Is there any doubt that Iraq is the new Vietnam?

[Dos Equis]

Not anymore.

That facet of the mission was turned off last week in a very quiet announcement.  We're there to stay, hotshot.

Obviously.  We will always have a presence. 

[240 is Back]

Obviously.  We will always have a presence. 

yeah, but this news was big in that we are halting training programs.  They got tired of hearing "It's been two years and you have not yet assembled a Baghdad police force?" so they just closed down the program.

HA!

There's a way to ensure you'll always be needed.  Close the police academy and tell everyone you're the only law in town. 

This also removes the middle option (remove US troops from cities, let iraqis guard them, and pull our men to borders, bases, and pipeline) that I've been calling for the last year, which many democrats wanted and were talking about in the last year.  Bush just turned off that option.  Very odd.  Now, you either support staying, or a collapse - but that third option of 'let them rebuild their security forces' is gone now.

[ieffinhatecardio]

I don't know about MIT and Cal Tech but the military approves of it. We cover any equipment that we can't get under cover in plastic and tape in case of a chem attack.

Wow, that makes me feel better because I'm glad to know that the military uses a method that doesn't really work.

Here's just one little quote from the the University of Utah, it's just one the many that I found.

Myth #3: A mask, plastic sheeting, and some duct tape will save you from a biological attack.
Weaponized biological agents are typically one to five microns (0.0001 cm or 0.00003937 inch) in diameter. The Department of Homeland Security suggests wearing a dense-weave cotton mask to help filter contaminants. Such a mask is a barrier only to particles thousands of microns or larger in size. In addition, partitioning off a room with plastic sheeting and duct tape can slow the movement of air from outside to inside, but it will by no means seal the area from outside air.

http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/features/biowarfare/

[egj13]

Wow, that makes me feel better because I'm glad to know that the military uses a method that doesn't really work.

Here's just one little quote from the the University of Utah, it's just one the many that I found.

Myth #3: A mask, plastic sheeting, and some duct tape will save you from a biological attack.
Weaponized biological agents are typically one to five microns (0.0001 cm or 0.00003937 inch) in diameter. The Department of Homeland Security suggests wearing a dense-weave cotton mask to help filter contaminants. Such a mask is a barrier only to particles thousands of microns or larger in size. In addition, partitioning off a room with plastic sheeting and duct tape can slow the movement of air from outside to inside, but it will by no means seal the area from outside air.

http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/features/biowarfare/

When I was in Korea, the Army was doing tests on this. What they found is that Chems tend to come down in "globs" and not a fine mist. The plastic was perfect. If you want to hear more PM me.

[OzmO]

What was our objective in Vietnam?  Wasn't it to unify the north and south?  We failed, no?  And we lost over 58,000 service members.  Millions of Vietnamese died.  That hardly compares to Iraq, where we steamrolled the Iraqi army, removed Saddam, captured him, the Iraqi people tried and executed him, a new government has been installed, and the Iraqi military and police will eventually take primarily responsibility. 

It was not to unify north and south,  it was to stop the spread of communism.  We fight wars like this different now, resulting in less casualties due to tactics and technology, but they are the same in principle.     We easily could be looking at 15,000 dead if this was with Vietnam era tactics and equipment.

[240 is Back]

Oil is good, WMDs are bad

LOL at your sigline, ieffinhatecardio.

have you become a war hawk after learning of the necessity of their oil for our economy? lol...

[Dos Equis]

It was not to unify north and south,  it was to stop the spread of communism.  We fight wars like this different now, resulting in less casualties due to tactics and technology, but they are the same in principle.     We easily could be looking at 15,000 dead if this was with Vietnam era tactics and equipment.

O.K.  If the military objective was to stop the spread of communism, we failed.  And you're discrediting your own premise:  the fact that we learned from mistakes in Vietnam and as a result have suffered far fewer casualties means Iraq is not the new Vietnam. 

I'll never forget the talk we had on day 1 of basic training by some colonel.  His first words were "you are here to prepare for war."  Talk about sobering comments.  He then showed us some clips and talked about "Task Force Smith."  If I recall correctly, this was an operation in Vietnam where our soldiers were not properly trained, were unprepared, and got slaughtered.  He repeated the line "No More Task Force Smiths" about 50 times.  I'll always remember that. 

[OzmO]

O.K.  If the military objective was to stop the spread of communism, we failed.  And you're discrediting your own premise:  the fact that we learned from mistakes in Vietnam and as a result have suffered far fewer casualties means Iraq is not the new Vietnam. 

I'll never forget the talk we had on day 1 of basic training by some colonel.  His first words were "you are here to prepare for war."  Talk about sobering comments.  He then showed us some clips and talked about "Task Force Smith."  If I recall correctly, this was an operation in Vietnam where our soldiers were not properly trained, were unprepared, and got slaughtered.  He repeated the line "No More Task Force Smiths" about 50 times.  I'll always remember that. 

I agree with you 100% on what you saying here save the "my own premise" part.  My point is the quagmire we are in resembles Vietnam.

[OzmO]

I agree with you 100% on what you saying here save the "my own premise" part.  My point is the quagmire we are in resembles Vietnam.

We learned as far as tactics go,  but we didn't learn as far as the overall picture goes.

[Dos Equis]

I agree with you 100% on what you saying here save the "my own premise" part.  My point is the quagmire we are in resembles Vietnam.

There are definitely similarities.  I think if your topic was "is there any doubt that Iraq resembles Vietnam," I would probably agree.     But I do think it's an overstatement to say Iraq = Vietnam.   

[OzmO]

There are definitely similarities.  I think if your topic was "is there any doubt that Iraq resembles Vietnam," I would probably agree.     But I do think it's an overstatement to say Iraq = Vietnam.   

point taken.  I agree and now I've changed it.

 

[Dos Equis]

point taken.  I agree and now I've changed it.

 

Cool.  I agree.   

[headhuntersix]

Task Force Smith was the task force hastily put together in response to the N. Korean invasion of the south. They were wearing summer weight clothing, weaposn of WW2 era and some units had smoke rounds that they used against NK armor..complete disaster. Most troops came from the occupation force in Japan. Anyway..as far as Vietnam goes..by the end of 1968 the VC were decimated as an effective fighting force. This was another aim of the NVA..as they knew that the VC would present a problem once they took over the south. By 1970 we were as good if not better fighting the guerrillas. But public opinion was solidly against the war with no hope of return...folks were against thew war not because it was in ur face as the drive by historians would suggest but because there was a draft..once the draft ended..the peace movement lost its teeth. We could have won that war easier then this one.

[Dos Equis]

Task Force Smith was the task force hastily put together in response to the N. Korean invasion of the south. They were wearing summer weight clothing, weaposn of WW2 era and some units had smoke rounds that they used against NK armor..complete disaster. Most troops came from the occupation force in Japan. Anyway..as far as Vietnam goes..by the end of 1968 the VC were decimated as an effective fighting force. This was another aim of the NVA..as they knew that the VC would present a problem once they took over the south. By 1970 we were as good if not better fighting the guerrillas. But public opinion was solidly against the war with no hope of return...folks were against thew war not because it was in ur face as the drive by historians would suggest but because there was a draft..once the draft ended..the peace movement lost its teeth. We could have won that war easier then this one.

Thanks for the clarification:  Task Force Smith was Korea, not Vietnam.  Couldn't remember. 

[headhuntersix]

We still say no task force Smith's its kinda funny.

[Dos Equis]

We still say no task force Smith's its kinda funny.

That is funny, in kind of a morbid way.     I still remember it from many moons ago. 

[gcb]

Task Force Smith was the task force hastily put together in response to the N. Korean invasion of the south. They were wearing summer weight clothing, weaposn of WW2 era and some units had smoke rounds that they used against NK armor..complete disaster. Most troops came from the occupation force in Japan. Anyway..as far as Vietnam goes..by the end of 1968 the VC were decimated as an effective fighting force. This was another aim of the NVA..as they knew that the VC would present a problem once they took over the south. By 1970 we were as good if not better fighting the guerrillas. But public opinion was solidly against the war with no hope of return...folks were against thew war not because it was in ur face as the drive by historians would suggest but because there was a draft..once the draft ended..the peace movement lost its teeth. We could have won that war easier then this one.

Load of rubbish - you couldn't win the war in Vietnam because a majority of the Vietnamese people didn't want you there and were prepared to do something about it (including die). Same as what is happening in iraq really.