friends and make new ones—all in an atmosphere of enthusiasm. Some of your customers express gratitude, giving you a feeling of accomplishment. People who increase their income, their social horizons, or their self-esteem can get a psychological boost that not only can improve their mood but also may alleviate emotionally-based symptoms.
Multilevel companies refer to this process as "sharing" and suggest that everyone involved is a "winner." That simply isn't true. The entire process is built on a foundation of deception. The main winners are the company's owners and the small percentage of distributors who become sales leaders. The losers are millions of Americans who waste money and absorb the misinformation.
Do you think multilevel participants are qualified to judge whether prospective customers need supplements—or medical care?
Even though curative claims are forbidden by the written policies of each company, the sales process encourages customers to experiment with self-treatment. It may also promote distrust of legitimate health professionals and their treatment methods.
Some people would argue that the apparent benefits of "believing" in the products outweigh the risks involved. Do you think that people need false beliefs in order to feel healthy or succeed in life? Would you like to believe that something can help you when in fact it is worthless? Should our society support an industry that is trying to mislead us? Can't Americans do something better with the billion or more dollars being wasted each year on multilevel "health" products?
Physician Involvement
Many any physicians are selling health-related multilevel products to patients in their offices. The companies most involved have included Amway (now doing business as Quixtar), Body Wise, Nu Skin (Interior Design), Rexall, and Juice Plus+. Doctors are typically recruited with promises that the extra income will replace income lost to managed care. In December 1997, the American Medical Association Council on Ethical and Judicial Affairs (CEJA) advised against against profiting from the sale of "non-health-related products" to their patients. Although CEJA's policy statement does not mention products sold through multilevel marketing, CEJA's chairman said the statement was triggered by the growing number of physicians who had added an Amway distributorship to their practice.
Recommendations
Consumers would be wise to avoid health-related multilevel products altogether. Those that have nutritional value (such as vitamins and low-cholesterol foods) are invariably overpriced and may be unnecessary as well. Those promoted as remedies are either unproven, bogus, or intended for conditions that are unsuitable for self-medication.
Government agencies should police the multilevel marketplace aggressively, using undercover investigators and filing criminal charges when wrongdoing is detected. People who feel they have been defrauded by MLM companies should file complaints with their state attorney general and with local FDA and FTC offices. A letter detailing the events may be sufficient to trigger an investigation; and the more complaints received, the more likely that corrective action will be taken.
Jag - this confirms everything I have said.
...continued from above due to character count restrions...
Please, I urge you to re-read the above highlight, ...and tell me why this is such a bad thing. ::)
Flat out untruth.
First of all, that is NOT what multilevel participants do. Physicians do that, ...not MLM'ers.
Even the JAMA, the Journal of American Medical Association has flat out stated that all Americans should be taking dietary supplements
People who seek out nutrional ways of promoting and maintaing a state of health and wellness are already distrustful of pharmacopia. As are those who've suffered the toxic effects of pharmacopia. It's called taking a proactive approach to creating and maintain a state of heath & wellness. In my opinion, that is a far more intelligent approach than neglecting one's health, then going bankrupt in an attempt to regain what was lost due to neglect.
IMO... a very specious argument. It assumes the position these products are worthless. In a legitimate network mktg company, no makes any money until and unless a product is sold. There is no advertising. People would NOT continue to purchase products that are worthless. A product must have value, or that company is out of business. NO EXCEPTIONS. Companies can go out of business for other reasons despite a fabulous product, ...however, without one, a company's demise is inevitable.
Of course physicians have joined the ranks of network marketing. Physicians are often quite knowledgeable, well informed, and have the ability to verify the scientific testing so prevalent within the industry. They are also frequently disheartened with their lot in life... being required to treat disease, as opposed to being actively engaged in helping their patients achieve optimal states of heath & wellness.
I couldn't disagree more strongly. For him to take the position that a product that has nutritional value is automatically overpriced & unecessary reveals the amount of credibility or lack thereof within his article. One shouldn't rely on mere price to determine value. Mass market vitamins are often produced using inferior ingredients in order to keep the price minimal. Yes, you may be able to get a cheaper product, but you may not be getting the same quality. There's a huge difference between the price of cyanocobalamin, methylcobalamin, or hydroxocobalamin. Take a look at any B vitamin complex sold in the drug store, health food store, or grocery store. I'll bet you 99.9% of the time you'll find it contains cyanocobalamin. Had the manufacturer used either methylcobalamin, ...a far superior B-12 imo, the price on the bottle certainly would be much higher, and much higher still were it hydroxocobalamin.
When you examine price before value, you're looking in the wrong sequence.
I could manufacture two rings, one made of gold color plated metal, another made of 18K gold.
Obviously the 2nd ring costs more, but is ring 1 a better value? I don't think so.
Especially not when the gold colored ring will lose it's color, cause a nasty rash, turn your finger green, potentially allow lead absorbtion through your pores. While the 18K ring will not only keep it's value, ...it may even appreciate with the inevitable rise in the price of gold.
This part I do agree with.
Just because it confirms what you said, ...doesn't make it accurate or correct. And does not address the broad over generalizations inherent in both your arguments.
You could say the moon was made of green cheese and could probably find someone to validate your statement.
Just because he's a Doctor, ...don't give him more credit than he is due. I think the 'integrity' of his article (for want of a sufficiently sarcastic euphemism) speaks volumes to a knowledgeable individual amount the amount of credit he is due. ;) Scream the world is made from green eggs and ham, and I'll betcha Dr. Seuss would agree. See, you can find a Doctor to approve or disapprove of pretty much any statement made. ;)
Barrett maintains lists of sources, individuals, and groups it considers questionable and non-recommendable. His lists includes two-time Nobel Prize winner Linus Pauling (for his claims about mega-doses of Vitamin C), and the National Institutes of Health (NIH)
Barrett is flat out critical of alternative. He depends heavily on negative research and case studies in which alternative therapies do not work, and says most positive case studies are unreliable. Well which is it. Either scientific research is reliable or it isn't, but Barrett appears to want it both ways. It's reliable when scientific testing and research shows something to be invalid, ...but when that same scientific testing and research determines something to be valid, it's unreliable. Barrett says, he does not criticize conventional medicine because "that's way outside my scope." What kind of a doctor is unqualified or unable to be critical of conventional medicine? A psychiatrist perhaps? He says alternative therapies simply should be disregarded without further research. A wise man investigates what a fool takes for granted. Could that really be the reason he is not critical of conventional medicine? His organization is a non-profit that relies on donations. Have you researched exactly where he gets his donations from? Does his donor list include Big Pharma and those with a vested interest in removing all competition in the marketplace?
There have been a interesting lawsuits in the past involving the chiropractic industry and other wellness practices of which Barrett has been extremely critical. unable to pull details off the top of my head, and am unwilling to risk making a misstatement from memory. to do that would be unfair both to Barrett as well as those reading this, a consideration, both you & Barrett have failed to show to readers imo. However, when I find time, if the moment catches me, i might look them up. If memory serves me correctly, they do not portray Barrett and his co-horts in a very positive light.
333386, before you go quoting people and introducing them as validation for your theories,
...it would behoove you to know exactly who you're relying on, what his biases are, as well as who his donors are. 8)
Hope That Clarifies
Did I just hear some-one reffer to 'MLM' - pyramid schemes, as a legitimate business.
OH-MY !!
OH-MY indeed :o :o ::)
That is why they have been out-lawed in most European countries - (Tony the 'frosties Tiger' voice) THEIR GRRREEEEAT - for every-one involved.
The classic one 'Herba-life' has been kicked out of India (other Asian countries) & most of Europe.
Do you all still have 'HL' over there in the land of the free ??
One thing Jag is definitely great at: Spamming the boards...classic illegitimate business tactic.
One thing Jag is definitely great at: Spamming the boards...classic illegitimate business practice.
{giggle} You chose your username well Loco ;)
I prefer to categorize my contribution to this thread as addressing the inaccurate and misleading information put forth by others. It is an attempt to clarify things for the reader, from the position of one with a more accurate perspective on things. I hope it has been helpful for those who may be considering the industry.
Well what's your definition of quick?
You do realise you are a megalomaniac, right?
{giggle} You chose your username well Loco ;)
I prefer to categorize my contribution to this thread as addressing the inaccurate and misleading information put forth by others. It is an attempt to clarify things for the reader, from the position of one with a more accurate perspective on things. I hope it has been helpful for those who may be considering the industry.
I did mention that whilst not the best, with the right qualifications you will always find decent (not great) work in the TEFL industry.
I agree with you about Judy.
{giggle} Megalomania is a luxury I cannot afford.
I'm about to awarded a Nobel prize in medicine, ...and I have an acceptance speech to write. ;)
IT..wide area networking...
regardless of what else happens..the internet is only gonna get bigger...its only a matter of time before your toaster oven and fridge have an IP address so you can log in remotely and start cooking your meal at homebefore u leave work
http://tcpmag.com/salarysurveys/article.asp?EditorialsID=257
here in the DC area avg salary with a clerance is over 100k
you can take a ccie anywhere on the planet and companies will basically kiss your ass to sign you on board
{giggle} Megalomania is a luxury I cannot afford.
I'm about to awarded a Nobel prize in medicine, ...and I have an acceptance speech to write. ;)
Well, you did claim to have a higher IQ than Einstein. What will you be awarded it for? Fleecing others out of their hard earned dollars with your sham product? ???
I know four people who got ripped off by your industry, a while after they had tried to get me involved using your exact same tactics. I'd say they have a very accurate perspective on things.
Four People? That's it? ??? I know a heckuva lot more people who have been ripped off by this industry than you.
At the same time, I know a heckuva lot of people whose lives have been vastly blessed & enriched by this industry.
{giggle} Megalomania is a luxury I cannot afford.
I'm about to awarded a Nobel prize in medicine, ...and I have an acceptance speech to write. ;)
Well, you did claim to have a higher IQ than Einstein. What will you be awarded it for?
Sheesh, like there already aren't enough loudmouth illiterate punks in the world! ::)
I know...none.
I stopped reading your post at "Nobel Prize" as I knew you were lying through your teeth again and that the rest of your post would not be worth reading.
Einstein = 160 IQ = One of the greatest physicists ever
Jaguar Enterprises = 160+ IQ = One of the greatest fleecers ever (also works with convicted criminals)
I suspected that's part of where some of your hostility towards this industry comes from.
Let me assure you, there are many. My friend Bill recently co-wrote a book along with Jack Canfield & Mark Victor Hansen entitled "Chicken Soup For The Network Marketer's Soul" wherein he profiles many of them.
(http://www.jaguarenterprises.net/images/CSCover.jpg)
It's a great book. It's not a recruiting book, or a preaching book etc., it's just a series of short stories involving mlm'ers, both past & present. Real people, sharing real stories about their lives, their struggles, their adventures, ups, downs, ...and some of the life lessons they've learned on their journey through MLM, ...and how those lessons have gone on to impact their lives both in and out of MLM, ...and you don't have to be a network marketer to appreciate it. When Bill & MaryAnn first published it, we thought it would be a great inspirational book for our downlines, ...but when we read it, we realized this was a heart warming book that everyone could identify with. I can't even begin to tell you how many people both in and out of MLM got a copy of this as a stocking stuffer.
Anyone who wants to get a better understanding of network marketers or network marketing, or if you just want to enjoy a good heartwarming read, I highly recommend it. Chicken Soup for the Soul is a great name, because it really is.
On getbig, if you tell a lie often enough, it becomes the truth...
That's happens outside of getbig too!
Especially on getbig.
MLM is nothing but a scam to get people (usually family members and friends) to buy overpriced products to fund a pyramid scheme of profits to the founder of the scam itself.
The rest is just nonsense.
I know. I don't think you were here but the dead giveaway was when Judy claimed to have a 160+ IQ. Then, you just knew...
Anyone with a 160 IQ is smart enough to know MLM is nothing but a scam.
They probably staged some phoney IQ test in her monthly MLM meeting she has to attend and convinced her she is a genius. This was probably used as validation for her choosing MLM and the overpriced products they are pushing on family and friends.
160+ is beyond what the greatest minds of the 20th century had, yet we are to believe this lady is smarter than Einstein, Watson and Cricks, Oppenheimer, etc...and sells junk over the internet and posts on getbig? VERY unlikely. The think about Judy is that she REALLY believes it and really IS megalomaniacal.
Thanks, but I do not know the author or any of these "real people" in the book.
Jack Canfield: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Canfield
Mark Victor Hansen: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Hansen
I'll send you a link to Bill's bio in PM
As for the people profiled in the book, I don't know all of them, but I do know a few of them personally, and can verify their stories are accurate. In the case of one particular individual profiled, they wrote about an incident that took place, and I was actually there at the time... I think I might even have pictures of it. I can send you that through pm as well. :)
Brief Bio
Internationally known speakers Mark Victor Hansen and Jack Canfield knew the power of a good story long before Chicken Soup for the Soul was published. Each had built their speaking careers by telling inspirational, motivational and uplifting stories that their audiences could use to discover, experience and retain key concepts and approaches. After years of continuous audience requests that they put their stories into book form, Hansen & Canfield finally agreed. Rather than focusing only on their stories, they decided to reach out to others and seek contributions of powerful tales of ordinary people doing extraordinary things. After rounding up the 101 most inspirational submissions, they were left with an untitled book they both knew had the potential to make quite an impact.
As they searched for a winning title, Jack & Mark each agreed to meditate on the subject for one hour a day. Jack visualized the image of his grandmother’s Chicken Soup for the Soul and remembered how she told him it would cure anything. The book would have the same healing powers as that soup, but not for the body—for the soul. Thus, the now famous title was born…Chicken Soup for the Soul.
Chicken Soup for the Soul was released on June 28, 1993, and became a holiday favorite by the end of December. What drove initial interest was not media attention or celebrity endorsement, but rather word-of-mouth promotion from ordinary people around the country who bought the book and loved it. Many would return to the bookstore to buy five or ten copies for friends and family. Thanks to that groundswell of popularity, by September of 1994, Chicken Soup for the Soul was on every major bestseller list in the U.S. and Canada. Although the media may not have led the charge, they soon caught on. Chicken Soup for the Soul received coverage from just about every major media outlet in the country, including “The Oprah Winfrey Show,” “The Today Show,” “Larry King Live” and thousands of others. The series quickly became a pop culture phenomenon, receiving mentions on television programs like “Friends,” “The Sopranos,” “Everybody Loves Raymond,” plus several movies.
It did not take long for the series to start racking up industry awards and recognition. In 1995, Chicken Soup for the Soul won the prestigious ABBY Award (American Booksellers’ Book of the Year), followed in 1996 by the American Family Institute’s “Non-Fiction Literary Award.” In 1998, Chicken Soup for the Soul for the Kid’s Soul was voted “Favorite Book of the Year” for Nickelodeon’s Kid’s Choice Awards. That same year Chicken Soup for the Soul set a record for having seven books on the New York Times bestseller list at one time.
Fifteen years after it began, Chicken Soup for the Soul means more to people than just books. According to Harris Polls, 88.7 percent of the public not only recognizes the Chicken Soup for the Soul brand, but knows what it is. With more than 112 million books sold to date, almost 200 titles in print and translations into more than 40 languages, Chicken Soup for the Soul is one of the world’s best-known phrases.
http://books.google.com/books?as_auth=Mark+Victor+Hansen&source=an&ei=978WSorGKJXIM9v7rK8I&sa=X&oi=book_group&ct=title&cad=author-navigational&resnum=4
They are smarter than you Jag. They got you to buy the book and will make more $$$ from you knowing you seek validation of MLM.
160+ is beyond what the greatest minds of the 20th century had, yet we are to believe this lady is smarter than Einstein, Watson and Cricks, Oppenheimer, etc...and sells junk over the internet and posts on getbig? VERY unlikely. The think about Judy is that she REALLY believes it and really IS megalomaniacal.
She claimed it was over 170 and after getting called out on it by Tapper, she then claimed she was "mistaken" and said it was 160. Someone then pointed out that Einstein had an estimated IQ of 160 and has since avoided the topic every time it comes up. She sure is quick to tell you how smart she is in every thread, though. ::)
Einstein = 160 IQ = Nobel Prize winner
Jaguar = 160 IQ = Professional con artist
Jack Canfield: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Canfield
Mark Victor Hansen: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Hansen
I'll send you a link to Bill's bio in PM
No, I still don't know them, even if I read about them on the Internet. And this is exactly how the people I do know got ripped off by this industry, spending money on books like this.
They were asked to pay for their own training and marketing materials, to buy a significant amount of inventory, and to pay to go listen to motivational speakers make exaggerated income and success claims about this industry.
They are smarter than you Jag. They got you to buy the book and will make more $$$ from you knowing you seek validation of MLM.
She claimed it was over 170 and after getting called out on it by Tapper, she then claimed she was "mistaken" and said it was 160. Someone then pointed out that Einstein had an estimated IQ of 160 and has since avoided the topic every time it comes up. She sure is quick to tell you how smart she is in every thread, though. ::)
No, I still don't know them, even if I read about them on the Internet. And this is exactly how the people I do know got ripped off by this industry, spending money on books like this.
They were asked to pay for their own training and marketing materials, to buy a significant amount of inventory, and to pay to go listen to motivational speakers make exaggerated income and success claims about this industry.
You're lying through your teeth again Judy.
I'm not the liar here.
I think I know what company your friend was in. :'(
I can see where it could have left such a bitter taste in your mouth.
In all fairness to them though, despite the perverse internal practices of that company, and I do think some of the things that have gone on with them is perverse, ...they had no blue print to follow. There was no one who had blazed a trail for them. The had to cut the path through the wilderness themselves. They made mistakes along the way, and by the time those errors were apparent, it was too late to change it. If 2 people start walking in the same general direction, ...except one person is walking at a slightly different angle, ...you may not notice it at first, ...but overtime, and over a large enough distance, they're going to end up in 2 completely different places. Fortunately, we have the benefit of examining that company, seeing what they did right, ...and seeing where they made mistakes in judgement.
Network marketing is a scam and a ponzi scheme.
Optometrist
No, four different people, five different companies, same Multi Level Marketing industry.
No, I still don't know them, even if I read about them on the Internet. And this is exactly how the people I do know got ripped off by this industry, spending money on books like this.
They were asked to pay for their own training and marketing materials, to buy a significant amount of inventory, and to pay to go listen to motivational speakers make exaggerated income and success claims about this industry.
What were the companies?
If you do not know them simply by reading about them on the internet, ...should it not stand to reason that you also do not know the network marketing industry not having participated in it yourself?
I can understand where the purchase of mktg materials and training expenses can be burdensome, ...especially when many participants have previously and historically often only entered the arena in a financially precarious position to begin with, however, there is a cost for training which must be borne. In recent years, technological advances have reduced those costs significantly. Email, Video conferencing via the internet, pdf files, powerpoints etc., have streamlined and reduced costs to next to nothing, however, there are still costs involved. A good education put to use is more valueable, and less costly than stumbling around in the dark. If you think the price of an education is expensive, you don't want to know how costly the price of ignorance is.
As for requiring people to pay for their own training and marketing materials, and paying to listen to speakers,
...how does this NOT differ from the model we see used every day in post secondary education. Are university students not required to pay for their own books, tuition fees, housing costs etc.
They spent years in school, accumulating tremendous amounts of debt, and cannot even begin to start earning an income in the field until and unless after graduate, ...provided of course they are fortunate enough to be hired. Some don't even finish their schooling. They drop out, ...with an accumulated debtload; a wasted investment they will not recoup, ...but do they blame the university, or the concept of post secondary education? No they often have a more realistic assessment of the situation; they realize they didn't have the discipline required, and/or were not adequately prepared financially or mentally to pursue a level of higher education.
Then too, there are those who pursue a career path in a dwindling sector. If someone spent thousands in tuition, books, etc, and years studying how to become an analog TV repairman, or how to run a horsedrawn livery fleet, ...and upon graduation, couldn't develop a customer base that preferred to be transported by horse drawn carriages, or who discovered technological advances had moved the market to flat screen digital LCD or HDTV, would it be a case of his being ripped off by the educational facility, ...or would you say he made a poor decision when charting his career path? That perhaps he should have studied how to run a limo or car service instead?
If you spent a fortune studying to be a surgeon, then upon graduation, decided you couldn't stomache the sight of blood, and decided to quit, did that make Harvard a rip off, and were they wrong to make you pay tuition etc?
Maybe one should have studied in Libya where post secondary education is completely free?
This way, if you decided to simply up and quit, you wouldn't have wasted money on university tuition.
Good for you, ...sucks for the university though.
Any company (educational facility / employer / army etc.,) bearing the costs of training and educating others is going to ensure it is a good investment. If the individual has the ability to quit after so much has been invested in them by others, that would pretty much ensure the demise of the entity... be it a company, business, employer, etc.,) unless it is operating on a pay as you go system. Without one, you'd be looking at a world of indentured servants. That's why the military owns your butt when you walk into basic training, ...and you can't leave until they tell you that you can.
Good network marketing companies often have mechanisms in place to determine which distributors are worthy of investing in, out of the thousands who may join at any given moment. Those mechanisms are performance incentives. Do this, ...and you will get this. Accomplish this, ...and you will get this. Good companies reward distributors for their commitment, consistency, and performance. For instance, my own company awards points which are redeemable for free merchandise, free marketing materials, free tools, free event tickets etc.,
Then too, there are those who start traditional brick n' mortar businesses. They are required to invest thousands upon thousands in inventory, pay for leases, pay for their own training, marketing materials, advertising, leases, employees, licenses, and horrendously burdensome compliance costs. They are loaded down with debt, and will struggle through whatever hardships they encounter because up and quitting means the loss of EVERYTHING ...often hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars. Walking away from an investment of a few hundred dollars in rough times, is alot easier than walking away from a 6 or 7 figure investment in even rougher times. If their business fails, ...do they blame the country that afforded them the opportunity to take advantage of the free market system? Well some do... but not as many who dip their toes into the waters of MLM. If you're going to take a bath, and you dip your toe in the water, and find it a little too warm, or a little too cool for your comfort, ...adjust the faucet. Don't speak ill of personal hygiene, ...adjust the faucet so the water is a more comfortable temperature for you.
There is a thing called personal responsibility, which we all must take for our decisions in life.
Too frequently, people look to the compensation plans of network marketing companies, as the be all and end all, and forget all the other aspects & factors that must go into a successful MLM business venture, ...or any successful business venture. So they disregard everything else, look to the comp plan to do it all, ...and when their business doesn't thrive, they wonder what went wrong. Then they blame it on MLM. The fault was not MLM, it was the poor decision demonstrated by not looking at the other factors associated with the business, like the company, it's capitalization, the mgmt team, product(s), the market, the timing, the trends, the future potential, duplicatability etc., etc.,
You're lying through your teeth again Judy.
What were the companies?
If you do not know them simply by reading about them on the internet, ...should it not stand to reason that you also do not know the network marketing industry not having participated in it yourself?
I can understand where the purchase of mktg materials and training expenses can be burdensome, ...especially when many participants have previously and historically often only entered the arena in a financially precarious position to begin with, however, there is a cost for training which must be borne. In recent years, technological advances have reduced those costs significantly. Email, Video conferencing via the internet, pdf files, powerpoints etc., have streamlined and reduced costs to next to nothing, however, there are still costs involved. A good education put to use is more valueable, and less costly than stumbling around in the dark. If you think the price of an education is expensive, you don't want to know how costly the price of ignorance is.
As for requiring people to pay for their own training and marketing materials, and paying to listen to speakers,
...how does this NOT differ from the model we see used every day in post secondary education. Are university students not required to pay for their own books, tuition fees, housing costs etc.
They spent years in school, accumulating tremendous amounts of debt, and cannot even begin to start earning an income in the field until and unless after graduate, ...provided of course they are fortunate enough to be hired. Some don't even finish their schooling. They drop out, ...with an accumulated debtload; a wasted investment they will not recoup, ...but do they blame the university, or the concept of post secondary education? No they often have a more realistic assessment of the situation; they realize they didn't have the discipline required, and/or were not adequately prepared financially or mentally to pursue a level of higher education.
Then too, there are those who pursue a career path in a dwindling sector. If someone spent thousands in tuition, books, etc, and years studying how to become an analog TV repairman, or how to run a horsedrawn livery fleet, ...and upon graduation, couldn't develop a customer base that preferred to be transported by horse drawn carriages, or who discovered technological advances had moved the market to flat screen digital LCD or HDTV, would it be a case of his being ripped off by the educational facility, ...or would you say he made a poor decision when charting his career path? That perhaps he should have studied how to run a limo or car service instead?
If you spent a fortune studying to be a surgeon, then upon graduation, decided you couldn't stomache the sight of blood, and decided to quit, did that make Harvard a rip off, and were they wrong to make you pay tuition etc?
Maybe one should have studied in Libya where post secondary education is completely free?
This way, if you decided to simply up and quit, you wouldn't have wasted money on university tuition.
Good for you, ...sucks for the university though.
Any company (educational facility / employer / army etc.,) bearing the costs of training and educating others is going to ensure it is a good investment. If the individual has the ability to quit after so much has been invested in them by others, that would pretty much ensure the demise of the entity... be it a company, business, employer, etc.,) unless it is operating on a pay as you go system. Without one, you'd be looking at a world of indentured servants. That's why the military owns your butt when you walk into basic training, ...and you can't leave until they tell you that you can.
Good network marketing companies often have mechanisms in place to determine which distributors are worthy of investing in, out of the thousands who may join at any given moment. Those mechanisms are performance incentives. Do this, ...and you will get this. Accomplish this, ...and you will get this. Good companies reward distributors for their commitment, consistency, and performance. For instance, my own company awards points which are redeemable for free merchandise, free marketing materials, free tools, free event tickets etc.,
Then too, there are those who start traditional brick n' mortar businesses. They are required to invest thousands upon thousands in inventory, pay for leases, pay for their own training, marketing materials, advertising, leases, employees, licenses, and horrendously burdensome compliance costs. They are loaded down with debt, and will struggle through whatever hardships they encounter because up and quitting means the loss of EVERYTHING ...often hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars. Walking away from an investment of a few hundred dollars in rough times, is alot easier than walking away from a 6 or 7 figure investment in even rougher times. If their business fails, ...do they blame the country that afforded them the opportunity to take advantage of the free market system? Well some do... but not as many who dip their toes into the waters of MLM. If you're going to take a bath, and you dip your toe in the water, and find it a little too warm, or a little too cool for your comfort, ...adjust the faucet. Don't speak ill of personal hygiene, ...adjust the faucet so the water is a more comfortable temperature for you.
There is a thing called personal responsibility, which we all must take for our decisions in life.
Too frequently, people look to the compensation plans of network marketing companies, as the be all and end all, and forget all the other aspects & factors that must go into a successful MLM business venture, ...or any successful business venture. So they disregard everything else, look to the comp plan to do it all, ...and when their business doesn't thrive, they wonder what went wrong. Then they blame it on MLM. The fault was not MLM, it was the poor decision demonstrated by not looking at the other factors associated with the business, like the company, it's capitalization, the mgmt team, product(s), the market, the timing, the trends, the future potential, duplicatability etc., etc.,
Network marketing is a scam and a ponzi scheme.
::)
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=264882.0
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=264882.msg3726017#msg3726017
I don't have time to read all this spam. It's all scam. The industry profits from reaping people off.
How about the first question from that post then?
What were the 5 companies?
I don't remember names.
One was trying to sell me house hold products that one can get much cheaper, and of better quality, at Walt-mart or Amazon.com.
The other one was similar, but claimed to take advantage of technology to better market and sell their products.
The other one was some fruit juice, or something like that, making exaggerated claims about it's nutritional value.
The other one was kitchen products, I think, maybe more than just kitchen stuff.
The other one was nutritional supplements, again making exaggerated claims about their nutritional value and effectiveness.
One of these four people fell for it twice...slow learner. He fell for the same BS..."oh, those were not legit companies, try this other ones..."
They are all the same. They were asked to buy worthless books, were asked to pay for their own training and marketing materials, to buy a significant amount of inventory, and to pay to go listen to motivational speakers make exaggerated income and success claims about this industry.
Few people bought their products. I bought nothing from them. I'm not that gullible.
They all lost more money than they made, and they now regret ever having gotten involved with Multi Level Marketing industry.
I remember hearing about some scam that involved a fake gas saving pill.
It's always the most shady and least known companies with the biggest technological breakthroughs lol ::)
Hitting the nail on the head as usual 8)
Jaguar=160+IQ :o
Jaguar=160+IQ :o
Hitting the nail on the head as usual 8)
I don't remember names.
One was trying to sell me house hold products that one can get much cheaper, and of better quality, at Walt-mart or Amazon.com.
The other one was similar, but claimed to take advantage of technology to better market and sell their products.
The other one was some fruit juice, or something like that, making exaggerated claims about it's nutritional value.
The other one was kitchen products, I think, maybe more than just kitchen stuff.
The other one was nutritional supplements, again making exaggerated claims about their nutritional value and effectiveness.
One of these four people fell for it twice...slow learner. He fell for the same BS..."oh, those were not legit companies, try this other ones..."
They are all the same. They were asked to buy worthless books, were asked to pay for their own training and marketing materials, to buy a significant amount of inventory, and to pay to go listen to motivational speakers make exaggerated income and success claims about this industry.
Few people bought their products. I bought nothing from them. I'm not that gullible.
They all lost more money than they made, and they now regret ever having gotten involved with Multi Level Marketing industry.
I remember hearing about some scam that involved a fake gas saving pill.
It's always the most shady and least known companies with the biggest technological breakthroughs lol ::)
You're not giving me much to go on, so there's really not much I can say.
Could you ask your friend the specific names, ...I'm sure he would remember them
Then clearly there was at least one foundational pillar missing; ...a valueable product people wanted
How long did the do the business before they quit?
I'm not refering to how long their name was attached to a distributor application, but rather how long they actually did the business before quitting? 30 days, 60 days, 90 days, 6 months?
Did you know that if you bought a McDonald's franchise, ...you wouldn't expect to break even until maybe your 5th year of operation
Ha ha ha...same BS they told that guy after he got ripped off the first time, and he fell for it a second time and got ripped off again.
Not giving you much to go on? Who says I want to give you anything? You really think I'm going to contact these people to ask them about this industry after I avoided them and the subject to begin with? You think they want to talk about it with me after they got a look from me that said "I told you so", after they all got ripped off?
What is this jag? Are you honestly trying to sell me this industry now? You have balls, I'll give you that.
Those people might be gullible, but they were honest people from what I know about them. And I still did not buy this BS from them. What makes you think I will buy this BS from you, somebody I don't know or trust?
I don't care about this industry, and I dislike it very much after seeing what it does to gullible people like the ones I mentioned.
Like I told them, I am happy with my career, my job, my salary and my lifestyle.
Thanks, but no thanks!
That's understandable, ...however, it's quite possible your friends engaged in a pyramid disguised as something else
No, I'm not trying to sell you the industry, simply looking to clarify some misunderstandings about the industry.
By naming the companies, it would allow me to illustrate the very specific things about them, that make them illegal scams to be avoided. In so doing, anybody reading this post will know exactly what to look for and what to avoid like the plague. What you perceive as balls is simply the armour of God like in Corinthians. I can stand and speak truth.
I'm not asking you to buy anything, I'm simply correcting innaccurate information, and allowing you to reveal your conclusions, as well as your deductive reasoning process. It's up to the reader to discern where the credibility lays.
We have yet to even determine if your friends were ripped off, or if they simply quit, and blamed MLM.
If they were indeed ripped off, we have also yet to determine if it was by a poorly conceived company within the network marketing industry that exploited your friends, or whether it was done by a pyramid, a ponzi or some other con game pretending to be a network marketing company that deceived your friends. There are such things as wolves who wear sheep's clothing. Something we saw in the evangelical pastor Mimms who owned BioPerformance. That's not the fault of the lambs, the culpability rests purely with the wolves.
Trust me, ...I'm not trying to recruit you into my business. :o
It's funny that you would say that though. You remind me of the atheist who claims to be happy with his own life,
...but goes out of his way to steer people away from religion or any spiritual pursuit of any sort. The one who insists he knows all about religion, because of some pastor who got caught with a hooker in a seedy motel somewhere, another who embezzled funds from the offerings, ...or he knew of some Christian Granny experiencing financial difficulties who sent her rent money to the televangelist who promised her a miracle, ...and wound up evicted instead. The guy who claims all religion or spiritual pursuit is a worthless waste of time, and that the bible has nothing of value to offer man in the way of wisdom or guidance. You remind me alot of that guy.
.... :o
Do you ever stop?
Can someone ban her?
No one specifically mentioned her or her shitty company and products and she shove them here again.
She was warned plenty of times, please ban this hustler bitch who rip people off with fake pills.
An uneducated black panther Consolisa look alike Muslim bitch revolutionized the petroleum industry yet not a word on it in any respectable science magazine/news site ::)
Hugo,OzmO...do your job people...she keep shoving her shit when ever someone just mention the word job/money/fuel.
If Ron/Hugo hasn't dont it yet, it's not gonna happen.
If Ron/Hugo hasn't dont it yet, it's not gonna happen.
(http://www.jaguarenterprises.net/images/em/trucker.gif)
Well, if they let her go wild like this than I see no reason why we can't tell the truth about the products she try to sell here, let me rephrase it, the motor placebo pills she sells.
(http://www.jaguarenterprises.net/images/em/trucker.gif)
A rose by any other name still smells as sweet. If my product is a placebo, ...it's the kind that saves people money.
When a trucker (an independant owner/operator) on a dedicated run can reduce his fuel costs from $4600 per week down to $3400, for the same run, that's an extra $1200 in his pocket at the end of the week. When a business can effectively reduce their operating expenses, ...they're increasing their profit margin. And the biggest expense they have is fuel. When they can be compliant with increasingly stringent EPA emission standards, without increasing their compliance costs in the form of new equipment or bolt on applications that only increase the weight of their rigs, (and by extension reducing the amount of freight they can haul) it's a good thing.
Do you honestly think that truckers would be fooled by a placebo? Do you honestly think a trucker who regularly pulls 80,000 lbs up the side of Mount Eisenhower, ...or who pulls Jericho, or the 3 sisters, is going to be duped by a placebo? A hockey mom perhaps, ...but a trucker who is required to burn fuel in order to make his living? ???
These guys keep track of every gallon, and every mile... right down to the hundredth of a mile. If you ask them what a tire costs, ...they'll tell you the tire costs them $x per mile. They are paid per mile, so they break down their costs per mile, and increases in their mileage, and extensions in the life of their equipment, automatically translates to more profits in their pockets. Do you actually think a placebo is going to give their engine more power to pull their load up those grades without having to downshift, ...or without their engine fans kicking in? Do you think a placebo is going to affect the temperature gauges that indicate their engines are running cooler? Do you think a placebo can alter the amount of fuel still left in their tanks after completing a comparable run, ...or the amount of money still left in their wallets after paying for fuel? If so, ...that's the kind of placebo truckers like. :D
These are serious times, and fuel is back on the rise. There were alot of truckers who literally went out of business because increased fuel prices wiped out their profit margins. And there are truckers who are in business today because of the mileage increases they were able to gain as a result of using my product. If you don't want me defending my product or clarifying the lies, malicious rumors & confusion, you've attempted to spread about them, ...don't mention my product, and stop trying to confuse readers.
So Judy,
By my understanding, the only way to increase fuel mileage is:
a) lighten the load being moved.
b) Recalibrate the engine computer, thus injecting less fuel into the system.
c) Increase efficiency of the powerplant (engine)
What can your product do in regards to these issues?
So Judy,
By my understanding, the only way to increase fuel mileage is:
a) lighten the load being moved.
b) Recalibrate the engine computer, thus injecting less fuel into the system.
c) Increase efficiency of the powerplant (engine)
What can your product do in regards to these issues?
http://www.truckingmagazines.com/
That is a link to periodicals and other items related to the trucking industry.
Can anyone reference a link to this product?
http://www.truckingmagazines.com/
That is a link to periodicals and other items related to the trucking industry.
Can anyone reference a link to this product?
So Judy,
By my understanding, the only way to increase fuel mileage is:
a) lighten the load being moved.
b) Recalibrate the engine computer, thus injecting less fuel into the system.
c) Increase efficiency of the powerplant (engine)
What can your product do in regards to these issues?
Lightening the load will increase fuel mileage, and while it's a practical, appropriate, and prudent step to take (there's no point in carrying unecessary weight in your vehicle) it's really not an accurate barometer with which to measure increased mileage, and it's certainly not a practical approach to getting the most out of your fuel, ...especially for those who are required to consistently carry heavy loads. That method is truly what you'd call a placebo. Doing that, you're not really increasing mileage, you're simply reducing the weight carried. That's the equivalent of saying switching from 100lb barbells to 10lb barbells makes you stronger, because you'll be able to do more curls. {lol}
What you want to do is increase the mileage with the same load. That's a more accurate barometer of a real mileage increase.
That might result in increased mileage, ...however, you're going to sacrifice power, and potentially void warranties. It's not something I would recommend. You really don't want to be tinkering with your engine unless you know what you're doing. Most people don't.
Now we're on the same sheet of music!!! :)
That's exactly what our catalyst does. It improves the efficiency of the engine.
We don't really think of it as a fuel additive. Technically, it is a fuel additive, only in so much as by legal definition, anything that goes into the fuel, technically, and legally is considered a fuel additive. Most of those function by either attempting to alter the molecular structure of the fuel, or through the inclusion of detergents etc that remove carbon etc., etc.,. Ours does not work that way, and for this reason we do not consider it a "fuel additive". Our product is a catalytic combustion chamber conditioner that works on the engine itself.
Our catalyst comes in 3 forms: (2 dry forms & 1 liquid form)(http://www.jaguarenterprises.net/images/test-reports-mpg-caps.jpg)
- mpg-cap - sold in a blister pack of 10 caplets, suitable for cars, trucks, passenger vehicles
(http://www.jaguarenterprises.net/images/mpg-mega-crumbs.jpg)
- mpg-mega-cumbs - a pre-crushed form of the mpg-cap for easier dissolvability in diesel
(http://www.jaguarenterprises.net/images/mpg-boost.jpg)
- mpg-boost - a liquid used by those with anti-siphon devices or those who run in colder climates
Most users prefer the mpg-mega-crumbs because it is far more economical, although it can be more cumbersome to accurately dose if you're not use to it. For most passenger vehicle owners, I suggest they start off with the mpg-caplet to ensure an accurate dosage. It's 1/2 gram in size, and scored down the centre enabling the user to break it in half whenever 1/4 gram sized dosages are needed. If they want the faster dissolve times to be found with the crumbs, then I recommend they use a cap crusher. A little device that can crush the caplet for them, as they introduce it into the fuel tank.
Our product is introduced into the fuel tank, simply to use the fuel as a carrier to transport the ingredients into the combustion chamber. While there, through organometallic chemistry, it adheres to the metal, resulting in a micro-thin catalytic coating, that alters the in-cylinder shape of the burn, creating a more perfect environment for the fuel to burn. It's quite similar to the function of a teflon pan, and is similar in appearance to a scorched pan. This catalytic coating is sacrificial in nature, in that it will protect the engine, as well as allow for a more even dispersal of fuel within the combustion chamber itself, as well as a conservation of heat within the engine.
If you were to remove the exhaust manifold from any vehicle, you'd typically see flames coming out the exhaust.
These flames represent fuel, that is still burning, as it is exiting the exhaust. :o
This does no one any good. Not the environment, not the vehicle, not the person paying for the fuel that is essentially and effectively at that point, doing nothing to power the vehicle down the road. With that in mind, the fact that when all is said and done, you have 99.6% of the today's fuels being burned completely, is not really as impressive a figure as it would seem at first blush, because you've got a percentage of that fuel burning out the exhaust.
What we want, is to see a maximum burn taking place, however from within the combustion chamber,
...and more importantly, we want it burning earlier in the combustion cycle, during the power stroke of the engine.
By burning the fuel earlier in the combustion cycle, during the power stroke, you get more power to your engine.
By accelerating the burn rate, you see a more complete burn during that cycle, you do not have the fuel burning out the exhaust cycle where it provides no benefit to powering the vehicle down the road. You also will have neither the same quantity of heat escaping the engine, nor the same quantity of unburned hydrocarbons exiting the exhaust. This results in both lowered exhaust temperatures, and lower emissions.
If one were to take a 10" X 10' foot vacuum tube filled with gasoline, and light it at one end, ...it would take 7 seconds to burn through to the other end. If you were to take that same 10" X 10' vacuum tube filled with gasoline that had our product dissolved in it, it acts similar to a hydrogen fuse. Hydrogen has a quicker burn rate than gasoline, and when ignited will speed up or accelerate the burn rate of the entire fuel mixture. When ignited, with the right fuel & air mixture, instead of taking 7 seconds to burn through to the other end, it will take only 2 - 3 seconds to burn through to the other end. The result is a more complete burn taking place, earlier in the combustion cycle, more horsepower to the engine, a lowered rate of fuel consumption, further distance traversed on less fuel, and reduced emissions.
In a nutshell, ....it's like Viagra for your engine. You get more power, and better performance. :P
In addition, the process of speeding up the rate at which the fuel is burned, you remove the time frame required for dangerous NOX to form. Nitrogen Oxides (NOX) are extremely nasty dangerous pre-cursors of smog. Historically, increasing the temperatures to reduce particulate matters, increases NOX formation. Reducing the NOX, results in an increase in unburned hydrocarbons and particulate matter. A double edged sword, or catch-22, ...until now. NOX is both temperature dependant, as well as time dependant, and by increasing the rate at which the fuel mixture burns, we remove the time factor from the equation preventing the NOX from forming to begin with. The result, lower particulate matter, and a reduction in NOX by as much as 75% or more.
We have a number of products in our fuel division that work synergistically with each other.
Some are not designed specifically to improve mileage, however, through effective use, we've seen increases occur.
This is not by magic, it's simply common sense.
Let's take our MPG-EXTremetm oil treatment for instance.
(http://www.jaguarenterprises.net/images/mpg-extreme.jpg)
It is an oil additive, a metal conditioner that you add to the crankcase. We all know what oil additives do, they improve the function of the oil etc., however, refering to it as an oil additive is really a misnomer. What this product does, is to electrostatically adhere to the metal within the crankcase, and reduces the friction of metal grinding against metal. By understanding the true function of this product, customers have been able to get the most out of it. In addition to putting it into the crankcase. they've used it in their transmissions, compressor units, their rears, ...pretty much anywhere they have metal grinding on metal. This protects and extends the life of these components, as well as reduces the friction. What do you think happens when someone reduces the friction throughout their entire drive train? What do you think happens when someone reduces the friction throughout the entire drive train, while simultaneously increasing the power being output by the engine, along with reducing the emissions coming out of the tailpipes or smokestacks?
When you look at it holistically, I'm sure you can see both how and why our customers are often able to see mileage increases in excess of the 7-14% we guarantee.
Don't get me wrong, ...I'm not saying that every customer has seen phenomenal increases, however many have.
We've had instances where customers didn't notice anything, which we found extremely perplexing. We discovered many things about the use of this product, and the many variables that can result in a customer NOT seeing the mileage increase they were lookng for. Based on the science behind this product, we knew it was literally impossible for it not to work. While the science is sound, ...user application is not.
Shortly after first starting to market this product, I quickly discovered that not everyone keeps track of their mileage, or drives in a manner that enables them to accurately track it over any period of time. I also discovered that a horrrendously large percentage of the population does not have any idea what their actual mileage is. They read the sticker from the manufacturer, and assume that's what they're getting. I also discovered that most don't even fill their tanks all the way, and calculate how many miles or kilometres they get on a full tank. Many will simply throw in $10 or $20 at a time. Their gas tanks have never been full. :o Then too, were the inconsistent dosing habits, and driving habits of the average driver. Your average hockey Mom will simply use her vehicle for errands, trips to the grocery store, toting the kids around town etc. One day she might drive 3 miles to the grocery store, another day 5 miles to the dry cleaners. A week later, she's driving her 4 sons to hockey practice (which will add another 250lbs including hockey equipment), the next day she's by herself as she drives to the gym, or the salon to get her hair or nails done. This doesn't even address the fact that on one of her trips, she might pass by a fuel station selling very inexpensive fuel, and decide to top off the tank (either neglecting to put the product in, ...or electing to throw more product in, despite already having fuel in the tank with a certain amount of product already in solution). There was no consistency, as well as even getting the engine up to proper operating temperature. It might even take her a month to consume an entire tank full of fuel. And with so many short inconsistent trips, her engine is probably full of carbon. The catalyst would first be required to burn off the carbon, before the coating can even go into place, and depending on the amount, could take 3 or four tankfulls of fuel. Trying to calculate all that with any degree of accuracy (effectively without the co-operation of the customer) is next to impossible, and quite frankly more trouble than I was willing to go through.
That's part of the reason that I chose to build my customer base with truckers. Truckers track their mileage diligently. In addition, to tracking mileage, they also maintain their equipment vigilently, maintaining proper tire pressure, changing fuel filters, keeping the carbon out of their engines, and disbursing the water from their tanks. I can't tell you how many people have tried the product (especially diesel users), had the pill land in the water in their tanks, not get a mileage increase they wanted, and assumed the product didn't work. The product DOES work, ...it just does not dissolve in water. So they ended up with a bunch of pills sitting in the bottom of their tanks. It didn't dissolve into the fuel, and therefore could not reach the combustion chamber. In instances where we have discovered this, we were able to correct it, and the drivers went on to see the increase they were looking for.
Then too, there were those who had an engine full of carbon. They didn't notice an instant increase because the carbon in their engines prevented the catalyst from adhering to the metal, so they gave up on the product before it had a chance to burn off the carbon. That's why we had some people seeing instant results right from the start, while others took time to see results. Thankfully, the company came out with a carbon cleaner called MPG-MAX-PRO, that could be used to remove the carbon right from the start allowing the catalyst to go into place immediately
(http://www.jaguarenterprises.net/images/mpg-max-pro.jpg)
Another factor we found was overdosing. That was a big one! Different engines seem to have a different sweet spot. If you put too much product in, you won't hurt your engine, you'll simply waste your money because you won't get the catalytic effect you're looking for. You might even develop too thick a coating which may actually start to absorb the fuel. In such an instance, ...your mileage may actually decrease. The catalytic coating disappears if you stop using the product, and a sure fire way of knowing if a customer has overdosed, is to simply have them run a few tankfuls without the product. As the coating disappears, it will quickly approach the right thickness, and they see a spike in their mileage. We just have them re-introduce the product, but at a lower dosage. I tell all my customers to disregard the dosages listed on the product, and start off by using it at a rate of 1 gram per every 60 US gallons or roughly 1 gram for every 225 litres. Then, based on their results, we can tweak the dosage from there either up or down. Here in North America, based on the fuel grades here, my customers are telling me that that particular dosage gives them the best results. Over in Australia where they have higher octane levels in their fuels, we've found that even lower doses are far more effective. In Latin & South America, quite the opposite is true. There, they've found higher dosages work best with the fuels they have to burn. In Mexico, most motorists expect to get a certain amount of water with every fillup. In Canada, we don't have to worry about the issue of hot fuel, however in certain parts of the south, like Texas, that can be an issue. So long as a user introduces the appropriate amount of product to fuel ratio, and the product dissolves in the fuel, they will get results. Whether they will be able to notice, much less accurately measure those results (like in the case of the hockey mom) is another story. They're still gonna get those results, but it doesn't matter if they don't realize they're getting those results, and as I said earlier, trying to calculate those mileage increases is more trouble than I'm willing to do. If you're going to sell beautiful watercolour paintings, ...a customer with 20/20 vision might have a better appreciation for the canvas than someone who goes through life with a seeing eye dog.
A trucker can travel as many miles in one day, that it might take the average driver to drive in a month. A trucker can easily cover 500 - 600 miles in a day. If he does a 1500 mile run that normally consumes 300 gallons of fuel, don't you think he's gonna notice it if he completes that same 1500 miles, but it only takes him 200 or 250 gallons of fuel?
And what's the cost to treat that 300 gallons of fuel? $15 dollars worth of product, ...or 1 cent per mile retail.
By investing in a product, that costs him just over 1 penny per mile, he is able to save 50 gallons of fuel.
Can you buy 50 gallons of fuel for $15 dollars? How much would 50 gallons of fuel cost you?
Let me give you 2 different scenarios. The same driver makes two separate identical trips with the same vehicle, under identical weather & road conditions, carrying identical loads, travelling the same speed, using the same driving habits. The only difference is that on one trip, he is NOT using our products, and on the other trip he is. Tell me, in which instance do you believe he has effectively lowered his fuel costs to make the same trip, and saved himself money?
Scenario one: Driver drives 1500 miles from point A - point B, and spends $600.oo on fuel to get there.
Scenario two: Driver drives 1500 miles from point A - point B, and spends $1,000.oo on fuel to get there.
Please stop.
Please stop what? ...please stop answering the questions posed to me?
You obviously have no interest in the subject, ...so why don't you simply please stop reading my responses.
Yet another worthless product I will definitely NOT be buying.
Please stop.
Yet another worthless product I will definitely NOT be buying.
La mujer intenta su mejor para vender mierda aunque nadie la cree.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d5/Spam_with_cans.jpeg/800px-Spam_with_cans.jpeg)
I found this:
From this site, a review of her produc t:
http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:ZyHLbF_fnYcJ:www.carbibles.com/productreviews_ffi.html+FFi+fuel+review&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
________________________ ________________________ ________________________ _
FFI mpg caps magic fuel pill
Tested September 2006
A work colleague of mine is a believer in the oil industry conspiracy theory, i.e. they keep anything from going to mass market that would dramatically save oil and give us, the consumers, better fuel economy in our vehicles. Since he was going to purchase a package of the magic FFI fuel pills, I volunteered to split the cost with him on the understanding that we could use his car as the guineau pig and that we could document the results for my site. I suspected I'd just wasted some lunch money but for the sake of adding more value to my site, I figured it was worth it.
My colleague's commuting car is a 1995 Volvo 850 Turbo, automatic with 257,000 miles on the clock. It has an on board average fuel consumption display in mpg that can be reset to zero to begin an averaging run. The engine was at operating temperature before each trial.
We first did a base line run between his house and our office - about 16 miles each way - with cruise control set to either 70mph or 75mph. The route has an HOV lane on the freeway so maintaining these speeds is easy for the sake of testing. The results are tabulated below.
mpg Distance in miles Cruise setting in mph
33.6 32 75
29.4 16 75
30.6 16 70
31.4 16 70
30.6 16 70
29.4 16 75
33.6 16 75
30.6 16 70
30.6 64 70
31.4 16 70
Running avg mpg = 31.12
Next we did the same sequence of drives, but with the FFI fuel pill in the tank.
mpg Distance in miles Cruise setting in mph
28.3 32 75
29.0 32 70
30.5 32 70
27.3 32 75
29.0 64 75
29.0 32 70
27.3 16 70
28.0 16 70
29.4 32 75
28.6 32 75
Running avg mpg = 28.64
If we group the results by speed, into 70mph and 75mph groupings, this is what it looks like.
For the pre pill 70mph speed the average is 30.86mpg
For the post pill 70mph speed the average is 28.76mpg
For the pre pill 75mph speed the average is 31.5mpg
For the post pill 75mph speed the average is 28.52mpg
Conclusion. On average, with the pill in the tank, we saw a drop in fuel economy by about 2mpg. There was no perceivable increase in acceleration or the ability to perform at-speed overtaking maneuvers. This pill is another scam. Don't bother with it.
The raging debate.
As well as a response from FFI (see below), my review has garnered comments from other people who've tried this product out. Out of the many emails I've had, this is one of the most interesting:
I just want to comment on the MPG Caps from Fuel Freedom International. I tested the caps for 5 months in 4 vehicles, 2 Camrys a 2002 & 2004, a Toyota Tundra 2005 truck & a 1973 VW Beetle. I saw a decrease in mpg in all vehicles and gave up after testing over 20,000 miles total. Some people claim that it works, but you cannot prove it by me. In addition, I gave out pills to others who found either no improvement or also lost mpg. I was a distributor for them but obviously I am no longer...I do not want to promote something that only works for a few.
Followup - calling their bluff?
A couple of weeks after posting my review, I was contacted by an FFI representative who didn't think I'd been fair by trying their product out in an older car. He suggested I re-performed the test at their expense in a newer vehicle. I offered up my (at the time) 2000 mile Honda Element and gave them an address to send the product to for testing. Thanks to a natty little 'count up' javascript, I can tell you that it's now been 986 days since then and I've yet to see anything. The original order for the product for the original test took only three days to get here. Have I called their bluff?
Back to product reviews
________________________ ________________________ _____________
Jag - your product is a joke.
La mujer intenta su mejor para vender mierda aunque nadie la cree.
I have two questions:
1. has this product ever been tested by Consumer Reports or a similar tesying facility?
and
2. Why is this product not available in stores?
I found this:
From this site, a review of her produc t:
http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:ZyHLbF_fnYcJ:www.carbibles.com/productreviews_ffi.html+FFi+fuel+review&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
________________________ ________________________ ________________________ _
FFI mpg caps magic fuel pill
Tested September 2006
..... {snipped for the sake of brevity}....
For the pre pill 70mph speed the average is 30.86mpg
For the post pill 70mph speed the average is 28.76mpg
For the pre pill 75mph speed the average is 31.5mpg
For the post pill 75mph speed the average is 28.52mpg
Conclusion. On average, with the pill in the tank, we saw a drop in fuel economy by about 2mpg.
Based on both the date of his tests, as well as the results he saw... I'm pretty confident in making the assumption he was overdosing. I cannot say for certain, but I'd bet money on it. As I stated in the earlier post, too much product can result in too thick a coating that may in fact absorb the fuel, resulting in lowered mileage. We didn't change the recommended dosage until well into the winter months. Either late 2006 or early 2007. After much urging and grumbling by US the distributors, the company again altered the recommended dosage in August of 2008. These new dosages are no where near where we want to see them based on the feedback we receive back from our customers, but it is what it is, ...and we simply ask our customers to use the dosage that we know is effective.
And more:
http://www.fuelsaving.info/ffi.htm
________________________ ________________________ _______
Case Study: Fuel Freedom International's MPG-Caps
The MPG-Cap is another gas-"saving" product intended to be added to a vehicle's fuel tank. While apparently developed many years ago, FFI began selling it earnest around November 2005. As with many such products, it is sold via multi-level marketing, which immediately triggers warning bells among sceptics. Some perfectly good and effective products are sold through MLM, but it is also a common method employed by scammers and snake-oil salesmen to maximise revenue from ineffective products.
Theory
FFI helpfully provide a good explanation of how the MPG-Caps supposedly work. The theory is that the additive does not affect combustion directly, but forms a coating on the inside surface of the combustion chamber that then promotes complete burning of the fuel.
An immediate question is, what is the coating? Precious metals such as platinum, palladium and rhodium are commonly used in car catalytic converters to promote "burning" of the hydrocarbons in the exhaust, yet there does not seem to be any indication that this sort of material is contained in the MPG-Caps.
The second question is: supposing the product does form a catalytically active coating, what effect may be expected? This is discussed in detail here, but in summary, it seems unlikely to provide major benefits - particularly since the burn in any modern engine is already 98 - 99% complete. A specific concern is that the product claims to speed up the burn, which does not generally result in improved fuel consumption.
Especially interesting is to view the report FFI sent to the EPA for their registration application. The report makes it clear that the main purpose of the product is to allow pre-1973 engines to use unleaded petrol. Chief among the effects that allow it to do this are protection from valve seat wear and a slight increase in octane rating (about 0.5 points). What is entirely missing from this report, so far as I can tell, is evidence of significant improvements in fuel consumption.
On the subject of the EPA, many resellers make the comment "EPA registered!" as if this were proof of effectiveness. Yet as the EPA clearly state on Page 2 of the report, registration is absolutely not any kind of "endorsement" or "approval" of the product.
Test results
FFI's test results can be found here. While interesting, the lack of any information on the test protocols makes it hard to establish how well controlled the tests were. As with all on-road tests, it is very easy for external effects (weather, traffic, etc) to produce changes in measured economy of similar size to the claimed effect of the gas-saving product.
For example, on Page 12 of the report, the test fleet shows an economy change from 3% below normal to 12% above when the product was used, followed by a drop to normal when the product was removed. But at the same time, the "control" fleet (without FFI) showed an increase from -3 to +6, followed by a drop to -4 at the end of the test period. That is to say, the test fleet improved economy by 15% with MPG-Caps, but the other fleet also gained 9% at the same time without the MPG-Caps. In other words, some other external factor - for example weather, or usage patterns - was responsible for a very large improvement in economy at this time; so much so, that the economy of the "control" fleet actually goes outside the 95% statistical confidence limits that are presumably meant to distinguish between natural variation and a "real" economy benefit. So the "10% improvement" claimed for FFI could be just a statistical fluke; at the very least, a large proportion of this benefit is apparently due to some other factor.
These pills are a sad joke. Any possible savings in fuel is more than eaten up by the cost of the pills themselves. What a sad joke.
Scientific testing
What is required instead, in order to prove the effectiveness of any gas-"saving" product, is "proper" scientific testing. As with all such products, it seems astonishing that FFI are apparently not willing to spend a tiny fraction of the potential profits on establishing incontrovertible proof of effectiveness. If FFI does believe in the product enough to do this, I would be happy to advise on test protocols and companies who might be able to do the work.
Some FFI "experts" have claimed that the standard test cycle is somehow unable to detect the economy gain the MPG-Cap delivers. No technical explanation for this is given, other than the standard "it's on a dynamometer not on the road, so obviously it's not the same" non-explanation - which suggests that the burning fuel and air somehow miraculously "know" whether they are on the road or on a dynamometer.
Perhaps the claim is that the conditions of the drive cycle do not reflect typical real-world driving conditions in terms of load and speed - which, while partially true, does not explain why other, more "appropriate" test cycles could not be used. Nor, as mentioned before, do FFI (who you would think would know) explain the exact technical reason why their product works under certain conditions but not others. In any case, engines are (as a rule) less efficient at the relatively low loads seen on the standard test cycle, becoming more efficient at higher loads - so any fuel saving product is actually more likely to display a benefit on the test cycle than under other conditions. There is simply more "room for improvement" available.
Interestingly, FFI actually did initiate a test at the highly respected test house Millbrook in England, in February 2007 (see bottom of this page). This has been followed by a total silence from FFI, and I understand from a recent Jerry Lang video that this is because the test proved no economy benefit. Jerry has claimed that this is due to the fuel consumption calculation being affected by the combustion changed caused by the MPG-Cap, but to me this makes no sense.
A presumably similar test is apparently being conducted at TÜV in Austria. Again we were promised results in September 2007, yet nothing has appeared.
Also along these lines is a test conducted recently in Australia. This is a test on a 10-ton diesel truck and involves running the vehicle on a dynamometer over a defined test cycle, as demanded by the EPA and other authorities.
It can be seen that the economy benefit is highly variable, falling to almost nothing under some of the test conditions. But the average benefit is still 7%, which is convincing - isn't it? Well, not entirely, because this test still falls some way short of the requirement for rigorous scientific testing:
- There is no repeat testing, so we don't know if this vehicle has naturally high variability in fuel consumption, and it is just coincidence that the results with the MPG-Cap are better
- There is no A-B-A test, so we don't know if some other unrelated factor is responsible for the economy improvement
- Without a "standard" figure for what fuel economy and emissions a truck of this sort should achieve on this test, we don't know if the vehicle was in good condition beforehand or not (maybe the MPG-Cap is just masking an existing problem)
And, of course, it is highly debatable how relevant the results from a 10-ton diesel truck are to the typical FFI consumer, who drives a petrol (gasoline) car or SUV.
The test also gives information about the toxic pollutants from the test vehicle. This website focusses on fuel economy rather than emissions, and since the FFI product is called the MPG-Cap, this is surely what matters most. But because many correspondents claim the Cap "reduces emissions by 90%", or "reduces emissions to nearly zero", or something along those lines, it is worth also looking at the percentage emissions change:
Segment NOx change CH4 change HC change CO change
So even if we take these results at face value and assume the change is entirely due to the MPG-Cap (ignoring all the comments above about lack of rigour in the testing), the emissions reduction is far less than the 90%+ frequently claimed.
Interestingly, I have found one reference to a "proper" drive-cycle test on a typical gasoline car with the MPG-Cap, conducted on behalf of the German motoring organisation ADAC. The ADAC found no benefit at all from the MPG-Cap (in fact a worsening in economy from 7.1 to 7.2 litres/100km). The test process was:
- measure economy without the MPG-Cap
- drive for 800 km (500 miles) using the MPG-Cap
- measure economy with the MPG-Cap
While not a totally robust test, it does provide additional eveidence in support of the view that the MPG-Cap is of very limited benefit.
Testimonials
As with most fuel "saving" products, the primary evidence in favour is uncontrolled on-road testing, where people compare their economy with and without MPG-Caps. As explained here, it is very easy to get false results from this sort of testing since fuel economy is very strongly affected by traffic, driving style, weather, etc. Espcially significant is the "placebo effect" - anyone who has invested in FFI, and wants to see it work, will naturally (if unconsciously) adopt a more economical driving style. (Also, do not forget the "MLM effect" mentioned at the top of the page.) Similarly, claims of improved performance are almost entirely restricted to comments along the lines of "my car feels quicker now", which could very easily just be wishful thinking.
There is a long history with fuel "saving" products of glowing testimonial evidence followed by scientific testing proving that the product/device has only a tiny effect (for example, the Ecotek CB-26B. Because of this, governments and other regulatory bodies generally say that testimonial evidence on its own is not sufficient to demonstrate the effectiveness of any fuel "saving" product. (See for example the advice from the Federal Trade Commission.)
Those who market and support MPG-Caps, as with other fuel "saving" products, always condemn those who criticise them without trying for themselves. "If you haven't tried it in your car, you can't comment on it", they say. But the point is this: the sceptics know very well that any testing they could do would prove absolutely nothing, due to the natural fluctuations in fuel consumption. Maybe they would see an improvement, maybe they wouldn't. Either way it would not demonstrate conclusively whether the product works or not. Only rigorous scientific testing can do this (and such testing costs far more than any independent individual such as myself can afford).
Media reports
The various media reports on FFI - for example from WTMJ, WSAZ and WTOV - are often cited as "proof" of its effectiveness. Yet these are just testimonials, with no attempt at scientific testing or controlled conditions. Generally the test length is also far too short to get any kind of meaningful result, given how much economy naturally varies from tank to tank.
More surprisingly, both WSAZ and WTOV apparently got a big economy improvement instantly after adding the MPG-Cap - but FFI themselves say that a conditioning period (typically 50 gallons usage) is needed to build up the coating and cause improvements. So whatever produced the better fuel consumption, it almost certainly wasn't the MPG-Cap!
The Auto Channel also carried a positive article about the MPG-Caps in 2006. But it's not obvious to me whether this is a truly independent review or simply a paid "advertorial"; nor is there any description of what test was done to "prove" that the product works. In other words, it seems to be just another testimonial.
Comments from Jerry Lang
Recently a number of reports from "Jerry Lang", a combustion consultant, have appeared on FFI's website. Jerry seems to be quite genuine, though I see no evidence for extensive experience with car engines or emissions control equipment (whereas, without blowing my own trumpet, I have). Nonetheless, Jerry makes some interesting points, which are worth considering.
First is a comment on test results from Southwest Research Institute, looking at analyses of fuel with and without FFI added. The interesting statement here is that, on all the usual measures of fuel characteristics, "if you were to stop at two separate [gas] stations you could see greater differences in the composition" - in other words, the effect of FFI is negligible on these tests. Only an increase in octane rating can be detected (which fits the idea that it helps very old cars run on unleaded), and this is in any case only about one third of the difference between regular and premium fuel.
Jerry's other report begins with an explanation of how the product works, which basically ties in with that described above, but also adds an additional claim: that the product reduces heat transfer to the combustion chamber walls, so improving efficiency. In principle this makes some sense - heat loss to the walls is a major factor in reducing efficiency - but from my experience, I am highly sceptical that the effect is as large as is claimed. Experiments with so-called "adiabatic engines", with very good thermal insulation, have generally given disappointing results - in general, the reduced heat loss simply results in an increase in exhaust temperature rather than a major improvement in efficiency. Reducing heat loss would also tend to increase NOx emissions (these are strongly dependent on temperature), and could even promote damaging knock. I would like to see some actual measurements of heat transfer and thermal conductivity before accepting this analysis at face value.
The report also goes on to describe some fuel consumption experiments that Jerry has carried out. The problem is that, yet again, this is just an uncontrolled testimonial - all kinds of factors such as weather, traffic or driving style could be responsible for the improvement in economy seen. Certainly it doesn't constitute scientific evidence.
Emissions reduction and economy gain
Some commentators have noticed reductions in exhaust emissions when using MPG-Caps, and regard this as proof of economy improvement. There are two problems with this:
First, emissions measurements have their own natural variability. Factors such as engine temperature, atmospheric conditions, and (crucially) catalyst temperature can all strongly influence emissions levels. Simply driving the car hard for a few miles can heat the catalyst enough to give a large drop in emissions as the catalyst is then working better.
The second, and more important, problem is that emissions measurements are a poor guide to economy. It is true that very high levels of emissions (especially unburnt fuel) - caused by a faulty spark plug, for example - do imply bad economy. But on modern cars in good condition the level of unburnt fuel in the exhaust is already so low that further reductions are essentially insignificant in terms of economy. Partly for this reason, the US Environmental Protection Agency's guide to evaluating fuel "saving" devices specifically excludes emissions data such as the Inspection & Maintenance (I/M) test as evidence of effectiveness.
Conclusion
The product was apparently primarily designed as a way to allow older engines to run on unleaded gasoline
The theory does not, to me, seem to support expectations of large economy improvements
Much of the test data relates to older vehicles, and does not seem sufficiently well controlled to constitute proof
Based on this, and the fact that virtually every other "miracle" fuel additive brought to the market has failed to deliver the promised benefits, I am highly sceptical that MPG-Caps really give sufficient economy gain in typical gasoline cars to make it economically worthwhile.
As with all aftermarket fuel "saving" devices, my advice to FFI is simple: if you believe in your product, spend 0.01% of your income on rigorous scientific testing to prove it really works. If you don't, sceptics will draw their own conclusions as to why not.
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Jag - you have some explaining to do.
Jag, I simply dont see the value in this.
How is someone saving money by putting pills in their tank for such a little average benefit. The money they have to spend on these pills is money otherwise spent on gas itself.
Please go back and answer the question from the 2 scenarios I posed earlier, ...and you will see how.
If $15 worth of product can result in 50 gallons LESS fuel being consumed,
...that's 50 gallon LESS fuel has to be purchased. What would you rather do?
Spend $15 and improve the environment while you're at it, ...or buy an additional 50 gallons of fuel?
"If this product was placed in stores, it wouldn't sell very well because no one would know of it's existance.
A product only sells in a retail environment, when a customer:
a) knows of it's existence to begin with
b) goes to the store with the specific intent of purchasing it"
You really dont believe that nonsense do you??????
If the product worked as advertised people would go to the store any buy it like they do millions of other PROVEN products by REPUTABLE companies.
This simply makes no sense. I will do the math later, but this is impossible based on what is being reported from users.
My 2007 BMW 328 gets anywhere from 22 to 35 mpg depending on where and how I drive. Do you realize how long it would take for me to save 50 gallons of gas based on small increase in mpg you claim????
That seems like a terrible business model on your end.
This fits well into the article I posted earlier in the thread.
I am not sold on this or anything unless and until it undergoes independent testing with published results of the testing conditions, etc.
For YOU, that might not be the case for someone else. A trucker can do that in a matter of days.
Please refer to reply #119 on page 5 of this thread.
Again, here are the scenarios: The same driver makes two separate identical trips with the same vehicle, under identical weather & road conditions, carrying identical loads, travelling the same speed, using the same driving habits. The only difference is that on one trip, he is NOT using our products, and on the other trip he is. Tell me, in which instance do you believe he has effectively lowered his fuel costs to make the same trip, improved his mileage and saved himself money?
Scenario one: Driver drives 1500 miles from point A - point B, and spends $600.oo on fuel to get there.
Scenario two: Driver drives 1500 miles from point A - point B, and spends $1,000.oo on fuel to get there.
:o :o A Nobel prize in chemistry isn't good enough for you? ::) And people tell me I'm a snob! {hrmph} ;D
I wouldn't expect you "to be sold on it" until you actually used it yourself and saw results.
Whether you are willing to try it is a whole other story. That's completely up to you, and if you do decide to try it, ...you know where you can get it.
Thats my point - it simply does not work or is worthwhile for most people.
Ill tell you what - I have a 2002 explorer as well. Send me a case for free and I will test it out.
Anyone who can afford to drive a 2007 BMW and a 2002 Explorer can afford the $20.oo for a blister pack. ;D
I'm sending you a PM
Does it work on a Seadoo? I have a 2008 Seadoo RXT (Great Canadian product!) and that thing burns gas like there is no tommorow.
Yes, it will work in a Seadoo as well. You might even get the top speed up. ;D
Cars, boats, trucks, farm equipment, motorcycles, lawnmowers, furnaces, weed whackers, leaf blowers, etc., etc.,
...if it's an internal combustion engine, and you can get it to dissolve in the fuel, ...it'll work.
I never did the thing on GPS by the speedodmeter said 69 miles per hour. that probably means 64-65 on the GPS.
This was down near the Statue of Liberty and Brooklyn Bridge and it felt fast as hell, not to mention the freaking ferries all over the place and circle line that almost ran me over.
Since her product is so good I am sure she will give you a free sample after which you will see just how great it is...
Judy,
I would like a sample as well. One for a diesel and one for a gas fuel system.
Thanks.