DNA pioneer's theory: Africans are less intelligent than Westerners

[Cap]

Sprinting has virtually nothing to do with academic achievement. US culture doesn't promote being a whole person, unlike Greek culture, which extolled the virtue of being in shape in the mind and body. Physical beauty and athletic achievement SHOULD go hand in hand with academic achievement.   

Am Football players, Basketball players, and sprinters are only trained for what they do, thru-out their schooling.  They get passes on academic tests and classes, which only hurt them in the long-run.

Mnay have the opportunity for free education, why not take advantage of it?  You can't tell me that these guys don't realize the value of an education, especially when they are done playing sports. It's funny how a place kicker will be more studious because he knows he is likely not to get drafted but a cornerback assumes he will.  Plan for the worst and expect for the best is what these guys should be doing.  I work with college athletes and I know the mentality.  It is very central to certain sports but many realize they are getting a free education and are getting a good deal for their brain and potentially their bank accounts.  Most guys red shirt in football so they are there four years and take bullshit majors, but it is still a degree and that means something.  Blame the individuals, not the coaches and schools.  The family tells these kids they will only go to college if they can play, and these kids internalize that and the results are the idiots we see interviewed on television.

[Parker]

Mnay have the opportunity for free education, why not take advantage of it?  You can't tell me that these guys don't realize the value of an education, especially when they are done playing sports. It's funny how a place kicker will be more studious because he knows he is likely not to get drafted but a cornerback assumes he will.  Plan for the worst and expect for the best is what these guys should be doing.  I work with college athletes and I know the mentality.  It is very central to certain sports but many realize they are getting a free education and are getting a good deal for their brain and potentially their bank accounts.  Most guys red shirt in football so they are there four years and take bullshit majors, but it is still a degree and that means something.  Blame the individuals, not the coaches and schools.  The family tells these kids they will only go to college if they can play, and these kids internalize that and the results are the idiots we see interviewed on television.

True, the individuals have to take responsibility, but when you grow up from middle school on and people are always touting you as a phenom combined that with a household who only focus on your athletic achievements (much like those who only focus on the child's academic achievements), you have a very bad recipe. Then when they are in high school, if their parents and their heads aren't on straight and big name college programs come knocking on their doors, what do you think they are gonna do?

Now take a athlete who knows he ain't the star or doesn't really have what it takes, he will have a back up plan Or...

Not everyone has Grant Hill's parents.

Grant Hill was going to go to University of MD, but choose not to because of the academic program, wasn't what he wanted. He had that instilled in him from the get-go.

[Nordic Superman]

Parker, I won't lie, your bias sickens me.

That's not an answer. Modern inventions, modern governments etc etc even the freedoms you enjoy were proposed by a white man.

Of course "Guns, Germs and Steel" and your "My Dad can beat Your dad" arguement refutes this

Rant rash.

[Cap]

True, the individuals have to take responsibility, but when you grow up from middle school on and people are always touting you as a phenom combined that with a household who only focus on your athletic achievements (much like those who only focus on the child's academic achievements), you have a very bad recipe. Then when they are in high school, if their parents and their heads aren't on straight and big name college programs come knocking on their doors, what do you think they are gonna do?

Now take a athlete who knows he ain't the star or doesn't really have what it takes, he will have a back up plan Or...

Not everyone has Grant Hill's parents.

Grant Hill was going to go to University of MD, but choose not to because of the academic program, wasn't what he wanted. He had that instilled in him from the get-go.

Certainly, but to take so much focus off the individual and family is irresponsible to me.  If one of the corners I worked with bitched about not getting drafted and then did not know what to do, I would not feel sympathy because nothing is written in stone with professional athletics.  I would truly be upset with myself and my parents if I were in that situation because I know the value of education when sports injury occurs and granted I came from a better background but my parents always put sports second to education and I think that I am a better person for it and why not be able to say that you are an educated black professional athlete rather than a 3 year attendee of UT and functionally illiterate Safety for the Cowboys.  This is the reality of college athletes in the major sports.  Trust me, a lot of my guys can't spell basic words.  The jock mentality and stupidity is present in all athletes but is more prevalent in football and basketball.

[Parker]

Certainly, but to take so much focus off the individual and family is irresponsible to me.  If one of the corners I worked with bitched about not getting drafted and then did not know what to do, I would not feel sympathy because nothing is written in stone with professional athletics.  I would truly be upset with myself and my parents if I were in that situation because I know the value of education when sports injury occurs and granted I came from a better background but my parents always put sports second to education and I think that I am a better person for it and why not be able to say that you are an educated black professional athlete rather than a 3 year attendee of UT and functionally illiterate Safety for the Cowboys.  This is the reality of college athletes in the major sports.  Trust me, a lot of my guys can't spell basic words.  The jock mentality and stupidity is present in all athletes but is more prevalent in football and basketball.

Oh I believe you, but as you have seen dudes don't think of that. I went to high school with a dude who was one of the top 25 wide recievers in the country back in the mid 90's, he didn't have his head screwed on right (over a dumb chick) now his ass didn't grad. form that college. Had a chance to go to Nebraska Or Florida State back when they were the shit---needless to say, dumb decision making. I also went to school with a dude whose mother was a professor at MD-said Joe Smith was as dumb as rocks. But, schools make it easier for these dudes, because they want to make money on them, as long as they are playing good and bringing in the dollars, it's all good, and as you know it gets to their heads.

I went to a Historical Black University, where you know, they don't get the best picks when it comes to athletics, which meant that you either put your time in academics or work your ass off to be a better athlete. Allen Iverson once visited my college during intramurals ( in HBCU's the best athletes tend not to be on the teams)   and commented that he was very impressed at the quality of game, and this was while he was a G-town.   This is also where i have seen the most diesel dudes aside from the amateur and pro bodybuilders. But they were as smart as hell, because they knew how to combine the mind and body. 

It is the individual plus what was instilled in them...



this is for Nordic S-man, to piggy back on what I said months ago about Muslim inventions. This is not to hi-jack this thread either.

http://www.thehistorychannel.co.uk/site/tv_guide/full_details/World_history/programme_76.php

The Book of Knowledge of Ingenious Mechanical Devices, by Al Jazari
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Jazari

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/musim_inventions

[Al Doggity]

One of the world's most eminent scientists was embroiled in an extraordinary row last night after he claimed that black people were less intelligent than white people and the idea that "equal powers of reason" were shared across racial groups was a delusion.


Personally, why can't this be true? How long do we have to wait until we can openly discuss such matters with everyone up in arms about petty morality?

Can only the good attributes to race based genetic advantages (ie. how many white 100m sprinters do you see?) be discussed?

Not saying I believe people of African descent are less intelligent, I'd have to research this issue further to come to that conclusion.

What about the possibility that racial differences also leaders to intellectual capacity?

Let's assume that you come to the conclusion that there is plenty of evidence to support this theory.

What advantages do you see in accepting it as true?

[Tre]

Sprinting has virtually nothing to do with academic achievement. US culture doesn't promote being a whole person, unlike Greek culture, which extolled the virtue of being in shape in the mind and body. Physical beauty and athletic achievement SHOULD go hand in hand with academic achievement.   

Am Football players, Basketball players, and sprinters are only trained for what they do, thru-out their schooling.  They get passes on academic tests and classes, which only hurt them in the long-run.

I hope that you're working on a book (assuming you haven't already published one), because you're spot-on, every time. 

[Nordic Superman]

Let's assume that you come to the conclusion that there is plenty of evidence to support this theory.

What advantages do you see in accepting it as true?

Science, knowledge and understanding.

Note one of the guys key remarks revolves around treating the africans as if they have the intelligence of the westerners.

Of course the members of getbig are more intelligent than this nobel prize (even the black ones!).

They should really consider some of the getbig crue during the next nobel nominations.

[Parker]

I hope that you're working on a book (assuming you haven't already published one), because you're spot-on, every time. 

Thanks Tre,  I think I will, after I get my Masters in History, I will plan on being a Professor someday....need to get my rear in gear.

Parker, I won't lie, your bias sickens me.

That's not an answer. Modern inventions, modern governments etc etc even the freedoms you enjoy were proposed by a white man.

Of course "Guns, Germs and Steel" and your "My Dad can beat Your dad" arguement refutes this

Rant rash.

I am biased towards  those who always tell me , "I won't be shit, and I'll never be as smart as a white guy", that head guy won't work on me, because I've seen white dudes who were supposedly the shit when it came to smarts, but were really as dumb rocks. If I believe the woman who called me  a "dumb n igger" and to get out of "her" neighborhood (she moved into mine), I would have played in traffic a loong time ago.

And by the way, have you looked at Guns, Germs and Steel, at the links I provided. Or are you just going to dismiss them? Now that is biased, anything that doesn't jive with your beleifs you dismiss...seems like you have a lot in common with Muslim extremists than you care to admit.

[240 is Back]

Good points.  Just look at how P.E. has been disappearing from school curricula. 

A large part of Mike Huckabee's platform is the importance of PE, art, and music.  Makes a lot of sense.

[Nordic Superman]

I am biased towards  those who always tell me , "I won't be shit, and I'll never be as smart as a white guy", that head guy won't work on me, because I've seen white dudes who were supposedly the shit when it came to smarts, but were really as dumb rocks. If I believe the woman who called me  a "dumb n igger" and to get out of "her" neighborhood (she moved into mine), I would have played in traffic a loong time ago.

And by the way, have you looked at Guns, Germs and Steel, at the links I provided. Or are you just going to dismiss them? Now that is biased, anything that doesn't jive with your beleifs you dismiss...seems like you have a lot in common with Muslim extremists than you care to admit.

Wow, a grudge fuels you, cool Are you part palestinian by any chance?

I didn't dismiss it, I'm the one who agrees it's a complex affair in regards to this topic. Read my messages.

[dorkeroo]

Science, knowledge and understanding.

Note one of the guys key remarks revolves around treating the africans as if they have the intelligence of the westerners.

Of course the members of getbig are more intelligent than this nobel prize (even the black ones!).

They should really consider some of the getbig crue during the next nobel nominations.

I agree that sometimes people talk out of their asses here, however, I do believe that accepting this kind of thing based on genetics and not on nurture as well is really short sighted.

I have a graduate education in molecular biology and am going higher, and while I know I will never win a Nobel Prize, I believe that one has to remember that progress in science requires constant questioning and honesty.

I respect the guy proposing this, however, I think maybe he is being a bit short sighted. I said in another thread that genetics, if you want to get down to it, is a blue print for making different kinds of meat. These proteins then interact according to laws of thermodynamics and one gets the equilibrium of life. I know it is more complicated than that, but so is this theory that is being postulated.

Now while there are lots of possibilities that the initial qualities of the produced meats may differ across the board, there is also evidence that many tissues of the body can be improved through exercise (the brain included).

That being said, there may be cultural things whether we like it or not that influence these kinds of things and until all the potentially biasing variables can be addressed (where and how people are brought up and how they are taught to view themselves for just a few), I think we are spinning our wheels here.

[Parker]

Wow, a grudge fuels you, cool Are you part palestinian by any chance?

I didn't dismiss it, I'm the one who agrees it's a complex affair in regards to this topic. Read my messages.

No, a grudge, doesn't fuel me, but people's ignorance does (especially when they try and drop a flower pot on a 6 year kid). I chose not to judge people on race or ethnicity, that is not my enemy, ignorance is...

Fair enough, it is complex.

[Nordic Superman]

One thing, do you understand who the man is making these statements?

In this debate "he is being a bit short sighted" doesn't work.

I agree the majority of the problem in Africa is nurture.

Hilarity ensues when the black members of getbig accept sporting advantages of blacks, but state that the statistics show that they have lower average IQ than Caucasians and the worms come out of the woodwork. Hey man! Let us have it both ways!

Look at this thread, it's not even up for debate apparently, blacks are 100% in intelligence with whites.

[dorkeroo]

One thing, do you understand who the man is making these statements?

In this debate "he is being a bit short sighted" doesn't work.

I agree the majority of the problem in Africa is nurture.

Hilarity ensues when the black members of getbig accept sporting advantages of blacks, but state that the statistics show that they have lower average IQ than Caucasians and the worms come out of the woodwork. Hey man! Let us have it both ways!

Look at this thread, it's not even up for debate apparently, blacks are 100% in intelligence with whites.

How does the argument being short sighted not work?

[Nordic Superman]

How does the argument being short sighted not work?

It's not comprehensive enough when dealing with a man in his position.

You really think that's an adequate critique of his position, that he's "short sighted"?

[dorkeroo]

It's not comprehensive enough when dealing with a man in his position.

You really think that's an adequate critique of his position, that he's "short sighted"?

Actually in this case I do believe it is okay to question people regardless of position if one is educated to do so. One problem that can occur in academia is that people often get so taken up with who someone is, they forget that they are human and if scientists, welcome questioning into their ideas. That is how scientific progress is made. Nobody is infallible and if I am wrong about this I will be the first to admit it.

Another hallmark of the scientific philosophy is controlling as many variables as one can in order to make distinction and produce results. Stating DNA is the be all and end all is not correct regardless of who you are talking about. I have been in school too long to budge on this one.

In this case I believe that there are too many socially derived confounding factors to make a call like he did. If you don't agree that is fine and if you don't like my ideas that is fine too. All tissues in the body develop differently depending on the stimuli they are exposed to. Maybe blacks start out with lower quality neurons. Maybe not. Someone should look into it. If it is true, that is a conclusion one can make. If it is not, maybe culture is important too. I personally believe in the latter.

I am not trying to be a dick, I am just trying to say that too much progress has been made independent of Watson and although he was a biologic pioneer, many others were as well that made mistakes as well as moved things along at a high rate.

[Nordic Superman]

I agree one shouldn't be humbled into agreeing with someone in his position.

However, he does come with some clout and I really don't think "being short sighted" is proper critique.

Remember, this is an highly intelligent man, who knew full well the topic was like a land mine, but still made the comments.

[dorkeroo]

I agree one shouldn't be humbled into agreeing with someone in his position.

However, he does come with some clout and I really don't think "being short sighted" is proper critique.

Remember, this is an highly intelligent man, who knew full well the topic was like a land mine, but still made the comments.

You are right, however, I am not sure how else to describe his comments. Maybe you can suggest a better way?

He definitely has "clout" as you would say, however, maybe if he gave more insight into how he came about his conclusions would give people a better idea of how he came to his conclusions.

Perhaps the way some people are reacting are silencing any opportunities he may have to clarify his position and give out some real hard evidence to support his case?

Like I said before, I just would prefer evidence instead of depending on someone's name, especially since something like this is really a hot topic.

[Nordic Superman]

I agree.

The man himself has fantastic credentials, I haven't researched beyond that.

The completeness of my knowledge on this topic revolves around that single news article. As I stated in my very first message in this thread, I would have to research it further to get a better idea. The article doesn't go on to provide any additional info.

What I do find amusing is: Science Museum cancels talk by Watson after 'racist' comments

Sad day for science if they come to the conclusion that his remarks are racist. I honestly do not see any racism in the comments, and for an establishment like a museum to come to that conclusion is a joke.

[dorkeroo]

I agree.

The man himself has fantastic credentials, I haven't researched beyond that.

The completeness of my knowledge on this topic revolves around that single news article. As I stated in my very first message in this thread, I would have to research it further to get a better idea. The article doesn't go on to provide any additional info.

What I do find amusing is: Science Museum cancels talk by Watson after 'racist' comments

Sad day for science if they come to the conclusion that his remarks are racist. I honestly do not see any racism in the comments, and for an establishment like a museum to come to that conclusion is a joke.

You are right about it being a sad day for science. I hope there is more to this than what is presented in this article.

[Camel Jockey]

The way things happen socially and stuff would tend to back up that man's claims.

Not way it's true, but can't call it false either. There's a reason whitey and kikey are on top. And I'm not ashamed to say that they are generally smarter than black, brown and yellow folks, with brown and yellow folks' cases still being up in the air. But I think there's plenty to suggest that in general, blacks aren't as smart.

Look at the travesty that is Africa. Now before you go on about colonialism, look at China. You may say Indians are uncivilized, but they have contributed a huge deal, as have plenty of others who aren't tops these days. I mean Pakistan was the birth place of the Indus Valley civilization. What has come out of Africa? I mean the early romans, greeks, persians, punics, indians, chinese and germanic folks(2,500) years ago were smarter and better learned than most african nations today.  Isn't that pathetic?

[gcb]

earth to getbig earth to getbig. This is true many Harvard psychologists came to this conclusion back in the 60's and wrote books on it.

Some people's names you may recognize that have suggested such: Darwin, Piaget, Jung, Locke.....

I think you failed to grasp the science in it, they have done such studies and those of latino, and african decent usually fall 25 standard deviations below the sample population, it is like the Ferry theory only it has not evolved it seems to have devolved and become stale, they were predicting through industrilization that blacks and latinos would pick up more knowledge and hindsight, but have yet to show this.

Some theories account for the affirmitive action, and welfare shoppers, some label it as a motivational token reinforcer where they ae learned helplessness. Take california for instance they got rid of affirmitive action, and blacks are doing very good latinos also.

Regardless of the cry babies on this site who scream racism, the group that receives the real racism and bigotry are the native americans.

Do these studies take into account economic and cultural background? I mean what are they saying - are they saying that blacks are genetically inferior intellectually ? Or are they saying that in the current cultural context they are inferior intellectually?

[Dos Equis]

So . . . spin this . . .

Nobel-winning biologist apologizes for remarks about blacks     

LONDON, England (CNN) -- Nobel laureate biologist Jim Watson apologized "unreservedly" Thursday for stating that black people were not as intelligent as whites, saying he was "mortified" by the comments attributed to him.

Jim Watson won the 1962 Nobel Prize for his part in discovering the structure of DNA.

"I cannot understand how I could have said what I am quoted as having said," Watson said during an appearance at the Royal Society in London.

"I can certainly understand why people, reading those words, have reacted in the ways that they have."

"To all those who have drawn the inference from my words that Africa, as a continent, is somehow genetically inferior, I can only apologize unreservedly. That is not what I meant. More importantly from my point of view, there is no scientific basis for such a belief," he said.

. . .

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/10/18/nobel.apology/index.html

[Al Doggity]

Science, knowledge and understanding.
Note one of the guys key remarks revolves around treating the africans as if they have the intelligence of the westerners.

Of course the members of getbig are more intelligent than this nobel prize (even the black ones!).

They should really consider some of the getbig crue during the next nobel nominations.

This was the purpose of my asking this question. None of these objectives will be accomplished
with studies
in this area and a definitive answer could never be reached. Just anecdotally, it's apparent that there are many blacks who are smarter than many whites.


Even in the example you cited, scientific data  confirming a lower iq among Africans wouldn't really have a practical application.


And I don't see how you've come to the conclusion that the guy's credentials are "impeccable". Just reading that article, it looks like he's a guy who has some pretty wacky opinions and thinks
his
accomplishments give those opinions undeserved credence. Did you read his comment about melanin and sex drive? Why doesn't this apply to middle easterners, who are often just as swarthy as latinos?