Author Topic: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality  (Read 40671 times)

OzmO

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #150 on: May 19, 2012, 10:23:49 AM »
There's nothing murky about it. Lev. 18 and 20 are as plain as day on that issue.

As for your shrimp comparison, let's see:

Penalty for eating shrimp: Quarantine for 12-24 hours

Penalty for homosexuality (i.e. a man lying with a man as he would lie with a woman)......DEATH!!!

Hmmmm...which one was the bigger offense?

Wrong again.  Perhaps with the law of that particular land back then.  

Through out history I don't see homosexuals dying upon their first or last sexual encounter.  It would an epidemic in Palm Springs today!

As for the verse.  Its murky because it can be taken 2 different ways. 

However, Eating shrimp is an abomination they don't have fins and scales.   :)

loco

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #151 on: May 19, 2012, 01:08:34 PM »

Maybe you can help loco.  

Is there anything in the Bible that directly says Homosexuality is a sin?



Matthew 19:4-5
4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’
5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’?

Leviticus 18:22
Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.

Romans 1:26-27
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones.
27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

1 Corinthians 6:9
9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men

1 Timothy 1:8-10
8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly.
9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,
10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine

Leviticus 20:13
If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.



But it is still murky:



LOL    ;D

Dos Equis

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #152 on: May 19, 2012, 04:34:11 PM »
Homosexuals now trying to use the Bible to justify their lifestyle.   Good luck with that! 

Matthew 19:4-5
4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’
5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’?

Leviticus 18:22
Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.

Romans 1:26-27
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones.
27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

9 Don’t you know that the unrighteous will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be deceived: No sexually immoral people, idolaters, adulterers, or anyone practicing homosexuality,(a)
10 no thieves, greedy people, drunkards, verbally abusive people, or swindlers will inherit God’s kingdom.

Footnotes:

 a.   1 Corinthians 6:9 Lit adulterers, passive homosexual partners, active homosexual partners


Footnotes #2:

Troll    :)

And this one:

Jude 1:6-7
New King James Version (NKJV)
6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude+1%3A6-7&version=NKJV

OzmO

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #153 on: May 19, 2012, 05:08:17 PM »
And this one:

Jude 1:6-7
New King James Version (NKJV)
6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude+1%3A6-7&version=NKJV

Still unclear and murky.  The story of Sodom is one of the authors arguments.   Sexual immorality and strange flesh could mean many things.  However a calamite and a effeminate are very specific things in which they do not define homosexuals, but instead possible aspects of homosexuality.

What about these verses?

Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Luke 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luke 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Dos Equis

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #154 on: May 19, 2012, 05:18:33 PM »
Still unclear and murky.  The story of Sodom is one of the authors arguments.   Sexual immorality and strange flesh could mean many things.

What about these verses?

Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Luke 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luke 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

It's only unclear and murky if you want it to be.  The Bible's view on homosexuality is as plain as El Vira's cleavage. (Am I dating myself?)  The author has no credibility as I pointed out in my first post in this thread.  Made a false statement to try and support a false conclusion.  You should go back to using that "evil Bible" website.  Might be a little more reliable.  But not by much.   :)

What about those verses?  They have zero to do with homosexuality.

OzmO

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #155 on: May 19, 2012, 05:24:51 PM »
It's only unclear and murky if you want it to be.  The Bible's view on homosexuality is as plain as El Vira's cleavage. (Am I dating myself?)  The author has no credibility as I pointed out in my first post in this thread.  Made a false statement to try and support a false conclusion.  You should go back to using that "evil Bible" website.  Might be a little more reliable.  But not by much.   :)

What about those verses?  They have zero to do with homosexuality.

Lol  you are dating yourself, and because i know you are I am also dating myself.

I am not using the evil bible web site. lol.   I am just pointing out murky-ness.  Strange flesh and sexual immorality could mean different things.  Do you not agree?  So all sexual morality means homosexuality?  what about pedophilia?  What about incest?  What about infidelity?  Aren't those also immoral?

As for strange flesh....isn't whoring around a practice of going after strange flesh?  How about having sex with a random hooker?  isn't that going after strange flesh?  what about randomly picking up someone in a night club?  isn't that strange flesh?


If all those things could have other meanings how could it be clear?

Then add those verses i listed and it gets more murky.  There's more too. 

Dos Equis

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #156 on: May 19, 2012, 05:39:45 PM »
Lol  you are dating yourself, and because i know you are I am also dating myself.

I am not using the evil bible web site. lol.   I am just pointing out murky-ness.  Strange flesh and sexual immorality could mean different things.  Do you not agree?  So all sexual morality means homosexuality?  what about pedophilia?  What about incest?  What about infidelity?  Aren't those also immoral?

As for strange flesh....isn't whoring around a practice of going after strange flesh?  How about having sex with a random hooker?  isn't that going after strange flesh?  what about randomly picking up someone in a night club?  isn't that strange flesh?


If all those things could have other meanings how could it be clear?

Then add those verses i listed and it gets more murky.  There's more too. 

You have to read a number of verses on the same subject, in the proper context, to get a reasonable understanding of any given subject.  For example, reading the phrase "strange flesh" by itself could mean beastality, etc.  But comparing that passage to the others quoted in this thread makes it obvious the reference is to homosexuality. 

You can always find questions if you want.  They might be unreasonable, but you can find ambiguity anywhere.

Those verses you quoted are not talking about homosexuality. Read the whole chapter. 

OzmO

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #157 on: May 19, 2012, 05:43:02 PM »
You have to read a number of verses on the same subject, in the proper context, to get a reasonable understanding of any given subject.  For example, reading the phrase "strange flesh" by itself could mean beastality, etc.  But comparing that passage to the others quoted in this thread makes it obvious the reference is to homosexuality. 

You can always find questions if you want.  They might be unreasonable, but you can find ambiguity anywhere.

Those verses you quoted are not talking about homosexuality. Read the whole chapter. 

Women grinding on each other in bed is not homosexuality?


Dos Equis

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #158 on: May 19, 2012, 05:50:36 PM »
Women grinding on each other in bed is not homosexuality?



Lol.  Read the chapter.  Not even remotely talking about lesbians.  Grinding = cooking.

OzmO

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #159 on: May 19, 2012, 05:57:06 PM »
Lol.  Read the chapter.  Not even remotely talking about lesbians.  Grinding = cooking.

lol ok  and 2 men in one bed?

Dos Equis

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #160 on: May 19, 2012, 06:05:42 PM »
lol ok  and 2 men in one bed?

What about it?  Are you saying that verse says two men are homosexuals sleeping together and is an endorsement of homosexuality?

OzmO

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #161 on: May 19, 2012, 06:08:01 PM »
What about it?  Are you saying that verse says two men are homosexuals sleeping together and is an endorsement of homosexuality?

nope i am saying its unclear.   :)

Dos Equis

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #162 on: May 19, 2012, 06:15:37 PM »
nope i am saying its unclear.   :)

Not to me.  But I've read the chapter, so the verse in its proper context, is crystal clear.

OzmO

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #163 on: May 19, 2012, 06:49:43 PM »
Not to me.  But I've read the chapter, so the verse in its proper context, is crystal clear.

I get its clear to you.  To most staunch Christians all the verses regarding homosexuality will be.  But overall, in all references, it's not, and that's just another example to me of it not being clear. 

So far i haven't seen a direct clear one.  Some have come close but could be taken as another meaning. 

Dos Equis

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #164 on: May 19, 2012, 07:05:31 PM »
I get its clear to you.  To most staunch Christians all the verses regarding homosexuality will be.  But overall, in all references, it's not, and that's just another example to me of it not being clear. 

So far i haven't seen a direct clear one.  Some have come close but could be taken as another meaning. 

You don't have to be a staunch Christian to read Bible passages objectively, especially on this subject.  There are other subjects with much more room for reasonable debate and discussion than this, like divorce, drinking, drugs, etc.

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #165 on: May 19, 2012, 07:18:40 PM »
You don't have to be a staunch Christian to read Bible passages objectively, especially on this subject.  There are other subjects with much more room for reasonable debate and discussion than this, like divorce, drinking, drugs, etc.

Not saying you do need to be a staunch christian to read the passages objectively.  I am suggesting the opposite.  What i am saying is that a staunch christian will likely always see them that way regardless.  I think this is a good topic for a debate considering the age when the Bible was written and the men who wrote it and the lack of directness combined with some of the translations. 

Dos Equis

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #166 on: May 19, 2012, 07:32:57 PM »
Not saying you do need to be a staunch christian to read the passages objectively.  I am suggesting the opposite.  What i am saying is that a staunch christian will likely always see them that way regardless.  I think this is a good topic for a debate considering the age when the Bible was written and the men who wrote it and the lack of directness combined with some of the translations. 

Staunch/devout Christians do not always agree.  I see some things differently than my wife, my pastor, and some church members.  Just not on this subject. 

Morality doesn't change with the passage of time. Or least it shouldn't.

OzmO

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #167 on: May 19, 2012, 07:46:34 PM »
Staunch/devout Christians do not always agree.  I see some things differently than my wife, my pastor, and some church members.  Just not on this subject. 

Morality doesn't change with the passage of time. Or least it shouldn't.

I kind of disagree when it comes to non victimized actions and many things in the OT.

Things like deceit, murder, rape, theft, adultery etc should always be immoral. 

 

Dos Equis

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #168 on: May 19, 2012, 07:56:43 PM »
I kind of disagree when it comes to non victimized actions and many things in the OT.

Things like deceit, murder, rape, theft, adultery etc should always be immoral. 

 

I'm not sure there are victimless sins?  The individual always harms himself in some way.

I agree about the items you mentioned, but if you want to find ambiguity you can say the command says don't kill, which would preclude self defense or the defense of others.  There is nothing about the age of consent for sex.  What about stealing or lying as part of a covert military or law enforcement operation?  Always something you can argue about.

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #169 on: May 20, 2012, 10:32:25 PM »
Morality doesn't change with the passage of time. Or least it shouldn't.

Nonsense. Morality is a way of distinguishing the "good" from the "bad." Not only are there many such systems of morality, but they have all been changing and continue to change. There's no universal, immutable morality, and if you think there is, I would ask that you define that system for us.

Dos Equis

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #170 on: May 20, 2012, 10:39:33 PM »
Nonsense. Morality is a way of distinguishing the "good" from the "bad." Not only are there many such systems of morality, but they have all been changing and continue to change. There's no universal, immutable morality, and if you think there is, I would ask that you define that system for us.

Oh please.  There are certain things that are universally immoral, including rape, child molestation, elder abuse, abuse of the disabled, etc. 

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #171 on: May 20, 2012, 10:45:41 PM »
What does the bible say about dinosaurs?

G

avxo

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #172 on: May 20, 2012, 11:47:09 PM »
Oh please.  There are certain things that are universally immoral, including rape, child molestation, elder abuse, abuse of the disabled, etc.

Even if that is the case, that still doesn't make morality immutable and universal, which is what you said:

Morality doesn't change with the passage of time. Or least it shouldn't.

You are, essentially, saying "This is universally immoral. Therefore, morality is universal and immutable." This is a logical fallacy known as an "irrelevant conclusion."

You are also making two very big assumptions: The first is that these acts are universally considered immoral; in many cultures today, rape isn't seen as immoral, since women are seen as sexual toys. The second assumption, on top of the first, is that they always have been and that just isn't the case. For example, many cultures disposed of mentally or physically disabled infants.

You can argue that those acts are wrong today and were wrong millenia ago, it's just that humanity wasn't as morally evolved then. But that makes my point all the more salient: morality is a set of codes undergoing constant change. I can certainly agree that a kind of "ideal" universal morality might be possible in the sense that once you take everything the answer depends on and consider it a part of the question, the answer is necessarily inherent in the question.

In other words if you could somehow include everything that morality can depend on, perhaps you could define an "ideal" universal and immutable morality. But can you do that? It's a very big if.

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #173 on: May 21, 2012, 02:40:17 AM »

In other words if you could somehow include everything that morality can depend on, perhaps you could define an "ideal" universal and immutable morality. But can you do that? It's a very big if.


Right, and then someone of your or my (I'm assuming we agree) disposition can deploy the Euthyphro Dilemma on poor little Beach Bum: either those moral laws exist without God or otherwise they are utterly arbitrary and based on his whim. If they are truly immutable then they cannot be based on God's whim, since his whim could change (and, by definition, the immutable laws are not subject to change). So the Christian's god ends up being totally superfluous when it comes to morality because the immutable laws are all there without him.

But all of this assumes Beach Bum could ever formulate a sensible universal and immutable morality. Beach Bum, maybe you can begin by defining "good," "bad," "right," and "wrong." You're throwing around these ethical terms like its obvious what they mean but appearances can be deceiving. Maybe you can succeed where some of the smartest people in human history failed (e.g., Aristotle, Kant, J.S. Mill) and can clearly tell us skeptics what universal morality looks like!

OzmO

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #174 on: May 21, 2012, 08:36:58 AM »
I'm not sure there are victimless sins?  The individual always harms himself in some way.

I agree about the items you mentioned, but if you want to find ambiguity you can say the command says don't kill, which would preclude self defense or the defense of others.  There is nothing about the age of consent for sex.  What about stealing or lying as part of a covert military or law enforcement operation?  Always something you can argue about.

The difference is they are victims by choice.  For example if someone wants to do meth, they do it by choice.  If someone gets raped its not by choice.  Of course meth is bad for you, but so are cigarettes, transfat, too much salt etc.