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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: SAMSON123 on October 16, 2010, 11:01:22 PM
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Abolish them and replace them with what? Or is the goal to increase the DUMBING DOWN?
In California, GOP congressional candidate David Harmer wants to eliminate public education. But you won't hear him touting his extreme views on the campaign trail.
By Nick Baumann
Mother Jones
Wed Oct. 13, 2010 7:00 PM PDT
It's fairly common for conservative political candidates to support eliminating the federal Department of Education. But in California, tea party darling and congressional candidate David Harmer has gone further. He's advocated eliminating public schools entirely and returning education to "the way things worked through the first century of American nationhood," when educational opportunities for poor people, African-Americans, women, the disabled, and others were, to say the least, extremely limited.
Harmer, the son of former California Lt. Gov. John Harmer, could soon be taking his anti-public school views to Washington. Nate Silver, the New York Times' polling guru, gives Harmer a 54.7 percent chance of ousting two-term Democrat Jerry McNerney in California's 11th Congressional District. So far, Harmer's views on education haven't become a major issue in the race. (Dem attacks have focused on his work for a credit card company accused of predatory lending, as well as his later work for JPMorgan Chase.) But Harmer's views on education—he's referred to public schools as "socialism in education"—are far from mainstream. They don't align with those of his own party's gubernatorial candidate: In her final debate against former Gov. Jerry Brown, Meg Whitman advocated strengthening California's public schools.
That's the opposite position from the that Harmer took in 2000, when he published a lengthy op-ed in the San Francisco Chronicle titled, "Abolish the Public Schools." In that Chronicle piece, Harmer argues that "government should exit the business of running and funding schools." He contends that would allow for "quantum leaps in educational quality and opportunity" and notes that he's simply pushing for a return to "the way things worked through the first century of American nationhood." Here's how he describes the wondrous world of early American education:
[L]iteracy levels among all classes, at least outside the South, matched or exceeded those prevailing now, and... public discourse and even tabloid content was pitched at what today would be considered a college-level audience. Schooling then was typically funded by parents or other family members responsible for the student, who paid modest tuition. If they couldn't afford it, trade guilds, benevolent associations, fraternal organizations, churches and charities helped. In this quintessentially American approach, free people acting in a free market found a variety of ways to pay for a variety of schools serving a variety of students, all without central command or control.
Yet historians say the early American education system was nothing like that. Back then, even high school was a luxury. "The high school at that point is a kind of elite form of education pretty much limited to the inner cities," says John Rury, an education historian at the University of Kansas. The rest of the system was far from comprehensive. What early schools taught, Rury says, were "very basic literacy and computational skills." Many schools only met four or five months a year, and their quality varied widely. "To get to a higher level of cognitive performance, you needed to have more teachers and longer school years, and that drove costs up," he explains. That led to modern taxpayer-supported schools. "Look around the world," says Rury. "Do we have an example of a modern, well-developed school system that operates on the model this person is advocating? We don't."
Early education was also far from inclusive. Minorities and the poor often had a lot of trouble getting schooling in early America, even in the North. "We're talking about going back to times when very, very limited numbers of people in the society had access to education, access to power, or access to elevating themselves in society," says Heather Andrea Williams, a professor at the University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill who has written a book about African-American education in early America. Many young women were also excluded or saw their schooling limited, according to MaryEllen McGuire, a former Obama administration education adviser who's now at the New America Foundation. "Education was not something that was available to most of our populace," she says. And until about 50 years ago, children with disabilities often couldn't get a proper education.
Harmer has a long history of pushing libertarian education policy. In the 1990s, he worked on education issues for the conservative Heritage Foundation, and published a book, School Choice: Why You Need It—How You Get It through the libertarian Cato Institute. He also coauthored an article in which public schooling is referred to as "socialism in education." In that piece, Harmer and coauthor Joseph Bast assure readers that they "are 100 percent committed to getting government out of the business of educating our children." They cite the "life-ruining effects of government schools" and argue for school vouchers—but only as a step toward for the eventual total elimination of the public school system.
Despite his record, Harmer's campaign is not highlighting his positions on education. His website notes that he published the book and "researched and advocated market-oriented approaches to education" at Heritage, but neither "education" nor "schools" appear on his campaign's "issues" page. Harmer's impassioned attacks on public schools are nowhere to be found on the website. When I asked his campaign to explain whether he still stands by the views expressed in the Chronicle op-ed, it didn't respond.
Harmer's is "a very extreme position," says Richard Kahlenberg, an education expert at the Century Foundation. "Most advocates of private school vouchers try to reasssure people by saying they will be a supplement to the traditional public school system and provide competition to public schools. I don't really know of serious people who advocate entirely abolishing the American public school system." Harmer, however, is apparently okay with subjecting his own children to the "life-ruining effects" of public schools: They reportedly attend public school in an upscale suburb of San Ramon. And should Harmer's master plan be carried out, his wife, Elayne, would be out of a job—she's a substitute teacher.
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I agree with this. Give eah parent 15k a year to spend on a private school for the kid.
No more pension problems, unions, etc.
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Charter schools are an awesome alternative right now... Public schools are garbage...
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Pupils do poorly in school because it isn't hip to be outwardly bright...
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The dept. of Edu. is a joke, no question...if anything should be done away with it should be this.
Something interesting I read on wiki...I'm not a big fan of posting wiki stuff but for now I'm not in the mood to dig anything else out.
Test results
Homeschool Students Compared to the National Norm Group in Grade Equivalent Units, Scholastic Achievement and Demographic Characteristics of Homeschool Students in 1998, Lawrence M. Rudner, University of Maryland, College Park. From Education Policy Analysis Archives
Academic Achievement of Homeschool, Catholic/Private and the Nation's Students, Scholastic Achievement and Demographic Characteristics of Homeschool Students in 1998, Lawrence M. Rudner, University of Maryland, College Park. From Education Policy Analysis Archives
Numerous studies have found that homeschooled students on average outperform their peers on standardized tests.[84] Homeschooling Achievement, a study conducted by National Home Education Research Institute (NHERI), supported the academic integrity of homeschooling. Among the homeschooled students who took the tests, the average homeschooled student outperformed his public school peers by 30 to 37 percentile points across all subjects. The study also indicates that public school performance gaps between minorities and genders were virtually non-existent among the homeschooled students who took the tests.[85]
New evidence has been found that homeschooled children are getting higher scores on the ACT and SAT tests. A study at Wheaton College in Illinois showed that the freshmen that were homeschooled for high school scored fifty-eight points higher on their SAT scores than those students who attended public or private schools. Most colleges look at the ACT and SAT scores of homeschooled children when considering them for acceptance to a college. On average, homeschooled children score eighty-one points higher than the national average on the SAT scores.
* Homeschool graduates are active and involved in their communities. 71% participate in an ongoing community service activity, like coaching a sports team, volunteering at a school, or working with a church or neighborhood association, compared with 37% of U.S. adults of similar ages from a traditional education background.
* Homeschool graduates are more involved in civic affairs and vote in much higher percentages than their peers. 76% of those surveyed between the ages of 18 and 24 voted within the last five years, compared with only 29% of the corresponding U.S. populace. The numbers are even greater in older age groups, with voting levels not falling below 95%, compared with a high of 53% for the corresponding U.S. populace.
* 58.9% report that they are "very happy" with life, compared with 27.6% for the general U.S. population. 73.2% find life "exciting", compared with 47.3%.[89]
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LOL
You're gonna kill the school system and replace it with home schooling?
LMFAO.
Good luck with that.
When shit couldn't get any dumber... FFS.
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Abolish them and replace them with what? Or is the goal to increase the DUMBING DOWN?
In California, GOP congressional candidate David Harmer wants to eliminate public education. But you won't hear him touting his extreme views on the campaign trail.
We spend an embarrassingly obscene amount of money on our children's public "education," yet our Physics/Engineering/Math/Medical graduate programs are crammed with foreign students who spent their formative years in classroom settings that "we" would consider a failure to the students.
Our public school system is a pathetic joke.
Any student who actually "learns" something in the abomination that is the American public school system does so out of self-motivation and self-education, not because of the public education they receive.
The public school system is a failure on all levels. If it were the "private school system," it would have eliminated itself long ago as a colossal business failure. The only reason it hasn't been eliminated yet is because "public" programs are allowed to fail miserably in their purpose.....and not only avoid elimination....but receive more and more funding each year.
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There are several things going on here:
Parenting plays a part in our education problem.
Over weighted Bureaucracy.
Classroom sizes too large.
Solutions off the top of my head:
Cut the bureaucracy by 70%. Corruption, waste, books (online based), etc.
Get parents mor involved in school functions and activities
Set maximum classroom size to 20
Doing away with pubic education would be a very uneducated move.
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LOL
You're gonna kill the school system and replace it with home schooling?
LMFAO.
Good luck with that.
When shit couldn't get any dumber... FFS.
I wouldn't do that, but have you met many home schooled kids? I know lots and to a boy and girl they have been more advanced academically than most of the "regular" school kids I've encountered.
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LOL
You're gonna kill the school system and replace it with home schooling?
LMFAO.
Good luck with that.
When shit couldn't get any dumber... FFS.
Why is it such a bad idea?
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Why is it such a bad idea?
because somewhere these are someones parents :D :D :D
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First thing needs to happen is get rid of the aft and uft.
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Read Super Freakanomics......much of what people think would improve school performance isn't true....ie: classroom sizes....nothing but a way for the teachers unions to get more teachers.....read the book people.
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Doesn't matter; we will never catch up to the Asian countries...
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Doesn't matter; we will never catch up to the Asian countries...
We don't have to. They're moving to the U.S. anyway.
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I hope so.
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We don't have to. They're moving to the U.S. anyway.
Great and what do most Americans do then to compete? Most Ivy league unis in the US these days are nearly 50% Asian...says a lot.
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Great and what do most Americans do then to compete? Most Ivy league unis in the US these days are nearly 50% Asian...says a lot.
Americans who happen to have an Asian ethnic background are still Americans.
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If asians earned their slots, good for them.
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Americans who happen to have an Asian ethnic background are still Americans.
lol, gotta love your pragmatism.
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Great and what do most Americans do then to compete? Most Ivy league unis in the US these days are nearly 50% Asian...says a lot.
JaguarEnterprises tried to make up statistics about this just like you're doing and was subsequently proven wrong. One would think of a pseudo-academic like yourself wouldn't follow suit.
Here's a little hint, though. Not even MIT or Cal Tech, two schools with large Asian populations, are 50% Asian. I think Cal Tech is something like 40%, but many of those are Asian-Americans. Asians, including Asian-Americans, make up roughly 13% of the student population at Yale. 13% < 50%. ;)
Nice try, spinmeister.
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Read Super Freakanomics......much of what people think would improve school performance isn't true....ie: classroom sizes....nothing but a way for the teachers unions to get more teachers.....read the book people.
Class room size is the one thing that's going to change it. I am not planning to read the book.
What's their argument about class size?
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Great and what do most Americans do then to compete? Most Ivy league unis in the US these days are nearly 50% Asian...says a lot.
Almost all Universities in the United States are below 15% foreign student enrollment.
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LOL
You're gonna kill the school system and replace it with home schooling?
LMFAO.
Good luck with that.
When shit couldn't get any dumber... FFS.
I never said that, the point was to show a comparison. Stats show us those who are publicly educated are far inferior to those educated at home. What does this tell us? Public EDU sucks.
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Almost all Universities in the United States are below 15% foreign student enrollment.
But in the hard sciences it's heavily Asian/Indian. Fine arts, poly sci, business etc is where all the non-white are
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I agree with this. Give eah parent 15k a year to spend on a private school for the kid.
No more pension problems, unions, etc.
Yep, let private schools compete for dollars and you'd see a huge increase in test scores and quality of education since parents could pick the best schools and each school would compete. Plus you can have more schools with various emphasis just like private colleges do now. They still would all teach the basics, but add extra focus on certain subjects like arts magnates schools do now.
You'd have to phase it in of course to allow private schools time to grow and increase in number to meet the demand.
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Nah It wouldn't work, sounds good though but when you think about it, they will eventually turn into the Walmarts of education similar to the governments version we have now.
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I've read a little on Wiki and elsewhere about US, Jap and other school systems.
This much seems evident:
*USA spends as much as Switzerland on the public school system (#1).
*Public schools have fewer teachers than private schools. Ie, there are more non-teachers, eg administrators, sports team coaches et al hired at public schools.
So it's not really the funding that is the problem.
The problem is probably how the money is being used. Too many administrators, too many football coaches... Just too many people not teaching.
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We need some more "Crazy" Joe Clark types, running the public schools. Maybe then, the quality of education will pick up.
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We need some more "Crazy" Joe Clark types, running the public schools. Maybe then, the quality of education will pick up.
Exactly. We don't want a good principle. We want Mr. Clark!
"You smoke crack, dontcha boy?"
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LOL
You're gonna kill the school system and replace it with home schooling?
LMFAO.
Good luck with that.
When shit couldn't get any dumber... FFS.
Aside from the fact that most ppl saying this don't understand what home schooling actually entails, or the limitations to social development...
They fail to think about what happens when every 2-income home in america suddenly becomes a 1-income family, as someone has to actually stay home and do the schooling.
Not to mention the 6 and 1/2 million Americans who currently work as teachers who would suddenly be out of work. And the support staff, bus drivers, etc...
;)
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Aside from the fact that most ppl saying this don't understand what home schooling actually entails, or the limitations to social development...
They fail to think about what happens when every 2-income home in america suddenly becomes a 1-income family, as someone has to actually stay home and do the schooling.
Not to mention the 6 and 1/2 million Americans who currently work as teachers who would suddenly be out of work. And the support staff, bus drivers, etc...
;)
It depends on the family. I can tell you firsthand that years ago, my wife and I actually had more money when she didn't work and stayed home, schooling the kids (Less wear and tear on the cars, lower grocery bills, saving money for child care, etc.).
This was especially true, when my youngest daughter was born. Do you know how much child care for infants goes, these days?
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Exactly. We don't want a good principle. We want Mr. Clark!
"You smoke crack, dontcha boy?"
:)
(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSe3_wJc2piW0faFHMzFoazGqVhjKGK0TBZ4hKl-pn4MwMEUDdE)
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Charter schools are an awesome alternative right now... Public schools are garbage...
Most public schools here in CA are nothing more than day care for wetback mexicans. All the white people and higher end hispanics send kids to private/charter schools.
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Most public schools here in CA are nothing more than day care for wetback mexicans. All the white people and higher end hispanics send kids to private/charter schools.
I went to public school, private school and than graduated from a charter high school.
Our local public schools are unbelievable... :-X
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Like everything else the govt does - they are failure factories.
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Charter schools are an awesome alternative right now... Public schools are garbage...
My son graduated from a charter high school 2 years ago. They are a good deal as long as they get too big. It's one of the better things california did.