Why do the magazines' place emphasis on ridiculous training programmes?

[Determinator]

How do they lift, though? You aren't going to improve as a natural if you don't use progressive overload and train with enough intensity.

Obviously, the rate of an average person's gains will start declining after the first couple of years or so, but you can still continue to improve as long as you put in the effort. When I started, I was only around 140 lb, but 18 years later at my peak, I weighed about 220 lb. Everything takes a lot of time when you don't use anabolics.

What, an 80lb improvement, mostly quality? Whatever. Seriously deluded, as confirmed by the 'lots' of uploads of yourself. .

[Cleanest Natural]

What, an 80lb improvement, mostly quality? Whatever. Seriously deluded, as confirmed by the 'lots' of uploads of yourself. .

he's full of shit and he knows it

I been bodybuilding for close to 20 years, competed, trained naturally, on drugs, been trained by professionals, etc ....

No such thing as 15 years of constant progress lol

I am sometimes astounded at the morons claiming this

They are either liars or just plain retarded

In kiwi's case I suspect the first

[Determinator]

he's full of shit and he knows it

I been bodybuilding for close to 20 years, competed, trained naturally, on drugs, been trained by professionals, etc ....

No such thing as 15 years of constant progress lol

I am sometimes astounded at the morons claiming this

They are either liars or just plain retarded

In kiwi's case I suspect the first

I suspect both.

[kiwiol]

he's full of shit and he knows it

I been bodybuilding for close to 20 years, competed, trained naturally, on drugs, been trained by professionals, etc ....

No such thing as 15 years of constant progress lol

I am sometimes astounded at the morons claiming this

They are either liars or just plain retarded

In kiwi's case I suspect the first

I haven't said it's 15 years of constant progress - I specifically mentioned that the rate of your improvement will start to decline after the first couple of years. You can continue to improve your strength and size, by which I don't mean you can keep adding an inch to your arm every year or 2 or anything like that.

Are you telling me that if someone doesn't take drugs, they can't push more weight beyond what they can at the end of the first 3 or 4 years of training? Or that someone will be no better after 15+ years of training than they were after the first 3 or 4 years?

I been bodybuilding for close to 20 years, competed, trained naturally, on drugs, been trained by professionals, etc ....

By your own admission, you took long periods of time off. Not to mention your genetics are above average at best (not your response to hormones, but your capacity to put on size) and that you've never trained as a natural for 5 or more years straight with decent effort. Besides, Vince Goodrum claims the same thing you have in the above quote, so it doesn't mean anything.

I suspect both.

Not surprising, since you don't sound too bright. Carry on.

[kiwiol]

What, an 80lb improvement, mostly quality? Whatever. Seriously deluded, as confirmed by the 'lots' of uploads of yourself. .

No you nimrod. Ronnie Coleman weighed about 200 lb or so when he started lifting and weighed 330 lb at his peak, which is 130 lb of gain. I was about 140 lb when I started lifting at 15 and was 220 lb 2 years ago, when I was 31. I was also about 20% bodyfat, which mean I'd have stepped onstage around 160 - 170 lb if I was competing.

If you think a guy can't weigh 170 lb onstage at 5'8"+ naturally, that's fine - just don't act like you know what you are talking about cause you clearly don't.

[Per Se]

I suspect both.

I don't like these threads about "what is or isn't possible for a nattie", "How big can I get...?" etc etc.

I'm not sure what level you're at and I'm not sure about you attitude.

You laugh at Kiwi, but this guy is a serious lifter who throughout the years has seemingly enjoyed training and made good gains.  Not sure why you say he is deluded for gaining 80lbs??  That's 80lbs over an 18 year period, that's what - just over 4 pounds (on average) gained per year trained. WHAT'S SO HARD TO BELIEVE ABOUT THAT?  

Since I began training I've put on 55lbs, and I'm still quite a long way from where I wana be. When I'm there, I guess I'll have gained 70lbs or so from my starting point. But I will get there I have no doubt about that.

You can't always pay people like Sevastase too much mind...I just read what he recommended you to do, and if he does that....He really doesn't train very hard at all - and I would strongly advise you not to follow that particular plan.

[njflex]

i trained legs and after finishing hamstrings 2 guys were still doing chest ,after 4 exercising in i started to see them still going,they were doing drop sets on inclines smith i figured then they have to be done nooo!they did 3 more exercises after that ,total 7 exercises chest alone sets even with avg 3 must have been with drops 25/30 .

[pumpster]

You can't always pay people like Sevastase too much mind...I just read what he recommended you to do, and if he does that....He really doesn't train very hard at all - and I would strongly advise you not to follow that particular plan.

lol train using seve's no intensity plan coupled with an insane steroid protocol and unlock the secrets to looking just like him. Oh man that's too funny.

Obviously kiwiol's got the cogent well thought out approach and has actually trained seriously overr a long period of time.

Not surprising, since you don't sound too bright. Carry on.

lol seve according to these geniuses has gone from the reality of mediocre genetics to above average genetics.

[Per Se]

lol train using seve's no intensity plan coupled with an insane steroid protocol and unlock the secrets to looking just like him. Oh man that's too funny.

Obviously kiwiol's got the cogent well thought out approach and has actually trained seriously overr a long period of time.

LOL exactly!!

[kiwiol]

I don't like these threads about "what is or isn't possible for a nattie", "How big can I get...?" etc etc.

I'm not sure what level you're at and I'm not sure about you attitude.

You laugh at Kiwi, but this guy is a serious lifter who throughout the years has seemingly enjoyed training and made good gains.  Not sure why you say he is deluded for gaining 80lbs??  That's 80lbs over an 18 year period, that's what - just over 4 pounds (on average) gained per year trained. WHAT'S SO HARD TO BELIEVE ABOUT THAT?  

Since I began training I've put on 55lbs, and I'm still quite a long way from where I wana be. When I'm there, I guess I'll have gained 70lbs or so from my starting point. But I will get there I have no doubt about that.

You can't always pay people like Sevastase too much mind...I just read what he recommended you to do, and if he does that....He really doesn't train very hard at all - and I would strongly advise you not to follow that particular plan.

Thanks man. I'm not claiming you can add an inch to your arm or a plate to your deadlift every year, but if you keep pushing yourself, you are going to make some kind of gain at some humble level. Sure, you'll hit a plateau like everyone, but you can break through it as long as your approach is sensible.

I remember the first time I went into a gym, I couldn't even lift an Olympic barbell off the floor with a plate on each side (135 lb). At my peak, I deadlifted 540 lb for 4, which was my best lift (my squat is not as good and bench is my worst lift). It took me over 12 years to get to 5 plates and it was difficult as fcuk.

For Sevastase, it's possible for him to know that he was a Roman gladiator in his previous life hundreds of years ago, but not for a guy with good genetics to have 19" arms naturally after 15+ years of training

Obviously kiwiol's got the cogent well thought out approach and has actually trained seriously overr a long period of time.

Yup. Lifting is the only physical "sporting" activity I do and I always try and lift as intensely as anyone out there does. How can someone who is a beginner or another who hasn't lifted consistently for even 5 years tell a guy who has 15+ years of serious lifting under his belt that he's lying? It's not like I'm claiming that I'm going to win the Mr Olympia or anything.

[MCWAY]

Why oh why do the likes of Flex, MD etc always have routines of the *pros,* which is totally ridiculous for the average 'natural' trainer, who would rapidly overtrain and gain nothing from such routines. We recall that, in general, such magazines are primarily targeted at the beginner, just starting out (hence the silly repitition of articles: choose you carb sources etc...how many times??), hence are probably 'natural' at that stage. Doing 24 sets etc for biceps is just ridiculous guidance if one is a beginning 'natural' and it may go some way to explain why so many beginners give up after 6 months to a year, after investing a lot of cash in protein powders etc, following the routines of the *pros,* and are gobsmacked at their lack of any real development.

The readers are often curious as to how their favorite bodybuilders train. But, where do these articles indicate that the average natural trainer should train exactly like that particular bodybuilder? IT DOESN'T.

In fact, if you read some of the articles in the magazines, it has information on how beginner and intermediate lifters should train and eat, in order to make good gains.

When you have a 20-inch arm, it's going to take more to stimulate it than a 15 or 16-inch one. I've been reading magazines for years and I've NEVER seen an artcle suggesting that someone just starting out training should mimick the high-volume routine of a professional bodybuilder. In fact, it was a beginner's article, written by Mike Mentzer, in a 1988 issue of Muscle and Fitness, that got me started with weight training 20 years ago.

[Cleanest Natural]

yawn

you fucking juiced you midget

with your genes you'd still be a twink

post your pic with the blonde at the table and the ones where you're jacked on hormones

your credibility is zero

I absolutely pwn you in strength size and genetics the difference is : I admit to the exact dosages and duration

kiwiol : " I'm natural and been steadily progressing over the last 72 years through constant training dieting hard work and desciplene... "  

stop the lies man ...you juiced and youre clueless as to what's going on if you insist on these retarded statements

get a fucking life

[kiwiol]

yawn

you fucking juiced you midget

with your genes you'd still be a twink

post your pic with the blonde at the table and the ones where you're jacked on hormones

your credibility is zero

I absolutely pwn you in strength size and genetics the difference is : I admit to the exact dosages and duration

kiwiol : " I'm natural and been steadily progressing over the last 72 years through constant training dieting hard work and desciplene... "  

stop the lies man ...you juiced and youre clueless as to what's going on if you insist on these retarded statements

get a fucking like

Hahahahaha

[Per Se]

yawn

you fucking juiced you midget

with your genes you'd still be a twink

post your pic with the blonde at the table and the ones where you're jacked on hormones

your credibility is zero

I absolutely pwn you in strength size and genetics the difference is : I admit to the exact dosages and duration

kiwiol : " I'm natural and been steadily progressing over the last 72 years through constant training dieting hard work and desciplene... "  

stop the lies man ...you juiced and youre clueless as to what's going on if you insist on these retarded statements

get a fucking like

No, you're not credible....seemingly anyone with a better build than you takes steroids 

[JOHN MATRIX]

thats about as fine a butthole as ive seen. perfect skin. all round perfect. POST MORE PICS!!!!

[just_a_pilgrim]

Yes, a good reply.
I seemed to have suffered the same affect. After about 3 years I was at my ''biggest'' (which for an ecto isn't great, but people that hadn't seem me in a while would comment). Since it has been the same old same old, no matter what routines/diets that i try. We sometimes look and think 'hang on, are my traps getting a tad bigger there?, but it is just all in the mind, probably. In fact, about 2 years ago i went on a so-called 'ripping phase.' yes, i got my abs up more, but i lost a lot of muscle, and i haven't got it back to the 'glory' days. How do the *pros* manage to get ripped and still keep all of the muscle? Is it drugs again here too?
Is this what happens to nearly all naturals? They never really get much bigger after the first few years? Others' have commented that once they reached their plateau, as they increased their calories a touch, they got a bit around the midsection, even if the increased calories were small and quality.

Pretty much same for me, after 3 years natural i wasn't going anywhere (juiced after 4 for 4 years)

I tried a lot of things like lower volume to recover more but at that point it all dried up

Gear will help hold muscle when dieting but you will still lose some, i stay very lean nowadays, pretty much contest lean, i don't look massive with a shirt on, if i ever blow up even 5-10 pounds it is very noticeable, that's basically the sacrifice you have to be that lean, if you want to walk around 'massive' put on 20 pounds but you won't look as impressive underneath, maybe just bigger with a shirt on (the general public has no idea however).

Look at Sev's physique when he is at his biggest, great abs, not a massive guy but he could walk around bigger and less cut like a lot of permabulkers do. I think those guys would be suprised how much they would have to lose to actually be lean.

increasing your calories over what you burn will put on some fat whether it be clean or not

After the natural gains dry up you will gain more maturity and quality but that's it, it's the same for long term juicers really like Dex or Priest, Dex though seemed to gain a little bit in the last 10 years.

I am replying like Sev did i thought it was very readable 

[Ursus]

In the past year I have added about 10kg to my bench pres (injury) my first year training i got to a 275lb press for one rep.

In teh next 4 years (littered with injurie from being stupid) I have only added 100lbs. In my next 4 I maybe only expect 50lbs. Maybe teh 4 years after that another 20lbs who knows.

Whilst I will never make incredible progress again I would like to think that I will make some for of progress - progress of any sort be it 1lb or 1 rep is still loving in right direction!

[Cleanest Natural]

 

liers and losers all gnging up on me in this thread use I tell it like it is 

here u go homos

beat this : 100 mg dbol for 6 weeks

please post your bench that beats this 405x3

[pumpster]

 

[Red Hook]

i trained legs and after finishing hamstrings 2 guys were still doing chest ,after 4 exercising in i started to see them still going,they were doing drop sets on inclines smith i figured then they have to be done nooo!they did 3 more exercises after that ,total 7 exercises chest alone sets even with avg 3 must have been with drops 25/30 .

what if they enjoy the process of training and this is serves as their means of stress management and or escapism? and why are you studying them?  whether right or wrong they are paying their dues just as you are and  entitled to follow what ever regiment they want. But of course you know better than them are entitled to enforce you "better training practices" on them.

you seem like the experts at my gym that will walk up to anyone and give unsolicited advice.

[njflex]

what if they enjoy the process of training and this is serves as their means of stress management and or escapism? and why are you studying them?  whether right or wrong they are paying their dues just as you are and  entitled to follow what ever regiment they want. But of course you know better than them are entitled to enforce you "better training practices" on them.

you seem like the experts at my gym that will walk up to anyone and give unsolicited advice.

you be wrong ,i could care less btw,and no i keep to myself.just an observation and insight into overtraining.oh by btw u really hooked me red...

[Cleanest Natural]

You can't always pay people like Sevastase too much mind...I just read what he recommended you to do, and if he does that...

.He really doesn't train very hard at all -

and I would strongly advise you not to follow that particular plan.

I just recomended him what I think would serve him best

But for bitches like you who talk without knowing, I would take you to the gym and slap you around a bit

I am waiting for your videos or pics you butt pirate 

[io856]

I just recomended him what I think would serve him best

But for bitches like you who talk without knowing, I would take you to the gym and slap you around a bit

I am waiting for your videos or pics you butt pirate 

haha and when exactly have they seen you train anyway 

[Cleanest Natural]

haha and when exactly have they seen you train anyway 

per se is a butt pirate equipped with alien technology

he been following me all over

[Tapeworm]

D, we all get frustrated.  If you're going to hinge your decision to continue to work out on improvements made week by week, then you're going to lose interest.  You're not going to get stronger and bigger every single workout.  Some days you'll be tired, dehydrated, unmotivated, or just unable to find your zone.  The trick is not to convince yourself that there's something wrong with you or your training just because you don't look like a competitive bodybuilder.  Without drugs, no one looks like that.

Most important is that you find a training plan that you enjoy and look forward to.  If a full body workout is too much to face up to, and it has been for me in the past, then split it up.  Avoid ego lifting and injury, and take satisfaction in knowing that you are doing the right thing for your health (including what you choose to eat).

Fwiw, I think Kiwi made some good points.  A beginner's gains will slow down drastically, but there's no such thing as a permanent plateau imo.  Besides, what if Kiwi is wrong?  Does that mean you should stop training when you look, feel, and perform as well as you ever have and slide back into unfitness?

Find a workout plan you enjoy and make it part of your life.  The improvements will take care of themselves.  And don't go around rubbing castor oil on your balls or believeing everything you read on the internet.