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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: loco on February 06, 2013, 10:48:39 AM
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Matthew 1:21
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”
Matthew 26:28
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
John 10:11
I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
John 11:50-52
50 You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”
51 He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation,
52 and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one.
Romans 4:25
He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
1 Corinthians 15:3
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
1 Thessalonians 5:9-10
9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.
1 John 4:10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
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Acts 4:12
Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.
Acts 20:28
Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.
1 Peter 2:24
who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.
John 14:6-8
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
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Guy. Do you think copy pasting the same stuff over and over again is suddenly going to make it true or make anyone believe in what you believe? We already debated a thousand times and crushed your copy pasting of verses. Jesus is not God.
Every single one of the verses was already tackled, what makes you think you are bringing anything new to the table? For every verse you post there is an opposing or contradicting verse in the bible either in the old or new testament.
Each time the verses were done for, you moved onto other verses, suddenly you think people forget and its okay to copy paste it all over again lol. Feel free, but you're not convincing anyone with that :)
Kind of how long ago you registered and started posting in this section the 'we, our' etc... and when it was shown you were even ignorant of it's true meaning, you went onto other verses, ad nauseum.
9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.
lol oh Paul... so whether we are awake or asleep we may live together with him? What?
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Jesus is not God.
Not the topic of this thread. There is already another thread for that:
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=448596.0
Please do not spam and derail my thread!
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I'm not derailing. You're just not making much sense as usual, I'm unconvinced. Starting a new thread will not make it suddenly true. You're recycling the same verses again and again and continently ignoring the ones that do not please you.
By the way Jesus was tempted by the devil. Why do you not talk about that incident a lot?
att 21:10-11 Who is this?" So the multitudes said, "This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth of Galilee."
Luke 7:16 “Then fear came upon all, and they glorified God, saying, "A great prophet has risen up among us"; and, "God has visited His people."
In Luke 24:19 Peter is recorded saying “And He said to them, "What things?" So they said to Him, "The things concerning Jesus of Nazareth, who was a Prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people,
John 6:14 “Then those men, when they had seen the sign that Jesus did, said, "This is truly the Prophet who is to come into the world."
Matt 14:5 “ they counted him as a prophet.”
Matt 21:46 “ they took Him for a prophet.”
Matt 13:57 Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his own country and in his own house."
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I'm not derailing. You're just not making much sense as usual, I'm unconvinced. Starting a new thread will not make it suddenly true. You're recycling the same verses again and again and continently ignoring the ones that do not please you.
Not the same verses, not the same topic. Obviously you have not even read what I have posted. ::)
You're unconvinced? Really? Okay. Moving on.
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Okay well I can copy paste verses too ya know
Matt 21:10-11
Who is this?" So the multitudes said, "This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth of Galilee."
Luke 7:16
“Then fear came upon all, and they glorified God, saying, "A great prophet has risen up among us"; and, "God has visited His people."
In Luke 24:19
Peter is recorded saying “And He said to them, "What things?" So they said to Him, "The things concerning Jesus of Nazareth, who was a Prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people,
John 6:14
“Then those men, when they had seen the sign that Jesus did, said, "This is truly the Prophet who is to come into the world."
Matt 14:5
“ they counted him as a prophet.”
Matt 21:46
“ they took Him for a prophet.”
Matt 13:57
Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his own country and in his own house."
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By the way Jesus was tempted by the devil. Why do you not talk about that incident a lot?
Why not die for the devil who is all sin? To save the devil from sin? I'm just being comical but lets take an ACTUAL look at the story and see how it does not fit in your trinity story what so ever.
THIS though is quite perplexing to your trinity story.
Matthew 4:1-11
4 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted[a] by the devil. 2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”
4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.”
5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:
“‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’[c]”
7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’[d]”
8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”
10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’[e]”
11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.
This quite clearly illustrates what 'son of God' is. Not God at all.
Hardcore trinitarian christians rarely talk about other verses of the bible but focus on picking the same missionary style repeatable verses that dazzle the ignorant who never opened a bible for themselves.
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it does not fit in your trinity story what so ever.
Not the topic of this thread. There is already another thread for that:
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=448596.0
Please do not spam and derail my thread!
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So you failed three topics from many different angles? What makes you think you will succeed in this one?
Jesus was tempted by the devil. This I find very interesting. Jesus was offered the whole world? Isn't that just fascinating? Or being asked to commit suicide by the devil and that if he is truly the son of God (God's messenger) that God would save him anyway?
Doesn't that just sound very very interesting. Instead Jesus quotes do not tempt God by doing stupid things and then saying God will save you anyway if you do a stupid thing such as killing yourself. Instead Jesus chose faith in God and disobeys the devil despite the suffering he endures as a prophet of God as many have from their own people as we know in the past.
Jesus is stopping himself from sinning. That's how he as a prophet instructs us all. To SAVE yourself from sin by avoiding it.
You're instead heedlessly falling for the devil's tricks. Instead you proclaim in believing something totally unjust and non-sensical. A single human being who 'happens' to be 'god' lets himself die (commits suicide) supposedly on a cross and as a result apparently saves all mankind and gives them 'salvation' by commiting suicide on a cross.
Wait what?
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Moving on...
John 8:24
I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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hahahahahahaahahah loco in his own world.
Sooo Jesus (peace be upon him) was asked to commit suicide by the devil if he is truly of God that he would be saved by God. Instead Jesus said don't tempt God (as many ppl in the past have, many verses to post on that). Jesus refused to commit suicide (die)!
Also offered the world if he were to give up what he's doing, but instead chose to continue God's work.
Imagine.. lol.. if Jesus was 'god', and he is being asked, tempted and offered by his OWN creation (the devil) the world (that he created).
Hilarious.
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John 7:30
At this they tried to seize him, but no one laid a hand on him, because his hour had not yet come.
John 8:20
He spoke these words while teaching in the temple courts near the place where the offerings were put. Yet no one seized him, because his hour had not yet come.
John 10:17-18
17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again.
18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.
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I sense a pattern here - Loco pastes random verses, Ahmed questions them, Loco isn't able to defend his position, so he goes "moving on..." and pastes even more meaningless verses lol. Very productive thread by loco ::)
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Re: the topic of the thread, my questions are:
1) If Jesus really did sacrifice himself for our sins, why do we have to believe that he died for our sins in order to actually be forgiven? There's really no sacrifice in that. I'll die for your sins so that you may be forgiven but if you don't believe that I'm dying for your sins you won't be forgiven. ::)
2) Why does God almighty need to sacrifice someone (or himself) in order to forgive us? If God wants to forgive our sins he can do it without any sacrifice. Which entity created this mysterious law that God can not forgive us unless one is sacrificed for our sins?
For these reasons "dying for our sins" makes absolutely no sense to me.
Before loco tries to reply, I'll save his typing and post what he will say lol:
Moving on...
Matthew 1:21
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”
Matthew 26:28
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
John 10:11
I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
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I sense a pattern here - Loco pastes random verses, Ahmed questions them, Loco isn't able to defend his position, so he goes "moving on..." and pastes even more meaningless verses lol. Very productive thread by loco ::)
Neither you nor ahmed has addressed a single verse that I have posted in this thread. All ahmed has done is spam and try to derail my thread. ::)
Let me know when you are ready to have a real discussion.
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Neither you nor ahmed has addressed a single verse that I have posted in this thread. All ahmed has done is spam and try to derail my thread. ::)
Let me know when you are ready to have a real discussion.
tbh I didn't even read your quotes and don't feel any motivation to either, because as usual you spam a bunch of verses and don't offer any explanation of them. I did however, reply with my thoughts based on the topic of the thread itself.
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Re: the topic of the thread, my questions are:
1) If Jesus really did sacrifice himself for our sins, why do we have to believe that he died for our sins in order to actually be forgiven? There's really no sacrifice in that. I'll die for your sins so that you may be forgiven but if you don't believe that I'm dying for your sins you won't be forgiven. ::)
2) Why does God almighty need to sacrifice someone (or himself) in order to forgive us? If God wants to forgive our sins he can do it without any sacrifice. Which entity created this mysterious law that God can not forgive us unless one is sacrificed for our sins?
For these reasons "dying for our sins" makes absolutely no sense to me.
Before loco tries to reply, I'll save his typing and post what he will say lol:
Moving on...
Matthew 1:21
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”
Matthew 26:28
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
John 10:11
I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
You seem to have a problem not with what I believe, but rather with what the Bible says.
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I sense a pattern here - Loco pastes random verses, Ahmed questions them, Loco isn't able to defend his position, so he goes "moving on..." and pastes even more meaningless verses lol. Very productive thread by loco ::)
Pretty arrogant to assume that the posted verses are for you and ahmed. More than you and ahmed read this board.
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I didn't even read your quotes and don't feel any motivation to either
::)
Then why are you even here?
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I sense a pattern here - Loco pastes random verses, Ahmed questions them, Loco isn't able to defend his position, so he goes "moving on..." and pastes even more meaningless verses lol. Very productive thread by loco ::)
I know maybe we should help him lol, it might convince us by copy pasting it for him lol.
Moving on...
Matthew 1:21
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”
Matthew 26:28
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
John 10:11
I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
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Pretty arrogant to assume that the posted verses are for you and ahmed. More than you and ahmed read this board.
Exactly! :)
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You seem to have a problem not with what I believe, but rather with what the Bible says.
Biggest IRONY of them all.
You seem to copy paste ONLY the verses that SUIT you and what you are trying to preach and absolutely never dwell on the verses that totally oppose what you believe and are preaching. Selective 'truth' or rather not truth at all.
Case in point the verses about Jesus confirming he is a human being .. oh i know "jesus is god and man at the same time" says your wishful thinking.
And the many verses that point out Jesus was a prophet, and a rabbi, and so on. Confirmed by others and himself. Unlike your elusive loose few that supposedly allure to Jesus supposedly being 'god'.
Or how about the little devil story that I posted? Why waste time on verses that prove Jesus is not God right?
And as if that's not bad enough you copy paste the same stuf over and over again.
Moving on...
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I know maybe we should help him lol, it might convince us by copy pasting it for him lol.
Moving on...
Matthew 1:21
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”
Matthew 26:28
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
John 10:11
I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
Thank you! Next time, will you please bold the book, chapter and verse for me too. ;D
I see many posts here from both a_ahmed and bigbobs, but not a single one addresses not even one Bible verse that I have posted in this thread. ::)
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Biggest IRONY of them all.
You seem to copy paste ONLY the verses that SUIT you and what you are trying to preach and absolutely never dwell on the verses that totally oppose what you believe and are preaching. Selective 'truth' or rather not truth at all.
Case in point the verses about Jesus confirming he is a human being .. oh i know "jesus is god and man at the same time" says your wishful thinking.
And the many verses that point out Jesus was a prophet, and a rabbi, and so on. Confirmed by others and himself. Unlike your elusive loose few that supposedly allure to Jesus supposedly being 'god'.
Or how about the little devil story that I posted? Why waste time on verses that prove Jesus is not God right?
And as if that's not bad enough you copy paste the same stuf over and over again.
Moving on...
Not the topic of this thread. There is already another thread for that:
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=448596.0
Please do not spam and derail my thread!
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But Jesus refused to die. It's on topic. When he was tempted by the devil to kill himself and jump off a cliff and the devil told him if you are truly the son of God, God will save you. Jesus said do not tempt the devil.
So?
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But Jesus refused to die. It's on topic. When he was tempted by the devil to kill himself and jump off a cliff and the devil told him if you are truly the son of God, God will save you. Jesus said do not tempt the devil.
So?
Loco is not able to respond to arguments, he is only able to paste verses in the faint hope that they somehow convince us of his beliefs despite not being able to answer our questions regarding them.
This picture sums him up ;)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-jP2CG_ZpxJA/T5m-b05o72I/AAAAAAAAPhs/SMvCehhMcW8/s1600/brokenrecord.jpg)
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But Jesus refused to die. It's on topic. When he was tempted by the devil to kill himself and jump off a cliff and the devil told him if you are truly the son of God, God will save you. Jesus said do not tempt the devil.
So?
Actually Jesus told Satan, "You must not test the Lord your God."
So?
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Pretty arrogant to assume that the posted verses are for you and ahmed. More than you and ahmed read this board.
I don't think I'm being arrogant at all. I can say loco is being arrogant for not responding to any of our questions that are on-topic.
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Actually Jesus told Satan, "You must not test the Lord your God."
So?
Okay so on topic here, Jesus is asked to commit suicide and he refuses to die.
Are you trying to imply that Jesus responding is saying he is Lord your God?
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I don't think I'm being arrogant at all. I can say loco is being arrogant for not responding to any of our questions that are on-topic.
Add context to the verses and that's deemed "just our interpretation". Post verses alone and it's not sufficient because their isn't any additional context. Post the comments of Christians theologians it's ignored or scoffed at. Simply leave your own comments with no verses and we're making up words because there are no verses included. If you post a single verse or two their isn't enough context so the entire chapter is required. If you post the entire chapter it's deemed too much to read and is ignored. Cite a book for reference from an accredited theologian and that gets, "so I need a book to answer my single question?" Point is, there isn't a sufficient answer for you or ahmed...no amount of explanation, context, scripture, experience, external reference, online reference, etc....will suffice. You'll object to this statement as well saying, "it isn't true that nothing will suffice," which validates that nothing is sufficient LOL. I've written small essays on this board answering a myriad of questions and objections (ahmed's primarily)....nothing is sufficient. Keep in mind that the claim of insufficiency doesn't invalidate a word I've written....this statement will probably get the ole "that goes both ways though". Difference is, I don't attack Islam (and disagreeing is different than attacking). I don't need Islam discredited to validate Christianity.
It's really not my problem anymore.
I basically ignore ahmed for the most part now unless he completely misrepresents Christians...then I respond.
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Okay so on topic here, Jesus is asked to commit suicide and he refuses to die.
Are you trying to imply that Jesus responding is saying he is Lord your God?
Jesus came to die on Calvary's cross....Satan doesn't dictate the terms.
Certainly, no one else is being tempted other than Jesus.
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lol "yep"
I guess that's how I should respond to your post.
Sorry but the whole Jesus vs devil event pretty much crumbles your story.
Why is supposedly 'god' being tempted in the first place? Can't God make sound decisions, why does the devil even tempt him? "Dictating" terms ey?
You didn't answer my direct question?
Are you saying that in that verse Jesus is responding stating he is "Lord your God"
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lol "yep"
I guess that's how I should respond to your post.
Sorry but the whole Jesus vs devil event pretty much crumbles your story.
Why is supposedly 'god' being tempted in the first place? Can't God make sound decisions, why does the devil even tempt him? "Dictating" terms ey?
You didn't answer my direct question?
Are you saying that in that verse Jesus is responding stating he is "Lord your God"
"crumbles your story"....well, ok.
God is the God of all creation and everything in it.....every bit of creation is subject to his divine law and power.
How bout this ahmed? I no longer want to engage, debate or respond to you....I really, truly do not. I know what you're about, you know what I'm about.....so that's it. So, I won't respond to you and you don't respond to me. Just ignore my posts and I'll ignore yours. If you wanna claim "I beat MOS" I'm at complete peace with that.
So, respond once more to this and we're done, ok? I won't reply back.
God bless.
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So in face of verses that contradict the trinity and all that you preach. You either "moving on..." or it's not okay as above and you won't debate any further and you know what im about and what you're about etc...?
You still didn't respond to my question, and I know why because I am 'trapping' you again where I'll post the numerous verses from the old testament that Jesus is in fact basically referencing to (to help you and others out, he is not stating he is God).
If it were the truth and you were after the truth you wouldn't feel trapped in the first place.
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Add context to the verses and that's deemed "just our interpretation". Post verses alone and it's not sufficient because their isn't any additional context. Post the comments of Christians theologians it's ignored or scoffed at. Simply leave your own comments with no verses and we're making up words because there are no verses included. If you post a single verse or two their isn't enough context so the entire chapter is required. If you post the entire chapter it's deemed too much to read and is ignored. Cite a book for reference from an accredited theologian and that gets, "so I need a book to answer my single question?" Point is, there isn't a sufficient answer for you or ahmed...no amount of explanation, context, scripture, experience, external reference, online reference, etc....will suffice. You'll object to this statement as well saying, "it isn't true that nothing will suffice," which validates that nothing is sufficient LOL. I've written small essays on this board answering a myriad of questions and objections (ahmed's primarily)....nothing is sufficient. Keep in mind that the claim of insufficiency doesn't invalidate a word I've written....this statement will probably get the ole "that goes both ways though". Difference is, I don't attack Islam (and disagreeing is different than attacking). I don't need Islam discredited to validate Christianity.
It's really not my problem anymore.
I basically ignore ahmed for the most part now unless he completely misrepresents Christians...then I respond.
I don't attack Christianity. My beliefs regarding Jesus are actually pretty much in accordance with Unitarian Christianity. I question and debate Trinitiarian Christianity but that does not mean I'm attacking it.
My accusation that loco copy-and-pastes without providing any explanation and without attempting to answer my questions is soley towards loco and not you. He's done this countless times. He posts what he likes, does not tell us his interpretation of verses he pastes even when we question it, and he doesn't respond to any of my or Ahmed's questions and instead accuses us of being off-topic, even though we are on topic. Therefore if anything he is the arrogant one here.
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You know the paradox of the title of the thread itself:
Jesus Christ came to die for, and thus save us from, our sins
Yet Christians are sinning every day, Muslims are sinning every day, all of mankind is sinning every day. So dying is not stopping anyone from sinning. What is the teaching here? Keep sinning and you are saved already?
Islam does not teach this at all. You are right. Through our understanding Jesus did not come to 'die' for you, but rather STOP you from sinning by teaching the children of Israel to whom he was sent to from being corrupted as they were corrupted! Are societies today less corrupted? No far more corrupted! That's why with no law of God, but man made laws, man is corrupting the earth that much more.
For example. How over night homosexuality is suddenly accepted and man made laws are passed to allow it, endorse it, etc... Even 'gay churches', controversial but reality. But of course they are not real christians. But when we go to what the bible EXACTLY states about homosexuality then it's taboo because then we are talking about 'the law'. Which Jesus himself practiced and did not deny. His early followers (Not catholics, not today's evangelical christians, etc...) followed and obeyed.
All this stuff just seizes to exist the moment we try to tackle the trinity because the trinity itself cannot be sustained by anything but these beliefs. That's why it always goes back to debating the trinity.
No one is attacking or denouncing Jesus. If anything we love Jesus and praise Jesus and respect Jesus far more than any general every day Christian. No. We are talking about the trinity and the false premises it entails. That's what's on the table from day one.
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But Jesus refused to die. It's on topic. When he was tempted by the devil to kill himself and jump off a cliff and the devil told him if you are truly the son of God, God will save you. Jesus said do not tempt the devil.
So?
I already answered you. First, Satan did not tell Jesus to "kill himself", but he told Jesus to put God to the test. Second, Jesus refused to do what Satan told him to do, and why wouldn't Jesus refuse to do anything Satan told him to do? Third, it wasn't Jesus' time to die either way. Jesus would die on his own accord and not when Satan told him to die, even though that wasn't what Satan told him to do.
John 7:30
At this they tried to seize him, but no one laid a hand on him, because his hour had not yet come.
John 8:20
He spoke these words while teaching in the temple courts near the place where the offerings were put. Yet no one seized him, because his hour had not yet come.
John 10:17-18
17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again.
18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.
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I don't think I'm being arrogant at all. I can say loco is being arrogant for not responding to any of our questions that are on-topic.
You have not asked any questions, least of all one "on-topic." And how could you?
I didn't even read your quotes and don't feel any motivation to either
::)
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You know the paradox of the title of the thread itself:
Jesus Christ came to die for, and thus save us from, our sins
Yet Christians are sinning every day, Muslims are sinning every day, all of mankind is sinning every day. So dying is not stopping anyone from sinning. What is the teaching here? Keep sinning and you are saved already?
Islam does not teach this at all. You are right. Through our understanding Jesus did not come to 'die' for you, but rather STOP you from sinning by teaching the children of Israel to whom he was sent to from being corrupted as they were corrupted! Are societies today less corrupted? No far more corrupted! That's why with no law of God, but man made laws, man is corrupting the earth that much more.
For example. How over night homosexuality is suddenly accepted and man made laws are passed to allow it, endorse it, etc... Even 'gay churches', controversial but reality. But of course they are not real christians. But when we go to what the bible EXACTLY states about homosexuality then it's taboo because then we are talking about 'the law'. Which Jesus himself practiced and did not deny. His early followers (Not catholics, not today's evangelical christians, etc...) followed and obeyed.
All this stuff just seizes to exist the moment we try to tackle the trinity because the trinity itself cannot be sustained by anything but these beliefs. That's why it always goes back to debating the trinity.
No one is attacking or denouncing Jesus. If anything we love Jesus and praise Jesus and respect Jesus far more than any general every day Christian. No. We are talking about the trinity and the false premises it entails. That's what's on the table from day one.
I like this post, a_ahmed! I'd like to respond to it, and I will later. Got to run now. Peace be unto you!
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You have not asked any questions, least of all one "on-topic." And how could you?
::)
Why the rolley eye? I did not read the numerous quotes. I did however read the thread title and posted a response to it including questions which it appears you would rather not address:
Re: the topic of the thread, my questions are:
1) If Jesus really did sacrifice himself for our sins, why do we have to believe that he died for our sins in order to actually be forgiven? There's really no sacrifice in that. I'll die for your sins so that you may be forgiven but if you don't believe that I'm dying for your sins you won't be forgiven. ::)
2) Why does God almighty need to sacrifice someone (or himself) in order to forgive us? If God wants to forgive our sins he can do it without any sacrifice. Which entity created this mysterious law that God can not forgive us unless one is sacrificed for our sins?
For these reasons "dying for our sins" makes absolutely no sense to me.
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all well and good but I did not ask him to do this
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You know the paradox of the title of the thread itself:
Jesus Christ came to die for, and thus save us from, our sins
Yet Christians are sinning every day, Muslims are sinning every day, all of mankind is sinning every day. So dying is not stopping anyone from sinning. What is the teaching here? Keep sinning and you are saved already?
a_ahmed, the Bible teaches neither that Jesus' sacrifice automatically stops us from ever sinning again, nor does it teach Christians that we can continue habitually sinning at will because we are already saved.
Jesus died for our sins so that we can be forgiven our sins and go to Heaven to be with God. But first, says the Bible, we must genuinely repent of our sins and accept Jesus Christ as our Savior and Lord. Accepting Jesus as Lord means we must obey Jesus and follow his commandments, which are summarized in loving God and loving one another.
You are right, Christians still sin though we no longer want to sin. The flesh, the world and Satan are still with us and around us. Jesus said in Mark 14:38 "Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.” But it goes both ways: Christians also work hard to avoid sin and also do a lot of good works and help a lot of people. Why would Christians do all these good things when they believe that their salvation is already secured?
People who believe that Jesus died for our sins, that Jesus is our Lord, and who genuinely repent of our sins, don't want to sin again. We want to gradually become more like Jesus, speak as he did, act as he did, sin not, love God, love others, share his Gospel with others, help the needy, etc. We want to follow God's law, not to earn our salvation since we are already certain that we have it through Jesus, but because we want to be more and more like Jesus.
Romans 6:15
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means!
1 John 2:1-3
1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.
2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
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lol no one has to die for God to forgive you. God has forgiven in the past without any 'sacrifice' (even if we were to talk about that).
This is just ludicrous human sacrifice and plain and simple unjust contrary to any human justice much less Godly justice.
Sorry but you're just repeating yourself.
God can forigve and has forgiven without someone being 'killed' much less supposedly 'god' committing suicide. That's just ludicrous and blasphemous at best.
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A few bits from the bible:
5 Finally, I confessed all my sins to you
and stopped trying to hide my guilt.
I said to myself, “I will confess my rebellion to the LORD.”
And you forgave me! All my guilt is gone.
6 Therefore, let all the godly pray to you while there is still time,
Psalm 32
Just like Islam teaches, there is always time as long as you are alive, repent, ask for God's forgiveness and He will forgive you :)
Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways," says the Lord GOD. "Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin."
Ezek 18:30
Also like in Islam everyone will be judged accordingly to their ways and what they did.
17 “Now, our God, hear the prayers and petitions of your servant. For your sake, O Lord, look with favor on your desolate sanctuary. 18 Give ear, O God, and hear; open your eyes and see the desolation of the city that bears your Name. We do not make requests of you because we are righteous, but because of your great mercy. 19 O Lord, listen! O Lord, forgive! O Lord, hear and act! For your sake, O my God, do not delay, because your city and your people bear your Name.”
Isaiah 1:18-20
God forgives sins just like how we supplicate various sincere supplications to God as Muslims
18 “Come now, let us reason together,” says the Lord.
“Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.
19 If you are willing and obedient,
you will eat the best from the land;
20 but if you resist and rebel,
you will be devoured by the sword.”
What do you have to do to be forgiven?
2 chronicles 7
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If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 15Now my eyes will be open and my ears attentive to the prayers offered in this place. 16I have chosen and consecrated this temple so that my Name may be there forever. My eyes and my heart will always be there.
Psalms 25
Look David praying for forgiveness and God hearing his prayer and forgiving him.
Imagine that, no one was killed or sacrificed or suicided for it.
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Then David confessed to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." Nathan replied, "Yes, but the LORD has forgiven you, and you won't die for this sin.
2 Samuel 12:13
Imagine that. BOOOOOOOOOM no one has to die and God has forgiven you. WAAAAAAAABAAAAAAAAM
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Here's a bit of qur'an on forgiveness :)
Surah Al-Qasas
15. And he entered the city at a time of carelessness of its folk, and he found therein two men fighting, one of his own caste, and the other of his enemies; and he who was of his caste asked him for help against him who was of his enemies. So Moses struck him with his fist and killed him. He said: This is of the devil's doing. Lo! he is an enemy, a mere misleader.
16. He said: My Lord! Lo! I have wronged my soul, so forgive me. Then He forgave him. Lo! He is the Forgiving, the Merciful.
David peace be upon him was forgiven for making a mistake in ruling or judging
Surah saad
(David) said: He hath wronged thee in demanding thine ewe in addition to his ewes, and lo! many partners oppress one another, save such as believe and do good works, and they are few. And David guessed that We had tried him, and he sought forgiveness of his Lord, and he bowed himself and fell down prostrate and repented.
25. So We forgave him that; and lo! he had access to Our presence and a happy journey's end.
Prophet Jonah peace be upon him was saved from the belly of the fish after he repented to God inside the fish
Surah al anbiya
87. And (mention) Dhu'n-Nun, when he went off in anger and deemed that We had no power over him, but he cried out in the darkness, saying: There is no God save Thee. Be Thou glorified! Lo! I have been a wrong-doer.
88. Then we heard his prayer and saved him from the anguish. Thus we save believers.
Adam was forgiven for eating from the tree
Surah Baqara
36.* But Satan caused them to deflect therefrom and expelled them from the (happy) state in which they were; and We said: Fall down, one of you a foe unto the other! There shall be for you on earth a habitation and provision for a time.
37.* Then Adam received from his Lord words (of revelation), and He relented toward him. Lo! He is the relenting, the Merciful.
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One of the names of Allah is Al-Ghafur THE FORGIVING!
You have NO IDEA how many verses there are on mercy, forgiveness, peace, etc... in the qur'an and even sayings of the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in hadith. Supplications, events, etc... I could go on and on and on about the beauty of Islam and God's mercy.
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Sincere repentance is key, not human sacrifice.
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Mark 2:5-12
5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”
6 Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves,
7 “Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”
8 Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, “Why are you thinking these things?
9 Which is easier: to say to this paralyzed man, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, take your mat and walk’?
10 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the man,
11 “I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.”
12 He got up, took his mat and walked out in full view of them all. This amazed everyone and they praised God, saying, “We have never seen anything like this!”
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So we're changing the subject now? I proved to you from the bible that no one has to die for God to forgive sins. Case closed. Your premise was untrue/false, you just repeated things Paul said such as the wages of sin is death, etc... etc... Not the word of God, or prophets/messengers, just an invented lie. God forgives if you sincerely repent and seek his forgiveness. All I illustrated through my quotations of the qur'an and the supplications of Muslims is how merciful God is. He doesn't need anything from any of us especially innoscent human sacrifice.
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So we're changing the subject now? I proved to you from the bible that no one has to die for God to forgive sins. Case closed. Your premise was untrue/false, you just repeated things Paul said such as the wages of sin is death, etc... etc... Not the word of God, or prophets/messengers, just an invented lie. God forgives if you sincerely repent and seek his forgiveness. All I illustrated through my quotations of the qur'an and the supplications of Muslims is how merciful God is. He doesn't need anything from any of us especially innoscent human sacrifice.
You are the one who posted that only Allah can forgive sins. Jesus can and does forgive sins, and he said so himself.
When did I repeat things Paul said about the wages of sin? I quoted the Gospels, the apostles and Jesus himself. Jesus said that he came to die for our sins.
Matthew 1:21
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”
Matthew 26:28
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
John 10:11
I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
John 11:50-52
50 You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”
51 He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation,
52 and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one.
1 John 4:10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
Acts 4:12
Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.
Acts 20:28
Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.
1 Peter 2:24
who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.
John 14:6-8
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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Bro are you blind or just ...?
Did you see all the verses I posted about God forgiving without anyone dying or sacrifice.
Your point was proven false. Next.
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Bro are you blind or just ...?
Did you see all the verses I posted about God forgiving without anyone dying or sacrifice.
Your point was proven false. Next.
Then you have to ask yourself, why then would Jesus clearly say over and over that he came to die for our sins and to save us?
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Why does supposedly "Jesus" contradict himself over and over again. Or rather why do the authors of the new testament contradict themselves over and over again?
You were shown the opposite now you've got nothing your point is mute. The same has happened on every other point you've attempted to prove. I've used the bible and the bible alone to prove you wrong.
According to the bible no one has to die for God to forgive sins which was the premise of your argument.
Paul is the one that said wages of sin is death NOT Jesus. Jesus (pbuh) said many things. Bottom line he came to SAVE the children of Israel from their wicked ways, disobedience and corruption by telling them to abstain from sins and corruption. But they were and are haughty and disobidient.
Otherwise if we take your point of view then people are gonna remain corrupted as they are today and they are 'saved' (???) by continuing to be corrupted. It makes no sense, impractical, lie, non beneficial, deception, etc...
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Why does supposedly "Jesus" contradict himself over and over again. Or rather why do the authors of the new testament contradict themselves over and over again?
You were shown the opposite now you've got nothing your point is mute. The same has happened on every other point you've attempted to prove. I've used the bible and the bible alone to prove you wrong.
According to the bible no one has to die for God to forgive sins which was the premise of your argument.
Paul is the one that said wages of sin is death NOT Jesus. Jesus (pbuh) said many things. Bottom line he came to SAVE the children of Israel from their wicked ways, disobedience and corruption by telling them to abstain from sins and corruption. But they were and are haughty and disobidient.
Otherwise if we take your point of view then people are gonna remain corrupted as they are today and they are 'saved' (???) by continuing to be corrupted. It makes no sense, impractical, lie, non beneficial, deception, etc...
What are you talking about? Jesus did not contradict himself. Please quote Jesus from the Bible saying that he did not come to die for our sins and to save us.
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No Jesus certainly wouldn't contradict himself but the authors of the bible do all the time and especially Paul... so as in the other topics you've proven to me nothing except repeat what you explicitly believe. You only use and concentrate on verses that allegedly prove your point yet all the other verses, stories, events, etc... which contradict what you say or believe you don't give much attention to.
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No Jesus certainly wouldn't contradict himself but the authors of the bible do all the time and especially Paul... so as in the other topics you've proven to me nothing except repeat what you explicitly believe. You only use and concentrate on verses that allegedly prove your point yet all the other verses, stories, events, etc... which contradict what you say or believe you don't give much attention to.
Why do you keep bringing Paul into this? It is Jesus who is quoted in the Bible saying over and over again that he came to die for our sins, that he came to save us. Are you saying that every single one of the many times that Jesus is quoted saying that he came to die for our sins is not really Jesus saying that? Why? Because it disagrees with your religion? ::)
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No because your premise of the thread was proven wrong by verses in the bible which is a few pages backwards. Not 'my religion' or 'my verses' but verses from the bible which simply and eloquently demonstrate the point no one has to do or be sacrificed for God to forgive anything.
Anyways you're making moot points now :) I am a bit busy at work otherwise I'd post away again but it's like throwing stuff at a brick wall that does not hear or see.
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No because your premise of the thread was proven wrong by verses in the bible which is a few pages backwards. Not 'my religion' or 'my verses' but verses from the bible which simply and eloquently demonstrate the point no one has to do or be sacrificed for God to forgive anything.
Anyways you're making moot points now :) I am a bit busy at work otherwise I'd post away again but it's like throwing stuff at a brick wall that does not hear or see.
ahmed, you're akin to a young atheist first being exposed to old anti-Christian arguments. To you the objections are fresh and exciting and you love to debate these points, but the reality is every objection you've ever raised on this board.....every single one.....is completely outmoded and has already been fully refuted time and time again. These old objections arise with virtually every generation and every generation lives to debate them as though they've stumbled onto something new, but the objections have long since been resolved. In fact, every objection is a mere google away from being fully answered and reconciled again and again and again. I can refer you to website after website, but I can also give you book after book you can also refer to for answers on "difficult bible issues". Sure, once in a awhile someone like Bart Ehrman will write "Misquoting Jesus" and expose the general the public to topics they aren't familiar with such as textual criticism. Then you have Daniel Wallace write "Reinventing Jesus" and Ehrman's mentor Bruce Metzger (who stood completely opposed to his protege Ehrman) completely and convincingly refute everything Ehrman presented. Truth doesn't need to hide, but sometimes the shroud of darkness needs to be lifted from it so others can recognize it clearly. You're a smart guy, you truly are, but I'm sorry to say ABSOLUTELY nothing you're presenting is fresh or unrefutable....it's just new to you....that's it bro.
I could answer you objections all day long (heck, I already have time and again LOL), but what's the point of me answering or pointing you to the answers of generations before us that are far more complete and eloquent. You'll just dismiss all of it or twist it to your own end...there's no point anymore in sharing honestly with you....."throwing my pearls to pigs".
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Atheist new to old anti christian what? Interesting MOS. It's amusing how you try in different ways to discredit me for ever being a Christian by saying Catholics are not really Christians, then you didn't expect to find out I was also a member of united church of canada which is the protestant church. So now you're classifying me with atheists. Good for you.
I quoted the bible on verses which speak about God forgiving people without any sacrifice or people being killed.
Then how about you guys throw out all the verses that don't go with your views? Besides the bible is an accumulation of books, letters and different versions include or exclude certain books (protestant bible vs catholic bible vs even ethiopian bible), then there's the apocrypha. It's not one narrative from the same author. Hence the divirgences.
It seems you love to copy paste the exact same verses both of you all the time over and over again as if that suddenly makes it legitimate. And the few select verses is what you will ever ever focus on. I notice this pattern with all Christians who try to defend these specific doctrines using elusive or specific verses but totally ignoring all the other stories, events, verses which oppose these beliefs.
Or you will conjure up totally magical explanations for the verses that contradict your views. For example Jesus not knowing things and saying only God knows them, or Jesus being powerless and all power stemming from God alone, etc... as.. oh God was trying to be humble or God was trying to act in his human state, or God gave up his powers while in his human state, etc... Your OWN conjectures and explanations NOT divine at all.
Come on now... it's just silly. You're not out to find or speak the truth, you're out to justify yourselves and what you believe. I took the time to seek the truth out, that's why I said I strongly believed in God it did not falter my faith, but instead strengthened it, but instead of accepting man made lies, I kept searching. I am well aware of all these verses that's why over and over again I bring you the verses you DON'T bring to the discussion as they are from the bible and speak a different belief than what you believe.
Likewise with calling Jesus God. You DESPERATELY post a few skewed alluring verses. YET... we will find HUNDREDS of explicit verses which showcase Jesus being just a prophet, just a messenger, just a human being who is frail and dependant. Instead you focus hundreds of pages of threads on those few ellusive verses and copy paste them, bold them, yet all the other verses.. oh it's just there. It 'speaks' about "god's" human state, the Jesus that is very human, very god all in one.
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“By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.” (John 5:30)
“Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been GIVEN to me.” (Mathew 28:18)
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“By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.” (John 5:30)
“Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been GIVEN to me.” (Mathew 28:18)
Why do you keep on trying to derail and spam my thread. Jesus clearly said many times that he came to die for our sins and to save us. I thought you respected Jesus. Are you calling Jesus a liar and a false prophet or what?
Matthew 26:28
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
John 10:11
I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
John 14:6-8
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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So you loudly and proudly ignore the verses that disprove what you're trying to prove or contradict what you're preaching. Fantastic. Point proven.
No one ever called Jesus (peace be upon him) a liar, just what you're preaching as twisted lies, conjectures or forgeries. Paul though was a liar and a fraud I did say that. Jesus is free from what you ascribe to him.
You are using the same verses over and over again as if we're ignorant of them, they've been tackled with already many times why are you posting them again and again. I don't have to AGAIN go over them and show you how you're misrepresenting what's even being said.
You selectively pick specific verses and stick to those verses and never ever talk about the 'other' verses that don't suit you.
If we combine it with verses I posted, it illustrates a completely different picture of what Jesus was saying but if we DELIBERATELY ignore the verses I posted, you yourself conjure up what you want and misrepresent Jesus all together to justify what you're preaching and believing.
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"the devil will cite scripture to suit his own purpose"
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You know it's funny many many many years ago pretty much just about the time I became Muslim. This one televangelist tried to 'convert me back' started off with him 'knowing this nice egyptian christian family' I'm like okay.. I'm white I'm not Arab (cause he found out about me living in africa, etc... thought that would 'touch me') then started attacking me and preaching to me about Jesus. As if I didn't know about Jesus (peace be upon him). Also kept talking about "I'll debate any of your leaders, like your farakhan". I'm like WHO? LOL later I learned this was some "nation of islam" guy. Not even Muslim. So amusingly enough he started referencing things from the qur'an to prove to me Jesus is God.
He is like does the qur'an not speak of Jesus' miracles? That he healed the sick, gave sight to the blind, brought the dead to life, etc... I am like yeah these miracles are mentioned. He's like HALELUYA, and then how can you not accept the son of God?! JESZZZUUZZZ. He is a local televangelist real deal tv preacher the stereotypical type too. Very excitable about what he believes too.
Like a nut he kept quoting the exact same style of selective verses from the NT that loco is. Never ever bringing up or talking about or plain outright AVOIDING talking about the other verses, events, stories.
And he kept cutting me off before I could correct him. I was still a new muslim but man... I was like but the verses explain right after that he did it by the power of God. He for a second felt awe shocked and continued his verbage trying very hard to not give me a chance to even talk.
Ironically the bible says the same thing that Jesus did these things by the power manifested to him from God. By God's permission and by God's power not of his own.
Likewise with the verses above I posted. But... these people pick and chose the verses they want to CREATE a meaning so that they JUSTIFY their beliefs/doctrines not ascertain the truth in the matter.
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So you loudly and proudly ignore the verses that disprove what you're trying to prove or contradict what you're preaching. Fantastic. Point proven.
No one ever called Jesus (peace be upon him) a liar, just what you're preaching as twisted lies, conjectures or forgeries. Paul though was a liar and a fraud I did say that. Jesus is free from what you ascribe to him.
You are using the same verses over and over again as if we're ignorant of them, they've been tackled with already many times why are you posting them again and again. I don't have to AGAIN go over them and show you how you're misrepresenting what's even being said.
You selectively pick specific verses and stick to those verses and never ever talk about the 'other' verses that don't suit you.
If we combine it with verses I posted, it illustrates a completely different picture of what Jesus was saying but if we DELIBERATELY ignore the verses I posted, you yourself conjure up what you want and misrepresent Jesus all together to justify what you're preaching and believing.
You have not provided a single Bible verse where Jesus contradicts himself. Jesus said that he came do die for our sins and to save us. In which Bible verse did Jesus say the opposite?
You have not shown, not even once, how Christians are misinterpreting Jesus when he says that he came to die for our sins, that he is the only way to the father, that he came to save us, that whoever believes in him will have eternal life.
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You have not provided a single Bible verse where Jesus contradicts himself. Jesus said that he came do die for our sins and to save us. In which Bible verse did Jesus say the opposite?
You have not shown, not even once, how Christians are misinterpreting Jesus when he says that he came to die for our sins, that he is the only way to the father, that he came to save us, that whoever believes in him will have eternal life.
what about the people who came before jesus?
Do christians beleive they will be in hell?
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what about the people who came before jesus?
Do christians beleive they will be in hell?
Not all:
Genesis 15:6
Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.
Habakkuk 2:4
Behold, his soul is puffed up, it is not upright in him; but the righteous shall live by his faith.
Matthew 8:11
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 22:31-32
31 But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you,
32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”
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"the devil will cite scripture to suit his own purpose"
True, but Jesus Christ cited scripture all the time. Jesus rarely spoke without citing scripture.
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all well and good but I did not ask him to do this
That's okay. I did not ask Jesus to die for my sins either, but I am glad and very thankful that he did.
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lol
"No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of one another:" (Q 17:15)
Ezk 18:20 "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."
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lol
"No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of one another:" (Q 17:15)
Ezk 18:20 "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."
a_ahmed,
Since you brought up Paul and "the wages of sin", and since you quoted Ezekiel 18:20, please tell me:
Is there really any difference between these two verses? I don't believe so.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death
Ezekiel 18:20
The one who sins is the one who will die.
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Atheist new to old anti christian what? Interesting MOS. It's amusing how you try in different ways to discredit me for ever being a Christian by saying Catholics are not really Christians, then you didn't expect to find out I was also a member of united church of canada which is the protestant church. So now you're classifying me with atheists. Good for you.
I said you were akin to (not "affiliated with") new atheists in that you discover old anti-Christian arguments and objectives that you present as fresh and irrefutable evidence to back your position yet you don't realize those old objections have been long since been debunked/refuted and resolved.
I quoted the bible on verses which speak about God forgiving people without any sacrifice or people being killed.
So in doing so you believe you've "found a contradiction" or "refuted Jesus' act on the cross", correct?
What you've done is display examples of his grace and mercy.
In the OT God did forgive sins without immediate bloodshed. Christ also forgave sins without the immediate shedding of blood. He did so with the paralytic man...told him his sins are forgiven and to get up and walk. So from your seat Christ's death on Calvary's cross is meaningless, right? "Look, God can forgive sins without bloodshed! The cross was pointless!" God's forgiveness isn't for or about God, it's for and about you and me. The final act of atonement via blood shed was accomplished in one fail swoop with Christ's sacrifice, but if all sins were "just forgiven" without any afterthought or consideration on our part the forgiveness is meaningless. In all things God works within the confines of our lives in order to fulfill his will for our lives and draw us closer to him. Christ's sacrifice on the cross, our acknowledgment of that sacrifice, our acceptance of him as our God, Lord and Savior and our repentance of sin (changing our minds about sin and moving our lives away from those sinful acts is of the utmost importance). God desires for us to choose him and choose his will for our lives. As believers indwelt by the Holy Spirit we are guided and directed...he speaks to our souls loud and clear.
Colossians 2:6-13
6 And now, just as you accepted Christ Jesus as your Lord, you must continue to follow him. 7 Let your roots grow down into him, and let your lives be built on him. Then your faith will grow strong in the truth you were taught, and you will overflow with thankfulness.
8 Don’t let anyone capture you with empty philosophies and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the spiritual powers of this world, rather than from Christ. 9 For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body. 10 So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority.
11 When you came to Christ, you were “circumcised,” but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision—the cutting away of your sinful nature.12 For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead.
13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins.
Or you will conjure up totally magical explanations for the verses that contradict your views. For example Jesus not knowing things and saying only God knows them, or Jesus being powerless and all power stemming from God alone, etc... as.. oh God was trying to be humble or God was trying to act in his human state, or God gave up his powers while in his human state, etc... Your OWN conjectures and explanations NOT divine at all.
No, you resort to "magical explanation" retorts because you resent a cogent answer being given that resolves your "irrefutable dilemna"...that's just pride talking.
Likewise with calling Jesus God. You DESPERATELY post a few skewed alluring verses. YET... we will find HUNDREDS of explicit verses which showcase Jesus being just a prophet, just a messenger, just a human being who is frail and dependant. Instead you focus hundreds of pages of threads on those few ellusive verses and copy paste them, bold them, yet all the other verses.. oh it's just there. It 'speaks' about "god's" human state, the Jesus that is very human, very god all in one.
You cling to the verses in which others initially perceived Jesus as only prophet...this was simple ignorance on their part. That initial perception isn't all encompassing though....you force fit it as such. Christ certainly was prophetic in what he said on occassions, but he demonstrated and articulated that he was far more than that. Because of the lens of Islam you hold passionately to any reference concerning the the prophetic nature of Christ despite so many verses indicating how much, much more he was and what he demonstrated and articulated and how others articulated how much more he was.
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a_ahmed,
Since you brought up Paul and "the wages of sin", and since you quoted Ezekiel 18:20, please tell me:
Is there really any difference between these two verses? I don't believe so.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death
Ezekiel 18:20
The one who sins is the one who will die.
lol so sad. How you miss what's being said.
The verse indicates that the person who is the sinner its upon him, if he dies in that state no one else will be held accountable for it but himself the curse and all is upon him and not others. Kind of illutrating original sin to be false.
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Atheist new to old anti christian what? Interesting MOS. It's amusing how you try in different ways to discredit me for ever being a Christian by saying Catholics are not really Christians, then you didn't expect to find out I was also a member of united church of canada which is the protestant church. So now you're classifying me with atheists. Good for you.
I quoted the bible on verses which speak about God forgiving people without any sacrifice or people being killed.
Then how about you guys throw out all the verses that don't go with your views? Besides the bible is an accumulation of books, letters and different versions include or exclude certain books (protestant bible vs catholic bible vs even ethiopian bible), then there's the apocrypha. It's not one narrative from the same author. Hence the divirgences.
It seems you love to copy paste the exact same verses both of you all the time over and over again as if that suddenly makes it legitimate. And the few select verses is what you will ever ever focus on. I notice this pattern with all Christians who try to defend these specific doctrines using elusive or specific verses but totally ignoring all the other stories, events, verses which oppose these beliefs.
Or you will conjure up totally magical explanations for the verses that contradict your views. For example Jesus not knowing things and saying only God knows them, or Jesus being powerless and all power stemming from God alone, etc... as.. oh God was trying to be humble or God was trying to act in his human state, or God gave up his powers while in his human state, etc... Your OWN conjectures and explanations NOT divine at all.
Come on now... it's just silly. You're not out to find or speak the truth, you're out to justify yourselves and what you believe. I took the time to seek the truth out, that's why I said I strongly believed in God it did not falter my faith, but instead strengthened it, but instead of accepting man made lies, I kept searching. I am well aware of all these verses that's why over and over again I bring you the verses you DON'T bring to the discussion as they are from the bible and speak a different belief than what you believe.
Likewise with calling Jesus God. You DESPERATELY post a few skewed alluring verses. YET... we will find HUNDREDS of explicit verses which showcase Jesus being just a prophet, just a messenger, just a human being who is frail and dependant. Instead you focus hundreds of pages of threads on those few ellusive verses and copy paste them, bold them, yet all the other verses.. oh it's just there. It 'speaks' about "god's" human state, the Jesus that is very human, very god all in one.
Ahmed, you fucking stupid ignorant bullshitting lying Muslim bastard, I'm going to kill you and feed your filthy brown body to the hogs for your blatant lies and unforgivable blasphemy. INFIDEL!
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Oh MOS, stop being angry it's irrational. Ascertain the truth, don't defend your beliefs blindly.
Hebrew 5:7 he prayed and cried for GOD to hear him and give him mercy by saving him from death.
Now why would 'god' cry to god and have tears and ask for God's mercy to save him from death.
So Jesus cried to be saved from death!
John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
Over and over and over and over and over and OVER again Jesus illustrating that he is not God. Hundreds of verses upon hundreds of verses verses your petty 1, 2 elusive alluring so called alleged desperation verses.
You see my point is you guys selectively pick verses and misrepresent Jesus. You keep focusing on copy psating the same verses over and over again while avoiding a plethora of other verses which if taken together paint a WHOLE OTHER image which does not suit your beliefs and doctrine.
Points so far we can conclude based on the bible not what you wishfully want to sya:
1. No one has to die for God to forgive
2. God has forgiven and will forgive without anyone or anything being sacrificed.
3. No one is to be held accountable for what someone else did. Your evil and your sins are your own no one needs to 'suffer' for you but you will die upon it.
And we can go on.
The more and more doctrines you believe that we analyze the more we can ascertain in fact that you are misrepresenting Jesus by avoiding all thes other verses. All we're acomplishing by God's mercy thank God is proving exactly what i've tried to prove to you, that more and more we go over these things the more it proves Jesus is not God but a creation and servant of God. Unfortunately out of arrogance and pride you persist and refuse to accept this and keep repeating more of the same
I didn't become a Muslim from reading a few cliche lines from the bible. I became Muslim by reading the whole bible. That's how truth is ascertained, not by a few selective verses like you do. You delibereately ignore the verses I post as they change what you're trying to paint and put forward.
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Oh MOS, stop being angry it's irrational. Ascertain the truth, don't defend your beliefs blindly.
Hebrew 5:7 he prayed and cried for GOD to hear him and give him mercy by saving him from death.
Now why would 'god' cry to god and have tears and ask for God's mercy to save him from death.
So Jesus cried to be saved from death!
John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
Over and over and over and over and over and OVER again Jesus illustrating that he is not God. Hundreds of verses upon hundreds of verses verses your petty 1, 2 elusive alluring so called alleged desperation verses.
You see my point is you guys selectively pick verses and misrepresent Jesus. You keep focusing on copy psating the same verses over and over again while avoiding a plethora of other verses which if taken together paint a WHOLE OTHER image which does not suit your beliefs and doctrine.
Points so far we can conclude based on the bible not what you wishfully want to sya:
1. No one has to die for God to forgive
2. God has forgiven and will forgive without anyone or anything being sacrificed.
3. No one is to be held accountable for what someone else did. Your evil and your sins are your own no one needs to 'suffer' for you but you will die upon it.
And we can go on.
The more and more doctrines you believe that we analyze the more we can ascertain in fact that you are misrepresenting Jesus by avoiding all thes other verses. All we're acomplishing by God's mercy thank God is proving exactly what i've tried to prove to you, that more and more we go over these things the more it proves Jesus is not God but a creation and servant of God. Unfortunately out of arrogance and pride you persist and refuse to accept this and keep repeating more of the same
Shut the fuck up, Ahmed, you brazen terrorist pig. I know your posts are pure comedy gold but I'm afraid you'll waste MOS's precious time if he actually bothers responding to your ignorant infantile ramblings. He's speaking the truth Ahmed but you're too stupid and deluded to grasp what he's saying so you continue to waste his time and energy by posting idiotic and irrelevant rubbish and so on and on the cycle goes of Christians speaking truth and Muslims failing to understand and then responding with garbage.
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Shut the fuck up, Ahmed, you brazen terrorist pig. I know your posts are pure comedy gold but I'm afraid you'll waste MOS's precious time if he actually bothers responding to your ignorant infantile ramblings. He's speaking the truth Ahmed but you're too stupid and deluded to grasp what he's saying so you continue to waste his time and energy by posting idiotic and irrelevant rubbish and so on and on the cycle goes of Christians speaking truth and Muslims failing to understand and then responding with garbage.
why, I do believe there are tangles of pubic hair caught between your teeth, Mr Harridan.
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why, I do believe there are tangles of pubic hair caught between your teeth, Mr Harridan.
You shut your piehole and don't be discourteous to me.
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Oh MOS, stop being angry it's irrational. Ascertain the truth, don't defend your beliefs blindly.
Hebrew 5:7 he prayed and cried for GOD to hear him and give him mercy by saving him from death.
Now why would 'god' cry to god and have tears and ask for God's mercy to save him from death.
So Jesus cried to be saved from death!
John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
Over and over and over and over and over and OVER again Jesus illustrating that he is not God. Hundreds of verses upon hundreds of verses verses your petty 1, 2 elusive alluring so called alleged desperation verses.
You see my point is you guys selectively pick verses and misrepresent Jesus. You keep focusing on copy psating the same verses over and over again while avoiding a plethora of other verses which if taken together paint a WHOLE OTHER image which does not suit your beliefs and doctrine.
Points so far we can conclude based on the bible not what you wishfully want to sya:
1. No one has to die for God to forgive
2. God has forgiven and will forgive without anyone or anything being sacrificed.
3. No one is to be held accountable for what someone else did. Your evil and your sins are your own no one needs to 'suffer' for you but you will die upon it.
And we can go on.
The more and more doctrines you believe that we analyze the more we can ascertain in fact that you are misrepresenting Jesus by avoiding all thes other verses. All we're acomplishing by God's mercy thank God is proving exactly what i've tried to prove to you, that more and more we go over these things the more it proves Jesus is not God but a creation and servant of God. Unfortunately out of arrogance and pride you persist and refuse to accept this and keep repeating more of the same
I didn't become a Muslim from reading a few cliche lines from the bible. I became Muslim by reading the whole bible. That's how truth is ascertained, not by a few selective verses like you do. You delibereately ignore the verses I post as they change what you're trying to paint and put forward.
My posts are like Charlie Brown's teacher to you LOL!!
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You shut your piehole and don't be discourteous to me.
dont talk with your mouth full of hair
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dont talk with your mouth full of hair
Hey kid, I said to shut your piehole and not be discourteous to me! >:(
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You know who's ever gimmick you are, you really are not doing christians a good favour by representing yourself with a filthy and hypocrite mouth as you hold. You're raging in every thread at everyone. These are not the teachings of Jesus peace be upon him.
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Look David praying for forgiveness and God hearing his prayer and forgiving him.
Imagine that, no one was killed or sacrificed or suicided for it.
1 Samuel 20:6
If your father misses me at all, tell him, ‘David earnestly asked my permission to hurry to Bethlehem, his hometown, because an annual sacrifice is being made there for his whole clan.’
2 Samuel 6:17
They brought the ark of the Lord and set it in its place inside the tent that David had pitched for it, and David sacrificed burnt offerings and fellowship offerings before the Lord.
2 Samuel 24:25
David built an altar to the Lord there and sacrificed burnt offerings and fellowship offerings. Then the Lord answered his prayer in behalf of the land, and the plague on Israel was stopped.
Job 1:5
When a period of feasting had run its course, Job would make arrangements for them to be purified. Early in the morning he would sacrifice a burnt offering for each of them, thinking, “Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts.” This was Job’s regular custom.
Job 42:8
So now take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and sacrifice a burnt offering for yourselves. My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly. You have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.”
Exodus 29:36
Sacrifice a bull each day as a sin offering to make atonement. Purify the altar by making atonement for it, and anoint it to consecrate it.
Exodus 30:10
Once a year Aaron shall make atonement on its horns. This annual atonement must be made with the blood of the atoning sin offering for the generations to come. It is most holy to the Lord.”
Leviticus 1:4
You are to lay your hand on the head of the burnt offering, and it will be accepted on your behalf to make atonement for you.
Leviticus 4:20
and do with this bull just as he did with the bull for the sin offering. In this way the priest will make atonement for the community, and they will be forgiven.
Leviticus 9:7
Moses said to Aaron, “Come to the altar and sacrifice your sin offering and your burnt offering and make atonement for yourself and the people; sacrifice the offering that is for the people and make atonement for them, as the Lord has commanded.”
Leviticus 16:11
“Aaron shall bring the bull for his own sin offering to make atonement for himself and his household, and he is to slaughter the bull for his own sin offering.
Leviticus 16:30
because on this day atonement will be made for you, to cleanse you. Then, before the Lord, you will be clean from all your sins.
Leviticus 16:34
“This is to be a lasting ordinance for you: Atonement is to be made once a year for all the sins of the Israelites.”And it was done, as the Lord commanded Moses.
Leviticus 17:11
For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.
Leviticus 19:22
With the ram of the guilt offering the priest is to make atonement for him before the Lord for the sin he has committed, and his sin will be forgiven.
Numbers 29:11
Include one male goat as a sin offering, in addition to the sin offering for atonement and the regular burnt offering with its grain offering, and their drink offerings.
Hebrews 9:22
In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
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Good for you so they used to do sacrifices. They also were forgiven without sacrifices. Clever how you end with the NT passages including Paul's letters.
Why do you do this? Do you not fear God? When the truth is given to you, why do you ignore it or avoid it and persist?
I posted the other verses which illustrate exactly the opposite, yet somehow they are just conveniently ignored so you can persist in your doctrines.
Do you know why the Jews were asked so many things? Because they were haughty. God was merciful to them, but they were haughty so God made things difficult for them so they would prove their faith. This is primarily why through Moses they were given so many rulings.
Even with a messenger of God amongst them they earnestly went back to idol worship even Moses being strengthened by Aron his brother. They disobeyed. They wanted to do all sorts of evil. DESPITE all the signs given to them! Even when in slavery and how they were taken out of the grips of the pharaos.
Over and over again they DISOBEYED God's orders and commandments of all sorts. Over and over God's wrath is upon them and that is the narrative of the old testament over and over again.
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You know who's ever gimmick you are, you really are not doing christians a good favour by representing yourself with a filthy and hypocrite mouth as you hold. You're raging in every thread at everyone. These are not the teachings of Jesus peace be upon him.
You shut up, you Muslim troll. What can a Satanist like you possibly know about Jesus? Just because you skimmed through the Bible a few times doesn't mean you understand Jesus. Jesus is very angry at sin and so He destroys the evildoers like you, that's the real Jesus, praise be to Him. The Lord and the God Jesus doesn't stand evil at all.
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You shut up, you Muslim troll. What can a Satanist like you possibly know about Jesus? Just because you skimmed through the Bible a few times doesn't mean you understand Jesus. Jesus is very angry at sin and so He destroys the evildoers like you, that's the real Jesus, praise be to Him. The Lord and the God Jesus doesn't stand evil at all.
I didn't skim through the bible, I studied the bible, went to sunday school, went to and graduated from a christian school, served at my church, etc...
Man... it pains my eyes to even listen to how you speak. It's embarassing, it's disgusting. Regardless of you being a troll and a fake account, you're misrepresenting Christians everywhere with the filthy manners you speak in.
The bible speaks left and right about filthy speech... yet here you are... a so called christian. I feel sorry for you.
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Good for you so they used to do sacrifices. They also were forgiven without sacrifices. Clever how you end with the NT passages including Paul's letters.
Then you do agree that God "also" commanded Israel to sacrifice animals as atonement for their sins.
Likewise, Jesus Christ said that God sent him to die as atonement for our sins.
I ended with two NT passages, one of them being the Gospel of Jesus Christ, not Paul's letter. And Paul's letter is simply confirming what God said in Leviticus 17:11 says:
"For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life."
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You shut up, you Muslim troll. What can a Satanist like you possibly know about Jesus? Just because you skimmed through the Bible a few times doesn't mean you understand Jesus. Jesus is very angry at sin and so He destroys the evildoers like you, that's the real Jesus, praise be to Him. The Lord and the God Jesus doesn't stand evil at all.
Jon, please stop insulting a_ahmed! We are trying to have a discussion here. Let's be kind to our Muslim friends.
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And the reason for those sacrifices and requirements was specifically for? In retribution to the way the Jews were behaving despite having a messenger of God in front of them, despite being given so many signs, despite being saved from pharaoh by God, etc... etc... I thought you read the bible? This is the whole narrative of the old testament, how haughty the jews were, and the many things asked of them to prove htemselves.
Mind you, Jews are not the only people of the world. God sent messengers and prophets before them and after them. This was their special case. AND STILL as I illustrated in the verses I copied, God forgave them WITHOUT sacrifices as well.
You're just shooting air man. Give it up. God does not need human sacrifices, especially innocent human sacrifices that's just plain crazy. Why sacrifice an innoscent human life for other sinners? It makes no sense at all in plain common sense speak even in human level of justice it does not fly.
In Islam we are thought God does not need ANYTHING from us not even our worship absolutely not, but we need HIM! Anything we do is out of our own accord of proving our faith in obeying Him.
In Islam we are thought of the mercy and forgiveness of God which is far greater than the cruelty of innocent human sacrifice. Islam is for all mankind not for a special race.
(http://xeniagreekmuslimah.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/hadith-qudsi-050311.jpg)
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Mind you, Jews are not the only people of the world. God sent messengers and prophets before them and after them. This was their special case. AND STILL as I illustrated in the verses I copied, God forgave them WITHOUT sacrifices as well.
But God commanded animal sacrifice as atonement for their sins too.
Likewise, as Jesus Christ said, God sent him to die for our sins.
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But God commanded animal sacrifice as atonement for their sins too.
Likewise, as Jesus Christ said, God sent him to die for our sins.
Okay if you want to keep believing what you believe and ignoring the verses that I posted from the bible :)
And why did Jesus then cry to God to save him from death? And pray to God over and over again. Etc... etc... aah... I wish God would guide you and open your eyes and your heart to the truth and wash away with this pride and arrogance..
In Islam we learn of the mercy and compassion of God who does not need to have human sacrifices human beings to forgive others. I accept this as God is just and not cruel.
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Okay if you want to keep believing what you believe and ignoring the verses that I posted from the bible Smiley
But in Islam we learn of the mercy and compassion of God who does not need to have human sacrifices human beings to forgive others. I accept this as God is just and not cruel.
And lastly why did Jesus then cry to God to save him from death?
Okay if you want to keep believing what you believe and ignoring the verses that I posted from the bible :)
The Bible says that God is merciful, that God is love, but it says also that God is Just and sin will be punished. Jesus was punished for our sins.
Is God not Just as well as Merciful?
Lastly, I will turn the tables on you and ask you, if Jesus asked God to save him from death, then why did God say no? Then why did Jesus still died for our sins?
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Jesus was punished for our sins.
That's very sad if you believe that. It's twisted and non-sensical.
Imagine I kill someone and say your sins are forgiven.
When someone becomes a Muslim their rap sheet is cleaned. They start like a baby. Sinless.
When we enter this world we are sinless (this is the teaching of islam unlike christianity with original sin) however we acrue sins over time. When you become a Muslim though, all those sins are wiped clean and you start like a new born.
Lastly, I will turn the tables on you and ask you, if Jesus asked God to save him from death, then why did God say no? Then why did Jesus still died for our sins?
Do you even listen to yourself and the ironies you speak? You admit that Jesus cried to be saved from death (as according to the bible). You admit he cried and was saved (as we believe) although you say he was not. So you have a paradox yet again. You show God as cruel and merciless if we go after your story or God is merciful if go by Islam's story.
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That's very sad if you believe that. It's twisted and non-sensical.
Do you even listen to yourself and the ironies you speak? You admit that Jesus cried to be saved from death (as according to the bible). You admit he cried and was saved (as we believe) although you say he was not. So you have a paradox yet again. You show God as cruel and merciless if we go after your story or God is merciful if go by Islam's story.
I believe it because it was Jesus who said that God sent him to die for our sins.
I did not admit that Jesus "cried to God to be saved from death." You said that. I asked: If he really did, then why did God say no?
In other words, if there was another way to be saved from our sins, then why did Jesus die for our sins?
John 10:17-18
17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again.
18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.
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Hebrew 5:7 he (Jesus) prayed and cried for GOD to hear him and give him mercy by saving him from death.
Only God guides, we are but delivering the message.
Have a nice day. Jesus was a servant of God who prayed and worshipped God.
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Hebrew 5:7 he (Jesus) prayed and cried for GOD to hear him and give him mercy by saving him from death.
Only God guides, we are but delivering the message.
Have a nice day. Jesus was a servant of God who prayed and worshipped God.
a_ahmed?? ???
Are you quoting Paul's letters to me? ???
I rarely quote Paul to Muslims since I know how Muslims feel about Paul. So I am shocked and puzzled that you've quoted Paul to Christians in order to support your beliefs, not once, but twice that I have noticed.
Anyway, here is the complete passage:
Hebrews 5:1-10
1 Every high priest is selected from among the people and is appointed to represent the people in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins.
2 He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness.
3 This is why he has to offer sacrifices for his own sins, as well as for the sins of the people.
4 And no one takes this honor on himself, but he receives it when called by God, just as Aaron was.
5 In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him,
“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father.”
6 And he says in another place,
“You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.”
7 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.
8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered
9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.
More...
Hebrews 7:24-25
24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood.
25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
Hebrews 9:27-28
27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
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a_ahmed?? ???
Are you quoting Paul's letters to me? ???
I rarely quote Paul to Muslims since I know how Muslims feel about Paul. So I am shocked and puzzled that you've quoted Paul to Christians in order to support your beliefs, not once, but twice that I have noticed.
Anyway, here is the complete passage:
Hebrews 5:1-10
1 Every high priest is selected from among the people and is appointed to represent the people in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins.
2 He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness.
3 This is why he has to offer sacrifices for his own sins, as well as for the sins of the people.
4 And no one takes this honor on himself, but he receives it when called by God, just as Aaron was.
5 In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him,
“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father.”
6 And he says in another place,
“You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.”
7 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.
8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered
9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.
More...
Hebrews 7:24-25
24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood.
25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
Hebrews 9:27-28
27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
Exactly, Christ was the "highest" priest on earth and like other high priests he publically prayed on behalf of his church with great passion. Christ's tears weren't that of dread, but of desperation and love for us. Hebrews 5:7 doesn’t say that Christ prayed crying and weeping and pleading to be saved from death. It actually states that Christ prayed to the one (the Father) who could rescue him from death. God willingly limited the Sonship person of his essence into that of a human man; hence Christ often said that he was sent by the Father...he was. While limited he was subordindate to the Father due his earthly position and power/scope. Christ lived as a man (eating, praying, sleeping, sweating, working, crying etc...) as a divine example of how we should submit to God's will in our lives. Jesus is God despite his human existence and his power and scope being temporarily limited (ex: during his time on earth he did not know the hour of his return). The Son and the Father are one, but while on earth he yielded and drew strength and power from the Father and in doing so he cried aloud to God the Father for comfort and strength as a man.
An example of why Christ prayed aloud to the Father is exhibited in the raising of Lazarus:
John 11:17-43
17 When Jesus arrived at Bethany, he was told that Lazarus had already been in his grave for four days. 18 Bethany was only a few miles[a] down the road from Jerusalem, 19 and many of the people had come to console Martha and Mary in their loss. 20 When Martha got word that Jesus was coming, she went to meet him. But Mary stayed in the house. 21 Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if only you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But even now I know that God will give you whatever you ask.”
23 Jesus told her, “Your brother will rise again.”
24 “Yes,” Martha said, “he will rise when everyone else rises, at the last day.”
25 Jesus told her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Anyone who believes in me will live, even after dying. 26 Everyone who lives in me and believes in me will never ever die. Do you believe this, Martha?”
27 “Yes, Lord,” she told him. “I have always believed you are the Messiah, the Son of God, the one who has come into the world from God.” 28 Then she returned to Mary. She called Mary aside from the mourners and told her, “The Teacher is here and wants to see you.” 29 So Mary immediately went to him.
30 Jesus had stayed outside the village, at the place where Martha met him. 31 When the people who were at the house consoling Mary saw her leave so hastily, they assumed she was going to Lazarus’s grave to weep. So they followed her there. 32 When Mary arrived and saw Jesus, she fell at his feet and said, “Lord, if only you had been here, my brother would not have died.”
33 When Jesus saw her weeping and saw the other people wailing with her, a deep anger welled up within him,[c] and he was deeply troubled. 34 “Where have you put him?” he asked them.
They told him, “Lord, come and see.” 35 Then Jesus wept. 36 The people who were standing nearby said, “See how much he loved him!” 37 But some said, “This man healed a blind man. Couldn’t he have kept Lazarus from dying?”
38 Jesus was still angry as he arrived at the tomb, a cave with a stone rolled across its entrance. 39 “Roll the stone aside,” Jesus told them.
But Martha, the dead man’s sister, protested, “Lord, he has been dead for four days. The smell will be terrible.”
40 Jesus responded, “Didn’t I tell you that you would see God’s glory if you believe?” 41 So they rolled the stone aside. Then Jesus looked up to heaven and said, “Father, thank you for hearing me. 42 You always hear me, but I said it out loud for the sake of all these people standing here, so that they will believe you sent me.” 43 Then Jesus shouted, “Lazarus, come out!”
Others question, "well, why did Christ cry out to God on the cross? yet another example of Christ crying and pleading to be saved from death!"
“Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” or “My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?” In this instance he was quoting Psalm 22 written by the same man from whose line he descended (David) while at the same time indicating the fulfillment of prophecy at the exact time it was occurring.
Psalm 22
1 My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?
Why are you so far away when I groan for help?
2 Every day I call to you, my God, but you do not answer.
Every night you hear my voice, but I find no relief.
3 Yet you are holy,
enthroned on the praises of Israel.
4 Our ancestors trusted in you,
and you rescued them.
5 They cried out to you and were saved.
They trusted in you and were never disgraced.
6 But I am a worm and not a man.
I am scorned and despised by all!
7 Everyone who sees me mocks me.
They sneer and shake their heads, saying,
8 “Is this the one who relies on the LORD?
Then let the LORD save him!
If the LORD loves him so much,
let the LORD rescue him!”
9 Yet you brought me safely from my mother’s womb
and led me to trust you at my mother’s breast.
10 I was thrust into your arms at my birth.
You have been my God from the moment I was born.
11 Do not stay so far from me,
for trouble is near,
and no one else can help me.
12 My enemies surround me like a herd of bulls;
fierce bulls of Bashan have hemmed me in!
13 Like lions they open their jaws against me,
roaring and tearing into their prey.
14 My life is poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart is like wax,
melting within me.
15 My strength has dried up like sunbaked clay.
My tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth.
You have laid me in the dust and left me for dead.
16 My enemies surround me like a pack of dogs;
an evil gang closes in on me.
They have pierced my hands and feet.
17 I can count all my bones.
My enemies stare at me and gloat.
18 They divide my garments among themselves
and throw dice for my clothing.
19 O LORD, do not stay far away!
You are my strength; come quickly to my aid!
20 Save me from the sword;
spare my precious life from these dogs.
21 Snatch me from the lion’s jaws
and from the horns of these wild oxen.
22 I will proclaim your name to my brothers and sisters.
I will praise you among your assembled people.
23 Praise the LORD, all you who fear him!
Honor him, all you descendants of Jacob!
Show him reverence, all you descendants of Israel!
24 For he has not ignored or belittled the suffering of the needy.
He has not turned his back on them,
but has listened to their cries for help.
25 I will praise you in the great assembly.
I will fulfill my vows in the presence of those who worship you.
26 The poor will eat and be satisfied.
All who seek the LORD will praise him.
Their hearts will rejoice with everlasting joy.
27 The whole earth will acknowledge the LORD and return to him.
All the families of the nations will bow down before him.
28 For royal power belongs to the LORD.
He rules all the nations.
29 Let the rich of the earth feast and worship.
Bow before him, all who are mortal,
all whose lives will end as dust.
30 Our children will also serve him.
Future generations will hear about the wonders of the Lord.
31 His righteous acts will be told to those not yet born.
They will hear about everything he has done.
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a_ahmed?? ???
Are you quoting Paul's letters to me? ???
I rarely quote Paul to Muslims since I know how Muslims feel about Paul. So I am shocked and puzzled that you've quoted Paul to Christians in order to support your beliefs, not once, but twice that I have noticed.
Anyway, here is the complete passage:
Hebrews 5:1-10
1 Every high priest is selected from among the people and is appointed to represent the people in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins.
2 He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness.
3 This is why he has to offer sacrifices for his own sins, as well as for the sins of the people.
4 And no one takes this honor on himself, but he receives it when called by God, just as Aaron was.
5 In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him,
“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father.”
6 And he says in another place,
“You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.”
7 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.
8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered
9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.
More...
Hebrews 7:24-25
24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood.
25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
Hebrews 9:27-28
27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
More...
Hebrews 2:14-17
14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—
15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.
16 For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants.
17 For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.
Hebrews 12:2
fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Hebrews 13:20
Now may the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep
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I rarely quote Paul to Muslims since I know how Muslims feel about Paul. So I am shocked and puzzled that you've quoted Paul to Christians in order to support your beliefs, not once, but twice that I have noticed.
Yes, for awhile I decided to refrain from quoting from any of Paul's letters because of exactly that, but then I stopped worrying about it because every verse of non-Pauline scripture in the NT is denied also.
I can remember several months back responding to a verse quoted from the OT used as a defense for a position (verse and topic escape me now). The verse was correctly stated, but the context and understanding was not correct so I responded as such. Shortly thereafter I referred to that exact same verse used in the exact same context in support of my position in a different thread and was told by the same person (I'll let you guess who LOL) who had posted that verse in the other thread that the verse was corrupted LOL.
That said, I've come to the conclusion that I no longer need to be concerned with sharing only "certain scripture" because of my audience....all scripture is meant for every audience. As we've clearly validated, nothing is accepted by our current Muslim audience so why worry excluding some verses and including others? Far more folks read this board than just our Muslim audience and at this point it's about sharing with the larger, undecided audience. Regrettably, our Muslim members have made up their minds. For me, any additional conversation in that regard is simply about correcting misrepresentation of Christianity or scripture.
Still, IMHO, the apostle Paul is arguably Christ's greatest advocate, missionary, minister and apologist to ever live.
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Yes, for awhile I decided to refrain from quoting from any of Paul's letters because of exactly that, but then I stopped worrying about it because every verse of non-Pauline scripture in the NT is denied also.
I can remember several months back responding to a verse quoted from the OT used as a defense for a position (verse and topic escape me now). The verse was correctly stated, but the context and understanding was not correct so I responded as such. Shortly thereafter I referred to that exact same verse used in the exact same context in support of my position in a different thread and was told by the same person (I'll let you guess who LOL) who had posted that verse in the other thread that the verse was corrupted LOL.
That said, I've come to the conclusion that I no longer need to be concerned with sharing only "certain scripture" because of my audience....all scripture is meant for every audience. As we've clearly validated, nothing is accepted by our current Muslim audience so why worry excluding some verses and including others? Far more folks read this board than just our Muslim audience and at this point it's about sharing with the larger, undecided audience. Regrettably, our Muslim members have made up their minds. For me, any additional conversation in that regard is simply about correcting misrepresentation of Christianity or scripture.
Still, IMHO, the apostle Paul is arguably Christ's greatest advocate, missionary, minister and apologist to ever live.
I agree! Imagine an Orthodox Jew debating a Christian and quoting the Old Testament, and the Christian saying "That part of the Old Testament was corrupted. The New Testament is the only true and the last revealed word of God." ;D
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I agree! Imagine an Orthodox Jew debating a Christian and quoting the Old Testament, and the Christian saying "That part of the Old Testament was corrupted. The New Testament is the only true and the last revelation from God." ;D
LOL, that's a great point...never thought of that actually.
IMO, a primary issue is that without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit discernment is missing by nonbelievers; unfortunately, most everyone wants to put the cart before the horse when it comes to proof of God and understanding of scripture.
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Okay so on topic here, Jesus is asked to commit suicide and he refuses to die.
Are you trying to imply that Jesus responding is saying he is Lord your God?
Jesus came to die on Calvary's cross....Satan doesn't dictate the terms.
Certainly, no one else is being tempted other than Jesus.
You didn't respond to this previously and I let it go, but I decided to revisit.
So, Christ was being tempted by Satan. And Christ responds to Satan saying, "You must not test the Lord your God."
If Christ wasn't claiming to be God in this instance then what was the purpose of this statement? What was he saying?
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He was quoting the OT not referring ::) to himself. Because people used to say the same thing we'll do such and such and God will save us. So if Jesus listened to satan's 'advice' of committing suicide and then letting God save him if he is truly God's servant, but that would be 'tempting' God just like the examples in OT where people would try to act in such a manner.
Why would God be tempted by his own creation, think for a second and use your brain seriously.
Anyways.
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He was quoting the OT not referring ::) to himself. Because people used to say the same thing we'll do such and such and God will save us. So if Jesus listened to satan's 'advice' of committing suicide and then letting God save him if he is truly God's servant, but that would be 'tempting' God just like the examples in OT where people would try to act in such a manner.
Why would God be tempted by his own creation, think for a second and use your brain seriously.
Anyways.
ahmed, you don't need eye-roll smileys with me or constant jabs at my intellect...it's completely unnecessary with me. We can just talk cause I'm not here to "getcha"!
I'll answer your question completely when I return home this evening. I've read multiple books that cover this topic as well.....I try and use my brain from time to time.
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It's pretty simple how can God be tempted by his own creation to commit a sin? Do you not even think? And God being weak and vulnerable to the devil? Seriously
The context of it is as per old testament 'tempting God' in the sense that you are saying hey I'll kill myself but because I believe in God he will save me. Or something along those lines.
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From LUKE:
4 Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, left the Jordan and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, 2 where for forty days he was tempted[a] by the devil. He ate nothing during those days, and at the end of them he was hungry.
God hungry? Had nothing? Tempted by devil for 40 days? Wow...
3 The devil said to him, “If you are the Son of God, tell this stone to become bread.”
4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone.’”
5 The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. 6 And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendour; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. 7 If you worship me, it will all be yours.”
So if Jesus is 'god', he needs the devil to give him authority Wow...?
8 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.’[c]”
9 The devil led him to Jerusalem and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down from here. 10 For it is written:
“‘He will command his angels concerning you
to guard you carefully;
11 they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’[d]”
12 Jesus answered, “It is said: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’[e]”
13 When the devil had finished all this tempting, he left him until an opportune time.
The devil is OFFERING THE WHOLE WORLD to Jesus if he worships the devil?
Not only are the verses about the 'creation' tempting supposedly 'god' the creation is offering the creation to supposedly 'god'?
I need not say more...
Open your heart and God given intellect and think for a moment.
The 'devil' has opportunity to 'tempt' 'god' and trick 'god' or 'god' hesitates.
no it's quite clear from even these verses Jesus is differentiated from God again and again. The verse of Jesus talking about not tempting the lord is as is in the old testament. He is not refering to himself and come on now all the other highlighted stuff just rock bottoms whatever you were trying to 'allure to'
God gave you intellect, why are you so haughty and arrogant in accepting that which is true and blindly to no avail defending what you blindly believe and try to justify.
Jesus was a mighty servant of God who would not betray his faith in God. God is God.
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From LUKE:
4 Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, left the Jordan and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, 2 where for forty days he was tempted[a] by the devil. He ate nothing during those days, and at the end of them he was hungry.
God hungry? Had nothing? Tempted by devil for 40 days? Wow...
3 The devil said to him, “If you are the Son of God, tell this stone to become bread.”
4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone.’”
5 The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. 6 And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendour; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. 7 If you worship me, it will all be yours.”
So if Jesus is 'god', he needs the devil to give him authority Wow...?
8 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.’[c]”
9 The devil led him to Jerusalem and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down from here. 10 For it is written:
“‘He will command his angels concerning you
to guard you carefully;
11 they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’[d]”
12 Jesus answered, “It is said: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’[e]”
13 When the devil had finished all this tempting, he left him until an opportune time.
The devil is OFFERING THE WHOLE WORLD to Jesus if he worships the devil?
Not only are the verses about the 'creation' tempting supposedly 'god' the creation is offering the creation to supposedly 'god'?
I need not say more...
Open your heart and God given intellect and think for a moment.
The 'devil' has opportunity to 'tempt' 'god' and trick 'god' or 'god' hesitates.
no it's quite clear from even these verses Jesus is differentiated from God again and again. The verse of Jesus talking about not tempting the lord is as is in the old testament. He is not refering to himself and come on now all the other highlighted stuff just rock bottoms whatever you were trying to 'allure to'
God gave you intellect, why are you so haughty and arrogant in accepting that which is true and blindly to no avail defending what you blindly believe and try to justify.
Jesus was a mighty servant of God who would not betray his faith in God. God is God.
Jesus was/is the Son of God, God Himself manifest in the flesh, and not a servant of God. In addition you tell ANOTHER lie when you claim He hesitates. He never hesitated but answered the devil firmly and decisively. So my friend Ahmed you are full of dirty sneaky lies as well as being a recreant (in both senses of the word) who lacks the guts to answer even my simple question but why should I be surprised given that Islam itself is one gargantuan lie? Here it is again then. Answer either 'yes' or 'no' please if you're not too afraid to answer. Ahmed, if I prove to you (and everyone here) that Christianity and the Bible are of the true God and that Islam is nothing but a giant fraud will you renounce Islam and Allah the pagan deity and accept God and His Son Jesus Christ? Are you afraid of answering this question, my dear friend Ahmed?
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I don't know much yet about the Bible except what I learned from an Islamic perspective.
In Islam Ibrahim (Abraham threw stones at the devil) that's why when people go on haj they throw stones at the pillars.
Anyway, I am sure Jesus figured it out and it worked out in the end as it did.
No need to be all arrogant and try and prove how smart you are smart ahmed. This isn't a competition here.
In my Islam we were against arrogant people and I never liked arrogant people. One reason I had hate for Christians was because I saw arrogance.
But now, the arrogance I see is most coming from Muslim people like ahmed.
I hope Christianity has stuff against arrogance and about being modest as those were what I loved about Islam.
That's why Islam says it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to get into heaven... Imo rich people are arrogant.
Also towards the end of my Islamic journey before finding Christianity it was all the arrogant muslims I hated and ahmed here was the straw that broke the camels back.
Jesus Christ is my lord and savior amen =)
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No I just reject liars and lies. Being educated, knowledgable, smart or aware is not arrogance. Arrogance is rejecting the truth when you are confronted with it.
Abdullah ibn Mas’ud reported: The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “No one who has the weight of a mustard seed of arrogance in his heart will enter Paradise.” Someone said, “Indeed, a man loves to have beautiful clothes and shoes.” So the Prophet said, “Verily, Allah is beautiful and He loves beauty. Arrogance means rejecting the truth and looking down on people.”
Source: Sahih Muslim 91
Loco you're becoming boring. Stop pretending to be a Ukranian Muslim then to being a Pakistani Muslim; talking about bollywood (lol? Worst example to mention as far as trying to prove being a good Muslim), talking about your Indian lovers and other non-sense. You even tried to pull off Egyptian family Muslim. It's retarded. You were never a Muslim and you are a Christian troll. Going back and forth between bad English and good English is not making you any more credible.
You lost the arguments before, you're not going to win them further by being a fraud. You're only proving one thing, that fraud and fraudulent ways are necessary to prove lies and fraud.
It's funny because unlike Christians, Muslims don't need fake conversion stories. What does that tell us about you?
Yes there are Muslims who have become Christians but as I mentioned before they are always:
- Those that absolutely knew nothing of Islam and grew up like any other non-muslim in practice despite being in a muslim country only knowing keywords but not actually understanding or following the religion.
- Those that have an agenda or see worldly profit such as the 'son of hamas' and see ways to get rich. Or that "ex terrorist now terrorism expert that the CNN exposed as a fraud. They don't fear God, they are selfish and they don't mind lying or using fraud to get rich. They sell themselves and their families for this world.
- Those that follow their desires, and when confronted to change themeslves rebel. Whether it's being alcoholics, fornicators, loose life style, everything about religion bothers them so they find sanctity in christianity where they get to do anything they want while claiming to be 'saved'.
For example a year ago there was a news story about how churches are becoming empty in Germany but this one small church suddenly had a 'surprising' growth of members. Iranian shias who became Christian.
Well for starters Iranians are not religious, they are living like non-muslims mostly, drinking, partying, loose, how hard is it really to switch? They were not following Islam to begin with. #2 Shias are far away from the authentic teachings of Islam, they go against the fundemental teachings of the qura'n. How hard is it switch over? Not very hard. You just carry on doing what you were ALREADY doing, following your desires and not Islam and suddenly Christianity offers an easy way to continue doing what you're doing while being 'saved' and then going on emotionally about how you are saved and how its all so sweet and nice.
The difference with the majority of those that become Muslims is that they tried to be better Christians, they KNEW what Christianity teaches in depth, they studied other religions, and then they accept Islam whole heartedly in a qualitative and sincere matter. And as already mentioned we don't need fraud stories to prove our religion.
"We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and INSIDE THEIR SELVES, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth. Is it not sufficient as regards your Lord that He is a witness over all things? "Qur'an 41:53"
Truth stands out clear from Error "Qur'an 2:256"
So it is you who is arrogant. May Allah (swt) guide you, and not let you be of the losers on the day of judgment. Everyone is given a chance.
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Now you think people can't watch bollywood and be muslim? Lol I know lots of muslims that watch bolywood and lolywood.
You are crazy ahmed. You have no humanity, do you? Are you a psychopath or something?
You will never think anyone is a muslim in your book.
Take your radical islam and shove it. You people are only a hand full of people and no one likes you. Go away shoooo!!! I have lots of muslim friends and you piss us all of.
I wont argue with you because i know the answer already. Lol I know what you will say parot lol
It's pointless with you.
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Yeah, and true about my Iranian friends. They made fun of me for being too serious.
Things like halal, fasting, not drinking, not letting dogs in the house ect... Trying to get all ur prayers in and being with ppl for the friday afternoon prayer ect... Most never cared but they still self identified as being Muslim. I always see them on Ramadan even drinking, eating, in the day plus hanging out at the hookah joint stoned on shisha lol wtf? On Ramadan?
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Examples of those who do not practice the religion doesn't make them non-muslims but rather weak Muslims, hypocrites and ignorant at best. Not a representation of Islam's teachings but rather the very opposite.
Deviated sects which are a minority such as ahmedis, ismailis, etc.. are not Muslims even though they trace their roots to Islam and Muslims. Not all are automatically non-muslims until they reaffirm their kur disbelief (for example praying to other than Allah). Shi'as for example praying to imams, graves, etc.. this is against the fundemental teachings of tawheed (the oneness and worship of the one God) in the qur'an. Ismailis are not even considered muslim by shias. Their qibla (direction of prayer) is towards their 'leader'.
There is no argument about this hate it as much as you like. One doesn't need to go into deep explanations as to why they go against fundemental teachings of the qur'an and sunnah. Often times offshoot groups were funded by non-muslim interests for instance the ahmedis/qadianis by the British at the time. They had an extra 'prophet'/'messiah' fraud. This goes against the finality of prophethood.
So nice try again Loco (stop pretending with this troll account you're using.). Just because you've never been exposed to Muslims who practice the religion does not mean it's 'impossible'. You're such an ignorant person who only knows how to hate Islam rather than learn about Islam and Muslims.
You reaffirm that your view of Islam is based on those that do not practice the religion. Therefore you yourself are doing a good job of misrepresenting Islam and wanting to reinforce the idea that Islam cannot be practiced. That's the dumbest thing you've attempted so far... aside from pretending to be ukranian, pakistani and egyptian.. and going back and forth between good English and broken English.
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a_ahmed, I am not Rhino! I have only one account. Any mod on getbig can confirm this. Just ask.
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Loco and the mods are the one's lauging lol
Hey loco what's up? I am real. Stay true to Jesus. I am no troll =)
Just check i.p.s. =)
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Your English was just fine troll, it only got worse here where you tried to act that you are Ukranian, Pakistani and Egyptian Muslim. Nice try. You were never born a Muslim and your lack of knowledge and stereotyping only showcases you're a troll. Your credibility is nil. Even if you claim you are born Muslim, you still showcase you have zero knowledge on the religion and only hearsay.
You really lose credibility when you jest around talking about fasting and breaking your fast by getting drunk. Seriously?
So I guess being a Christian now you like getting drunk? Islam is totally wrong in forbidding alcohol, so now you're better off.
Lets say you were born Muslim and I accept that you are not a troll. You are only showcasing that in fact you did not follow the religion and that the fault is with you not the religion. Instead of changing yourself to a better person you want an easy way out. A free pass to do whatever you want because when you are confronted to be a better Muslim, you refuse out of arrogance and want to keep doing whatever you're doing. So because of your arrogance now there is a 'problem with Islam' but rather in reality there is a problem with you.
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I am aware of that. And nothing you say is news to me. I already know your answer befofe you say it.
I got drunk and broke the fast as a way to reject Islam and be done with it once and for all. We are all sinners. Stop being arrogant.
You just want to prove yourself because you are a convert. While people will never see you as a Muslim because you are white. Just the way it is. Those Iranians that do jack will be seen as Muslims. You will just be seen as mental problems. Sorry. Just the way it is.
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I am aware of that. And nothing you say is news to me. I already know your answer befofe you say it.
I got drunk and broke the fast as a way to reject Islam and be done with it once and for all. We are all sinners. Stop being arrogant.
You just want to prove yourself because you are a convert. While people will never see you as a Muslim because you are white. Just the way it is. Those Iranians that do jack will be seen as Muslims. You will just be seen as mental problems. Sorry. Just the way it is.
Lol to prove that islam is wrong and christianity is right you got drunk? No you just prove you are lost and arrogant.
I'm not trying to 'prove myself as a convert' rather I have nothing to prove to you except correct your lies and mistakes that you try to portray as Islam. On the day of judgement everyone will stand before God alone. You will be judged accordingly justly by God and no one will be held accountable for your own actions except yourself.
God is the most merciful, but your arrogance will be your undoing as you are blinded by it. We are all sinners, but we are suppose to repent and stop sinning. Become better NOT worse.
You don't want to so you justify your arrogance by attacking Islam and God's commandments. Instead you are only fooling yourself in trying to claim you are 'saved' (oh really?) and continuing to sin. Convenient isn't it.
And they say, "None will enter Paradise except one who is a Jew or a Christian." That is [merely] their wishful thinking, Say, "Produce your proof, if you should be truthful." [Quran 2:111]
Only wishful thinking for someone to proudly boast they are 'saved' and going to heaven no problem.
So so far you've shown that being a Christian you love to lie, love to get drunk and love to have girlfriends left and right. Great improvement you brought upon yourself.
Abdullah ibn Mas’ud reported: The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “No one who has the weight of a mustard seed of arrogance in his heart will enter Paradise.” Someone said, “Indeed, a man loves to have beautiful clothes and shoes.” So the Prophet said, “Verily, Allah is beautiful and He loves beauty. Arrogance means rejecting the truth and looking down on people.”
Source: Sahih Muslim 91
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Best of luck. =) do whatever works for you :)
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Best of luck. =) do whatever works for you :)
That's the attitude you've taken, do whatever you want or desire.
I don't do whatever 'works' to satisfy others or myself, rather I would do whatever God commands.
And I don't believe in luck or chance either, only God's decree and order.
That's the difference between Christianity/Christians and Islam/Muslims right there.
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Religious screw ball. Or in get big fashion... Crazier than crazy =)
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Loco and the mods are the one's lauging lol
Hey loco what's up? I am real. Stay true to Jesus. I am no troll =)
Just check i.p.s. =)
Thank you, Rhino! God bless you! :)
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Loco is not Rhino.
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That's the attitude you've taken, do whatever you want or desire.
I don't do whatever 'works' to satisfy others or myself, rather I would do whatever God commands.
And I don't believe in luck or chance either, only God's decree and order.
That's the difference between Christianity/Christians and Islam/Muslims right there.
Christians serve the will of God.
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If you did you would be a Muslim because that is submitting your will to God's.
Instead every Christian follows his desires and argues that he is already saved.
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If you did you would be a Muslim because that is submitting your will to God's.
Instead every Christian follows his desires and argues that he is already saved.
Christians follow Jesus Christ.
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Because you have a closed mind with a radical view. You are the people doing damage to Islam.
Not everyone puts on blinders and has tunnel vision. Willfully blind!!!
There is more than one road to Heaven and God but you will never understand that :(
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Because you have a closed mind with a radical view. You are the people doing damage to Islam.
Not everyone puts on blinders and has tunnel vision. Willfully blind!!!
There is more than one road to Heaven and God but you will never understand that :(
Yup, not fornicating and not getting drunk are radical ideas. Obeying God is a radical idea too. But hey you are saved and you can continue your 'modern way of life' because that's what everyone is doing and you should continue doing too. Note my sarcasm.
You are an arrogant person who did not want to change himself and hate Islam because it commands you to good and commands you to change to the better which you do not want to do. You are comfortable in your disobedience of God. Arrogant that is all. You are finding excuses for yourself and nothing more. You can blabber all day long about how radical this, islam that, but the bottom line is it's your own self-defense mechanism of your own arrogance covering yourself up. Instead you excuse yourself now by claiming you are 'saved' by being a christian where you continue to do what you were already doing. All you have is wishful thinking.
The only one with blinders on is yourself. There is only one way to heaven and that is through God's mercy and obedience to God, not disobedience and arrogance. Certainly not idolatry.
I guess you will find your way to God through idolatry too now? Worshipping a human being. That's what some idolators claim, they use idols because it brings them 'closer to God'. You have tried to promote everything opposite of Islam, even hinduism who are polytheistic pantheists.
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If you did you would be a Muslim because that is submitting your will to God's.
Instead every Christian follows his desires and argues that he is already saved.
Christians have served the will of God long before Muslims existed....Christians still serve the will of God today.
This morning on my way to work I again prayed that I would represent Jesus Christ and that his will be done in my life and that I not be a hindrance to his will in anyway.
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Muslims existed before Jesus (pbuh) and Christians came after Jesus (pbuh), Jesus (pbuh) was a Jew. Chrsitianity started after Jesus (pbuh). Muslims before Jesus? They are called prophets and messengers of God. Because to be a Muslim is literally to submit your will to God and obey God. Not to be of a certain race or a certain ethnicity or a certain part of history.
What Christians do is claim to be following God and claim to be following Jesus (pbuh) but do you really? Everyone follows whatever you want and not merely just because of following desires but because you have little to follow? Paul did away with the law of God? So which law do you follow?
As already mentioned in past discussions, the early church fathers debated whether to celebrate pagan feasts or jewish feasts. Such as easter vs pass over.
From the beginning we are thought ten commandments in Sunday school, yet there aren't JUST ten commandments. There are hundreds of commandments.
The excuse that Christians make that they are saved is merely just that an excuse to do whatever you want. So if one person is more inclined in faith they may do more good, but the bottom line is you are just 'saved'.
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Muslims existed before Jesus (pbuh) and Christians came after Jesus (pbuh), Jesus (pbuh) was a Jew. Chrsitianity started after Jesus (pbuh). Muslims before Jesus? They are called prophets and messengers of God. Because to be a Muslim is to submit your will to God and obey God.
What Christians do is claim to be following God and claim to be following Jesus (pbuh) but do you really? Everyone follows whatever you want and not merely just because of following desires but because you have little to follow? Paul did away with the law of God? So which law do you follow?
From the beginning we are thought ten commandments in Sunday school, yet there aren't JUST ten commandments. There are hundreds of commandments.
The excuse that Christians make that they are saved is merely just that an excuse to do whatever you want. So if one person is more inclined in faith they may do more good, but the bottom line is you are just 'saved'.
Give it up ahmed, you are completely wrong and I'm bored with ya. Moving on.
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I used to say everything ahmed is saying anyway. So it's not news to me. I me I was saying it! Therin lies the problem. You either see it and everthing that is wrong... Or you don't.
And... When I used to talk like ahmed... Ppl were sick of hearing it. Even other so called Muslims. Anyway, anyone that has been on this board already knows what ahmed will say lol
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I used to say everything ahmed is saying anyway. So it's not news to me. I me I was saying it! Therin lies the problem. You either see it and everthing that is wrong... Or you don't.
And... When I used to talk like ahmed... Ppl were sick of hearing it. Even other so called Muslims. Anyway, anyone that has been on this board already knows what ahmed will say lol
Yes, over the course of a year I have read books on Islam, a lot of the Quran, spoken with various Muslims online, studied the arguments presented and I pretty much know a lot that will be said before it is actually said now. Unless of course a verse of biblical scripture is objected to randomly...I can't anticipate that.
It's taken some time to learn, but now most of Islam's objections are becoming fairly easy to anticipate now. Early on it wasn't....it was unfamiliar territory to me. I had learning to do (I'll always be learning though). Problem some folks have with me is that when they present me with an objection I haven't seen before I'll read a book or two to understand the objection and then respond to it. I don't always have an answer at my fingertips, but you can believe I'm thinking about it and attempting to understand it fully. I don't say any of this to be arrogant either, it's just who I am. I defend my faith because we're supposed to....not to win some silly argument but to win others for Christ.....that's my motivation.
For example, avxo and I began discussing various topics a few weeks back. He replied and shortly thereafter my work became crazy for over a week and then my entire family became sick for another 2 weeks (myself included). I haven't forgotten his reply though and I intend to respond now that work has calmed and we're all feeling better. I don't have delusions of mass converting people to Christ LOL, but often times I respond for the sake of others that may be reading that haven't made a choice.
I don't respond much to ahmed anymore because it's all a broken record to me now or like talkin with a brickwall. I have presented well-reasoned arguments repeatedly and it never makes an ounce of difference....not one iota of difference LOL. I'm certainly not the only Getbigger who has tried either. ahmed has his opinions and that's it.....there is nothing else....he's "never wrong".
So today I may respond to ahmed only for the sake of others reading his stuff so that they aren't misled. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think ahmed has a good heart, but he also has a very skewed perception of Christianity and he doesn't play well with others.....either you're with him or you're against him....there is no middle ground. A man like that can't be reasoned with, so I don't try anymore. Took me some time to learn that too.
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Muslims existed before Jesus (pbuh) and Christians came after Jesus (pbuh), Jesus (pbuh) was a Jew. Chrsitianity started after Jesus (pbuh). Muslims before Jesus? They are called prophets and messengers of God. Because to be a Muslim is literally to submit your will to God and obey God. Not to be of a certain race or a certain ethnicity or a certain part of history.
What Christians do is claim to be following God and claim to be following Jesus (pbuh) but do you really? Everyone follows whatever you want and not merely just because of following desires but because you have little to follow? Paul did away with the law of God? So which law do you follow?
As already mentioned in past discussions, the early church fathers debated whether to celebrate pagan feasts or jewish feasts. Such as easter vs pass over.
From the beginning we are thought ten commandments in Sunday school, yet there aren't JUST ten commandments. There are hundreds of commandments.
The excuse that Christians make that they are saved is merely just that an excuse to do whatever you want. So if one person is more inclined in faith they may do more good, but the bottom line is you are just 'saved'.
Jesus said that he existed before Abraham. So Jesus existed long before Muslims. Oh, and Judaism and Christianity existed long before Muslim plagiarism.
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I used to say everything ahmed is saying anyway. So it's not news to me. I me I was saying it! Therin lies the problem. You either see it and everthing that is wrong... Or you don't.
And... When I used to talk like ahmed... Ppl were sick of hearing it. Even other so called Muslims. Anyway, anyone that has been on this board already knows what ahmed will say lol
So you want to please others not God. Good for you.
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So today I may respond to ahmed only for the sake of others reading his stuff so that they aren't misled. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think ahmed has a good heart, but he also has a very skewed perception of Christianity and he doesn't play well with others.....either you're with him or you're against him....there is no middle ground. A man like that can't be reasoned with, so I don't try anymore. Took me some time to learn that too.
The only ones truly being misled and misleading others are those who worship a human being and not God. Claiming to be 'saved' while they do whatever their desires command rather than what God commands.
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The only ones truly being misled and misleading others are those who worship a human being and not God. Claiming to be 'saved' while they do whatever their desires command rather than what God commands.
I spit out your bait.
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Note the word: plagiarism. I still love Islam but plagiarism is still plagiarism. If Islam is for you then more power to you. But to deny the source is denail. And I know your response. Because I uses to argue the response to those that say Plagiarism. I know all the answers :/
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Islam didn't plagiarize anything, it affirms what was and continues to command what God commanded.
Plagiarizing would mean copy pasting things and claiming another God. For example sikhism. Which copy pastes ideas from Islam and Hinduism, denies the scriptures, denies the angels, denies the prophets and messengers of God, heaven/hell and other factors while claiming it is it's own unique religion while denying it ever copied anything from anyone. 'So it magically just came about' forget all those prophets and messengers before.
Islam doesn't suddenly bring something new, on the contrary, it affirms what was from Adam (pbuh) to Muhammad (pbuh).
The chain is merely broken by Jews who out of arrogance and disobedience of God didn't accept Jesus (pbuh) because they were in the wrong and didn't want to change themselves. Even when Islam came, they recognized the message being from God but out of arrogance and pride didn't accept it.
Christians on the other hand are misguided by themselves by not following God's commandments and instead whatever their desires want. Paul and the church replaced God's law with man made laws.
So when confronted with Islam which affirms what was and continues what is, you rebel. When commanded to obey God you rebel because you want to continue doing what you are doing and justify yourself claiming you are already 'saved'.
We Muslims are not to fornicate, this is to stay forever. We do not change our religion just because the 'times' or 'people dictate what their desires want. We avoid it although of course there are sinners amongst Muslims who do it. However in Christianity you can still be a 'good christian' and fornicate and do all the wrongs that are forbidden and still be 'saved'. It's a devil's trick at best. You can party, you can get drunk, you can have girlfriends, and it's all jolly because you are 'saved'. You shape your religion based on your desires.
Muslims try to emulate the prophets and messengers of God in practice, while Christians only at most give lip service.
Muslim women are closer to Mary (pbuh) rather than Christian women. In belief, in practice, in behaviour and conduct. Do Christian women dress or behave like Mary (pbuh)? No they follow what their desires and the times dictate.
Muslim men are also far closer to all the prophets of God rather than the Christian men. For example something as minute as being clean shaven that was popularized by the Romans. Copts and others do not shave. Why is it for example catholic priests shave their faces? Why do priests not marry? Even though God commanded mankind to procreate. It may be tiny issues I am bringing about and tiny divergences but in the long term you are in fact far away from the original commandments of God in every aspect small and major simply because you are guided by your desires and what people want.
So who are you trying to emulate? Certainly not Jesus (pbuh) except in lip service and selectively certain elements. You take some parts of the scripture and you leave others out of convenience.
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I have Hindu friends and Sikh friends also. I get along just fine. You are the problem. You just hate anyone that doesn't think the same way you do. You have a lot of hate. So many English died to defeat Hitller. And common wealth countries like India and Canada. The Sikhs are seen as great warriors and can even wear a turban as part of their uniform. There are radicals in all religions and no one likes you. You are a little hitler in my book. Shame. After so many died to defeat ppl like you :(
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I have Hindu friends and Sikh friends also. I get along just fine. You are the problem. You just hate anyone that doesn't think the same way you do. You have a lot of hate. So many English died to defeat Hitller. And common wealth countries like India and Canada. The Sikhs are seen as great warriors and can even wear a turban as part of their uniform. There are radicals in all religions and no one likes you. You are a little hitler in my book. Shame. After so many died to defeat ppl like you :(
You are so defensive in terms of covering up your own faults, that's your problem. It's fascinating because you keep boasting about the corrupt nature of yourself and those around you to try to discredit Islam, but all you are doing is discrediting yourself.
What you have done is out of arrogance not change yourself and when you could not change islam to suit your own corrupt soul and desires out of hatered you are totally opposed to islam. You try to pull off smoke and mirrors to use excuses and flaunt words like radical, talibal, 'you', etc... but I know and you know deep inside you are just covering up your own faults while trying to justify yourself pointing fingers at others. You now found a way to fool yourself and justify doing what you're doing as a Christian because you are 'saved'.
I have a lot of non-muslim friends and family. Remember not everyone in my family has become Muslim. It's not about getting along. I get a long fine with everyone. It's about upholding the truth. No one is forcing you to be good, rather correcting you for your own sake where you are wrong. Being Muslim is submitting your will to God, not submitting to your desires or men.
You will be held accountable on the day of judgement for yourself and be punished accordingly to what you have done and are doing. You can continue to fool yourself that you are 'saved' and guaranteed heaven.
"No one likes you". I am not talking here to be liked. I don't need you to like me or approve of me. If my action is good and pleases God is more important than to please mankind. Would Jesus (pbuh) appease the disbelievers? He had how many followers amongst the Jews? 12 devoted companions and how many others that you could count on your hands. Would Abraham appease the disbelievers by worshipping idols with them, no he destroyed the idols in disobedience to his father? Muhammad (pbuh) was offered kingship, women, wealth but he refused it all to deliver the message of God while he himself and his companions were all subjected to oppression.
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Enough all ready. Do they have rubber rooms in England? Lol. I used to be a person that would yell : ''allahu akbar'' with my fist in the air and chant ''I love death... The way they love life!!!''' I am not going back. No way in hell. Anyway... As salamu alyakum... As we say. But I will not go back. Salam. Peace to all :) wheather hindu sikh or Muslim and Christian :) I found Jesus now and am happy :)
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(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/64916_416652228452555_411565791_n.jpg)
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Matthew 1:21
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”
Matthew 26:28
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
John 10:11
I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
John 11:50-52
50 You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”
51 He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation,
52 and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one.
Romans 4:25
He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
1 Corinthians 15:3
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
1 Thessalonians 5:9-10
9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.
1 John 4:10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
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Matthew 16:13-20
13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?”
14 “Well,” they replied, “some say John the Baptist, some say Elijah, and others say Jeremiah or one of the other prophets.”
15 Then he asked them, “But who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “You are blessed, Simon son of John, because my Father in heaven has revealed this to you. You did not learn this from any human being.
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Here's all of Luke 24 from the NIRV version for the sake of context that illustrates that Jesus was identified as prophet by some. Many didn't know what to make of Jesus, but they knew he was special and they knew of Moses, Elijah, Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah and immediately placed Jesus within their ranks. Then Jesus demonstrated more and more who exactly he was, that he was far, far more than a mere prophet.
Prophets alone are not worthy of worship nor are they able to forgive sins or empower others to forgive sins. Prophets also don't claim to be the object of their prophecy or the fulfillment of prophecy either. Prophets also don't have glorified bodies that allow them to appear and reappear at will. Jesus is absolutely prophetic (given that he is divine), but he's also the object of prophecy, the fulfillment of prophecy, the Messiah, the risen Lord and the Son of God who is worthy of worship and able to forgive sin.
Just need that all-important context around the verse; in fact, you can find the majority of qualities of Jesus I mentioned represented in the same chapter the verse was pulled from.
Luke 24
New International Reader's Version (NIRV)
Jesus Rises From the Dead
24 It was very early in the morning on the first day of the week. The women took the spices they had prepared. Then they went to the tomb. 2 They found the stone rolled away from it. 3 When they entered the tomb, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. 4 They were wondering about this.
Suddenly two men in clothes as bright as lightning stood beside them. 5 The women were terrified. They bowed down with their faces to the ground.
Then the men said to them, “Why do you look for the living among the dead? 6 Jesus is not here! He has risen! Remember how he told you he would rise. It was while he was still with you in Galilee. 7 He said, ‘The Son of Man must be handed over to sinful people. He must be nailed to a cross. On the third day he will rise from the dead.’”
8 Then the women remembered Jesus’ words.
9 They came back from the tomb. They told all these things to the Eleven and to all the others. 10 Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the others with them were the ones who told the apostles. 11 But the apostles did not believe the women. Their words didn’t make any sense to them.
12 But Peter got up and ran to the tomb. He bent over and saw the strips of linen lying by themselves. Then he went away, wondering what had happened.
On the Road to Emmaus
13 That same day two of Jesus’ followers were going to a village called Emmaus. It was about seven miles from Jerusalem. 14 They were talking with each other about everything that had happened.
15 As they talked about those things, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them. 16 But God kept them from recognizing him.
17 Jesus asked them, “What are you talking about as you walk along?”
They stood still, and their faces were sad. 18 One of them was named Cleopas. He said to Jesus, “You must be a visitor to Jerusalem. If you lived there, you would know the things that have happened there in the last few days.”
19 “What things?” Jesus asked.
“About Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “He was a prophet. He was powerful in what he said and did in the eyes of God and all of the people. 20 The chief priests and our rulers handed Jesus over to be sentenced to death. They nailed him to a cross. 21 But we had hoped that he was the one who was going to set Israel free. Also, it is the third day since all this happened.
22 “Some of our women amazed us too. Early this morning they went to the tomb. 23 But they didn’t find his body. So they came and told us what they had seen. They saw angels, who said Jesus was alive. 24 Then some of our friends went to the tomb. They saw it was empty, just as the women had said. They didn’t see Jesus’ body there.”
25 Jesus said to them, “How foolish you are! How long it takes you to believe all that the prophets said! 26 Didn’t the Christ have to suffer these things and then receive his glory?”
27 Jesus explained to them what was said about himself in all the Scriptures. He began with Moses and all the Prophets.
28 The two men approached the village where they were going. Jesus acted as if he were going farther. 29 But they tried hard to keep him from leaving. They said, “Stay with us. It is nearly evening. The day is almost over.” So he went in to stay with them.
30 He joined them at the table. Then he took bread and gave thanks. He broke it and began to give it to them. 31 Their eyes were opened, and they recognized him. But then he disappeared from their sight.
32 They said to each other, “He talked with us on the road. He opened the Scriptures to us. Weren’t our hearts burning inside us during that time?”
33 They got up and returned at once to Jerusalem. There they found the Eleven and those with them. They were all gathered together. 34 They were saying, “It’s true! The Lord has risen! He has appeared to Simon!” 35 Then the two of them told what had happened to them on the way. They told how they had recognized Jesus when he broke the bread.
Jesus Appears to the Disciples
36 The disciples were still talking about this when Jesus himself suddenly stood among them. He said, “May peace be with you!”
37 They were surprised and terrified. They thought they were seeing a ghost.
38 Jesus said to them, “Why are you troubled? Why do you have doubts in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is really I! Touch me and see. A ghost does not have a body or bones. But you can see that I do.”
40 After he said that, he showed them his hands and feet. 41 But they still did not believe it. They were amazed and filled with joy.
So Jesus asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?”
42 They gave him a piece of cooked fish. 43 He took it and ate it in front of them.
44 Jesus said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you. Everything written about me must happen. Everything written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms must come true.”
45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written. The Christ will suffer. He will rise from the dead on the third day. 47 His followers will preach in his name. They will tell others to turn away from their sins and be forgiven. People from every nation will hear it, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You have seen these things with your own eyes.
49 “I am going to send you what my Father has promised. But for now, stay in the city. Stay there until you have received power from heaven.”
Jesus Is Taken Up Into Heaven
50 Jesus led his disciples out to the area near Bethany. Then he lifted up his hands and blessed them. 51 While he was blessing them, he left them. He was taken up into heaven.
52 Then they worshiped him. With great joy, they returned to Jerusalem. 53 Every day they went to the temple, praising God.
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The above hardly helps you prove Jesus as 'god', in fact quite the opposite.
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The above hardly helps you prove Jesus as 'god', in fact quite the opposite.
Jesus is three in one,He is a god, a son and a spirit all in one.
Just like humans, there are males,females and animals all in one.
Just like cars, there are cars, trucks and planes all in one.
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The above hardly helps you prove Jesus as 'god', in fact quite the opposite.
You're absolutely correct that in and of itself the chapter isn't conclusive proof, but it does show he is far more than a prophet...the focus of your post.
I post only for others that might read so that they can understand and not be misguided.
Blessings,
MOS
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Jesus is three in one,He is a god, a son and a spirit all in one.
Just like humans, there are males,females and animals all in one.
Just like cars, there are cars, trucks and planes all in one.
Hey stingray,
Hope you are well.
What you posted above is unfortunately not correct in regards to the trinity of God. Jesus is not the Holy Spirit, but he is one of three persons of a single God. The trinity of God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Jesus is the Son of God, but he possesses a dual nature in that he is divine and human a concept termed as the hypostatic union. Each person of the trinity is coequal and coeternal and all one God.
We exist in a creation of trinities so it's not all that surprising that the creator is also trinity in nature. We have past, present and future states of time. All differently purposed, but all one time. We have three states of matter in solid, gas and liquid....all matter, but all differently purposed. Space is also composed of height, depth and width....all different, but all distinct natures of space.
Have a good one!!
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(http://www.piney.com/TrinityJesus.gif)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b3/Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English.svg/220px-Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English.svg.png)
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Exodus 20:4
Too bad the bible is ultimately against the trinity and it all comes down to Paul's writings and the church (man made conjectures).
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1
(http://www.piney.com/TrinityJesus.gif)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b3/Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English.svg/220px-Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English.svg.png)
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Exodus 20:4
Too bad the bible is ultimately against the trinity and it all comes down to Paul's writings and the church (man made conjectures).
1st image is an incorrect representation of the trinity. I get what they're going for, but it ultimately fails to convey an accurate representation as Father and Spirit are both spirit.
2nd image is a now classic diagram of the trinity...it's actually quite good!! Dr. White refers to it within his book on the trinity.
These are not graven images or idols that are worshipped....the first one is just a bad picture LOL. This verse and others tied to it in Leviticus and Deuteronomy speak out against the creation of false idols and worshipping them. The ark of covenant was built with very specific instructions from God and contained on top of it were golden images of angels. The ark itself wasn't worshipped, but God was.
Last sentence is just fallacious, good ole fashion "trinity trollin" and already been repeatedly addressed and corrected by myself and others...dead horse beaten and beaten and beaten and beaten.......
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Hey stingray,
Hope you are well.
What you posted above is unfortunately not correct in regards to the trinity of God. Jesus is not the Holy Spirit, but he is one of three persons of a single God. The trinity of God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Jesus is the Son of God, but he possesses a dual nature in that he is divine and human a concept termed as the hypostatic union. Each person of the trinity is coequal and coeternal and all one God.
We exist in a creation of trinities so it's not all that surprising that the creator is also trinity in nature. We have past, present and future states of time. All differently purposed, but all one time. We have three states of matter in solid, gas and liquid....all matter, but all differently purposed. Space is also composed of height, depth and width....all different, but all distinct natures of space.
Have a good one!!
“Oh bliss! Bliss and heaven! Oh, it was gorgeousness and gorgeousity made flesh. It was like a bird of rarest-spun heaven metal or like silvery wine flowing in a spaceship, gravity all nonsense now. As I slooshied, I knew such lovely pictures!”
— A Clockwork Orange: Alex describes Beethoven’s Ninth Symphony
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I really liked your post M.O.S... in case the above wasn't clear.
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Jesus is three in one,He is a god, a son and a spirit all in one.
Just like humans, there are males,females and animals all in one.
Just like cars, there are cars, trucks and planes all in one.
Christ, what a shitty analogy.
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I really liked your post M.O.S... in case the above wasn't clear.
;)