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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Dos Equis on February 23, 2008, 10:24:50 AM
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I have questions too. :-\
Feb 23, 12:00 PM EST
Obama may face grilling on patriotism
By NEDRA PICKLER
Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Sen. Barack Obama's refusal to wear an American flag lapel pin along with a photo of him not putting his hand over his heart during the National Anthem led conservatives on Internet and in the media to question his patriotism.
Now Obama's wife, Michelle, has drawn their ire, too, for saying recently that she's really proud of her country for the first time in her adult life.
Conservative consultants say that combined, the cases could be an issue for Obama in the general election if he wins the nomination, especially as he runs against Vietnam war hero Sen. John McCain.
"The reason it hasn't been an issue so far is that we're still in the microcosm of the Democratic primary," said Republican consultant Roger Stone. "Many Americans will find the three things offensive. Barack Obama is out of the McGovern wing of the party, and he is part of the blame America first crowd."
Opponents of Sen. John Kerry proved in the 2004 election that voters are sensitive to suggestions that a candidate is not sufficiently patriotic. The Democratic presidential nominee's campaign was torpedoed by critics of his Vietnam War record called the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, even though he won multiple military honors and was lauded by his superiors.
The Swift Boat campaign started as a relatively small television ad buy that exploded into an issue that dogged Kerry for months. The Massachusetts senator has conceded since losing to President Bush that the campaign and his lackluster response to unsubstantiated allegations he considered unworthy of a reaction likely cost him the election. And the term even became part of the campaign lexicon - swift boating.
Obama already is the subject of a shadowy smear campaign based on the Internet that falsely suggests he's a Muslim intent on destroying the United States. Obama is a Christian and has been fighting the e-mail hoax, which also claims he doesn't put his hand over his heart during the Pledge of Allegiance, and he's been trying to correct the misinformation.
"Whenever I'm in the United States Senate, I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America," Obama frequently tells voters.
"I've been going to the same church for 20 years, praising Jesus," he adds.
Retired Major General Scott Gration, an Obama military adviser, said he expects the attacks will only increase if Obama wins the Democratic nomination.
"People are projecting things and taking things out of context," Gration said. "There's absolutely no question in my mind that Michelle and Barack are extremely patriotic, appreciate our freedoms and our values and everything else that the flag represents."
Officials with the McCain campaign and the Republican Party say they won't be suggesting Obama is less than patriotic, and instead plan to focus their criticisms on his record and inexperience if he wins the nomination. Well-funded outside groups, however, consider anything fair game.
Conservative Republican consultant Keith Appell, who worked with the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, said Obama's opposition to the war will create a "striking contrast between McCain the war hero and Obama the poster child for the anti-war movement."
"If you are McCain, you want to play up the decorated war hero, loves his country, served his country," Appell said. "You want to play those themes up as much as possible, especially in comparison to Obama and his role in the anti-war movement."
On Monday, Michelle Obama told an audience in Milwaukee, "For the first time in my adult life, I am really proud of my country. Not just because Barack is doing well, but I think people are hungry for change."
Cindy McCain, McCain's wife, days later responded by saying, "I have, and always will be, proud of my country." Barack Obama has expressed frustration that his wife's remarks had been taken out of context and turned into political fodder - both the Obamas say she was talking about politics in the United States, not the country itself.
Last summer, Obama was photographed by Time magazine at an event in Iowa standing with his hands folded during the national anthem. His primary rivals Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton and New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson appear beside him, with their hands on their hearts.
It has been repeatedly reported that the moment came during the Pledge of Allegiance, but that's not the case.
In October, Obama told Iowa television station KCRG that he decided to stop wearing a U.S. flag lapel pin during the run-up to the Iraq war because it had become "a substitute for, I think, true patriotism."
"I decided I won't wear that pin on my chest. Instead, I'm going to try to tell the American people what I believe will make this country great and, hopefully, that will be a testimony to my patriotism," Obama said.
Obama's comments led conservatives and media commentators to question his patriotism.
"First he kicked his American flag pin to the curb. Now Barack Obama has a new round of patriotism problems. Wait until you hear what the White House hopeful didn't do during the singing of the national anthem," said Steve Doocy, co-host of "Fox and Friends" on the Fox News Channel.
"He felt it OK to come out of the closet as the domestic insurgent he is," former radio host Mark Williams said on Fox.
Gration said he had a copy of the national anthem photo e-mailed to him by a friend who didn't know the facts and questioned how a military man could support someone who doesn't honor the Pledge of Allegiance.
"I go to baseball games and football games and there's just a minority of us who put our hands over our heart. It's not an indication of patriotism," Gration said. Gration said he personally wears a flag pin, but "if I meet someone who doesn't have a lapel pin, it doesn't mean they are more or less patriotic than I am."
And, he added, "I don't think you can find Barack again not putting his hand over his heart at the national anthem."
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/O/OBAMA_ATTACK_FODDER?SITE=HIHAD&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
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mcccain will bomb iran and has already committed us to staying in iraq for 100 years.
discuss.
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mcccain will bomb iran and has already committed us to staying in iraq for 100 years.
discuss.
Spy Agencies Say Iraq War Hurting U.S. Terror Fight
By Karen DeYoung
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, September 24, 2006; Page A01
The war in Iraq has become a primary recruitment vehicle for violent Islamic extremists, motivating a new generation of potential terrorists around the world whose numbers may be increasing faster than the United States and its allies can reduce the threat, U.S. intelligence analysts have concluded.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/23/AR2006092301130.html
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I'm surprsied they did not add in the comments his wife said last week, about now "being proud of America" like she has not been proud to be an American all her life or something.
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I'm surprsied they did not add in the comments his wife said last week, about now "being proud of America" like she has not been proud to be an American all her life or something.
Yep.
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It's pretty pathetic actually that our presidential races are reduced to this bull crap.
Questioning his patriotism? OMFG!
Many American conservatives lack the evolutionary intelligence to discern when they are being manipulated. It's the allegory of the cave all over again.
Joe Bubba and trailer park gang figure freedom is shopping at Wal mart for gun racks.
As pathetic as this is, it's even more sad that in this country as great as it is, all we have to put up for election is:
- A whinny frog looking clueless old man with no class
- A religious nut job
- A crying elitists bitch
- A loud mouth no substance whipper snapper
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It's pretty pathetic actually that our presidential races are reduced to this bull crap.
Questioning his patriotism? OMFG!
Many American conservatives lack the evolutionary intelligence to discern when they are being manipulated. It's the allegory of the cave all over again.
Joe Bubba and trailer park gang figure freedom is shopping at Wal mart for gun racks.
As pathetic as this is, it's even more sad that in this country as great as it is, all we have to put up for election is:
- A whinny frog looking clueless old man with no class
- A religious nut job
- A crying elitists bitch
- A loud mouth no substance whipper snapper
LOL. Yes, the cream always rises to the top in a democracy.
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If Patriotism means being a dumnbass, then I guess not having your head up your ass would offend more most conservatives. ;D
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Who gives a fuck? It's not like Obama's trying to persuade motherfuckin Rush Limbaugh to vote for him.
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Who gives a fuck? It's not like Obama's trying to persuade motherfuckin Rush Limbaugh to vote for him.
Who gives a fuck?
Masses of inbred stupid people will be distracted from anything substantial a make an issue like this important.
Not that patriotism isn't important ::). I would think that most people are smart enough to realize that a presidential candidates patriotism is a given. People that think otherwise are just easily manipulated sheep who are controlled by their stupidity and emotions.
But then again this a voter population who somehow got kerry to run against bush and elected bush twice.
And the BLAME AMERICA first/anti American bull shit. ::) ::)
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Who gives a fuck?
Masses of inbred stupid people will be distracted from anything substantial a make an issue like this important.
they were never going to vote for him anyway.
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they were never going to vote for him anyway.
No doubt. However stupid people are everywhere, including the middle.
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mcccain will bomb iran and has already committed us to staying in iraq for 100 years.
discuss.
McCain=Insane! But then again Beach Bum believes in talking snakes and magical apples so....you get the picture.
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Not stupid questions at all. I wouldn't call him un-American, but the flag pin, pledge, and his wife’s comments are pretty dumb moves. The president has to be a big cheerleader. His primary job is to man the bully pulpit and make everyone feel good; be proud to be an American. That was one of the major distinctions between Carter and Reagan. If this guy is going to do things like not put his hand over his heart during the pledge, he's going to, among other things, offend veterans all over the place. It's disrespectful (if true). And it really doesn't take much to avoid these things from becoming an issue. Does this disqualify him from office? No. Does it raise questions about his judgment? Absolutely.
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Judgement or patriotism?
If the article wanted to grill his judgment then it should read:
"Obama may face grilling on judgement"
Then we can bring into the discussions McCain and his singing of BOMB BOMB BOMB IRAN.
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Judgement or patriotism?
If the article wanted to grill his judgment then it should read:
"Obama may face grilling on judgement"
Then we can bring into the discussions McCain and his singing of BOMB BOMB BOMB IRAN.
Both. The flag pin and pledge are judgment issues. His wife's comments raise patriotism issues. How in the world could they (and I'm assuming he and his wife share the same views) not be proud of their country or be proud to be an American, particularly when this guy was a state and U.S. senator? Yeah, I'd question the patriotism of someone making that kind of statement.
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Both. The flag pin and pledge are judgment issues. His wife's comments raise patriotism issues. How in the world could they (and I'm assuming he and his wife share the same views) not be proud of their country or be proud to be an American, particularly when this guy was a state and U.S. senator? Yeah, I'd question the patriotism of someone making that kind of statement.
How does being dissatisfied with the leadership or direction of your country make you less patriotic?
Especially when you consider that the person who said it is vigorously campaigning for change?
If anything in my mind it makes you more patriotic.
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How does being dissatisfied with the leadership or direction of your country make you less patriotic?
Especially when you consider that the person who said it is vigorously campaigning for change?
If anything in my mind it makes you more patriotic.
She didn't say she was dissatisfied with the leadership or direction of our country. She said "For the first time in my adult life, I am really proud of my country." There is no way to sugarcoat those comments. This coming from a couple who are among the most educated, successful, and high earners in the country.
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She didn't say she was dissatisfied with the leadership or direction of our country. She said "For the first time in my adult life, I am really proud of my country." There is no way to sugarcoat those comments. This coming from a couple who are among the most educated, successful, and high earners in the country.
Why?
Because she sees, IHO, the real possibility for change?
Because maybe she doesn't agree with the decisions of it's leadership since she's been a adult?
How does that make it unpatriotic?
Who's sugar coating?
Is the constitution sugar coating?....... it's part of "free speech" the ability and right to criticize this country. It's part of what it is to be American and that in NO WAY makes her or anyone else less patriotic if they are speaking for change and voicing their dissatisfaction.
Otherwise we might as well resurrect Stalin and Hitler and have them decided what's patriotic.
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Why?
Because she sees, IHO, the real possibility for change?
Because maybe she doesn't agree with the decisions of it's leadership since she's been a adult?
How does that make it unpatriotic?
Who's sugar coating?
It the constitution sugar coating?....... it's part of "free speech" the ability and right to criticize this country. It's part of what it is to be American and that in NO WAY makes her or anyone else less patriotic if they are speaking for change and voicing their dissatisfaction.
Otherwise we might as well resurrect Stalin and Hitler and have them decided what's patriotic.
Because they were dumb comments. I listed in another thread (the one where her comments are posted) some of the reasons why she should have been proud of her country in her adult life.
You are sugarcoating her comments if you're saying she expressed dissatisfaction with her leadership. That isn't what she said.
This has absolutely nothing to do with free speech or the Constitution. I didn't say she didn't have the right to make those comments or that the government should forbid her from making those comments. The First Amendment gives everyone the right to make stupid comments, as she showed this week.
When someone has greatly benefited from the very things that make this country great and then claim to not be "proud" of that country, yeah, I will question their judgment, motives, patriotism, etc.
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Patriotism differs little from nationalism.
Pride in one's 'country' is a silly thing. How can one be proud of having arbitrarily been born some place, having no say in it. It is an accident that we are Americans or that someone else is a Frenchman. Pride should only be expressed for those things one has personally accomplished and achieved in one's own life, of and by one's own accord, not in the doings and feats of past men, who themselves were the products of a geographical accident.
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Because they were dumb comments.
So now dumb comments are unpatriotic?
com on.
I listed in another thread (the one where here comments are posted) some of the reasons why she should have been proud of her country in her adult life.
So you are now the one who determines what people should be proud of and if they are not they are unpatriotic?
You are sugarcoating her comments if you're saying she expressed dissatisfaction with her leadership. That isn't what she said.
She said for the first time in her adult life she is proud of America.
What do you think she means? She "HATES" America? she hates things that are American?
Com on. You know very well what she meant. She wasn't proud because it isn't the country she thinks it should be which includes it's leadership.
News: that's the beauty of being American. We all have th right to try and change the country......democracy, imagine.
This has absolutely nothing to do with free speech or the Constitution. I didn't say she didn't have the right to make those comments or that the government should forbid her from making those comments. The First Amendment gives everyone the right to make stupid comments, as she showed this week.
But you called her unpatriotic for it, or was it dumb? or was it lacking judgment? While it may lack judgment in a presidential race (which is a matter of opinion as they are in the drivers seat for the nomination) it is certainly NOT unpatriotic.
When someone has greatly benefited from the very things that make this country great and then claim to not be "proud" of that country, yeah, I will question their judgment, motives, patriotism, etc.
Oh, so now because she benefited from being American she is unpatriotic to not be proud until now when she sees change happening?
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So now dumb comments are unpatriotic?
com on.
So you are now the one who determines what people should be proud of and if they are not they are unpatriotic?
She said for the first time in her adult life she is proud of America.
What do you think she means? She "HATES" America? she hates things that are American?
Com on. You know very well what she meant. She wasn't proud because it isn't the country she thinks it should be which includes it's leadership.
News: that's the beauty of being American. We all have th right to try and change the country......democracy, imagine.
But you called her unpatriotic for it, or was it dumb? or was it lacking judgment? While it may lack judgment in a presidential race (which is a matter of opinion as they are in the drivers seat for the nomination) it is certainly NOT unpatriotic.
Oh, so now because she benefited from being American she is unpatriotic to not be proud until now when she sees change happening?
No, not all dumb comments are unpatriotic.
Yes, I have an opinion about what people should be proud of. You don't have to agree. That's why it's called an opinion. :)
I'm not inside her head, so I don't know precisely what she meant, but I accept her words at face value: she was not proud (in other words, she was ashamed) of her country before her husband become a legitimate presidential candidate. Unacceptable. But hear she has backed off those comments?
I agree one of the beauties of being an American is the people have the power to change things.
Actually, as I think about it, her comments were dumb, lacking in judgment, and unpatriotic. You don't have to agree. Someone who has been wildly successful in this country should be gleeful about what a great land this is, particularly when one of them is a first generation American citizen. I personally don't know how most people, particularly those with their lifestyle and accomplishments--compliments of our great country--could not be "proud" of their country. We have people who sacrifice their lives for this country. We take care of the have nots. We give every American-born person, man or woman, the ability to become president of the United States, even the son of immigrants. But one of the beauties of this country is we don't have to agree on this. :)
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No, not all dumb comments are unpatriotic.
Yes, I have an opinion about what people should be proud of. You don't have to agree. That's why it's called an opinion. :)
I'm not inside her head, so I don't know precisely what she meant, but I accept her words at face value: she was not proud (in other words, she was ashamed) of her country before her husband become a legitimate presidential candidate. Unacceptable. But hear she has backed off those comments?
I agree one of the beauties of being an American is the people have the power to change things.
Actually, as I think about it, her comments were dumb, lacking in judgment, and unpatriotic. You don't have to agree. Someone who has been wildly successful in this country should be gleeful about what a great land this is, particularly when one of them is a first generation American citizen. I personally don't know how most people, particularly those with their lifestyle and accomplishments--compliments of our great country--could not be "proud" of their country. We have people who sacrifice their lives for this country. We take care of the have nots. We give every American-born person, man or woman, the ability to become president of the United States, even the son of immigrants. But one of the beauties of this country is we don't have to agree on this. :)
You know reading what you have to say on this matter reminds of oversensitive libs who run around chastising everyone for not being politically correct but in this case in reverse.
You are criticizing her for a comment she made with knowing what was going on in her head or what she meant by it in detail. And then you are attaching a whole bunch of things to it. Such as, "people have sacrificed their lives for this country" to her comment. Like people do when getting all bent out of shape because there is a cross on a public building or American Indian groups getting fired up about the Atlanta Braves and the tomahawk chop.
And do you know what she was "not proud of" Do you automatically "assume" it's all the things you listed? Do you really think she's "ashamed of EVERYTHING". I think it's more than obvious she's not talking about everything, but instead some specific things. Otherwise don't you think she'd just move.
I'm successful in this country and for the last 5 years I'm not proud of it at all. In fact I'm saddened with every aspect of our leadership from both parties. Does that make me unpatriotic? Do you think she's not proud of our constitution? Would you answer that question by saying "i donno if she is"
Does that make anyone that criticizes the USA unpatriotic. Because that is exactly what you suggest.
I think you backed yourself in a corner here. You were quick to judge without considering the full context of her statement and are motivated to hold your position because of your distaste for the Obama in general. I feel ya. All 4 of them suck arse.
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You know reading what you have to say on this matter reminds of oversensitive libs who run around chastising everyone for not being politically correct but in this case in reverse.
You are criticizing her for a comment she made with knowing what was going on in her head or what she meant by it in detail. And then you are attaching a whole bunch of things to it. Such as, "people have sacrificed their lives for this country" to her comment. Like people do when getting all bent out of shape because there is a cross on a public building or American Indian groups getting fired up about the Atlanta Braves and the tomahawk chop.
And do you know what she was "not proud of" Do you automatically "assume" it's all the things you listed? Do you really think she's "ashamed of EVERYTHING". I think it's more than obvious she's not talking about everything, but instead some specific things. Otherwise don't you think she'd just move.
I'm successful in this country and for the last 5 years I'm not proud of it at all. In fact I'm saddened with every aspect of our leadership from both parties. Does that make me unpatriotic? Do you think she's not proud of our constitution? Would you answer that question by saying "i donno if she is"
Does that make anyone that criticizes the USA unpatriotic. Because that is exactly what you suggest.
I think you backed yourself in a corner here. You were quick to judge without considering the full context of her statement and are motivated to hold your position because of your distaste for the Obama in general. I feel ya. All 4 of them suck arse.
Yes I made assumptions about her comments, just like you put the best possible spin on her comments. We're both making assumptions.
You have not been proud of your country at all the past 5 years? Sounds like an overstatement. If you're not overstating things, then I'd say you have a warped view of your country.
There is nothing unpatriotic about questioning your country's leadership, decisions, policies, etc. I do it all the time. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about a woman saying she has not been proud of her country in her entire adult life (more than 20 years).
I'm not in any corner. I stand by my criticism of her comments. And no I'm not motivated by dislike for Obama.
I am not happy with the top 3. Looks like I'll be holding my nose again in November. :-\
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I am not happy with the top 3. Looks like I'll be holding my nose again in November. :-\
But your going to vote right?
We will always be voting for the lesser of two evils.
Although can't say the same for B. Clinton like him or love him he did alot for our country.
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Yes I made assumptions about her comments, just like you put the best possible spin on her comments. We're both making assumptions.
There's nothing to spin about her comment. the spinning happening is your assumptions of what she meant by it. My assumptions are far more objective, realistic and likely.
[quote
You have not been proud of your country at all the past 5 years? Sounds like an overstatement. If you're not overstating things, then I'd say you have a warped view of your country. ][/quote]
No i'm not. Call it inspirational dissatisfaction if you like. I believe we've lost touch with our heart and soul that makes our country great. The thing that really topped it off, was the democrats. i could on and on. It doesn't change my love for America or my desire to make it better. That's what's she's doing, in her way.
There is nothing unpatriotic about questioning your country's leadership, decisions, policies, etc. I do it all the time. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about a woman saying she has not been proud of her country in her entire adult life (more than 20 years).
exactly. However it is more than obvious what she was talking about unless you just desire to fully hold on the grammar becuase you are justifying your dislike for her and her husband. And, there is nothing wrong with her statement unless you agree with the leadership in anyway in the last 20 years. In which case you'd simply disagree....
I'm not in any corner. I stand by my criticism of her comments. And no I'm not motivated by dislike for Obama.
It's ok to admit it. ;)
I am not happy with the top 3. Looks like I'll be holding my nose again in November. Undecided
Nearly everyone i talk to says pretty much the same thing :'(
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But your going to vote right?
We will always be voting for the lesser of two evils.
Although can't say the same for B. Clinton like him or love him he did alot for our country.
Absolutely mang. I'll always vote. Isn't it a crying shame we can't get our best, brightest, and most qualified to run? :-\
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Isn't it a crying shame we can't get our best, brightest, and most qualified to run? :-\
::)
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The president has to be a big cheerleader.
His primary job is to man the bully pulpit and make everyone feel good; be proud to be an American.
This is correct.
Might be hard for some to unravel their 6th grade social studies book, but the president doesn't sit down and make all the major decisions... he sells them to the world. Does anyone *really* think the massive plan to sell WMD lie, topple saddam, install puppet gov, grab oil, build bases, surround iran, was Bush's creation? hahahahah
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Obama's response:
Obama fights back on questions about his patriotism
(CNN) -- Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama defended himself and his wife Sunday against suggestions that they are insufficiently patriotic.
Sen. Barack Obama defended himself and his wife against recent suggestions that they are not patriotic.
Asked during a town hall meeting in Lorain, Ohio, about "an attempt by conservatives and Republicans to paint you as unpatriotic," a questioner cited the fact that Obama once failed to put his hand over his heart while singing the national anthem.
The questioner also noted that the Illinois senator does not wear an American flag lapel pin, has met with former members of the radical anti-Vietnam War group, Weather Underground, and his wife was quoted recently as saying she never felt really proud of the United States until recently.
Asked how he would fight the image of being unpatriotic, Obama said, "There's always some nonsense going on in general elections. Right? If it wasn't this, it would be something else. If you recall, first it was my name. Right? That was a problem. And then there was the Muslim e-mail thing and that hasn't worked out so well, and now it's the patriotism thing.
"The way I will respond to it is with the truth: that I owe everything I am to this country," he said. Obama said it was a speech about his love for this country that put him in the national spotlight. He shot down the idea that failing to put his hand over his heart during the national anthem makes him unpatriotic.
"If that were the case, that would disqualify about three-quarters of the people who have ever gone to a football game or baseball game."
Obama said his wife, Michelle, had already explained her comments. "She simply misspoke," he said. "What she was referring to was this was the first time she has been proud of politics in America.
"That's true of a lot of people who have been cynical and disenchanted. And she's spoken about how she has been cynical about American politics for a very long time, but she's proud of how people are participating and getting involved in ways that they haven't in a very long time."
About not wearing an American flag lapel pin, Obama said Republicans have no lock on patriotism.
"A party that presided over a war in which our troops did not get the body armor they needed, or were sending troops over who were untrained because of poor planning, or are not fulfilling the veterans' benefits that these troops need when they come home, or are undermining our Constitution with warrantless wiretaps that are unnecessary?
"That is a debate I am very happy to have. We'll see what the American people think is the true definition of patriotism."
Obama did not respond to the question about the Weather Underground, a group whose members bombed the U.S. Capitol and the Pentagon during the 1970s.
Last week, the New York Sun reported that as an Illinois state senator in 2001, Obama accepted a $200 contribution from William Ayers, a founder of the group who was not convicted for the bombings and now works as a professor at the University of Illinois at Chicago.
But the paper said that, in a statement, a spokesman for the Obama campaign, William Burton, said, "Sen. Obama strongly condemns the violent actions of the Weathermen group, as he does all acts of violence ... But he was an eight-year-old child when Ayers and the Weathermen were active, and any attempt to connect Obama with events of almost 40 years ago is ridiculous."
Former first lady Sen. Hillary Clinton has said repeatedly that she is a stronger candidate because she has already shown she can withstand conservative attacks.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/02/24/obama.patriotism/index.html
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The topic of Obama's patriotism seems a bit lame to me but I have friends and (sadly) a family member in Texas who believe one of more of the following is literally true:
1. Obama is a practising Muslim
2. Obama is a member of Al Queda
3. Obama's loyalty is not for the USA (though unable to define to whom he is loyal)
4. His middle name of Hussein is deeply significant and proof of "something"
Personally I couldn't give a rats ass if he doesn't wear a flag lapel pin but I think it's pretty stupid to let himself be photographed/video taped in this particular situation. He's standing on stage with a bunch of other politicians and, whatever his reasoning (if there is any) I think this just looks bad in contrast. It's not like he's at a baseball game with his buddies
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Not stupid questions at all. I wouldn't call him un-American, but the flag pin, pledge, and his wife’s comments are pretty dumb moves. The president has to be a big cheerleader. His primary job is to man the bully pulpit and make everyone feel good; be proud to be an American. That was one of the major distinctions between Carter and Reagan. If this guy is going to do things like not put his hand over his heart during the pledge, he's going to, among other things, offend veterans all over the place. It's disrespectful (if true). And it really doesn't take much to avoid these things from becoming an issue. Does this disqualify him from office? No. Does it raise questions about his judgment? Absolutely.
Don't fall for it Beach Bum. These attacks come right out of the Fascist playbook. It's not like Obama traded arms with Iran or attacked another country in a naked war of aggression--those are truly unpatriotic acts.
Stand tall with Rush Limbaugh against these foolish consistencies allegedly aligned with patriotic behavior--symbolic flag buttons or the hand on the heart during the pledge....crapola...reme mber, we don't pledge shit to the flag--it's just a symbol...we pledge allegiance to our constitution.
Remember what Rush hates "Symbolism over substance"...
Then again, He must not have seen that pathetic display at the SOTU where all the republican free-thinkers waved their ink stained fingers wildly in the air to show symbolic support for Iraqi elections.
.....I still get shivers thinking about that profound moment.
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Its easy to say all this stuff about Patriotism when U've never had to do anything about it. The flag means alot to some of us. The Pledge means something...I would expect the President to be a super patriot but again when ur a Lib I guess America means something different to u then the rest of us.
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Its easy to say all this stuff about Patriotism when U've never had to do anything about it. The flag means alot to some of us. The Pledge means something...I would expect the President to be a super patriot but again when ur a Lib I guess America means something different to u then the rest of us.
Had to?
Are you referring to volunteering for military service?
I would expect people to be intelligent enough to recognize blatant manipulation and propaganda.
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Asked how he would fight the image of being unpatriotic, Obama said, "There's always some nonsense going on in general elections. Right? If it wasn't this, it would be something else. If you recall, first it was my name. Right? That was a problem. And then there was the Muslim e-mail thing and that hasn't worked out so well, and now it's the patriotism thing.
"The way I will respond to it is with the truth: that I owe everything I am to this country," he said. Obama said it was a speech about his love for this country that put him in the national spotlight. He shot down the idea that failing to put his hand over his heart during the national anthem makes him unpatriotic.
"If that were the case, that would disqualify about three-quarters of the people who have ever gone to a football game or baseball game."
Obama said his wife, Michelle, had already explained her comments. "She simply misspoke," he said. "What she was referring to was this was the first time she has been proud of politics in America.
"That's true of a lot of people who have been cynical and disenchanted. And she's spoken about how she has been cynical about American politics for a very long time, but she's proud of how people are participating and getting involved in ways that they haven't in a very long time."
Funny that the obvious has to be explained.
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Had to?
Are you referring to volunteering for military service?
I would expect people to be intelligent enough to recognize blatant manipulation and propaganda.
Because u wear a lapel pin and do the Pledge ur falling for propaganda? Libs wonder why Conservatives believe things like "blame America First". It exists...wander over to the Huffington Post. Read the threads on the Nancy Reagan fall and the Castro stuff from last week.
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Don't fall for it Beach Bum. These attacks come right out of the Fascist playbook. It's not like Obama traded arms with Iran or attacked another country in a naked war of aggression--those are truly unpatriotic acts.
Stand tall with Rush Limbaugh against these foolish consistencies allegedly aligned with patriotic behavior--symbolic flag buttons or the hand on the heart during the pledge....crapola...reme mber, we don't pledge shit to the flag--it's just a symbol...we pledge allegiance to our constitution.
Remember what Rush hates "Symbolism over substance"...
Then again, He must not have seen that pathetic display at the SOTU where all the republican free-thinkers waved their ink stained fingers wildly in the air to show symbolic support for Iraqi elections.
.....I still get shivers thinking about that profound moment.
I don't listen to Rush.
I have no problem criticizing someone who wants to be president when they exercise poor judgment. It's sort of ironic that when people question things like not putting his hand over his heart during the pledge the people who question him get accused of "fascism" or trampling on the First Amendment.
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Its easy to say all this stuff about Patriotism when U've never had to do anything about it. The flag means alot to some of us. The Pledge means something...I would expect the President to be a super patriot but again when ur a Lib I guess America means something different to u then the rest of us.
Exactly. A person who wants to be president has to avoid such obvious gaffes.
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The fascist term gets thrown around alot. Considering classical fascism call for the government to control everything and crushes individualism...who does that sound like.
Contrary to what most people think, the Nazis were ardent socialists (hence the term “National socialism”). They believed in free health care and guaranteed jobs. They confiscated inherited wealth and spent vast sums on public education. They purged the church from public policy, and inserted the authority of the state into every nook and cranny of daily life. The Nazis declared war on smoking, supported abortion, euthanasia, and gun control. They loathed the free market, provided generous pensions for the elderly, and maintained a strict racial quota system in their universities—where campus speech codes were all the rage....doesn't sound alot like the Republican party or the Conservative movement.
How many times do u see young Republican's being shouted down on college campuses or Conservative speakers interrupted.
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The fascist term gets thrown around alot. Considering classical fascism call for the government to control everything and crushes individualism...who does that sound like.
Contrary to what most people think, the Nazis were ardent socialists (hence the term “National socialism”). They believed in free health care and guaranteed jobs. They confiscated inherited wealth and spent vast sums on public education. They purged the church from public policy, and inserted the authority of the state into every nook and cranny of daily life. The Nazis declared war on smoking, supported abortion, euthanasia, and gun control. They loathed the free market, provided generous pensions for the elderly, and maintained a strict racial quota system in their universities—where campus speech codes were all the rage....doesn't sound alot like the Republican party or the Conservative movement.
How many times do u see young Republican's being shouted down on college campuses or Conservative speakers interrupted.
:o :-X
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Because u wear a lapel pin and do the Pledge ur falling for propaganda? Libs wonder why Conservatives believe things like "blame America First". It exists...wander over to the Huffington Post. Read the threads on the Nancy Reagan fall and the Castro stuff from last week.
no lol. com on hh6, you really didn't think that did you?
It's because propaganda is making you think that someone who doesn't put their hand on the heart when they say the pledge or wear a lapel pin isn't patriotic.
unbelievable.
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The fascist term gets thrown around alot. Considering classical fascism call for the government to control everything and crushes individualism...who does that sound like.
Contrary to what most people think, the Nazis were ardent socialists (hence the term “National socialism”). They believed in free health care and guaranteed jobs. They confiscated inherited wealth and spent vast sums on public education. They purged the church from public policy, and inserted the authority of the state into every nook and cranny of daily life. The Nazis declared war on smoking, supported abortion, euthanasia, and gun control. They loathed the free market, provided generous pensions for the elderly, and maintained a strict racial quota system in their universities—where campus speech codes were all the rage....doesn't sound alot like the Republican party or the Conservative movement.
How many times do u see young Republican's being shouted down on college campuses or Conservative speakers interrupted.
One simularity To notice, is Hitler Occupied, war-mongered and bullied other nations to spread his Ideals around..........Sounds like he was a Republican in that venture.
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Headhunter doesn't use words like "ardent." ;) He's quoting from an idiot named Jonah Goldberg. Lol, what horse excrement. Apparently, he also thinks organic food is fascist. Jon Stewart had fun with him.
http://tv.popcrunch.com/daily-show-january-15-jonah-goldberg-author-of-liberal-fascism-video/
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Who the fuck was singing that national anthem? Whoa, that sucked.
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Its easy to say all this stuff about Patriotism when U've never had to do anything about it. The flag means alot to some of us. The Pledge means something...I would expect the President to be a super patriot but again when ur a Lib I guess America means something different to u then the rest of us.
Why do you think that I have not done anything about my patriotism?
Do you have a different sense of nationalism b/c you decided to join up with the military?
Do you think that makes you more of an american than me? I don't.
I don't pledge allegiance to a flag. I did when I was a child but I didn't know any better then. Now I do.
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The fascist term gets thrown around alot. Considering classical fascism call for the government to control everything and crushes individualism...who does that sound like.
Contrary to what most people think, the Nazis were ardent socialists (hence the term “National socialism”). They believed in free health care and guaranteed jobs. They confiscated inherited wealth and spent vast sums on public education. They purged the church from public policy, and inserted the authority of the state into every nook and cranny of daily life. The Nazis declared war on smoking, supported abortion, euthanasia, and gun control. They loathed the free market, provided generous pensions for the elderly, and maintained a strict racial quota system in their universities—where campus speech codes were all the rage....doesn't sound alot like the Republican party or the Conservative movement.
How many times do u see young Republican's being shouted down on college campuses or Conservative speakers interrupted.
I'm not sure what Classical Fascism is but I do know that Mussolini coined 'fascism' as the corporatization of government supported by force of extreme nationalism where the individual is subordinated to the corporatized state.
That sounds like the Bush administration if you ask me--all the key watchdog positions in gov. are filled by corporate cronies (foxes watching the henhouse), trampling 4th, 6th, and 8th amendment rights so that the president can 'keep us safe'...
Here we go again. The Nazis were not Socialists. Ok? Does this sound like the workers owning/controlling the means of production:
..the Nazis achieved rearmament through deficit spending. One of our respondents has correctly pointed out that they actively discouraged demand increases because they wanted infrastructure investment. Under the Reich, corporations were largely left to govern themselves, with the incentive that if they kept prices under control, they would be rewarded with government contracts. Hardly a socialist economic agenda !
http://www.politicalcompass.org/faq#faq18
Hitler did take good care of the German people...with the resources he murdered for and plundered from other countries. That sounds familiar too...doesn't it?
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...It's sort of ironic that when people question things like not putting his hand over his heart during the pledge the people who question him get accused of "fascism" or trampling on the First Amendment.
I see no irony in labeling a man through innuendo as 'unpatriotic'. Do you?
You elevate that which is unimportant--hand on the heart or flag in the lapel--as an issue of sober consequence which has the ?intended? result of besmirching a candidate's character and, by extension, his fitness for high office.
That game is of the extreme 'nationalism' with grounds in fascism Beach Bum.
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Headhunter doesn't use words like "ardent." ;) He's quoting from an idiot named Jonah Goldberg. Lol, what horse excrement. Apparently, he also thinks organic food is fascist. Jon Stewart had fun with him.
http://tv.popcrunch.com/daily-show-january-15-jonah-goldberg-author-of-liberal-fascism-video/
Jonah Goldberg is such an amateur.
And a horrible deceiver too. He really tells it like it ain't.
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I pledge allegience to the flag. When I was a teacher, I made all my students do it, even though some teachers let them work thru it. The USA ain't perfect, but it's still the only place I'd want to live. When you get older and learn how things really work, well, then you can make your own decision. But when youre young, a sense of nationalism is a good thing.
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So u don't do the Pledge...what exactly do u like about this country. I really don't understand libs...move then if we're so bad. If u don't like America, revolt, run for office. Do u really think anything will change with Obama in office.
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I'm not sure what Classical Fascism is but I do know that Mussolini coined 'fascism' as the corporatization of government supported by force of extreme nationalism where the individual is subordinated to the corporatized state.
That sounds like the Bush administration if you ask me--all the key watchdog positions in gov. are filled by corporate cronies (foxes watching the henhouse), trampling 4th, 6th, and 8th amendment rights so that the president can 'keep us safe'...
Here we go again. The Nazis were not Socialists. Ok? Does this sound like the workers owning/controlling the means of production:
..the Nazis achieved rearmament through deficit spending. One of our respondents has correctly pointed out that they actively discouraged demand increases because they wanted infrastructure investment. Under the Reich, corporations were largely left to govern themselves, with the incentive that if they kept prices under control, they would be rewarded with government contracts. Hardly a socialist economic agenda !
http://www.politicalcompass.org/faq#faq18
Hitler did take good care of the German people...with the resources he murdered for and plundered from other countries. That sounds familiar too...doesn't it?
Decker just flat out ,makes sense when he posts. 8)
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I see no irony in labeling a man through innuendo as 'unpatriotic'. Do you?
You elevate that which is unimportant--hand on the heart or flag in the lapel--as an issue of sober consequence which has the ?intended? result of besmirching a candidate's character and, by extension, his fitness for high office.
That game is of the extreme 'nationalism' with grounds in fascism Beach Bum.
I see no irony in labeling certain comments "unpatriotic" if the statements are unpatriotic.
I didn't make this man's conduct news. He's the dummy who refused to put his hand over his heart during the pledge and refuses to wear a flag pin to try and prove a point. Not a smart move on his part. I will continue to criticize such foolish conduct of any man who wants to be president.
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So u don't do the Pledge...what exactly do u like about this country. I really don't understand libs...move then if we're so bad. If u don't like America, revolt, run for office. Do u really think anything will change with Obama in office.
Freedom is dicey topic. We try to maximize not only liberty of our person but of our thoughts and expression as well. When you start measuring a man by the pledges he makes instead of his acts/accomplishments/ideas, you get a big steaming pile of results. Sort of like having an electroshock cap on everyone so that they correctly pledge to the country.
How many hoops must a man jump through to prove he's not a commie?
The Pledge is a thoughtless gesture that debases true americans. I don't pledge a damn thing to the flag. I don't care if the flag is burned. I don't care if a biker chick makes a seductive top out of it. And while we are at it, I don't really care if the Constitution goes up in flames either. The ideas that support those things are what's important. And thinking--improving our thinking--refining our thinking---is what it's all about.
Or we could just continue with mindless pledges...over and over again...as if they mean something new and fresh each time.
As I have said before, I love my country and I support the constitution.
My ideas are American and I don't want to move. Why don't you think of relocating abroad with your compulsory pledges if you don't like it. If America's greatness is captured by the Pledge, I'm sure you'll find many converts to your way of thinking.
I like the free exchange of ideas here.
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I see no irony in labeling certain comments "unpatriotic" if the statements are unpatriotic.
I didn't make this man's conduct news. He's the dummy who refused to put his hand over his heart during the pledge and refuses to wear a flag pin to try and prove a point. Not a smart move on his part. I will continue to criticize such foolish conduct of any man who wants to be president.
I'm beginning to like this Obama guy. It takes a certain amount of stones to stand up to the rightwing nationalistic liberal media.
He's not towing the nationalistic line and that's something that should be applauded...not scorned.
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I'm beginning to like this Obama guy. It takes a certain amount of stones to stand up to the rightwing nationalistic liberal media.
He's not towing the nationalistic line and that's something that should be applauded...not scorned.
It's more along the lines of stupidity. You don't alienate a substantial portion of the voting population when you're trying to earn their votes.
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Decker just flat out ,makes sense when he posts. 8)
That's right kind of you mister.
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It's more along the lines of stupidity. You don't alienate a substantial portion of the voting population when you're trying to earn their votes.
Fuck the pledge...........bush destroyed any pride or allegiance long ago. Thats why Obama is doing so well, hes saying we can change course with actions people want........not the usual rhetoric of "Fear mongering" as bushy repeats as nauseum.
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It's more along the lines of stupidity. You don't alienate a substantial portion of the voting population when you're trying to earn their votes.
Maybe you're seeing something different when you are viewing the record crowds showing up to see the man and hear him speak.
His base is not the nutty 19% that still support Bush and his war. They would never vote for a democrat for president even if he were the only man running in the race.
I think Obama is quite intelligent. I don't agree with him on some subjects but he would make a superior leader compared to what we are saddled with at the moment.
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Maybe you're seeing something different when you are viewing the record crowds showing up to see the man and hear him speak.
His base is not the nutty 19% that still support Bush and his war. They would never vote for a democrat for president even if he were the only man running in the race.
I think Obama is quite intelligent. I don't agree with him on some subjects but he would make a superior leader compared to what we are saddled with at the moment.
Hillary draws huge crowds too. Either one will need much more than Democrat supporters to win the general. They need some crossover votes and swing voters (like me) to carry the day. He lost me when he started talking about his agenda, but some of his conduct will not have many conservatives and independents voting for him.
Sure he's smart. Everyone still in the race is smart. What I see is a borderline socialist, based on what he wants to do for our country.
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It's more along the lines of stupidity. You don't alienate a substantial portion of the voting population when you're trying to earn their votes.
Damn, I can't believe that I agree with you on something but then I think I alluded to this same point before. These things (hand over heart, pledge and the a much lesser extent the lapel pin) are symbolic gestures that are significant to alot of people. If he is going to make these an issue then he should be explicit about his reasoning. My personal view is that he should be aware that the right wing media will take these small things and make them the ONLY issue for a lot of people.
On the plus side, if he really is taking a stand on this very minor issues then hopefully he will exhibit the same fortitude on real issues when he becomes POTUS
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What I see is a borderline socialist, based on what he wants to do for our country.
How in the world are you drawing this conclusion?
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Damn, I can't believe that I agree with you on something but then I think I alluded to this same point before. These things (hand over heart, pledge and the a much lesser extent the lapel pin) are symbolic gestures that are significant to alot of people. If he is going to make these an issue then he should be explicit about his reasoning. My personal view is that he should be aware that the right wing media will take these small things and make them the ONLY issue for a lot of people.
On the plus side, if he really is taking a stand on this very minor issues then hopefully he will exhibit the same fortitude on real issues when he becomes POTUS
Just don't make it a habit. :)
I agree. When the election will likely be very close again, you can't afford to dismiss large segments of the voting population. I'm sure active duty and retired military people have to be put off by this kind of stuff.
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Damn, I can't believe that I agree with you on something but then I think I alluded to this same point before. These things (hand over heart, pledge and the a much lesser extent the lapel pin) are symbolic gestures that are significant to alot of people. If he is going to make these an issue then he should be explicit about his reasoning. My personal view is that he should be aware that the right wing media will take these small things and make them the ONLY issue for a lot of people.
On the plus side, if he really is taking a stand on this very minor issues then hopefully he will exhibit the same fortitude on real issues when he becomes POTUS
Where did Obama open up with his platform plank about the pledge and lapel pins? The liberal media will bomb this guy for whatever he does. They'll even make shit up like they did with Gore.
So I'm not too concerned about swaying a certain segment of the US population that follows that minutia.
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Hillary draws huge crowds too. Either one will need much more than Democrat supporters to win the general. They need some crossover votes and swing voters (like me) to carry the day. He lost me when he started talking about his agenda, but some of his conduct will not have many conservatives and independents voting for him.
Sure he's smart. Everyone still in the race is smart. What I see is a borderline socialist, based on what he wants to do for our country.
But did he lose you b/c of the pressing flag lapel button issue?
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How in the world are you drawing this conclusion?
What I have gleaned from his speeches is this: he wants a federal takeover of the entire healthcare system, raise taxes on the "wealthy" for the benefit of the "middle class," use the government to ensure everyone has an equal economic opportunity, rather than relying primarily on the private sector. Every time I hear him talk specifics, it involves expanding the federal government.
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Just don't make it a habit. :)
I doubt that will be a problem.
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But did he lose you b/c of the pressing flag lapel button issue?
Nope. Before. I wouldn't base my vote on a flag pin. Even though I wear one everyday. :)
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Where did Obama open up with his platform plank about the pledge and lapel pins? The liberal media will bomb this guy for whatever he does. They'll even make shit up like they did with Gore.
So I'm not too concerned about swaying a certain segment of the US population that follows that minutia.
I'm not concerned with minutia either and as I said before I couldn't give a rat's ass about a lapel pin. Regarding the National Anthem in that video, personally I think he was just spacing out and now is backpedaling and trying to cover his ass with some lame excuse. I dont' think he was making an issue about it either but by being careless (IMO) he has allowed it to become the ONLY issue for a lot of people - granted mostly for those who would never consider voting for him in the first place.
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What I have gleaned from his speeches is this: he wants a federal takeover of the entire healthcare system, raise taxes on the "wealthy" for the benefit of the "middle class," use the government to ensure everyone has an equal economic opportunity, rather than relying primarily on the private sector. Every time I hear him talk specifics, it involves expanding the federal government.
Every presidential candidate talks about shrinking government to win. They are all liars. At least this guy is being up front.
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What I have gleaned from his speeches is this: he wants a federal takeover of the entire healthcare system, raise taxes on the "wealthy" for the benefit of the "middle class," use the government to ensure everyone has an equal economic opportunity, rather than relying primarily on the private sector. Every time I hear him talk specifics, it involves expanding the federal government.
FYI - the federal government is already involved in healthcare. The Dems are taking it on because the skyrocketing costs are huge problem for their constituents (actually to everyone but I never hear the Repugs talk about it much). If you're not aware of what's happened to the middle class in this country in the last 30 years and also not aware of why that's significant for everyone in the country and the health of our country in general then there's no point in trying to explain it in this thread
Last point - Bush has presided over the largest expansion in the federal governement and public debt of any president ever so I guess by your metric he's a socialist too.
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Every presidential candidate talks about shrinking government to win. They are all liars. At least this guy is being up front.
I don't know that every candidate intends to increase the size of the federal government. I certainly don't support someone who wants to do what this guy wants. Not good for the country IMO.
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I don't know that every candidate intends to increase the size of the federal government. I certainly don't support someone who wants to do what this guy wants. Not good for the country IMO.
Your main beef seems to be UHC. See StrawMan's post for why it's a good idea.
A healthy country is a productive country. And Obama/the democrats are upfront about it.
They don't hide the costs of their programs with borrowing from Red China.
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Jonah Goldberg is such an amateur.
And a horrible deceiver too. He really tells it like it ain't.
I know. I just love this new fascism spin to the same old, same old. It's beyond hilarious.
I don't know why I stupidly work. I think I'm going to call myself Mama Love and start a cult-like, religious movement with socio-political implications. The book writing part of it will be a snap... I'll just spin some lame Nazi association (seems to be "this year's fashion") to liberalism and democracy and voila... I'll have produced absolute shit between a cover that I can sell for $49.99 to frightened, naive people and make a fortune.
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In October, Obama told Iowa television station KCRG that he decided to stop wearing a U.S. flag lapel pin during the run-up to the Iraq war because it had become "a substitute for, I think, true patriotism."
"I decided I won't wear that pin on my chest. Instead, I'm going to try to tell the American people what I believe will make this country great and, hopefully, that will be a testimony to my patriotism," Obama said.
Who? Who does not want to wear the ribbon...pin?
(http://www.siyumhaseinfeld.com/images/chars/streettoughs.jpg)
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The irony is that everyone's panties are in a bunch over a lapel pin manufactured in China. I'd rather support someone who forgoes the cheap pin and gives the vets back their benefits. I think this is the voter he's going after.
P.S. Here's the other side of the story. According to a former marine posting his opinion, apparently all the candidates did a lousy job of observing the proper form.
http://thinkonthesethings.wordpress.com/2007/11/02/barack-obama-refused-to-say-the-pledge-of-allegiance-youve-been-played-for-a-daggone-fool/
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Your main beef seems to be UHC. See StrawMan's post for why it's a good idea.
A healthy country is a productive country. And Obama/the democrats are upfront about it.
They don't hide the costs of their programs with borrowing from Red China.
That's part of my problem with him. It's really his mindset I have trouble with. I don't want to live in Canada.
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That's part of my problem with him. It's really his mindset I have trouble with. I don't want to live in Canada.
Do you have a bigger problem with nationalized health care, or $5 trillion borrowed from China in 7 years?
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That's part of my problem with him. It's really his mindset I have trouble with. I don't want to live in Canada.
You're one of those naive people. Let me assure you, having lived in both countries, you are so far away from living in Canada you might as well compare it to Bora Bora instead. The differences between the mind sets of both countries is huge. And that gap is growing wider each day. Gay marriage and universal healthcare are a huge disaster to people like you because it undermines the religious-business sector's stronghold on your country. That's why you get so hysterical.
Most of the rest of the world understands that even if the US accepted just a few democratic precepts, it wouldn't harm society or anybody's way of life... and you'd still be 180 from being Canada in any way, shape or form. That's why we sometimes have a good laugh...
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You're one of those naive people. Let me assure you, having lived in both countries, you are so far away from living in Canada you might as well compare it to Bora Bora instead. The differences between the mind sets of both countries is huge. And that gap is growing wider each day. Gay marriage and universal healthcare are a huge disaster to people like you because it undermines the religious-business sector's stronghold on your country. That's why you get so hysterical.
Most of the rest of the world understands that even if the US accepted just a few democratic precepts, it wouldn't harm society or anybody's way of life... and you'd still be 180 from being Canada in any way, shape or form. That's why we sometimes have a good laugh...
What does gay marriage, religion, etc. have to do with the price of tea in China? And who is getting hysterical? lol. Oh brother. . . .
Anywho, I want our great country to stay as far away from Canada as possible. I've talked to enough people about their tax burden and read enough about problems with their healthcare system to conclude it's not something that would be good for America. There is no incentive to be successful when the government is going to take half of what you earn.
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There is no incentive to be successful when the government is going to take half of what you earn.
so I guess there are lot's of unsuccessful and unhappy people living on the dole in Canada?
or how about Sweden? Taxes aer ~ 50% but they get free education, cradle to grave health care, unemployment benefits that extend out for 5 years, ongoing adult education, etc..
Oh brother - now I've gotta whip out the eye roll
::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
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so I guess there are lot's of unsuccessful and unhappy people living on the dole in Canada?
or how about Sweden? Taxes aer ~ 50% but they get free education, cradle to grave health care, unemployment benefits that extend out for 5 years, ongoing adult education, etc..
Oh brother - now I've gotta whip out the eye roll
::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
::) I'm sure there are a lot of people who are content to live in a socialized country. Glad that's not the United States, although we do apparently have over 700,000 Canadians living in the U.S.
This is the kind of mindset I'm talking about. It's the kind of mindset we need to keep out of government.
If people want socialism, they should move to socialist countries. Funny how that isn’t happening on the grand scale of U.S. immigration. Funny how the rest of the world is flooding our borders.
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What does gay marriage, religion, etc. have to do with the price of tea in China? And who is getting hysterical? lol. Oh brother. . . .
Anywho, I want our great country to stay as far away from Canada as possible. I've talked to enough people about their tax burden and read enough about problems with their healthcare system to conclude it's not something that would be good for America. There is no incentive to be successful when the government is going to take half of what you earn.
I know... I'm certain those 5 people you spoke to "at length" pretty much have it all summarized for you. ::) There's no danger of the US becoming Canada any time soon, and pretty much every Canadian is aware of that fact and would tell you the same thing. Our societies are just way too different. Yet you go on and on about it ad nauseum... it just shows how little worldly experience you have. You're very isolated. And so yeah, I would say you have a hysterical, skewed view of things.
And religion's stronghold on the US has A LOT to do with why many Americans don't accept universal healthcare.
PS. Plus, those immigrants flooding your borders don't tend to insure themselves particularly well, so they are a burden on your healthcare system.
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I know... I'm certain those 5 people you spoke to "at length" pretty much have it all summarized for you. ::) There's no danger of the US becoming Canada any time soon, and pretty much every Canadian is aware of that fact and would tell you the same thing. Our societies are just way too different. Yet you go on and on about it ad nauseum... it just shows how little worldly experience you have. You're very isolated. And so yeah, I would say you have a hysterical, skewed view of things.
And religion's stronghold on the US has A LOT to do with why many Americans don't accept universal healthcare.
PS. Plus, those immigrants flooding your borders don't tend to insure themselves particularly well, so they are a burden on your healthcare system.
Ridiculous. On many fronts. But re the religion aspect, your contention that religion has a "stronghold on the US" and "has a "LOT to do with why many Americans don't accept universal healthcare" simply shows how little worldly experience you have and how naive you are about how our country operates. I have to assume you're not from the United States. You certainly sound like an arrogant foreigner.
The immigrants flooding our borders, including the hundreds of thousands of Canadians, want better opportunities, which they will get here. If Canada was some utopia they would lead the world in immigration. But it isn't and they don't. We do.
The immigrants who come here with no health insurance can get coverage depending on where they live, who they work for, etc. If they come to Hawaii, they will have "free" health insurance for themselves if they get a full-time job. If they can't get a job, there is state and federally funded care available.
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Ridiculous. On many fronts. But re the religion aspect, your contention that religion has a "stronghold on the US" and "has a "LOT to do with why many Americans don't accept universal healthcare" simply shows how little worldly experience you have and how naive you are about how our country operates. I have to assume you're not from the United States. You certainly sound like an arrogant foreigner.
The immigrants flooding our borders, including the hundreds of thousands of Canadians, want better opportunities, which they will get here. If Canada was some utopia they would lead the world in immigration. But it isn't and they don't. We do.
The immigrants who come here with no health insurance can get coverage depending on where they live, who they work for, etc. If they come to Hawaii, they will have "free" health insurance for themselves if they get a full-time job. If they can't get a job, there is state and federally funded care available.
Arrogant foreigner... I like that one, especially since my family has been cross polinating with your kind for eons...or rather, for some reason you all have seem to keep coming up and sweeping our women folk off their feet. Actually, I live among you, but far enough away that you and I will never have to argue in person. ;)
How could Canada possibly lead in immigration? The weather sucks and a large part of the country is inhabitable... but for the size and scope of the country it does well on that front. And I was only reminding you that since healthcare coverage is a choice in the US, many immigrants apparently "chose" not to cover themselves. I have personally always been employed, and so my ass is covered either way... I personally see the benefits of both systems, although they are very different. I just find it hilarious that people like you and headhunter think the world will drop out of the sky if you got universal healthcare. Most of you don't even know what it entails or how it works.
I'm on my way out the door, so don't have time to cover the religion aspect, but it's fairly obvious to most outsiders that religion does have a stronghold in your country, it's an anomoly actually... and that's why some governmental functions you'd see in other westernized (socialist, fascist) countries are still handled by organized religious institutions in the US.
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Well since i got lumped i here...i spoke with several Canadian AF pilots a few weesk ago. They were train in Cali and flying back to Canada. Some had served with a friend of mine who is a Marine C-130 pilot. All of us had atleast 15 years in and were all either Majors or LTC's. These guys asked us about the elections. They told us that many of them pay 55% in taxes and some have said that they have planned trips/vacations to get medical care quicker. Now maybe these are the only Canadians that hate their tax situation and medical care but ...i doubt it.
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Arrogant foreigner... I like that one, especially since my family has been cross polinating with your kind for eons...or rather, for some reason you all have seem to keep coming up and sweeping our women folk off their feet. Actually, I live among you, but far enough away that you and I will never have to argue in person. ;)
How could Canada possibly lead in immigration? The weather sucks and a large part of the country is inhabitable... but for the size and scope of the country it does well on that front. And I was only reminding you that since healthcare coverage is a choice in the US, many immigrants apparently "chose" not to cover themselves. I have personally always been employed, and so my ass is covered either way... I personally see the benefits of both systems, although they are very different. I just find it hilarious that people like you and headhunter think the world will drop out of the sky if you got universal healthcare. Most of you don't even know what it entails or how it works.
I'm on my way out the door, so don't have time to cover the religion aspect, but it's fairly obvious to most outsiders that religion does have a stronghold in your country, it's an anomoly actually... and that's why some governmental functions you'd see in other westernized (socialist, fascist) countries are still handled by organized religious institutions in the US.
Why do you live here instead of utopia? You never know if we will meet (you wouldn't know me if you saw me) but I'm all over the place. And both my parents are immigrants, BTW.
The weather in Canada is not unlike the weather in many parts of the United States, so that argument doesn't work. The obvious answer is the United States offers opportunities on the scale to which no other country can compare.
I don't think anyone said the sky will fall if the government takes over the healthcare system, but I think the concept is rife with problems. It would be a disaster. (Okay, that does sound sort of like a “sky is falling” comment.) And I know enough about the Canadian healthcare system to have an opinion.
Religion is greatly interwoven in our society, but it doesn't control our society. The First Amendment and their state equivalents work quite nicely in that regard.
How do you conclude religion is precluding socialized healthcare in this country?
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I don't even remotely see a link. How many hospitals are named after saints and how many religious groups of all faiths sponsor and support hospitals. Again..Lib attack on the Chritia right...which is a huge block of the voters in this country.