Understanding Atheism

[loco]

Hey, it's fully possible but very unlikely.

You're not very familiar with philosophy of science, are you?

"Philosophy of science is about as useful to scientists as ornithology is to birds." - Richard Feynman

http://www.diracdelta.co.uk/science/source/q/u/quotes/source.html

My conversion and its effects for the past 24 years a placebo effect?  Very unlikely!  

[lovemonkey]

"Philosophy of science is about as useful to scientists as ornithology is to birds." - Richard Feynman

http://www.diracdelta.co.uk/science/source/q/u/quotes/source.html

My conversion and its effects for the past 24 years a placebo effect?  Very unlikely!  

But you can't know for sure, that's the whole point! Try to be at least open to the idea that it is a placebo effect.

What would you say to people that are absolutely convinced they've been blessed by Vishnu? Your argument is no stronger than theirs.

[loco]

But you can't know for sure, that's the whole point! Try to be at least open to the idea that it is a placebo effect.

What would you say to people that are absolutely convinced they've been blessed by Vishnu? Your argument is no stronger than theirs.

Same way that you can't know for sure that you are not imagining this very discussion.

By faith in the Bible, I can know for sure that Vishnu can't bless anyone.  By faith I can know for sure that my conversion is a miracle from Jesus Christ and not a placebo effect.  And it's not just faith and it's not just the Bible anymore, but my personal experience and the effects of my conversion that let me know for sure.

[lovemonkey]

Same way that you can't know for sure that you are not imagining this very discussion.

Good good, you're starting to get it. Our imagination can come up with the most extraordinary things and our only way of filtering them out is to put probabilities on them. But that's all we can do. I'd say it's very unlikely that I'm imagining this conversation, same with me being 95 years old. I'd say it's very likely that there is no god, given the extreme lack of evidence to support such a thesis.

By faith in the Bible, I can know for sure that Vishnu can't bless anyone.  By faith I can know for sure that my conversion is a miracle from Jesus Christ and not a placebo effect.  And it's not just faith and it's not just the Bible anymore, but my personal experience and the effects of my conversion that let me know for sure.

Would you admit that as an argument, it all collapses when you mention the word faith? Faith and knowing something for sure do NOT mix well. Your faith is no better as an argument than the faith of those who believe in Vishnu.

By my book, faith is a belief in something without evidence, or contrary to the evidence. It's a suspension of logic that you make by choice... it holds zero value when trying to prove something.

[loco]

Good good, you're starting to get it. Our imagination can come up with the most extraordinary things and our only way of filtering them out is to put probabilities on them. But that's all we can do. I'd say it's very unlikely that I'm imagining this conversation, same with me being 95 years old. I'd say it's very likely that there is no god, given the extreme lack of evidence to support such a thesis.

Would you admit that as an argument, it all collapses when you mention the word faith? Faith and knowing something for sure do NOT mix well. Your faith is no better as an argument than the faith of those who believe in Vishnu.

By my book, faith is a belief in something without evidence, or contrary to the evidence. It's a suspension of logic that you make by choice... it holds zero value when trying to prove something.

You can't know or even begin to understand faith or what it is.  Faith in itself is evidence.  I have it.  It was given to me by God.  You obviously don't have it.  Don't ask me why.

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God

[lovemonkey]

You can't know or even begin to understand faith or what it is. 

So that makes it even less of an argument.

Faith in itself is evidence.

No, it's not. It's a construct of your mind.

It was given to me by God.

Given the discussion we just had about placebo effect, you can't say that for sure.

Don't ask me why.

That's what a closed mind would do - not ask questions. A closed mind would also not explain its reasoning and just say "Don't ask me why".

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God

Holy scriptures 

[loco]

So that makes it even less of an argument.

Why?

No, it's not. It's a construct of your mind.

No, it's not. 

Given the discussion we just had about placebo effect, you can't say that for sure.

Given the discussion we just had, by faith I can indeed say for sure.

That's what a closed mind would do - not ask questions. A closed mind would also not explain its reasoning and just say "Don't ask me why".

Not at all.  Just saying you may receive faith yourself in time. 

Holy scriptures 

Exactly!

[lovemonkey]

Why?

If only you are able to define what faith is to you, then it could never translate into an argument that someone else would understand.

No, it's not.

That's your opinion and not fact.

Given the discussion we just had, by faith I can indeed say for sure.

Please do elaborate. Your statement here doesn't make sense at first glance.

Exactly!

I'm sure you're more than aware how manipulated by humans your holy scripture is. I hope you don't take it at face value.

[loco]

If only you are able to define what faith is to you, then it could never translate into an argument that someone else would understand.

That's your opinion and not fact.

Please do elaborate. Your statement here doesn't make sense at first glance.

I'm sure you're more than aware how manipulated by humans your holy scripture is. I hope you don't take it at face value.

You are merely stating your opinion.  Faith is defined in the Bible above, and it is all the evidence I need to know for sure that there is a God who performs miracles today.  You maybe an atheist today, but like many atheists before you, you yourself may one day become a man of faith too.  The Bible was written by men, inspired by God.  There are plenty of discussions on this board about the so called "human manipulation" of the Bible.  You can start another thread about this if you wish!

[lovemonkey]

You are merely stating your opinion.  Faith is defined in the Bible above, and it is all the evidence I need to know for sure that there is a God who performs miracles today.  You maybe an atheist today, but like many atheists before you, you yourself may one day become a man of faith too.  The Bible was written by men, inspired by God.  There are plenty of discussions on this board about the so called "human manipulation" of the Bible.  You can start another thread about this if you wish!

If that's all the evidence you need then I feel sorry for you. I really do.

Sure a lot of atheists have converted... hundreds of thousands, even perhaps a couple of millions. But those numbers are merely a fart in a hurricane when compared to how many religious people have turned agnostic or atheist within the last couple of hundred years. For some odd reason atheism tends to spread when the literacy rate goes up... hmmmmmmmm.

I do not wish to beat a dead horse.

[loco]

If that's all the evidence you need then I feel sorry for you. I really do.

Sure a lot of atheists have converted... hundreds of thousands, even perhaps a couple of millions. But those numbers are merely a fart in a hurricane when compared to how many religious people have turned agnostic or atheist within the last couple of hundred years. For some odd reason atheism tends to spread when the literacy rate goes up... hmmmmmmmm.

I do not wish to beat a dead horse.

Thanks, but please don't feel sorry for me!  I am very satisfied with my life.  And it's no surprise, people who attend church often are very happy, you know?    

Study: Happiness is having friends at church

12/7/2010
By Michelle Healy, USA TODAY

Attending religious services regularly and having close friends in the congregation are key to having a happier, more satisfying life, a study finds.

http://www.usatoday.com/yourlife/mind-soul/spirituality/2010-12-07-happyreligion07_ST_N.htm


Oh, and atheists are the minority in this world.  Just saying...not that it matters since truth is not a democracy.

And the literacy rate has nothing to do with being theist or atheist since there are millions of highly educated theists in the world today.

[lovemonkey]

Thanks, but please don't feel sorry for me!  I am very satisfied with my life.  And it's no surprise, people who attend church often are very happy, you know?    

Study: Happiness is having friends at church

12/7/2010
By Michelle Healy, USA TODAY

Attending religious services regularly and having close friends in the congregation are key to having a happier, more satisfying life, a study finds.

http://www.usatoday.com/yourlife/mind-soul/spirituality/2010-12-07-happyreligion07_ST_N.htm


Oh, and atheists are the minority in this world.  Just saying...not that it matters since truth is not a democracy.

And the literacy rate has nothing to do with being theist or atheist since there are millions of highly educated theists in the world today.

Yes there are, but that says nothing about the overall trend. America is one big exception for some odd reason... but exception is the word here. You can't deny that education over time dissolves the authority of the church and finally faith itself. If you don't believe that then I suggest you go read some history books.

http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=pzuckerman_26_5

"The twenty-five nations characterized by organic atheism with the highest proportion of nonbelievers are listed in Table 1. When looking at standard measures of societal health, we find that they fare remarkably well; highly religious nations fare rather poorly. The 2004 United Nations' Human Development Report, which ranks 177 countries on a "Human Development Index," measures such indicators of societal health as life expectancy, adult literacy, per-capita income, educational attainment, and so on. According to this report, the five top nations were Norway, Sweden, Australia, Canada, and the Netherlands. All had notably high degrees of organic atheism. Furthermore, of the top twenty-five nations, all but Ireland and the United States were top-ranking nonbelieving nations with some of the highest percentages of organic atheism on earth. Conversely, the bottom fifty countries of the "Human Development Index" lacked statistically significant levels of organic atheism."

"Concerning literacy rates, according to the United Nations Report on the World Social Situation (2003), of the thirty-five nations with the highest levels of youth-illiteracy rates (percentage of population ages fifteen to twenty-four who cannot read or write), all were highly religious, with statistically insignificant levels of organic atheism."

[loco]

Yes there are, but that says nothing about the overall trend. America is one big exception for some odd reason... but exception is the word here. You can't deny that education over time dissolves the authority of the church and finally faith itself. If you don't believe that then I suggest you go read some history books.

http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=pzuckerman_26_5

"The twenty-five nations characterized by organic atheism with the highest proportion of nonbelievers are listed in Table 1. When looking at standard measures of societal health, we find that they fare remarkably well; highly religious nations fare rather poorly. The 2004 United Nations' Human Development Report, which ranks 177 countries on a "Human Development Index," measures such indicators of societal health as life expectancy, adult literacy, per-capita income, educational attainment, and so on. According to this report, the five top nations were Norway, Sweden, Australia, Canada, and the Netherlands. All had notably high degrees of organic atheism. Furthermore, of the top twenty-five nations, all but Ireland and the United States were top-ranking nonbelieving nations with some of the highest percentages of organic atheism on earth. Conversely, the bottom fifty countries of the "Human Development Index" lacked statistically significant levels of organic atheism."

"Concerning literacy rates, according to the United Nations Report on the World Social Situation (2003), of the thirty-five nations with the highest levels of youth-illiteracy rates (percentage of population ages fifteen to twenty-four who cannot read or write), all were highly religious, with statistically insignificant levels of organic atheism."

So it follows that literacy causes atheism.   

Then it would be in Christianity's best interest to keep people illiterate, right?

Yet, it has been Christianity that has contributed the most to literacy around the world.  If you don't believe that then I suggest you go read some history books.   

[lovemonkey]

So it follows that literacy causes atheism.  

Then it would be in Christianity's best interest to keep people illiterate, right?

Yet, it has been Christianity that has contributed the most to literacy around the world.  If you don't believe that then I suggest you go read some history books.  

Yes, that's the biggest reason why they insisted on preaching in latin for as long as they could. When translated bibles were made available for everyone to read and not just the priest, a great shift in power took place. It gave people a chance to understand just how ridiculous the stories in the bible really are... so ridiculous that even children question them.

I really don't see what there is to misinterpret here.... Yes, illiteracy breeds ignorance and fear. You were just plain wrong with this statement:

And the literacy rate has nothing to do with being theist or atheist since there are millions of highly educated theists in the world today.

"Concerning literacy rates, according to the United Nations Report on the World Social Situation (2003), of the thirty-five nations with the highest levels of youth-illiteracy rates (percentage of population ages fifteen to twenty-four who cannot read or write), all were highly religious, with statistically insignificant levels of organic atheism."

[loco]

Yes, that's the biggest reason why they insisted on preaching in latin for as long as they could. When translated bibles were made available for everyone to read and not just the priest, a great shift in power took place. It gave people a chance to understand just how ridiculous the stories in the bible really are... so ridiculous that even children question them.

I really don't see what there is to misinterpret here.... Yes, illiteracy breeds ignorance and fear. You were just plain wrong with this statement:

"Concerning literacy rates, according to the United Nations Report on the World Social Situation (2003), of the thirty-five nations with the highest levels of youth-illiteracy rates (percentage of population ages fifteen to twenty-four who cannot read or write), all were highly religious, with statistically insignificant levels of organic atheism."

When translated bibles were made available for everyone to read and not just the priest, people did not become atheists.  They became non-Catholic Christians, Protestants.

As for misinterpreting your statics, you are showing how closed minded you are.  This is right out of the link you posted above:

"The information presented in this discussion in no way proves that high levels of organic atheism cause societal health or that low levels of organic atheism cause societal ills such as poverty or illiteracy."

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=post;quote=5285956;topic=364234.50;num_replies=63;sesc=fb57477a712e89c97b2eb19108e9b92e

Even more interesting from you link:

Suicide Rate
A country's suicide rate stands out as the one indicator of societal health in which religious nations fare much better than secular nations. According to the 2003 World Health Organization's report on international male suicide rates (http://www.who.int/en/), the nations with the lowest rates of suicide were all highly religious, characterized by extremely high levels of theism (usually of the Muslim and Catholic varieties). Of the ten nations with the highest male suicide rates, five were distinctly irreligious nations ranked among the top twenty-five nations listed earlier.

United States
Americans are very religious. Many studies have found that only between 3-7 percent of Americans do not believe in God. Rates of prayer, belief in the divinity of Jesus, belief in the divine origins of the Bible, and rates of church attendance are remarkably robust in the United States, making it the most religious of all Western industrialized nations, with the possible exception of Ireland. When it comes to societal health, the United States certainly fares far better than much of the rest of the world. According to the United Nations' 2004 "Human Development Index" discussed earlier, the United States ranked eighth.

 

[lovemonkey]

When translated bibles were made available for everyone to read and not just the priest, people did not become atheists.  They became non-Catholic Christians, Protestants.

As I said, first step is when the authority of the church is dissolved. The next step is when a larger % of people turn to agnosticism and atheism. With the exception of America, the western world has progressively gotten less religious over time(excluding muslim immigration).

As for misinterpreting your statics, you are showing how closed minded you are.  This is right out of the link you posted above:

"The information presented in this discussion in no way proves that high levels of organic atheism cause societal health or that low levels of organic atheism cause societal ills such as poverty or illiteracy."

Not necessarily cause and effect, but they do seem to come hand in hand, no? Alas, although there are exceptions, the general guideline here seems to be that the more religious a country is, the more likely they're doing poorly.

Suicide Rate
A country's suicide rate stands out as the one indicator of societal health in which religious nations fare much better than secular nations. According to the 2003 World Health Organization's report on international male suicide rates (http://www.who.int/en/), the nations with the lowest rates of suicide were all highly religious, characterized by extremely high levels of theism (usually of the Muslim and Catholic varieties). Of the ten nations with the highest male suicide rates, five were distinctly irreligious nations ranked among the top twenty-five nations listed earlier.

United States
Americans are very religious. Many studies have found that only between 3-7 percent of Americans do not believe in God. Rates of prayer, belief in the divinity of Jesus, belief in the divine origins of the Bible, and rates of church attendance are remarkably robust in the United States, making it the most religious of all Western industrialized nations, with the possible exception of Ireland. When it comes to societal health, the United States certainly fares far better than much of the rest of the world. According to the United Nations' 2004 "Human Development Index" discussed earlier, the United States ranked eighth.

 

If that is so then that is a shame.

[loco]

As I said, first step is when the authority of the church is dissolved. The next step is when a larger % of people turn to agnosticism and atheism. With the exception of America, the western world has progressively gotten less religious over time(excluding muslim immigration).

Not necessarily cause and effect, but they do seem to come hand in hand, no? Alas, although there are exceptions, the general guideline here seems to be that the more religious a country is, the more likely they're doing poorly.

If that is so then that is a shame.

Christians made translated Bibles available to people back then and today as well.  Today, Christians make translated Bibles available to people around the world.  And because many of those people are illiterate, Christians teach them how to read so that these people can read their Bibles.  This has gone on for centuries, thus Christianity has contributed very much to world literacy.  

The literacy rate in South India is very high, higher than the rest of the Nation.  South India's population is mainly Christian.  And their high literacy rate has been attributed to Christianity.  

The US is a developed, industrialized, Western nation with a high literacy rate, and #1 economy in the world.  Oh, and the US happens to be very religious too.

Secular nations have a much higher suicide rate than religious nations.  

What was that about cause and effect?

[lovemonkey]

Christians made translated Bibles available to people back then and today as well.

Bible's were not made readily available until the first effective printing presses came along which happened somewhere around the late 14th - mid 15th century in europe. For people to own books back then was very rare, and literacy even more so. For a long time the only book they had access to was the bible. So there's no denying that the bible played a big role in that, not because of some rare property of the bible itself, but simply because it was pretty much the only book available back then.
But literacy and education turned out to be the downfall of christianity, ironically.

And you did not want to be caught with anything else but christian literature/thinking back in those days.. unless you liked to die a painful death. On a sidenote, christianity has been a pain in europes ass for the longest time, I'm glad to live in a time period where I'm allowed to speak my mind freely about religion and not get persecuted for it.

And because many of those people are illiterate, Christians teach them how to read so that these people can read their Bibles.  This has gone on for centuries, thus Christianity has contributed very much to world literacy.  

The literacy rate in South India is very high, higher than the rest of the Nation.  South India's population is mainly Christian.  And their high literacy rate has been attributed to Christianity.  

See above.

The US is a developed, industrialized, Western nation with a high literacy rate, and #1 economy in the world.  Oh, and the US happens to be very religious too.

Secular nations have a much higher rate of suicide than religious nations.  

What was that about cause and effect?

As that report said, america is an exception. America is 8th on the HDI list with a majority of the top ten being very irreligious countries. At the #1 spot you find Norway, one of the most secular countries in the world. So that argument takes you nowhere.

America also have some of the highest murder rates, 6,5/100,000 population compared to Norway that sits at a meager 0,60. That's about a 10-1 difference. Your prison population rate is also the highest in the entire world. Your infant mortality rate is also below all western standards.

If you use that report to state that suicides rates are higher in secular countries, then you also have to accept the religiosity/illiteracy part. Just as much of a lack of cause and effect in both of them. Which way are you going to have it?

[loco]

Bible's were not made readily available until the first effective printing presses came along which happened somewhere around the late 14th - mid 15th century in europe. For people to own books back then was very rare, and literacy even more so. For a long time the only book they had access to was the bible. So there's no denying that the bible played a big role in that, not because of some rare property of the bible itself, but simply because it was pretty much the only book available back then.
But literacy and education turned out to be the downfall of christianity, ironically.

And you did not want to be caught with anything else but christian literature/thinking back in those days.. unless you liked to die a painful death. On a sidenote, christianity has been a pain in europes ass for the longest time, I'm glad to live in a time period where I'm allowed to speak my mind freely about religion and not get persecuted for it.

Oh yeah, was that so back then?  And what about this?

Today, Christians make translated Bibles available to people around the world.  And because many of those people are illiterate, Christians teach them how to read so that these people can read their Bibles.  This has gone on for centuries, thus Christianity has contributed very much to world literacy.  

The literacy rate in South India is very high, higher than the rest of the Nation.  South India's population is mainly Christian.  And their high literacy rate has been attributed to Christianity.

Way to dismiss Christianity's great contribution to world literacy past and present!

As that report said, america is an exception. America is 8th on the HDI list with a majority of the top ten being very irreligious countries. At the #1 spot you find Norway, one of the most secular countries in the world. So that argument takes you nowhere.

America is not just an exception.  It is a heck of an exception, destroying your theory(literacy = atheism).  America is 1st on the GDP list.  So that argument takes you nowhere.

America also have some of the highest murder rates, 6,5/100,000 population compared to Norway that sits at a meager 0,60. That's about a 10-1 difference. Your prison population rate is also the highest in the entire world. Your infant mortality rate is also below all western standards.

There are many reasons for this and you can't attribute it to theism.

If you use that report to state that suicides rates are higher in secular countries, then you also have to accept the religiosity/illiteracy part. Just as much of a lack of cause and effect in both of them. Which way are you going to have it?

I'm not just using that report.  It is well known that secular nations statistically tend to have a high suicide rate and problems with alcoholism.  

You are the one who brought the literacy = atheism theory based on statistics.  Which way are you going to have it?

[lovemonkey]

Oh yeah, was that so back then?  And what about this?

Same principle, just another place on earth in a different time. They don't have many other books available or just simply can't afford them or it just might not be in their culture, so in that sense it's great that they learn to read. But at the same time they join a desert death cult which is....meh not good.

Way to dismiss Christianity's great contribution to world literacy past and present!

It could just as well have been the Quran, Torah or whatever holy book you can think of in a totalitarian state.

America is not just an exception.  It is a heck of an exception, destroying your theory(literacy = atheism).  America is 1st on the GDP list.  So that argument takes you nowhere.

An exception does not invalidate a general guideline. Most people do well eating a healthy amount of protein, those with kidney problems do not, hence they are an exception. But the recommendation/guideline of eating good amounts of protein still stands. See it's not that hard, is it? Did I really have to put it this way or are you just being slow?

On exactly what GDP list is america #1? If you count the nation as a whole, sure america is on top of the list behind the European Union. That comes as no surprise really given your population and vast natural resources. But on a per capita basis your claim seem to get little support.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29_per_capita

In fact, most of scandinavia seem to spank your american ass on a per capita basis. But that doesn't really say much about religion/atheism since it might as well be a coincidence.

There are many reasons for this and you can't attribute it to theism.

Sure there are but it's hypocritical of you to blame secularism for suicide rates when one might as well blame christianity for higher murder and prison rates.

I'm not just using that report.  It is well known that secular nations statistically tend to have a high suicide rate and problems with alcoholism.   

You are the one who brought the literacy = atheism theory based on statistics.  Which way are you going to have it?

Now you're doing it again.. throwing out claims out of thin air and at the same time dissecting whatever source I put out there like a true hypocrite. "It is well known that secular nations statistically tend to have a high suicide rate and problems with alcoholism. "

Find a study that shows that correlation and I'll just as quickly find another study that links religiosity and illiteracy.


Although the source might seem a little typical for someone like me, here some candy for ya 

http://www.skeptic.com/reading_room/religious-belief-and-societal-health/

[lovemonkey]

Some more candy

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article571206.ece

and

[loco]

You are not as smart as you pretend to be.  I never said atheism = high suicide rate.   I said that by your logic, I could say the same thing using the same statistics.   

None of the statics you posted prove anything, and your sources?  Skeptic.com?  SecularHumanism.org?  Please!   

If you really believe what you are saying here you are either close minded or just lying.

[lovemonkey]

You are not as smart as you pretend to be.  I never said atheism = high suicide rate.   I said that by your logic, I could say the same thing using the same statistics.  

I never claimed to be smart. Arguments should stand on their own, no matter if the person uttering it has down syndrome or can solve a Schrödinger wave equation. I'm pretty sure you were convinced that secularism is strongly correlated to suicide.

It is well known that secular nations statistically tend to have a high suicide rate and problems with alcoholism.

None of the statics you posted prove anything, and your sources?  Skeptic.com?  SecularHumanism.org?  Please!  

If you really believe what you are saying here you are either close minded or just lying.

The studies are ultimately based on other sources, as far as I understand they were not conducted by people affiliated with secular organizations and even if they were, are you calling them liars? Did they make all those numbers up? It's possible but at least try to refute it by showing me some other studies... otherwise I claim victory on this one.

Those studies show a very strong correlation between religiosity and crime no matter how you view them. Why wouldn't I believe that they're likely close to the truth?

EDIT: You basically refuted none of my arguments.

[loco]

I never claimed to be smart. Arguments should stand on their own, no matter if the person uttering it has down syndrome or can solve a Schrödinger wave equation. I'm pretty sure you were convinced that secularism is strongly correlated to suicide.

The studies are ultimately based on other sources, as far as I understand they were not conducted by people affiliated with secular organizations and even if they were, are you calling them liars? Did they make all those numbers up? It's possible but at least try to refute it by showing me some other studies... otherwise I claim victory on this one.

Those studies show a very strong correlation between religiosity and crime no matter how you view them. Why wouldn't I believe that they're likely close to the truth?

You're pretty sure I was convinced that secularism is strongly correlated to suicide?  What makes you so sure?

You keep going back and forth.  Make up your mind.  So do those numbers prove the correlation or not?  If so, are high suicide rates correlated to atheism or not?  Which way are you going to have it?

[lovemonkey]

You're pretty sure I was convinced that secularism is strongly correlated to suicide?  What makes you so sure?

Because you kept repeating the same statement. Unless it was some far fetched irony, I don't see what I'm missing here.

It is well known that secular nations statistically tend to have a high suicide rate and problems with alcoholism.

You keep going back and forth.  Make up your mind.  So do those numbers prove the correlation or not?  If so, are high suicide rates correlated to atheism or not?  Which way are you going to have it?

How exactly am I going back and forth? As we agreed earlier, the numbers don't prove anything, BUT they do demonstrate a strong correlation. High suicide rates might be correlated to atheism, I have no problem accepting that. But if you feel like it, please do find any other studies that shows that correlation.

That's the way I'm going to have it.

Now if you don't mind, please explain why those studies/graphs I posted are false. Because if they ain't, you've got little ground to stand on. Actually you've been steadily avoiding many of my arguments.. to the point I'm starting to wonder if this debate is worth continuing. I'm interested in the discussion while you seem preoccupied with trying to discredit me and avoiding arguments. Sure I toss out a little bit of insults here and there, but I do explain my position and reasoning on every argument.