Author Topic: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?  (Read 91219 times)

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 63786
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #250 on: December 26, 2013, 12:32:29 PM »
An example isn't a definition. Your example also doesn't explain how you can freely choose to move to Alaska if God knows (without any possibility for error) that you will not only move there, but everything else you will do.

If God knows exactly how your life will play out, you are not free to live it; you are just going through the motions. You may think you are making your choices freely, but that doesn't mean they are free.


Unlike you, I won't answer with a silly example. For me, choice is a side-effect of the fact that we are beings of volitional consciousness. It means that I can choose between alternatives, freely out of my own volition and by my own standards, without constraints by a predetermined fate.

The example I gave you is a definition.  I can choose to move to Alaska, become a farmer, and/or take up paddling.  Nobody can make me do any of them. Nobody can prevent me from doing any of them.  That, by definition, is the power of choice.

The fact God knows what I will choose to do doesn't change the power I have to choose any of those (or any other options).  I can also choose not to be a Christian or follow any number of Christian teachings. That's another example of choice.  

Your definition isn't any different than mine.  Deciding to move to Alaska would be something I do out of "volitional consciousness."  Although I would never use that phrase when talking to anyone.  

And deciding on whether or not to follow any Christian teaching, where I work, live, play, etc. are all alternatives that I pick and choose.  Nothing in my life is predetermined.  I decide.  I love that.  

avxo

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5605
  • Iron Pumping University Math Professor
Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #251 on: December 26, 2013, 12:50:36 PM »
The example I gave you is a definition.  I can choose to move to Alaska, become a farmer, and/or take up paddling.  Nobody can make me do any of them. Nobody can prevent me from doing any of them.  That, by definition, is the power of choice.

The fact God knows what I will choose to do doesn't change the power I have to choose any of those (or any other options).  I can also choose not to be a Christian or follow any number of Christian teachings. That's another example of choice.  

Your definition isn't any different than mine.  Deciding to move to Alaska would be something I do out of "volitional consciousness."  Although I would never use that phrase when talking to anyone.  

And deciding on whether or not to following any Christian teaching, where I work, live, play, etc. are all alternatives that I pick and choose.  Nothing in my life is predetermined.  I decide.  I love that.  

If God knew that you'd move to Alaska before you were even born, how is nothing in your life predetermined?

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 63786
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #252 on: December 26, 2013, 12:55:40 PM »
If God knew that you'd move to Alaska before you were even born, how is nothing in your life predetermined?

Because I'm the one who will make the choice.  I'm a believer in prayer, so I do pray about my life decisions.  I ask for guidance.  But I also do my homework and do a cost/benefit analysis.  I look at the affect on my family and others.  And at the end of the day, I do what I think is best, and makes the most sense.  Sometimes I take the more risky approach.  Regardless, it's me going through a thought process and, with the help of my faith, life experience, and the counsel of people I trust, who ultimately makes the decision.  My choice.   

avxo

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5605
  • Iron Pumping University Math Professor
Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #253 on: December 26, 2013, 12:58:58 PM »
Because I'm the one who will make the choice.  I'm a believer in prayer, so I do pray about my life decisions.  I ask for guidance.  But I also do my homework and do a cost/benefit analysis.  I look at the affect on my family and others.  And at the end of the day, I do what I think is best, and makes the most sense.  Sometimes I take the more risky approach.  Regardless, it's me going through a thought process and, with the help of my faith, life experience, and the counsel of people I trust, who ultimately makes the decision.  My choice.   

So, if God, without any possibility of error, knew you'd choose to move to Alaska before you were even born, your decision wasn't predetermined and was freely made. Got it!

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 63786
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #254 on: December 26, 2013, 01:03:22 PM »
So, if God, without any possibility of error, knew you'd choose to move to Alaska before you were even born, your decision wasn't predetermined and was freely made. Got it!

Correct.  My work here is done.   :D

temple_of_dis

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 886
  • togtfo
Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #255 on: December 26, 2013, 01:04:54 PM »
how about the cock lovers get thier cake from someone who willingly wiltake thier cash for caske?


leave this non gay lover to sell his cakes to rest of us

in peace

stop telling non gays what to do

avxo

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5605
  • Iron Pumping University Math Professor
Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #256 on: December 26, 2013, 01:57:20 PM »
Correct.  My work here is done.   :D

Obviously.

24KT

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 24455
  • Gold Savings Account Rep +1 (310) 409-2244
Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #257 on: December 26, 2013, 06:06:40 PM »
I disagree, for the reasons tony stated.  I have the choice to move to Alaska, or become a farmer, or take up paddling.  I'm seriously considering one of those.   :) 

I'm hoping you choose to move to Alaska.

The very idea that I'm up here freezing my bodacious tatas as this city is encased in ice & snow,
While you're languishing in paradise does NOT sit well with me. It's about time your fleshy bits froze too.  :P
w

24KT

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 24455
  • Gold Savings Account Rep +1 (310) 409-2244
Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #258 on: December 26, 2013, 06:08:43 PM »
how about the cock lovers get thier cake from someone who willingly wiltake thier cash for caske?


leave this non gay lover to sell his cakes to rest of us

in peace

stop telling non gays what to do

I don't think it's a matter of telling a bigot what to, ...but rather telling a bigot what they cannot legally do.

w

avxo

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5605
  • Iron Pumping University Math Professor
Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #259 on: December 26, 2013, 06:15:43 PM »
I don't think it's a matter of telling a bigot what to, ...but rather telling a bigot what they cannot legally do.

I don't think the Government should be in the business of telling bigots they can't be bigoted and I don't think the Government should be in the business of telling merchants that they cannot choose who to sell their wares to. The second bit, of course, is legally possible to achieve anyways through business licenses which, as a prerequisite, require the merchant to agree to not discriminate. But even that is a bad idea.

If a baker won't bake a cake for a gay couple, that's his prerogative and I support his right not to. I don't think he should be forced to bake that cake anymore than I think a lawyer should be required to accept a murderer as a client. But I also want to know about it, because I will want to choose a different bakery (or, as the case may be, a different lawyer).

24KT

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 24455
  • Gold Savings Account Rep +1 (310) 409-2244
Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #260 on: December 26, 2013, 06:31:43 PM »
I don't think the Government should be in the business of telling bigots they can't be bigoted and I don't think the Government should be in the business of telling merchants that they cannot choose who to sell their wares to. The second bit, of course, is legally possible to achieve anyways through business licenses which, as a prerequisite, require the merchant to agree to not discriminate. But even that is a bad idea.

If a baker won't bake a cake for a gay couple, that's his prerogative and I support his right not to. I don't think he should be forced to bake that cake anymore than I think a lawyer should be required to accept a murderer as a client. But I also want to know about it, because I will want to choose a different bakery (or, as the case may be, a different lawyer).

I think a bigot should be free to be a bigot as well, however, the law is not there to legislate opinion, but behaviour.

I have a bit of a problem with the it should be the baker's choice. It's not so clear cut with me,
...especially when you've previously made a cake for a doggy wedding. I mean C'mon!
You'll bake a cake for a canine wedding, but not a human one?! How horrid a statement is that?!
The slings & arrows that people unconsciously shoot at their fellow man just sometimes boggles the mind.
And it is sometimes these subtle and unconscious and in many cases unintended attacks that leave the most lasting damage.
w

Skip8282

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7004
Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #261 on: December 26, 2013, 07:30:53 PM »
So, if God, without any possibility of error, knew you'd choose to move to Alaska before you were even born, your decision wasn't predetermined and was freely made. Got it!



Yeah, this is why I'm an atheist.  Reason and logic break down for the strongly religious and they start arguing nonsense.

It's predetermined, but they still have a choice.  ::)  oh boy.

24KT

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 24455
  • Gold Savings Account Rep +1 (310) 409-2244
Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #262 on: December 26, 2013, 08:15:17 PM »


Yeah, this is why I'm an atheist.  Reason and logic break down for the strongly religious and they start arguing nonsense.

It's predetermined, but they still have a choice.  ::)  oh boy.

It has been my experience that the vast majority of the most vocal opponents of civil rights for gays, who insist that homosexuality is a "choice", are themselves self hating closeted bi-sexuals or bi-curious types who themselves DID infact make a choice that was possible for them, ...but cannot possibly comprehend how sexual orientation is not necessarily a choice. Only a gay, or straight person can understand that IMO. just sayin'
w

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 63786
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #263 on: December 27, 2013, 08:52:32 AM »
I'm hoping you choose to move to Alaska.

The very idea that I'm up here freezing my bodacious tatas as this city is encased in ice & snow,
While you're languishing in paradise does NOT sit well with me. It's about time your fleshy bits froze too.  :P

Nice place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.  My hammock would not like the snow very much. 

Skip8282

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7004
Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #264 on: December 28, 2013, 06:34:11 AM »
It has been my experience that the vast majority of the most vocal opponents of civil rights for gays, who insist that homosexuality is a "choice", are themselves self hating closeted bi-sexuals or bi-curious types who themselves DID infact make a choice that was possible for them, ...but cannot possibly comprehend how sexual orientation is not necessarily a choice. Only a gay, or straight person can understand that IMO. just sayin'


I don't know if it's nature or nurture and don't much care.  They should have equal rights, but I'm not big on special treatment.

I'm also not too big on letting the market self-correct.  History suggests it won't, so if a sufficient number of merchants discriminated against gay people, they would have no other recourse than to seek help via the government.

24KT

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 24455
  • Gold Savings Account Rep +1 (310) 409-2244
Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #265 on: December 28, 2013, 08:03:29 AM »

I don't know if it's nature or nurture and don't much care.  They should have equal rights, but I'm not big on special treatment.

I'm also not too big on letting the market self-correct.  History suggests it won't, so if a sufficient number of merchants discriminated against gay people, they would have no other recourse than to seek help via the government.


While I'm inclined to believe it is more nature than nurture, you're right, it is irrelevant whatever it is.
I am in 100% total agreement with every single thing you just said!


Having said that, ...I'm off to go make peace with my maker because the end is surely nigh!
I can't believe I've actually agreed with you, Archer, and Avxo all in the same week. What are the odd?
I think I'm gonna grab me a lotto ticket while I'm at it too.  :P
w

24KT

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 24455
  • Gold Savings Account Rep +1 (310) 409-2244
Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #266 on: December 28, 2013, 06:36:38 PM »
If that baker cannot see common sense, and right from wrong, ...maybe we ought to appeal to her sense of self-preservation?

Here's a very compelling reason why she should support same-sex marriage...



...if she doesn't, they might come for her man! :o

w

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 63786
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #267 on: January 23, 2014, 05:37:52 PM »
Oregon ruling really takes the cake -- Christian bakery guilty of violating civil rights of lesbian couple
By Todd Starnes
Published January 21, 2014
FoxNews.com

FILE - In this undated photograph Aaron Klein stands behind the counter of his Oregon bakery, Sweet Cakes by Melissa. Since this photo was taken the store has closed. The Kleins now operate their bakery business out of their home. (SWEET CAKES BY MELISSA)
The owners of a Christian bakery who refused to make a wedding cake for a lesbian couple are facing hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines after they were found guilty of violating the couple’s civil rights.

The Oregon Bureau of Labor and Industries said they found “substantial evidence” that Sweet Cakes by Melissa discriminated against the lesbian couple and violated the Oregon Equality Act of 2007, a law that protects the rights of the LGBT community.

Last year, the bakery’s owners refused to make a wedding cake for Rachel Cryer and Laurel Bowman, of Portland, citing their Christian beliefs. The couple then filed a complaint with the state.

Aaron Klein told me there will be no reconciliation and there will be no rehabilitation.
“The investigation concludes that the bakery is not a religious institution under the law and that the business’ policy of refusing to make same-sex wedding cakes represents unlawful discrimination based on sexual orientation,” said Charlie Burr, a spokesman for the Bureau of Labor and Industries.

The backlash against Aaron and Melissa Klein, owners of the bakery, was severe. Gay rights groups launched protests and pickets outside the family’s store. They threatened wedding vendors who did business with the bakery. And, Klein told me, the family’s children were the targets of death threats.

The family eventually had to close their retail shop and now operate the bakery out of their home. They posted a message vowing to stand firm in their faith. It read, in part:

“To all of you that have been praying for Aaron and I, I want to say thank you. I know that your prayers are being heard. I feel such a peace with all of this that is going on. Even though there are days that are hard and times of struggle we still feel that the Lord is in this. It is His fight and our situation is in His hands….Please continue to pray for our family. God is great, amazing and all powerful. I know He has a plan.”

Under state law, the complaint against the bakery now moves into a period of reconciliation. If they can’t reach an agreement, formal civil charges could be filed and the Kleins could face hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines.

Last August, Labor Commissioner Brad Avakian told The Oregonian, their desire is to rehabilitate businesses like the one owned by the Christian couple.

“Everybody is entitled to their own beliefs, but that doesn’t mean that folks have the right to discriminate,” he told the newspaper. “The goal is never to shut down a business. The goal is to rehabilitate.”

Aaron Klein told me there will be no reconciliation and there will be no rehabilitation. He and his wife will not back down from their Christian beliefs.

“There’s nothing wrong with what we believe,” he said. “It’s a biblical point of view. It’s my faith. It’s my religion.”

Klein said he’s not surprised by the ruling and called it “absolutely absurd.”

“I’ve never seen a government entity use a law to come after somebody because they have a religious view,” he said. “I truly believe Brad Avakian is trying to send a message. I don’t think the constitution of the state of Oregon means anything to these people.”

Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council, told me the plight of the Klein family is another example of the consequences of redefining marriage.

“We’re seeing a steady drumbeat of the loss of religious liberty, the ability to live your life, conduct your business according to the principles and teachings of your faith,” Perkins said.

He said he was especially disturbed by the level of attacks against the Klein family.

“It shows that tolerance is one way,” he said, referring to the militant gay protests. “Those who trumpet the message of tolerance have no tolerance for people who disagree with them.”

The Kleins warned that what happened to them could happen to other Christian business owners. And it already has.

In December a Colorado baker was ordered by a judge to either serve gay weddings or face fines. Jack Phillips, the owner of Masterpiece Cakeshop, was told to “cease and desist from discriminating” against gay couples. Phillips is a Christian.

New Mexico’s Surpeme Court ruled in August that two Christian photographers who declined to photograph a same-sex union violated the state’s Human Rights Act. One justice said photographers Elaine and Jonathan Huguenin were “compelled by law to compromise the very religious beliefs that inspire their lives.”

And the Washington attorney general filed a lawsuit against a florist who refused to provide flowers for a same-sex couple’s wedding. Barronelle Stutzman, the owner of Arlene’s Flowers & Gifts filed a countersuit, telling the Christian Broadcasting Network she “had to take a stand” in defense of her faith in Christ.

Perkins told me that in many cases gay couples are targeting businesses owned by Christians.

“Individuals are being persecuted and prosecuted using the leverage of the government through these homosexual activists,” he said. “Government has become a weapon that homosexual activists are using against Christian business owners.”

And if you have any doubts about the validity of his claims, just ask the Klein family. They know what it’s like to incur the wrath of militant homosexual bullies. And they learned that in today’s America – gay rights trump religious rights.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/01/21/christian-bakery-guilty-violating-civil-rights-lesbian-couple/

avxo

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5605
  • Iron Pumping University Math Professor
Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #268 on: January 23, 2014, 08:22:46 PM »
I think it's pretty stupid from a business perspective to not bake a cake for someone who has money to give you if you're in the cake baking business. But stupid isn't illegal and people ought to be allowed to be stupid if they so choose.

But I think it's outrageous that we are at the point where the government can force businesses to not discriminate or to "rehabilitate" businesses that choose who heir customers should be.

I hope this goes to Court, and I don't mean in front of some elected hick. I mean in front of a Federal Judge that knows the law and takes no bullshit. There's plenty of those on the Federal bench; Alex Kozinski comes to mind (sidebar: what pity he won't get ever be nominated for the Supreme Court). And I hope that when this happens the State gets a good lesson.

Alas that probably won't happen...

dario73

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 6467
  • Getbig!
Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #269 on: January 24, 2014, 07:15:04 AM »
I think it's pretty stupid from a business perspective to not bake a cake for someone who has money to give you if you're in the cake baking business.

It is not stupid if the bulk of their clients are not homos.

Homos make up 3%, maybe 4%, of the USA population. What? All of the sudden businesses are starving for their patronage?

These business don't need their money.

If they are suffering financially now is because of the legal expenses and the threat of additional fines by the courts.

Agnostic007

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 15002
Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #270 on: January 24, 2014, 07:58:49 AM »
It is not stupid if the bulk of their clients are not homos.

Homos make up 3%, maybe 4%, of the USA population. What? All of the sudden businesses are starving for their patronage?

These business don't need their money.

If they are suffering financially now is because of the legal expenses and the threat of additional fines by the courts.


Except... there are a good many others who are not gay, but support their rights who would also take their business elsewhere..

blacken700

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 11873
  • Getbig!
Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #271 on: January 24, 2014, 08:06:32 AM »
moral of the story,    next time bake the cake  :D :D

dario73

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 6467
  • Getbig!
Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #272 on: January 24, 2014, 08:44:34 AM »
Except... there are a good many others who are not gay, but support their rights who would also take their business elsewhere..

And there are good many people who before all of this did not even know about the bakery, let alone do business with them. But now will support the bakery because they agree with their belief and support their fight with the courts. It goes both ways.

BUT, lets assume what you say IS THE ONLY RESULT. IF the homo supporters take their business elsewhere, SO BE IT. The owners, according to the articles posted, are willing to take that risk.

Just like I have stated all along. The homos and their supporters can take their business elsewhere. They have that right. And the owners should have the right to sell to whom they want.

But, no. They have to drag them through the courts, threaten them with fines and they want to "rehabilitate" them. ::)


avxo

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5605
  • Iron Pumping University Math Professor
Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #273 on: January 24, 2014, 09:46:28 AM »
It is not stupid if the bulk of their clients are not homos.

Homos make up 3%, maybe 4%, of the USA population. What? All of the sudden businesses are starving for their patronage?

These business don't need their money.

If they are suffering financially now is because of the legal expenses and the threat of additional fines by the courts.


You are missing the salient point of my post (which was further down and which, ironically enough, was supportive of the bakery owners) because your hate of "homos" is so rabid that it completely overrides your rational faculty.

Not unexpected really; I stopped expecting rationality from you and your ilk long ago.

blacken700

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 11873
  • Getbig!
Re: Anti-LGBT Baker FORCED to bake cakes for Homosexual Weddings?
« Reply #274 on: January 24, 2014, 10:32:54 AM »
he's your typ. fake christain bigot  :o