Author Topic: Religion, the Founding Fathers, and the Constitution  (Read 14075 times)

loco

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Re: Religion, the Founding Fathers, and the Constitution
« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2008, 09:33:55 PM »
fucking Loco ::) 

God bless you, Hugo!   ;D

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Re: Religion, the Founding Fathers, and the Constitution
« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2008, 09:35:30 PM »
The absolutely humongous article Loco copied and pasted makes your eyes hurt.

You copied and pasted about the Treaty of Tripoli first.  How about reading my post and addressing it?

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Re: Religion, the Founding Fathers, and the Constitution
« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2008, 09:39:36 PM »
Yes and no double B.

Problem is our forefathers were religious zealots who left England because the society was too permissive. You really can't expect us to roll back the clock and have a Puritian nation.

They obviously decided on no state religion for a reason. We have laws because people are stupid and don't know where to draw lines.

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Re: Religion, the Founding Fathers, and the Constitution
« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2008, 09:40:25 PM »

only if you own slaves and sexually molest them, similar to Thomas Jefferson.   ;)


NT

The Founders Believed Slavery Was Fundamentally Wrong.
The overwhelming majority of early Americans and most of America's leaders did not own slaves. Some did own slaves, which were often inherited (like George Washington at age eleven), but many of these people set them free after independence. Most Founders believed that slavery was wrong and that it should be abolished. William Livingston, signer of the Constitution and Governor of New Jersey, wrote to an anti-slavery society in New York (John Jay, the first Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court and President of the Continental Congress, was President of this society):

I would most ardently wish to become a member of it [the anti-slavery society] and . . . I can safely promise them that neither my tongue, nor my pen, nor purse shall be wanting to promote the abolition of what to me appears so inconsistent with humanity and Christianity. . . . May the great and the equal Father of the human race, who has expressly declared His abhorrence of oppression, and that He is no respecter of persons, succeed a design so laudably calculated to undo the heavy burdens, to let the oppressed go free, and to break every yoke. 11

John Quincy Adams, who worked tirelessly for years to end slavery, spoke of the anti-slavery views of the southern Founders, including Jefferson who owned slaves:

The inconsistency of the institution of domestic slavery with the principles of the Declaration of Independence was seen and lamented by all the southern patriots of the Revolution; by no one with deeper and more unalterable conviction than by the author of the Declaration himself. No charge of insincerity or hypocrisy can be fairly laid to their charge. Never from their lips was heard one syllable of attempt to justify the institution of slavery. They universally considered it as a reproach fastened upon them by the unnatural step-mother country and they saw that before the principles of the Declaration of Independence, slavery, in common with every other mode of oppression, was destined sooner or later to be banished from the earth. Such was the undoubting conviction of Jefferson to his dying day. In the Memoir of His Life, written at the age of seventy-seven, he gave to his countrymen the solemn and emphatic warning that the day was not distant when they must hear and adopt the general emancipation of their slaves. “Nothing is more certainly written,” said he, “in the book of fate, than that these people are to be free.” 12

The Founding Fathers believed that blacks had the same God-given inalienable rights as any other peoples. James Otis of Massachusetts said in 1764 that “The colonists are by the law of nature freeborn, as indeed all men are, white or black.” 13

There had always been free blacks in America who owned property, voted, and had the same rights as other citizens. 14 Most of the men who gave us the Declaration and the Constitution wanted to see slavery abolished. For example, George Washington wrote in a letter to Robert Morris:

I can only say that there is not a man living who wishes more sincerely than I do to see a plan adopted for the abolition of it [slavery]. 15

Charles Carroll, Signer of Declaration from Maryland, wrote:

Why keep alive the question of slavery? It is admitted by all to be a great evil. 16

Benjamin Rush, Signer from Pennsylvania, stated:

Domestic slavery is repugnant to the principles of Christianity. . . . It is rebellion against the authority of a common Father. It is a practical denial of the extent and efficacy of the death of a common Savior. It is an usurpation of the prerogative of the great Sovereign of the universe who has solemnly claimed an exclusive property in the souls of men. 17

Father of American education, and contributor to the ideas in the Constitution, Noah Webster wrote:

Justice and humanity require it [the end of slavery] — Christianity commands it. Let every benevolent . . . pray for the glorious period when the last slave who fights for freedom shall be restored to the possession of that inestimable right. 18

Quotes from John Adams reveal his strong anti-slavery views:

Every measure of prudence, therefore, ought to be assumed for the eventual total extirpation of slavery from the United States. . . . I have, through my whole life, held the practice of slavery in . . . abhorrence. 19
My opinion against it [slavery] has always been known. . . . [N]ever in my life did I own a slave. 20

When Benjamin Franklin served as President of the Pennsylvania Society of Promoting the Abolition of Slavery he declared: “Slavery is . . . an atrocious debasement of human nature.” 21

Thomas Jefferson's original draft of the Declaration included a strong denunciation of slavery, declaring the king's perpetuation of the slave trade and his vetoing of colonial anti-slavery measures as one reason the colonists were declaring their independence:

He [King George III] has waged cruel war against human nature itself, violating its most sacred rights of life and liberty in the persons of a distant people who never offended him, captivating and carrying them into slavery in another hemisphere. . . . Determined to keep open a market where MEN should be bought and sold, he has prostituted his negative for suppressing every legislative attempt to prohibit or restrain this execrable commerce. 22

Prior to independence, anti-slavery measures by the colonists were thwarted by the British government. Franklin wrote in 1773:

A disposition to abolish slavery prevails in North America, that many of Pennsylvanians have set their slaves at liberty, and that even the Virginia Assembly have petitioned the King for permission to make a law for preventing the importation of more into that colony. This request, however, will probably not be granted as their former laws of that kind have always been repealed.. 23

The Founders took action against slavery.
The founders did not just believe slavery was an evil that needed to be abolished, and they did not just speak against it, but they acted on their beliefs. During the Revolutionary War black slaves who fought won their freedom in every state except South Carolina and Georgia. 24

Many of the founders started and served in anti-slavery societies. Franklin and Rush founded the first such society in America in 1774. John Jay was president of a similar society in New York. Other Founding Fathers serving in anti-slavery societies included: William Livingston (Constitution signer), James Madison, Richard Bassett, James Monroe, Bushrod Washington, Charles Carroll, William Few, John Marshall, Richard Stockton, Zephaniah Swift, and many more. 25

As the Founders worked to free themselves from enslavement to Britain, based upon laws of God and nature, they also spoke against slavery and took steps to stop it. Abolition grew as principled resistance to the tyranny of England grew, since both were based upon the same ideas. This worked itself out on a personal as well as policy level, as seen in the following incident in the life of William Whipple, signer of the Declaration of Independence from New Hampshire. Dwight writes:

When General Whipple set out to join the army, he took with him for his waiting servant, a colored man named Prince, one whom he had imported from Africa many years before. He was a slave whom his master highly valued. As he advanced on his journey, he said to Prince, “If we should be called into an engagement with the enemy, I expect you will behave like a man of courage, and fight like a brave soldier for your country.” Prince feelingly replied, “Sir, I have no inducement to fight, I have no country while I am a slave. If I had my freedom, I would endeavor to defend it to the last drop of my blood.” This reply of Prince produced the effect on his master's heart which Prince desired. The general declared him free on the spot. 26

The Founders opposed slavery based upon the principle of the equality of all men. Throughout history many slaves have revolted but it was believed (even by those enslaved) that some people had the right to enslave others. The American slave protests were the first in history based on principles of God-endowed liberty for all. It was not the secularists who spoke out against slavery but the ministers and Christian statesmen.

Before independence, some states had tried to restrict slavery in different ways (e.g. Virginia had voted to end the slave trade in 1773), but the English government had not allowed it. Following independence and victory in the war, the rule of the mother country was removed, leaving freedom for each state to deal with the slavery problem. Within about 20 years of the 1783 Treaty of Peace with Britain, the northern states abolished slavery: Pennsylvania and Massachusetts in 1780; Connecticut and Rhode Island in 1784; New Hampshire in 1792; Vermont in 1793; New York in 1799; and New Jersey in 1804.

The Northwest Ordinance (1787, 1789), which governed the admission of new states into the union from the then northwest territories, forbid slavery. Thus, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Iowa all prohibited slavery. This first federal act dealing with slavery was authored by Rufus King (signer of the Constitution) and signed into law by President George Washington.

Although no Southern state abolished slavery, there was much anti-slavery sentiment. Many anti-slavery societies were started, especially in the upper South. Many Southern states considered proposals abolishing slavery, for example, the Virginia legislature in 1778 and 1796. When none passed, many, like Washington, set their slaves free, making provision for their well being. Following independence, “Virginia changed her laws to make it easier for individuals to emancipate slaves,” 27 though over time the laws became more restrictive in Virginia.

While most states were moving toward freedom for slaves, the deep South (Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina) was largely pro-slavery. Yet, even so, the Southern courts before around 1840 generally took the position that slavery violated the natural rights of blacks. For example, the Mississippi Supreme Court ruled in 1818:

Slavery is condemned by reason and the laws of nature. It exists and can only exist, through municipal regulations, and in matters of doubt,...courts must lean in favorem vitae et libertatis [in favor of life and liberty]. 28

The same court ruled in 1820 that the slave “is still a human being, and possesses all those rights, of which he is not deprived by the positive provisions of the law.” 29

Free blacks were citizens and voted in most Northern states and Virginia, North Carolina, and South Carolina. In Baltimore prior to 1800, more blacks voted than whites; but in 1801 and 1809, Maryland began to restrict black voting and in 1835 North Carolina prohibited it. Other states made similar restrictions, but a number of Northern states allowed blacks to vote and hold office. In Massachusetts this right was given nearly a decade before the American Revolution and was never taken away, either before or after the Civil War.

References:

11. William Livingston, The Papers of William Livingston, Carl E. Prince, editor (New Brunswick: Rutgers University Press, 1988), Vol. V, p. 255, to the New York Manumission Society on June 26, 1786. In "The Founding Fathers and Slavery" by David Barton, unpublished paper, p. 5.
12. John Quincy Adams, An Oration Delivered Before the Inhabitants of the Town of Newburyport, at Their Request, on the Sixty-First Anniversary of the Declaration of Independence, July 4th, 1837 (Newburyport: Charles Whipple, 1837), p. 50.
13. Rights of the Colonies, in Bernard Bailyn, ed., Pamphlets of the American Revolution (Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1965), p. 439. In "Was the American Founding Unjust? The Case of Slavery," by Thomas G. West, Principles, a quarterly review of The Claremont Institute, Spring/Summer 1992, p. 1.
14. Hart, p. 53.
15. Letter to Robert Morris, April 12, 1786, in George Washington: A Collection, ed. W.B. Allen (Indianapolis: Liberty Fund, 1988), p. 319.
16. Kate Mason Rowland, Life and Correspondence of Charles Carroll of Carrollton (New York & London: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1898), Vol. II, p. 321, to Robert Goodloe Harper, April 23, 1820. In Barton, p. 3.
17. Benjamin Rush, Minutes of the Proceedings of a Convention of Delegates from the Abolition Societies Established in Different Parts of the United States Assembled at Philadelphia (Philadelphia: Zachariah Poulson, 1794), p. 24.. In Barton, p. 4.
18. Noah Webster, Effect of Slavery on Morals and Industry (Hartford: Hudson and Goodwin, 1793), p. 48. In Barton, p. 4.
19. Adams to Robert J. Evans, June 8, 1819, in Adrienne Koch and William Peden, eds., Selected Writings of John and John Quincy Adams (New York: Knopf, 1946), p. 209. In West, p. 2.
20. John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, ed. (Boston: Little, Brown, and Co., 1854), Vol. IX, pp. 92-93, to George Churchman and Jacob Lindley on January 24, 1801. In Barton, p. 3.
21. "An Address to the Public from the Pennsylvania Society for Promoting the Abolition of Slavery" (1789), in Franklin, Writings (New York: Library of America, 1987), p. 1154. In West, p. 2.
22. The Life and Selected Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Adrienne Koch and William Peden, eds. (New York: Random House, 1944), p. 25.
23. Benjamin Franklin, The Works of Benjamin Franklin, Jared Sparks, ed. (Boston: Tappan, Whittemore, and Mason, 1839), Vol. VIII, p. 42, to the Rev. Dean Woodward on April 10, 1773.
24. Benjamin Quarles, The Negro and the American Revolution (Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press, 1961), chaps. 4-6. In West, p. 2.
25. Barton, p. 5.
26. N. Dwight, The Lives of the Signers of the Declaration of Independence (New York: A.S. Barnes & Burr, 1860), p. 11.
27. West, p. 4.
28. Harry v. Decker & Hopkins (1818), in West, p. 4.
29. Mississippi v. Jones (1820), in West, p. 4.

loco

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Re: Religion, the Founding Fathers, and the Constitution
« Reply #29 on: October 24, 2008, 09:42:53 PM »
You're right loco.. Here's a quote from Jefferson regarding slavery:

Quote
Sir,--I have received the favor of your letter of August 17th, and with it the volume you were so kind to send me on the "Literature of Negroes". Be assured that no person living wishes more sincerely than I do, to see a complete refutation of the doubts I have myself entertained and expressed on the grade of understanding allotted to them by nature, and to find that in this respect they are on a par with ourselves. My doubts were the result of personal observation on the limited sphere of my own State, where the opportunity for the development of their genius were not favorable and those of exercising it still less so. I expressed them therefore with great hesitation; but whatever be their degree of talent it is no measure of their rights. Because Sir Isaac Newton was superior to others in understanding, he was not therefore lord of the person or property of others. On this subject they are gaining daily in the opinions of nations, and hopeful advances are making toward their re-establishment on an equal footing with the other colors of the human family. I pray you therefore to accept my thanks for the many instances you have enabled me to observe of respectable intelligence in that race of men, which cannot fail to have effect in hastening the day of their relief; and to be assured of the sentiments of high and just esteem and consideration which I tender to yourself with all sincerity.

^ Letter of February 25, 1809 from Thomas Jefferson to French author Monsieur Gregoire, from The Writings of Thomas Jefferson (H. A. Worthington, ed.), Volume V, p. 429. Citation and quote from Morris Kominsky, The Hoaxers, pp. 110-111.



drkaje

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Re: Religion, the Founding Fathers, and the Constitution
« Reply #30 on: October 24, 2008, 09:47:52 PM »
Jefferson probably figured they couldn't survive without the slaves.

What's people's excuse now? :)

Dos Equis

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Re: Religion, the Founding Fathers, and the Constitution
« Reply #31 on: October 24, 2008, 10:07:52 PM »
No one did.

The religion of the founding fathers has absolutely dick to do with what they wrote when creating the Constitution. We agree that they wanted to keep church and state separate. Great.

But whether they believed in God or not is irrelevant and is not what the discussion was about.

If you believe that the morals and values of the Foundation of the U.S (namely the Constitution) comes from that of the christianity, it is up to you to prove it. Saying that the Founding Fathers had personal beliefs in this and that doesn't cut it. As I've said before and yet again, most of them were Deists and Freemasons which further hollows your argument.

If the "religion of the founding fathers" is irrelevant, then why did you say the Founding Fathers were secular?  They were not.  How do you explain George Washington's prayer book?  Why would he have a prayer book if he was "secular"? 

Dos Equis

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Re: Religion, the Founding Fathers, and the Constitution
« Reply #32 on: October 24, 2008, 10:12:51 PM »
These assclowns like BB will cling to it like gospel and ignore whatever else you put in front of them... I see no point, it's the same thing over and over with these fucking douchbags...  Selective vision.

Translation:  you didn't read it.  Probably wouldn't understand it if you did read it.   :)

Dos Equis

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Re: Religion, the Founding Fathers, and the Constitution
« Reply #33 on: October 24, 2008, 10:15:44 PM »
God bless you, Hugo!   ;D

I have to learn how to do that.   :)

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Re: Religion, the Founding Fathers, and the Constitution
« Reply #34 on: October 24, 2008, 10:16:38 PM »
Yes and no double B.

Problem is our forefathers were religious zealots who left England because the society was too permissive. You really can't expect us to roll back the clock and have a Puritian nation.

They obviously decided on no state religion for a reason. We have laws because people are stupid and don't know where to draw lines.

I agree in part.  The original settlers fled religious persecution in Europe and set up the same type of intolerable situation in the colonies.  That's what the Constitution was designed to fix.  But I think it's pretty clear the Founders were Christian or at a minimum believed in God.  You see that all over the place in their rhetoric.   

My questions were not necessarily conclusions. 

big L dawg

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Re: Religion, the Founding Fathers, and the Constitution
« Reply #35 on: October 24, 2008, 10:33:51 PM »
DAWG

big L dawg

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Re: Religion, the Founding Fathers, and the Constitution
« Reply #36 on: October 24, 2008, 10:34:41 PM »
DAWG

loco

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Re: Religion, the Founding Fathers, and the Constitution
« Reply #37 on: October 25, 2008, 04:47:28 AM »
Hey, nobody wants a theocracy and neither did the Founding Fathers. That's not what we are saying here.  We're just saying that the Founding Fathers were Christians and that the nation was founded on Judeo-Christian principles.

George Washington

Circular letter of farewell to the Army, 8 June 1783:
I now make it my earnest prayer, that God would have you, and the State over which you preside, in his holy protection, that he would incline the hearts of the Citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to Government, to entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another, for their fellow Citizens of the United States at large, and particularly for their brethren who have served in the Field, and finally, that he would most graciously be pleased to dispose us all, to do Justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that Charity, humility and pacific temper of mind, which were the Characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed Religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things, we can never hope to be a happy Nation.

First Inaugural Address, 30 April 1789:
No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the invisible hand, which conducts the Affairs of men more than the People of the United States. Every step, by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation, seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency.

First Inaugural Address, 30 April 1789:
The propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right, which Heaven itself has ordained.

Letter to General Assembly of Presbyterian Churches, May 1789:
While all men within our territories are protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of their consciences; it is rationally expected from them in return, that they will be emulous of evincing the sanctity of their professions by the innocence of their lives, and the beneficence of their actions: for no man, who is profligate in his morals, or a bad member of the civil community, can possibly be a true Christian, or a credit to his own religious society.

Farewell Address, 1796:
Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, Religion and Morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men and Citizens.… And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion.… Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.

loco

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Re: Religion, the Founding Fathers, and the Constitution
« Reply #38 on: October 25, 2008, 04:50:21 AM »
John Adams

Letter to Zabdiel Adams, 21 June 1776:
Statesmen, my dear Sir, may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free Constitution is pure Virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People in a greater Measure, than they have it now, they may change their Rulers and the forms of Government, but they will not obtain a lasting liberty.

Letter to Abigail Adams, 3 July 1776:
The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epocha in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary festival. It ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires, and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward for evermore.

Diary, 26 July 1796:
The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity, and humanity.

Letter to Jefferson, 1813:
The Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount contain my religion.

Address to the Military, 11 October 1798:
We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other.

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Re: Religion, the Founding Fathers, and the Constitution
« Reply #39 on: October 25, 2008, 05:01:25 AM »
If the "religion of the founding fathers" is irrelevant, then why did you say the Founding Fathers were secular?  They were not.  How do you explain George Washington's prayer book?  Why would have a prayer book if he was "secular"? 

Oh gosh.

Don't mistake secular for atheism or anti theism. The foundation of the country is indeed secular even though the founders were religious.

What's so hard to grasp here?
from incomplete data

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Re: Religion, the Founding Fathers, and the Constitution
« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2008, 05:05:44 AM »
You copied and pasted about the Treaty of Tripoli first.  How about reading my post and addressing it?

I did read and address your post in the other thread.

When I copied and pasted the Tripoli thingy, it was ONE sentence long. Takes you about 10 seconds to read. Your article takes about 10-15 minutes to swiftly read through. There's no comparison.
from incomplete data

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Re: Religion, the Founding Fathers, and the Constitution
« Reply #41 on: October 25, 2008, 05:08:02 AM »
Loco, FFS, I'm not debating you if you keep copying and pasting like that. You probably couldn't care less, but still.
from incomplete data

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Re: Religion, the Founding Fathers, and the Constitution
« Reply #42 on: October 25, 2008, 05:08:10 AM »
Oh gosh.

Don't mistake secular for atheism or anti theism. The foundation of the country is indeed secular even though the founders were religious.

What's so hard to grasp here?

You were not talking about the foundation of the country.  You were talking about the founders when you said that they were secular.  You were wrong about them.  Secular people do not practice religion at all and religion is not a significant part of their life.  Now you are changing your story.

loco

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Re: Religion, the Founding Fathers, and the Constitution
« Reply #43 on: October 25, 2008, 05:09:23 AM »
Loco, FFS, I'm not debating you if you keep copying and pasting like that. You probably couldn't care less, but still.

I had to read it.  If you want to debate me, then you have to read it too, and address it.  Reading won't kill you, and who knows, you might even learn something.

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Re: Religion, the Founding Fathers, and the Constitution
« Reply #44 on: October 25, 2008, 05:11:50 AM »
I did read and address your post in the other thread.

When I copied and pasted the Tripoli thingy, it was ONE sentence long. Takes you about 10 seconds to read. Your article takes about 10-15 minutes to swiftly read through. There's no comparison.

That's too easy, copying and pasting a small part of the whole thing, only the part that on the surface supports your idea, taken out of context.

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Re: Religion, the Founding Fathers, and the Constitution
« Reply #45 on: October 25, 2008, 05:13:21 AM »
I had to read it.  If you want to debate me, then you have to read it too, and address it.  Reading won't kill you, and who knows, you might even learn something.

How come most of the people on this board except you and coach can write original posts with solid arguments in them without copying and pasting like maniac?
from incomplete data

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Re: Religion, the Founding Fathers, and the Constitution
« Reply #46 on: October 25, 2008, 05:18:55 AM »
That's too easy, copying and pasting a small part of the whole thing, only the part that on the surface supports your idea, taken out of context.

HA! What exactly is taken out of context here? They all voted for that treaty which clearly states that America is not founded upon the christian religion.

YOU are the one that's getting away too easy. You copy and paste gigantic articles from authors of questionable bias that contains nothing but quotes and strange reasons why america wouldn't be secular at first. I still see NO proof how the founders own personal religious values played any role in the creation of the Constitution.

Seems like you are implying that the Founders would've lacked the common sense to write the Constitution without christianity which I think is absolute bullshit.
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Re: Religion, the Founding Fathers, and the Constitution
« Reply #47 on: October 25, 2008, 05:20:30 AM »
How come most of the people on this board except you and coach can write original posts with solid arguments in them without copying and pasting like maniac?

Let Coach and most people on this board do it their way, and let me do it my way.  I had to read it, and you have to read it too if you want to debate me.  

Unlike others on these boards, I actually read this stuff before I post it.  Some of it I had known for years and just had to find where to copy and paste it from so that I won't have to type so much.  

Some people just google stuff, post it without reading it, but when I read it, I find that what they posted actually refutes their own position.  So then I used what they posted against them on the debate.  They would have known this had they actually read it before posting it.

My own ideas mean nothing if I don't have the references and sources to substantiate it and back it up.  That's what I'm doing here.

loco

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Re: Religion, the Founding Fathers, and the Constitution
« Reply #48 on: October 25, 2008, 05:21:47 AM »
HA! What exactly is taken out of context here? They all voted for that treaty which clearly states that America is not founded upon the christian religion.

YOU are the one that's getting away too easy. You copy and paste gigantic articles from authors of questionable bias that contains nothing but quotes and strange reasons why america wouldn't be secular at first. I still see NO proof how the founders own personal religious values played any role in the creation of the Constitution.

Seems like you are implying that the Founders would've lacked the common sense to write the Constitution without christianity which I think is absolute bullshit.

Proof that you did not read it.  It explains the reason and the context.  Check my many references and see if I just made it up.

lovemonkey

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Re: Religion, the Founding Fathers, and the Constitution
« Reply #49 on: October 25, 2008, 05:24:02 AM »
You were not talking about the foundation of the country.  You were talking about the founders when you said that they were secular.  You were wrong about them.  Secular people do not practice religion at all and religion is not a significant part of their life.  Now you are changing your story.

Yes we were indeed discussing the >foundation of america<, not the founders themselves of whom which most were deists and Freemasons. lol.

Quote
The values and morals of the christian faith are what America was built upon.

This was the statement that originally sparked the discussion. Please tell me where in the new testament it says that church and gov must be kept separate. Then prove the link between that and the constitution.
from incomplete data