Author Topic: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?  (Read 91226 times)

avxo

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Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #225 on: December 22, 2013, 06:27:32 PM »
knowing what will happen doesnt negate the choices you make...Im not arguing one way or the other just point out the flaw in your point.

Let's be up front: If someone is to choose freely then his selection can't be known with absolute and unmistakable certainty. An omniscient god isn't possible with free will and free will isn't possible with an omniscient god. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Now, you are, of course, free to argue that yes, you can have your cake and eat it too. Just be forewarned: people much smarter than you have tried and failed to support the position you claim to support.


Next you will probably say that well "if God is all good and all knowing, he would not let you make a bad decision that he knew was going to happen"


I don't know about Skip, but that's not what I would say... I'd say "if God is all good and all knowing, why would he make his creation, which he supposedly loves, have to jump through hoops in order to be saved for his very own wrath?"


and I will say first how do you know that what we see as evil is evil in the end. Meaning what if what we do that is deemed evil has a greater purpose that serves good in the end?

If you were to say that my answer would be "what a fucking low-life scum piece-of-shit you are..." Tell me what possible end justifies a little girl being burned to death by her parents? What possible end justifies a newlywed man dying trying to help a stranded motorist? What possible end justifies babies born addicted to drugs? What possible end justifies a 9 year old being brutally raped by his Father? What possible end justifies a woman getting sprayed with acid?

I don't see people as pawns or means to an end. If your God does, then your God is a piece of shit. And if your God treats creates people to use them as nothing more than pawns, and punishes them on top of it, is an immoral piece of shit. And you who believe in that immoral, piece of shit God, offend me.


Also how arrogant of you to presume you know what Gods thoughts and plans are...

I don't presume to know his thoughts or plans - I'm just judging, based on my moral standards, his (supposed) actions (or, as the case may be, inaction).


then we will spiral into post after post of "well if this, then that" etc eventually realizing that neither will change each others mind.

We don't have to if you agree to use logic in our conversation.

tonymctones

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Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #226 on: December 22, 2013, 06:50:43 PM »

There is no flaw.  If it's known, it's not a choice.  It's a predetermined action.  There can be no free will with an all knowing God.

The rest of your post is not what I would say and not relevant to anything I've said.


damn it my point was to avoid a drawn out debate, but it is certainly possible for God to know what choice you will make and it still be free will.

feel free avxo and skip to explain why you feel that way but please cliff notes. AVXO I didnt read a quarter of your post...summarize!!!!

Skip8282

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Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #227 on: December 22, 2013, 06:53:27 PM »
damn it my point was to avoid a drawn out debate, but it is certainly possible for God to know what choice you will make and it still be free will.

feel free avxo and skip to explain why you feel that way but please cliff notes. AVXO I didnt read a quarter of your post...summarize!!!!

I already have.

Again, If it's known, you cannot freely make a choice.  It's a predetermined action.


avxo

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Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #228 on: December 22, 2013, 07:04:56 PM »
damn it my point was to avoid a drawn out debate, but it is certainly possible for God to know what choice you will make and it still be free will.

Did you wave your hand around like some kind of Jedi while saying "it is certainly possible for God to know what choice you will make and it still be free will"? If so, it didn't work. You must support your position rationally.


feel free avxo and skip to explain why you feel that way but please cliff notes. AVXO I didnt read a quarter of your post...summarize!!!!

Let's repeat: If, for every choice I get to make, you know, with unerring accuracy, what I will choose and you know it not only before I make my choice, but before I even know that I have a choice to make, then I do not have free will, since the choice I will make is already known. I may have the illusion of free will, but that's not the same thing as free will.

It's quite convenient that you didn't read my (rather short) post, as it contained a paragraph challenging the things you said, and we wouldn't want to get into a drawn-out debate, would we? As for summarizing, not everything can be boiled down to the length of a twitter message. If you want pearls of wisdom in 140 characters of less, I would imagine that you can check out @KimKardashian.

dario73

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Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #229 on: December 22, 2013, 08:41:07 PM »
Did you wave your hand around like some kind of Jedi while saying "it is certainly possible for God to know what choice you will make and it still be free will"? If so, it didn't work. You must support your position rationally.


Let's repeat: If, for every choice I get to make, you know, with unerring accuracy, what I will choose and you know it not only before I make my choice, but before I even know that I have a choice to make, then I do not have free will, since the choice I will make is already known. I may have the illusion of free will, but that's not the same thing as free will.

It's quite convenient that you didn't read my (rather short) post, as it contained a paragraph challenging the things you said, and we wouldn't want to get into a drawn-out debate, would we? As for summarizing, not everything can be boiled down to the length of a twitter message. If you want pearls of wisdom in 140 characters of less, I would imagine that you can check out @KimKardashian.

A lot of words and such little knowledge shown.

Let me keep it simple for you.

God knowing what you are going to do, when, how and why DOESN'T NEGATE free will.

WHY?

Because God is not FORCING you to choose a certain way . YOU and ONLY YOU gets to make those decisions.

FREE WILL would only cease if at the critical time of making a decision GOD FORCED YOU TO DO HIS WILL. That never happens. HIM knowing YOUR CHOICE doesn't MEAN THE CHOICE HAS ALREADY BEEN MADE FOR YOU. THIS IS WHAT YOU DON'T or you REFUSE TO UNDERSTAND.

By your logic, GOD can't condemn rapists, murderers and thieves. There is no sin. Convenient for non-believers and atheists.




avxo

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Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #230 on: December 22, 2013, 09:52:43 PM »
A lot of words and such little knowledge shown.

I'll strive to improve my word to knowledge ratio. Perhaps I can tell you two facts about ducks? They don't fly and, when provoked, they release ink from an opening near their cloaca.


Let me keep it simple for you.

Yes, please do. I like simple things.


God knowing what you are going to do, when, how and why DOESN'T NEGATE free will.

Wait, I think you're confused. Repeating a statement doesn't prove it. On the other hand, it is quite simple.


WHY?

Yes, that is the question...


Because God is not FORCING you to choose a certain way . YOU and ONLY YOU gets to make those decisions.

The issue isn't whether I'm being forced to decide one way or another - although that's a legitimate topic of conversation too. The issue whether the decisions I do make are decisions at all. If God knows that I am going to choose to eat a cheeseburger instead of spaghetti and meatballs for dinner and God's knowledge is infalliable then I have no choice to make.

Oh, AND forgive me FOR not RANDOMLY capitalizing the various WORDS in my REPLY.


FREE WILL would only cease if at the critical time of making a decision GOD FORCED YOU TO DO HIS WILL.

If God knows that in half an hour I'm going to choose to go get a burger from In'N'Out instead of eating leftover spaghetti, then at this "critical time" you speak of, can I choose to actually eat spaghetti? And if I can't, because God knows I'm going to choose the burger, then I'm not free to choose the spaghetti after all, am I?


That never happens.

Prove it. Please start by providing a definition of the term "God".


HIM knowing YOUR CHOICE doesn't MEAN THE CHOICE HAS ALREADY BEEN MADE FOR YOU.

I'm sorry to break this to you, but this isn't how debating works. Saying the same thing, in a slightly different way, doesn't qualify as debating and is unlikely to convince anyone.


THIS IS WHAT YOU DON'T or you REFUSE TO UNDERSTAND.

Perhaps you didn't explain it simply enough? Can you try to simplify it some more? I know, it's a pain; please bear with me.


By your logic, GOD can't condemn rapists, murderers and thieves.

By my logic, God is a figment of your imagination. But if he were real, then by my logic, he could condemn rapists, murderers and thieves all day long, but his condemnation would be, at best, hypocritical, since he knew those people would become rapists, murderers and thieves, and still created them.


There is no sin.

Please provide a definition for the word sin. Please be accurate enough so as to allow everyone who decides to use your definition to unambigiously and deterministically identify whether an action is a sin or not. Please hurry, as I am about to eat shellfish and shave my facial hair. I wouldn't want to sin.


Convenient for non-believers and atheists.

You'd think so, but even though us heathens have whitewashed sin away we still have a lot of dense, irrational religious people to deal with and that's very incovenient. Perhaps you know the type? they are the kind of people who believe that morality boils down to following a book written by sheep-herders and then doing - without thinking - whatever that book says because it is the word of some ethereal entity that has never been seen or heard; they are the kind of people who not only choose to live this way, but seek to impose their ridiculous views on everyone else too.

Skip8282

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Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #231 on: December 23, 2013, 02:07:05 AM »

God knowing what you are going to do, when, how and why DOESN'T NEGATE free will.



Of course it does.  There is no freedom in following a path that has already been decided.



Quote

Because God is not FORCING you to choose a certain way .



If the path is known, it's already been decided, regardless of what or who is the cause.  And, if it's already known, it's a predetermined action, not a free choice.


Necrosis

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Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #232 on: December 23, 2013, 04:06:29 AM »
I am so impulsive god can't keep up. He has no idea what I AM going to DO(I see you dario).

Think of free will like birth, did you choose to be born? nope, but it was pre-ordained, same with every other decision if god exists, not to mention the banality of it all,  is novel or new or important in eternity, eternity negates purpose.

However, the universe is a hologram according to string theory combined with the simulated universe theory by bostroms simulation argument and some ibogaine and you have the answer to god.

dario73

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Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #233 on: December 23, 2013, 10:11:08 AM »
LOL.

These libtard philosophers are so dumb.

Of course there is a reward for obeying God and a different reward for disobeying him.

YOU make the choice. GOD doesn't PUSH you to either end, nor does he STOP you from choosing either one. THUS, YOU HAVE FREE WILL.


I kept it simple for you idiots.

dario73

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Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #234 on: December 23, 2013, 10:16:02 AM »
Just look at this thread.

The atheists can't stop talking about GOD.

I can't stop but I have a reason. I am a believer.

But why do non-believers or atheists dedicate so much of their time and energy into a GOD that doesn't exist, who according to them, is a fairy tale?

Only one word: DOUBT

Skeletor

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Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #235 on: December 23, 2013, 11:03:08 AM »
Just look at this thread.

The atheists can't stop talking about GOD.

I can't stop but I have a reason. I am a believer.

But why do non-believers or atheists dedicate so much of their time and energy into a GOD that doesn't exist, who according to them, is a fairy tale?

Only one word: DOUBT

::)

avxo

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Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #236 on: December 23, 2013, 11:31:15 AM »
Just look at this thread.

The atheists can't stop talking about GOD.

You mean, that some of us will challenge the stupid, irrational, unsubstantiated statements by you and your ilk?


I can't stop but I have a reason. I am a believer.

See, that's the problem. You talk and then I'm compelled to answer the bullshit you spew because I'm allergic to bullshit. If you stand up and proclaim that you can have your cake and eat it too, don't be surprised when I stand back and call an you irrational idiot.


But why do non-believers or atheists dedicate so much of their time and energy into a GOD that doesn't exist, who according to them, is a fairy tale?

It's all part of God's plan. Who are you to question God's plan?


Only one word: DOUBT

I get that you are trying to pull the wool over people's eyes to hide the fact that you cannot rationally defend your position - and just about everybody else here does too. It's OK thought, don't be upset... we understand. It's not your fault that you have the intellectual capacity of a cooked bivalve.

Don't fret or worry. Continue to exist in that mental fog in which you exist, secure in the knowledge that you are stupid for a reason because God is great and he has a plan! :)

Skip8282

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Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #237 on: December 23, 2013, 02:29:39 PM »
LOL.

These libtard philosophers are so dumb.

Of course there is a reward for obeying God and a different reward for disobeying him.

YOU make the choice. GOD doesn't PUSH you to either end, nor does he STOP you from choosing either one. THUS, YOU HAVE FREE WILL.


I kept it simple for you idiots.



This is not really about belief.  It's about logic. 

If the choice you are going to make is already known, then you are doing nothing more than following a predetermined action.

Think of it this way.  If God knows before even your parents or grandparents (or anybody else in your family) is born, that someday you will eat a bowl of Cheerios and go rob a bank...then someday you will eat a bowl of Cheerios and go rob a bank. 

It's either that...or we accept that God is not all knowing.

Skip8282

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Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #238 on: December 23, 2013, 02:33:15 PM »
Just look at this thread.

The atheists can't stop talking about GOD.

I can't stop but I have a reason. I am a believer.

But why do non-believers or atheists dedicate so much of their time and energy into a GOD that doesn't exist, who according to them, is a fairy tale?

Only one word: DOUBT



Yeah, my 5 or 6 posts in this thread, coupled with my 2 or 3 on the religious board means that I can't stop talking about it.  You've nailed me on my true obsession, lol.

whork

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Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #239 on: December 23, 2013, 04:59:42 PM »
You mean, that some of us will challenge the stupid, irrational, unsubstantiated statements by you and your ilk?


See, that's the problem. You talk and then I'm compelled to answer the bullshit you spew because I'm allergic to bullshit. If you stand up and proclaim that you can have your cake and eat it too, don't be surprised when I stand back and call an you irrational idiot.


It's all part of God's plan. Who are you to question God's plan?


I get that you are trying to pull the wool over people's eyes to hide the fact that you cannot rationally defend your position - and just about everybody else here does too. It's OK thought, don't be upset... we understand. It's not your fault that you have the intellectual capacity of a cooked bivalve.

Don't fret or worry. Continue to exist in that mental fog in which you exist, secure in the knowledge that you are stupid for a reason because God is great and he has a plan! :)


Brilliant.

tonymctones

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Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #240 on: December 23, 2013, 08:18:14 PM »
Did you wave your hand around like some kind of Jedi while saying "it is certainly possible for God to know what choice you will make and it still be free will"? If so, it didn't work. You must support your position rationally.


Let's repeat: If, for every choice I get to make, you know, with unerring accuracy, what I will choose and you know it not only before I make my choice, but before I even know that I have a choice to make, then I do not have free will, since the choice I will make is already known. I may have the illusion of free will, but that's not the same thing as free will.

It's quite convenient that you didn't read my (rather short) post, as it contained a paragraph challenging the things you said, and we wouldn't want to get into a drawn-out debate, would we? As for summarizing, not everything can be boiled down to the length of a twitter message. If you want pearls of wisdom in 140 characters of less, I would imagine that you can check out @KimKardashian.
absolutely not...knowing is not controlling...

how does knowing something is going to happen negate the will of the person doing it?

you repeating yourself is not explaining by the way.

How is me knowing what you will do, negate your ability to make that choice?

the two are mutually exclusive, they have nothing to do with one another...

tonymctones

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Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #241 on: December 23, 2013, 08:20:56 PM »


This is not really about belief.  It's about logic. 

If the choice you are going to make is already known, then you are doing nothing more than following a predetermined action.

Think of it this way.  If God knows before even your parents or grandparents (or anybody else in your family) is born, that someday you will eat a bowl of Cheerios and go rob a bank...then someday you will eat a bowl of Cheerios and go rob a bank. 

It's either that...or we accept that God is not all knowing.
slightly different than your original argument, in the first argument it was simply that God knew what was going to happen not that it was predetermined.

Simply knowing somthing is going to happen does not mean God has predetermined that action to take place only that God knows the choice YOU WILL MAKE...

there is a difference...knowing how things will play out does not negate personal choice.

avxo

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Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #242 on: December 23, 2013, 09:53:19 PM »
absolutely not...knowing is not controlling...

how does knowing something is going to happen negate the will of the person doing it?

you repeating yourself is not explaining by the way.

How is me knowing what you will do, negate your ability to make that choice?

the two are mutually exclusive, they have nothing to do with one another...

If you know every choice I will ever make without the possibility of error then I am not free to choose, if my choice must be the choice you knew I would make, long before I knew I would even have to make it.

You are arguing out of both sides of your mouth. Either God is omniscient or you have free will. You can't have both. If you want to maintain that God is omniscient then you can argue that you have the illusion of free will.

You accuse me of repeating the same thing - you are doing that. I've given you specific reasons as to why what you claim is not congruent with the concept of free will, to say nothing about the rational possibility that your God actually exists.

All you do is come back with the equivalent of "neener neener neener, I can't hear you. What I said before counts. Lalalalala." What are you? 5?

Debate the matter like an adult. If you can't just say "I can't debate this topic. Nevertheless, it's what I believe." Act like a serious person instead of like a child that's high on sugar.

Please note that I don't need to prove what you say is nonsense. All I have to do is point logical inconsistencies and your argument collapses. It's up to you to build it back up.

You claim that there is a magical sky creature. Prove it.
You claim this magical sky creature is omniscient. Prove it.
You claim that free will is congruent with an omniscient being. Prove it.

Dos Equis

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Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #243 on: December 26, 2013, 11:09:59 AM »
slightly different than your original argument, in the first argument it was simply that God knew what was going to happen not that it was predetermined.

Simply knowing somthing is going to happen does not mean God has predetermined that action to take place only that God knows the choice YOU WILL MAKE...

there is a difference...knowing how things will play out does not negate personal choice.

Exactly. 

avxo

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Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #244 on: December 26, 2013, 11:12:38 AM »
Exactly. 

No... not "exactly." If "God" knows, infallibly, every choice you are going to make, then what you have isn't free will - at best it's the illusion of free will.

Dos Equis

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Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #245 on: December 26, 2013, 11:31:05 AM »
No... not "exactly." If "God" knows, infallibly, every choice you are going to make, then what you have isn't free will - at best it's the illusion of free will.

I disagree, for the reasons tony stated.  I have the choice to move to Alaska, or become a farmer, or take up paddling.  I'm seriously considering one of those.   :)  The fact God knows which one, if any, I will choose, doesn't take away my choice at all.  It's still my option. 

Choice is actually one of the beauties of Christianity.  You can choose to believe or not, to live a certain lifestyle or not.  That's a great thing. 

avxo

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Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #246 on: December 26, 2013, 12:03:34 PM »
I disagree, for the reasons tony stated.  I have the choice to move to Alaska, or become a farmer, or take up paddling.  I'm seriously considering one of those.   :)  The fact God knows which one, if any, I will choose, doesn't take away my choice at all.  It's still my option. 

Choice is actually one of the beauties of Christianity.  You can choose to believe or not, to live a certain lifestyle or not.  That's a great thing. 

Choice is one of the beauties of Christianity? That's rich. Christianity is the religion of original sin – a sin which you didn't commit but are liable for. Choice... What a joke.

Can you define, exactly, what "choice" means to you, and what it means to choose freely?

Dos Equis

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Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #247 on: December 26, 2013, 12:09:12 PM »
Choice is one of the beauties of Christianity? That's rich. Christianity is the religion of original sin – a sin which you didn't commit but are liable for. Choice... What a joke.

Can you define, exactly, what "choice" means to you, and what it means to choose freely?

Yes, one of the beauties.  It's awesome. 

I just gave you an example of what choice means to mean, which is also an example of choosing freely.  (That's redundant by the way.) 

Quote
I disagree, for the reasons tony stated.  I have the choice to move to Alaska, or become a farmer, or take up paddling.  I'm seriously considering one of those.   :)  The fact God knows which one, if any, I will choose, doesn't take away my choice at all.  It's still my option. 


What does choice mean to you? 

avxo

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Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #248 on: December 26, 2013, 12:21:57 PM »
Yes, one of the beauties.  It's awesome.  

I just gave you an example of what choice means to mean, which is also an example of choosing freely.  (That's redundant by the way.)

An example isn't a definition. Your example also doesn't explain how you can freely choose to move to Alaska if God knows (without any possibility for error) that you will not only move there, but everything else you will do.

If God knows exactly how your life will play out, you are not free to live it; you are just going through the motions. You may think you are making your choices freely, but that doesn't mean they are free.


What does choice mean to you?  

Unlike you, I won't answer with a silly example. For me, choice is a side-effect of the fact that we are beings of volitional consciousness. It means that I can choose between alternatives, freely out of my own volition and by my own standards, without constraints by a predetermined fate.

dario73

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Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #249 on: December 26, 2013, 12:28:09 PM »
An example isn't a definition. Your example also doesn't explain how you can freely choose to move to Alaska if God knows (without any possibility for error) that you will not only move there, but everything else you will do.

If God knows exactly how your life will play out, you are not free to live it; you are just going through the motions. You may think you are making your choices freely, but that doesn't mean they are free.


Unlike you, I won't answer with a silly example. For me, choice is a side-effect of the fact that we are beings of volitional consciousness. It means that I can choose between alternatives, freely out of my own volition and by my own standards, without constraints by a predetermined fate.

Give it up.

You read dumber with every post you make.