Author Topic: Jesus did NOT die on the cross: what Islam gets RIGHT about Christianity.  (Read 6679 times)

Phantom Spunker

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My brothers and sisters,

When Muslims and Christians come together to engage in healthy theological debates, they often deteriorate into acrimonious and petty squabbles. Indeed, it is the inherently contestable nature of these topics that oftentimes makes agreement seem like an impossibility. That's why today I'd rather focus on something that isn't controversial. I am, of course, referring to the fact that Jesus was not crucified.

Q4:157 states:

And for their saying [JEWS], 'Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah.' And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but another was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

For sure, the Jews intended to crucify Jesus that day. And, indeed, a crucifixion took place. But it was Allah who intervened and allowed a disciple to take on the appearance of Jesus and assume his place on that lonely wooden tower.

The reason Allah saved him, is that Jesus, great messenger of Allah, shall return during the end times to fulfill the teachings of the Quran and Sunnah and kill the False Messiah:

'By Allah, the son of Mary will descend as a just ruler. He will abolish the cross, kill the swine, and annul the tribute, but he will leave the she-camel such that no one collects from it. He will cause rancor, hatred, and envy to disappear, and he will call people to give their wealth in charity but no one will need it.'

The second coming of Jesus shall bring with it a great return to justice, and we Muslims shall see the true kingdom of Allah re-established on Earth.


113 al-Ṭabarī, Jāmiʻ al-Bayān ‘an Ta’wīl al-Qur’ān, 9:368 verse 4:157.
Muslim, Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim, 1:136 #155, kitab al-Iman bab nuzul ‘Isa ibn Maryam.

AbrahamG

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I credit Jesus personally for bringing me to Allah.  The joy I felt when I found out that he did not suffer and die needlessly was so overwhelming that save for watching my son come into this world I've never shed more tears of joy. 

Taffin

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I credit Jesus personally for bringing me to Allah.  The joy I felt when I found out that he did not suffer and die needlessly was so overwhelming that save for watching my son come into this world I've never shed more tears of joy.

Careful Abu Ibrahim - Allah makes strong men who do not cry - tears are for the weak women while they have the honour of bearing our Sons - not for us while we wait for news of the birth with the Ummah at our Mosque

Shaitan brings the weakness of weeping only to men who he is trying to tempt into the evil of h0mosexuality and all its perversions (such as wearing pink)

Be strong and resist such temptation - I will pray for you 🤲🏽
T

IroNat

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All nonsense.

AbrahamG

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Careful Abu Ibrahim - Allah makes strong men who do not cry - tears are for the weak women while they have the honour of bearing our Sons - not for us while we wait for news of the birth with the Ummah at our Mosque

Shaitan brings the weakness of weeping only to men who he is trying to tempt into the evil of h0mosexuality and all its perversions (such as wearing pink)

Be strong and resist such temptation - I will pray for you 🤲🏽

I must right this ship.  ASAP. 

Phantom Spunker

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I credit Jesus personally for bringing me to Allah.  The joy I felt when I found out that he did not suffer and die needlessly was so overwhelming that save for watching my son come into this world I've never shed more tears of joy.

To be honest, Abe, that's how I feel too. I posted a few months ago about some important research documenting that Jesus got a serious raping, but some anonymous rape-shamer deleted it. However, I'm glad someone as meek and gentle as Jesus didn't get emasculated in that way. True, some poor disciple had to massively take one for the team instead, but rather him than JC.

All nonsense.

IroNat, brother, I used to think like you. I know the cold skepticism of atheists. I was one. If you couldn't empirically demonstrate something to me, then it wasn't real. But let me ask you this: is love not real? I'd argue that it is. We cannot easily point to something as evidence of its existence, and yet it drives all that we do. Ever since I entered that mosque and asked for Allah to guide me, I have been overcome with a sense of love and purpose that I've never felt before. Remember this:

It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye
 

AbrahamG

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To be honest, Abe, that's how I feel too. I posted a few months ago about some important research documenting that Jesus got a serious raping, but some anonymous rape-shamer deleted it. However, I'm glad someone as meek and gentle as Jesus didn't get emasculated in that way. True, some poor disciple had to massively take one for the team instead, but rather him than JC.

IroNat, brother, I used to think like you. I know the cold skepticism of atheists. I was one. If you couldn't empirically demonstrate something to me, then it wasn't real. But let me ask you this: is love not real? I'd argue that it is. We cannot easily point to something as evidence of its existence, and yet it drives all that we do. Ever since I entered that mosque and asked for Allah to guide me, I have been overcome with a sense of love and purpose that I've never felt before. Remember this:

It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye

I'd like to think that justice was served and the disciple who took one for the team was Judas aka the traitor.  The important thing is that Jesus wasn't harmed and will be among us soon.  Insha'allah!

Teutonic Knight

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The important thing is that Jesus wasn't harmed and will be among us soon. 




HI WIGGS, how SOON  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Humble Narcissist

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Jesus Christ as a man never existed.

Agnostic007

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Jesus Christ as a man never existed.

As much as it pains me to say this, secular scholars are of the mind that there is not enough evidence to discount he existed.. though of course the stories of his miracles can be discounted due to lack of support

I say this after extensive research for myself as a Christian way back in the 1990's. I can safely say the miracles reported in the bible have zero support, but the fact a man named Jesus, brother of James, is mentioned in secular writings leads me to believe it is more likely he eixisted. I can give you the supporting books upon request

Humble Narcissist

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As much as it pains me to say this, secular scholars are of the mind that there is not enough evidence to discount he existed.. though of course the stories of his miracles can be discounted due to lack of support

I say this after extensive research for myself as a Christian way back in the 1990's. I can safely say the miracles reported in the bible have zero support, but the fact a man named Jesus, brother of James, is mentioned in secular writings leads me to believe it is more likely he eixisted. I can give you the supporting books upon request
Watch the documentary: Jesus Never Existed  on Youtube.

Agnostic007

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Watch the documentary: Jesus Never Existed  on Youtube.

I did.. awhile back. and I also read some books from scholars arguing the premise.. the end result was, if they could not definitively proof it false, they had to accept it. Having said that, they were pretty much in agreement that the miracles attributed to him were unlikely

So it goes, A man named Jesus "likely" existed. he may have had a brother named James. That's about as far as the scholars will go.


Agnostic007

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Oddly Only in one book, Mathew, is there a mention of upon Jesus' crucifixion, the earth shook, and graves were opened up and dead bodies walked among the city. This is important to me because there were pretty good records kept at that time and this wonderous, miraculous occurrence in a major city where the gospel says "They were seen by many" only appears in the book of Matthew and never again in the gospels nor ANY historic record ever... makes a person wonder... such a great thing.. dead bodies rising from graves and walking through the city.. no one bothered to write about it other than Matthew? 

Agnostic007

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So can we all agree, based on provable facts, this is all horse shit?

Humble Narcissist

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Oddly Only in one book, Mathew, is there a mention of upon Jesus' crucifixion, the earth shook, and graves were opened up and dead bodies walked among the city. This is important to me because there were pretty good records kept at that time and this wonderous, miraculous occurrence in a major city where the gospel says "They were seen by many" only appears in the book of Matthew and never again in the gospels nor ANY historic record ever... makes a person wonder... such a great thing.. dead bodies rising from graves and walking through the city.. no one bothered to write about it other than Matthew?
And what happened to these resurrected beings? Are they still walking among us.

Agnostic007

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And what happened to these resurrected beings? Are they still walking among us.

I think that is the cool thing about fiction. It doesn't have to make sense. Only when you try to sell it as fact does it fall apart. For example, your question.. I never gave it any thought as I knew the author of Matthew made it up. But what if he didn't? No other historian mentions this amazing miracle, and yes, what happened to those resurrected? Did they go home?  What if the husband or wife had remarried? That would be awkward..

Humble Narcissist

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I think that is the cool thing about fiction. It doesn't have to make sense. Only when you try to sell it as fact does it fall apart. For example, your question.. I never gave it any thought as I knew the author of Matthew made it up. But what if he didn't? No other historian mentions this amazing miracle, and yes, what happened to those resurrected? Did they go home?  What if the husband or wife had remarried? That would be awkward..
The Mormons believe the apostle John is still walking the Earth because Jesus said he would live to see Christ's return in his lifetime. They never considered the prophecy might have just failed to come true. They also believe in 3 Nephites are still roaming the Earth as we speak as well. There are all kinds of stories where people have interacted with these beings. ::)

Man of Steel

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Re: Jesus did NOT die on the cross: what Islam gets RIGHT about Christianity.
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2023, 08:11:51 AM »
Oddly Only in one book, Mathew, is there a mention of upon Jesus' crucifixion, the earth shook, and graves were opened up and dead bodies walked among the city. This is important to me because there were pretty good records kept at that time and this wonderous, miraculous occurrence in a major city where the gospel says "They were seen by many" only appears in the book of Matthew and never again in the gospels nor ANY historic record ever... makes a person wonder... such a great thing.. dead bodies rising from graves and walking through the city.. no one bothered to write about it other than Matthew? 

Aquinas, Origen, Ignatius and others wrote about it.

Agnostic007

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Re: Jesus did NOT die on the cross: what Islam gets RIGHT about Christianity.
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2023, 12:36:03 PM »
Aquinas, Origen, Ignatius and others wrote about it.

The problem is, your examples were a hundred years to 1000 years after the fact. None witnessed it. Not one historian alive at the time bothered to write about it

falco

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Re: Jesus did NOT die on the cross: what Islam gets RIGHT about Christianity.
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2023, 12:58:38 PM »
My brothers and sisters,

When Muslims and Christians come together to engage in healthy theological debates, they often deteriorate into acrimonious and petty squabbles. Indeed, it is the inherently contestable nature of these topics that oftentimes makes agreement seem like an impossibility. That's why today I'd rather focus on something that isn't controversial. I am, of course, referring to the fact that Jesus was not crucified.

Q4:157 states:

And for their saying [JEWS], 'Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah.' And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but another was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

For sure, the Jews intended to crucify Jesus that day. And, indeed, a crucifixion took place. But it was Allah who intervened and allowed a disciple to take on the appearance of Jesus and assume his place on that lonely wooden tower.

The reason Allah saved him, is that Jesus, great messenger of Allah, shall return during the end times to fulfill the teachings of the Quran and Sunnah and kill the False Messiah:

'By Allah, the son of Mary will descend as a just ruler. He will abolish the cross, kill the swine, and annul the tribute, but he will leave the she-camel such that no one collects from it. He will cause rancor, hatred, and envy to disappear, and he will call people to give their wealth in charity but no one will need it.'

The second coming of Jesus shall bring with it a great return to justice, and we Muslims shall see the true kingdom of Allah re-established on Earth.


113 al-Ṭabarī, Jāmiʻ al-Bayān ‘an Ta’wīl al-Qur’ān, 9:368 verse 4:157.
Muslim, Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim, 1:136 #155, kitab al-Iman bab nuzul ‘Isa ibn Maryam.
If they regurgitate that at the mosque, then it must be true.

Humble Narcissist

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Re: Jesus did NOT die on the cross: what Islam gets RIGHT about Christianity.
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2023, 12:54:43 AM »
The problem is, your examples were a hundred years to 1000 years after the fact. None witnessed it. Not one historian alive at the time bothered to write about it
They must not have considered a man rising from the dead noteworthy.  :-\

Man of Steel

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Re: Jesus did NOT die on the cross: what Islam gets RIGHT about Christianity.
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2023, 01:41:41 PM »
The problem is, your examples were a hundred years to 1000 years after the fact. None witnessed it. Not one historian alive at the time bothered to write about it

That is true, but it isn't a problem.  Field of textual criticism vets this out.  Significant gap in time between actual event and recording of event does not disqualify it in modern scholarship.  Truly, the primary and consistent exception to that idea is anything that validates Jesus.  There scholarship invokes any liberties needed to justify a disqualification of Jesus.  Still a huge portion of the written Christian corpus was purposefully, destroyed by Nero.  Literally volumes or libraries worth of written materials destroyed via Christian hatred.  Further, Jewish scholarship and Christian figures were of little to no value by non-Christian intellectuals in that period (funny how that persists to this day).  It was only intervention by Constantine that Christianity received a fighting chance to preserve itself and thrive.

Agnostic007

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Re: Jesus did NOT die on the cross: what Islam gets RIGHT about Christianity.
« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2023, 05:09:17 PM »
That is true, but it isn't a problem.  Field of textual criticism vets this out.  Significant gap in time between actual event and recording of event does not disqualify it in modern scholarship.  Truly, the primary and consistent exception to that idea is anything that validates Jesus.  There scholarship invokes any liberties needed to justify a disqualification of Jesus.  Still a huge portion of the written Christian corpus was purposefully, destroyed by Nero.  Literally volumes or libraries worth of written materials destroyed via Christian hatred.  Further, Jewish scholarship and Christian figures were of little to no value by non-Christian intellectuals in that period (funny how that persists to this day).  It was only intervention by Constantine that Christianity received a fighting chance to preserve itself and thrive.

There is a lot of information available that addresses the dead saints rising claim. Obviously it was a fabrication. But it's only obvious when you use logic and common sense. To blindly accept it because it's in the bible is not logical not showing common sense. But if you want to believe it happened, doesn't bother me. Knock yourself out.