The Christian Response to Homosexuality

[Butterbean]

Beach Bum, STella, MCWAY, please correct me if I'm wrong.

The Bible does not say that being attracted to somebody of the same gender is a sin.  It only says that having sex with somebody of the same gender is a sin. 

If you applied Christ's teachings on adultery to this, then you could stretch this to saying that according to the Bible, looking at somebody of the same gender with lust is a sin in your heart.

If this is true, then it does not matter whether or not being attracted to somebody of the same gender is genetic.  It is not a sin.  It is a sin only if you look at somebody of the same gender with lust or if you have sex with somebody of the same gender.

I've pretty much held the view of the act being the stated sin and not the condition of being attracted to the same sex.  But I never really thought about the lusting part of it which, as you say, is stated as being like adultery/sin in the heart.

One thing I think is so misleading and hate to see is when people focus on "so and so is homosexual so he/she is going to hell" or "you Christians think all homosexuals are going to hell."
 
IMO, neither of those are exclusively true and here is why.....I believe there are people that struggle w/homosexuality that may truly have accepted Christ as Savior.  I also believe that largely, a person lusts after another or engages in homosexual behavior long after they have knowingly committed other sins.

I hate how homosexuals are made to feel like the plague by people that don't understand the bible which states we are all lost w/o Christ as Savior. 

God loves homosexuals just as He loves heteros.  Thankfully Christ has made a way for us all to go to heaven

[Joel_A]

Is a 8 month old fetus a baby, a human being, with rights?  How about a 23 week old fetus?

When did I say to you that I'm a conservative?  When did I say to you that I feel a need to outlaw abortion?  Do you even know what country I'm from?

This is getting silly. I really don't want it to.


You are a conservative. Where you're from has nothing to do with it. And I assumed you want to outlaw abortion (based on your remarks) I didn't just come up with it. It's up to you tell me otherwise.

[loco]

I've pretty much held the view of the act being the stated sin and not the condition of being attracted to the same sex.  But I never really thought about the lusting part of it which, as you say, is stated as being like adultery/sin in the heart.

One thing I think is so misleading and hate to see is when people focus on "so and so is homosexual so he/she is going to hell" or "you Christians think all homosexuals are going to hell."
 
IMO, neither of those are exclusively true and here is why.....I believe there are people that struggle w/homosexuality that may truly have accepted Christ as Savior.  I also believe that largely, a person lusts after another or engages in homosexual behavior long after they have knowingly committed other sins.

I hate how homosexuals are made to feel like the plague by people that don't understand the bible which states we are all lost w/o Christ as Savior. 

God loves homosexuals just as He loves heteros.  Thankfully Christ has made a way for us all to go to heaven

Thank you very much, STella, for bringing the thread back to topic!   

[Joel_A]

I've pretty much held the view of the act being the stated sin and not the condition of being attracted to the same sex.  But I never really thought about the lusting part of it which, as you say, is stated as being like adultery/sin in the heart.

One thing I think is so misleading and hate to see is when people focus on "so and so is homosexual so he/she is going to hell" or "you Christians think all homosexuals are going to hell."
 
IMO, neither of those are exclusively true and here is why.....I believe there are people that struggle w/homosexuality that may truly have accepted Christ as Savior.  I also believe that largely, a person lusts after another or engages in homosexual behavior long after they have knowingly committed other sins.

I hate how homosexuals are made to feel like the plague by people that don't understand the bible which states we are all lost w/o Christ as Savior. 

God loves homosexuals just as He loves heteros.  Thankfully Christ has made a way for us all to go to heaven

If all Christians were like you, STella, the world will definitely be a better place. I'm serious.


Unfortunately, you and I know that's not the case.

[loco]

If all Christians were like you, STella, the world will definitely be a better place. I'm serious.


Unfortunately, you and I know that's not the case.

I'm definitely not like STella...she's much prettier and much nicer than I am..., but I definitely agree with her post!

[Butterbean]

Thank you very much, STella, for bringing the thread back to topic!   

I guess if we get off again I can split and move stuff!

If all Christians were like you, STella, the world will definitely be a better place. I'm serious.


Unfortunately, you and I know that's not the case.

That is very nice of you to say Joel_A, in reality I need a lot of help myself


But I also want you to realize that people like those nuts from Westboro Church or whatever it's called that hold up terrible signs may not be Christians at all! 


When you look at fallible human beings that are followers of Christ (or claim to be), keep in mind that none of us compares to Him.  He is Holy and although true Christians are forgiven sinners, we still live in our fleshly bodies and struggle w/stuff all the time.  Sometimes we say and do things that make people want to reject our God.  Studying Him is better than studying us!

[Butterbean]

I'm definitely not like STella...she's much prettier and much nicer than I am..., but I definitely agree with her post!

Haha!  I've got this Nice Stella ruse going here....good thing there isn't audio broadcasting from my car when people drive slowly in the left lane

[MCWAY]

the mother has to make that choice, no one else. not you, not him.
you on the other hand, will kill a child in your god's name.
how are you any different from the terrorists that flew the planes through the wtc towers? they were all doing it in their god's name.

So, killing of babies is kosher, as long as it's NOT in God's name and the mother is the one who does it? AAAHHHHHHH I see now!

As for your silly question,

1) I don't hate a group of people, due to their bloodline, their being Westerners, or worshipping a different deity.
2) Nobody has been assaulting me or my family for over 300 years.
3) As a result of 2, I don't have to make the decision to destroy my enemies (every man, woman, and child) or face extermination myself.

So, if you're done with the bleating, I, like STella, will get this thread back on track, regarding how a Christian should respond to homosexuality.

[Joel_A]

So, killing of babies is kosher, as long as it's NOT in God's name and the mother is the one who does it? AAAHHHHHHH I see now!

it's none of your business.

As for your silly question,

1) I don't hate a group of people, due to their bloodline, their being Westerners, or worshipping a different deity.
2) Nobody has been assaulting me or my family for over 300 years.
3) As a result of 2, I don't have to make the decision to destroy my enemies (every man, woman, and child) or face extermination myself.

So, if you're done with the bleating, I, like STella, will get this thread back on track, regarding how a Christian should respond to homosexuality.

you will kill a person in your god's name. you are NOT like STella at all.

[MCWAY]

it's none of your business.

The issue isn't whose business it is. The issue is your blowing as gasket about my statement, yet having no problem with a baby being dismembered, simply because Mama did it, in the name of "choice", instead of God.

you will kill a person in your god's name. you are NOT like STella at all.

And, you will kill a person in the name of "choice". This may come as a shock to you, but the child ain't any less dead, because of it.

[Joel_A]

The issue isn't whose business it is. The issue is your blowing as gasket about my statement, yet having no problem with a baby being dismembered, simply because Mama did it, in the name of "choice", instead of God.

And, you will kill a person in the name of "choice". This may come as a shock to you, but the child ain't any less dead, because of it.

see, if you've been reading this thread, you would know by now that i am AGAINST abortion, but that is my reservation. I choose not to get into their personal business.


I'm done with you. It's not fun anymore.

[Dos Equis]

Beach, is the reason she is so upset because she doesn't know if he is a believer or not?  Even believers struggle with issues the bible states are sinful.   

She cannot force him to change his behavior or "worry" it into changing.  Maybe tell her to give this whole issue to God, maybe that can help her to stop worrying about it.   

Stella I think her anguish is pretty complex.  She believes in God, but isn't a practicing Christian.  Her son had a hard time growing up.  His father died when her son was very young.  Her son really struggled with his sexuality.  She took him to therapy and received conflicting advice.  This was almost 30 years ago.  She was/is hurt by how difficult it was for her son to grow up in the environment he did, never really being fully accepted by his family, society, etc.  That’s the source of most of her pain.  He now lives in San Francisco.   

I think she really believes that her son's homosexuality is genetic.  She isn't trying to change his behavior.  I'm not sure wants to change it.  She is actually sort of a gay rights activist because of him. 

Sorry I wasn't really clear in my first post.  She's not trying to change him and I'm not trying to change her opinion.  My struggle was with how I discuss the Christian point of view with someone like her.  Honestly, I don't want to.  Didn't feel like it was my place to do so, even though she knows what I think about the lifestyle, that I'm a Christian, etc.

When I had a Christian friend talk to me about cheating on his wife, I talked to him about the Proverb that says a person who commits adultery will get a "wound" and "dishonor," and highlight how many men get caught, even if it takes years (e.g., Clinton, Cosby, Edwards, Dr. J., etc.).  When I talked to my daughter the other day about some other kid trying to hit his father, we discussed what the Bible has to say about honoring your parents.  When I talk to (some) kids about doing the right thing, I'll mention the Proverb that essentially says "what goes around, comes around." 

But talking to a mother like this about her gay son?  I just couldn't really mention what the Bible says about homosexuality.  This issue is different.

Sorry to ramble . . . .         

[Dos Equis]

Your response is to be her friend, to pray with (and for) her and her son. Above all, remind her of what you just said. Contrary to what some folk may think, loving her son DOES NOT require her acceptance of his homosexual behavior. As for "preference-is-genetic thing, you can point her to groups like Exodus International and let her hear from people, who once thought the same thing, but have left the homosexual lifestyle and are living in happy and healthy heterosexual relationships.

Nearly everyone who has done this has had one basic thing in common: They have all interacted with Christian friends, who loved and cared for them, but DID NOT compromise their standards about homosexuality being wrong.

Take this testimony for example (although, it's not from Exodus Int'l):



FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. (BP)--My heart pounded as the Sunday School teacher asked us to break into small groups and discuss how we might reach the homosexual community for Christ.

I often had wondered if everyone knew my secret. Now I would find out. In my group of four, Rachel spoke first: "I don't have any compassion for homosexuals."

My heart sank.

Mark chimed in, "I don't either, and I think AIDS is God's judgment against homosexuals."

These two seemed so smug, so arrogant. Anger burned inside me, and I vowed not to speak. But my friend, Robert, who knew I had been a homosexual, spoke next: "Christine, what do you think?" I shot him a look that could have killed. Then I took a deep breath and told Rachel and Mark my secret. The looks on their faces told me that they were sorry and felt embarrassed. What they didn't understand was that I, like many other homosexuals, didn't choose to have these feelings. I had grown up in a home where women were either objects of a man's lust or victims of his abuse…….. (Her father beat on her mother and Christine was molested by a male cousin, when she was as a pre/early teen).

For 18 months, I played on the women's softball team for Idlewild Baptist Church in Tampa, Fla (She emulated her older brother's love for athletics and shortened her name to "Chris", intentionally wishing to be recognized as a boy). During that time, I was drawn by the love my teammates had for one another and for me. It seemed so pure and so right. They knew I was different because of my foul language and unsportsmanlike conduct, but they never treated me like an outsider. Their attitude made me want what they had -- a relationship with Christ. I later found out that they were regularly praying for me. One teammate, Kelly, knew that I was a lesbian, but she never preached to me. She just cared for me and prayed for me. I became interested in spiritual things and asked Kelly to help me study the Bible. She agreed, and we met weekly to study the book of John.

One Sunday night in October, 1989, Kelly led me in the prayer of salvation as I knelt beside my bed in my dorm room. When I stood up, I knew that deep down something had changed. I knew that I wanted God more than my homosexuality. But becoming a Christian was only the beginning of my journey. It didn't instantly resolve my homosexual feelings. I broke up with my partner, but I continued to struggle with unwanted same-sex attractions.

Thankfully, I found out about a ministry that helps people overcome their homosexuality, and I began to attend a local support group. There, I discovered the root causes of my homosexual desires, including sexual abuse, gender confusion, a breakdown in the relationship with my same-sex parent, an abusive father and peer rejection.

I met strong, godly women in church who helped me to see that being feminine didn't mean being weak. I met men who treated me with dignity and respect. This freed me to embrace my gender and to stop rejecting God's design. I even started using my full name, Christine, because I no longer wanted to hide being a girl. My ideas about men and women were changed. I learned that being female is not a liability. And I began to identify outwardly with women, experimenting with wearing makeup and different clothes and using purses. I became different from the inside out.

Others noticed my progress and encouraged me. I'll never forget when Robert approached me in church and said, smiling, "Christine, this is the first time you don't look like a boy in a dress." Though his statement hadn't come out right, I knew that he had meant well, and it let me know I was making progress. The key to my healing was developing healthy same-sex friendships. As I did this, my sexual attractions for women naturally diminished because I found what I was looking for all along -- real love and connections with others.

With God's help and the support of caring people, I now walk in freedom from lesbianism. I know that a changed life is possible because I am a changed person.



www.bpnews.net/BPFirstPerson.asp?ID=28789

Good advice.  Thanks McWay. 

[Dos Equis]

Beach Bum, STella, MCWAY, please correct me if I'm wrong.

The Bible does not say that being attracted to somebody of the same gender is a sin.  It only says that having sex with somebody of the same gender is a sin. 

If you applied Christ's teachings on adultery to this, then you could stretch this to saying that according to the Bible, looking at somebody of the same gender with lust is a sin in your heart.

If this is true, then it does not matter whether or not being attracted to somebody of the same gender is genetic.  It is not a sin.  It is a sin only if you look at somebody of the same gender with lust or if you have sex with somebody of the same gender.

You might ask why would God create people with a desire for somebody of the same gender when it is forbidden for them to have sex with somebody of the same gender? 

To that I would say that God created me with a desire to lust after and to have sex with most of the hot women I see, married or single.  But God forbids me to look at them with lust or to have sex with them.  Even though I have this desire to have sex with them, and even though I may have the opportunity to do so, I don't.  I don't because I call myself a Christian and I claim to believe that the Bible is the Word of God and I want to obey it, and because the Holy Spirit gives me both the desire and the power to obey, though I also have the choice to disobey.

You might say that at least I'm allowed by God to marry the woman I choose to and to have sex with her after I marry her, while homosexuals are not allowed by God to marry who they want to marry, another homosexual. 

To that I would say that married heterosexual couples don't have sex anyway...just kidding.  But seriously, most married men I know, and many women too, are not happy with their sex life.  Some of them wish they can divorce so that they can have all the casual sex they want to, but most of them are moral people and only contemplate it, but would never do that. 

So I'd say heterosexual Christians face similar, if not the same struggles and temptations as Christians who may be attracted to people of the same gender.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on homosexuality.  It's not much different than adultery, fornication, etc.

Please discuss.  I'd really like to know other Christians opinions on what I just wrote.  Thank you!

I agree with your comments loco.  That's why I don't demonize homosexuals.  Even though the Bible is clear on homosexuality, I don't think that gives us (Christians) the right to disrespect them, hate them, etc.  I don't think a practicing homosexual is any less in God's eyes than me. 

But regarding acting on impulses, desires, etc., you've summed up what I heard Falwell say several years ago.  I was not a fan or follower of his, but I once heard him say that we are all tempted in areas in which we are weak and some of us are more prone to engage in certain types of behavior than others, including homosexual behavior.  It's acting on those temptations that becomes a problem from a Christian standpoint, which I think is what you were saying.     

[Dos Equis]

I've pretty much held the view of the act being the stated sin and not the condition of being attracted to the same sex.  But I never really thought about the lusting part of it which, as you say, is stated as being like adultery/sin in the heart.

One thing I think is so misleading and hate to see is when people focus on "so and so is homosexual so he/she is going to hell" or "you Christians think all homosexuals are going to hell."
 
IMO, neither of those are exclusively true and here is why.....I believe there are people that struggle w/homosexuality that may truly have accepted Christ as Savior.  I also believe that largely, a person lusts after another or engages in homosexual behavior long after they have knowingly committed other sins.

I hate how homosexuals are made to feel like the plague by people that don't understand the bible which states we are all lost w/o Christ as Savior. 

God loves homosexuals just as He loves heteros.  Thankfully Christ has made a way for us all to go to heaven

lol.  I just read this after posting my comments.  We agree.   

[MCWAY]

I agree with your comments loco.  That's why I don't demonize homosexuals.  Even though the Bible is clear on homosexuality, I don't think that gives us (Christians) the right to disrespect them, hate them, etc.  I don't think a practicing homosexual is any less in God's eyes than me. 

But regarding acting on impulses, desires, etc., you've summed up what I heard Falwell say several years ago.  I was not a fan or follower of his, but I once heard him say that we are all tempted in areas in which we are weak and some of us are more prone to engage in certain types of behavior than others, including homosexual behavior.  It's acting on those temptations that becomes a problem from a Christian standpoint, which I think is what you were saying.     

Agreed!! The problem, however, is that certain folks think that if you don't condone or accept their homosexual lifestyle, you are hating them. You've seen this time and time again, when it comes to states passing marriage amendments.

[Butterbean]

Stella I think her anguish is pretty complex.  She believes in God, but isn't a practicing Christian.  Her son had a hard time growing up.  His father died when her son was very young.  Her son really struggled with his sexuality.  She took him to therapy and received conflicting advice.  This was almost 30 years ago.  She was/is hurt by how difficult it was for her son to grow up in the environment he did, never really being fully accepted by his family, society, etc.  That’s the source of most of her pain.  He now lives in San Francisco.   

I think she really believes that her son's homosexuality is genetic.  She isn't trying to change his behavior.  I'm not sure wants to change it.  She is actually sort of a gay rights activist because of him. 

Sorry I wasn't really clear in my first post.  She's not trying to change him and I'm not trying to change her opinion.  My struggle was with how I discuss the Christian point of view with someone like her.  Honestly, I don't want to.  Didn't feel like it was my place to do so, even though she knows what I think about the lifestyle, that I'm a Christian, etc.

When I had a Christian friend talk to me about cheating on his wife, I talked to him about the Proverb that says a person who commits adultery will get a "wound" and "dishonor," and highlight how many men get caught, even if it takes years (e.g., Clinton, Cosby, Edwards, Dr. J., etc.).  When I talked to my daughter the other day about some other kid trying to hit his father, we discussed what the Bible has to say about honoring your parents.  When I talk to (some) kids about doing the right thing, I'll mention the Proverb that essentially says "what goes around, comes around." 

But talking to a mother like this about her gay son?  I just couldn't really mention what the Bible says about homosexuality.  This issue is different.

Sorry to ramble . . . .         

You didn't ramble! 

Beach, sometimes women just want to be able to talk to their friend and have them listen.  Maybe that's what's happening here, I don't know? 

[MCWAY]

You didn't ramble! 

Beach, sometimes women just want to be able to talk to their friend and have them listen.  Maybe that's what's happening here, I don't know? 

And, if that what she needs, then you continue to be that friend for her, Bum. Continue to pray with her and for her family. Your friend will really appreaciate that, I'm sure.

[Dos Equis]

Thanks Stella and McWay.  I think you've given me the right answer:  listen, be a friend, and pray for her. 

[Straw Man]

Why are Christians so focused on this one single action that they consider sinful?

Why does this get so much attention when hundres of other sins which can objectively be seen as a choice get ignore.  Where's the long threads about premarital sex, adultery, lying or even making graven images.  If God cares so much about homosexuality why didn't he make it one of the ten commandments.

Where are the ten page threads about people who CHOOSE to bear false witness?

[Dos Equis]

Why do atheists constantly obsess over things they don't believe in?   

[MCWAY]

Why are Christians so focused on this one single action that they consider sinful?

Why does this get so much attention when hundres of other sins which can objectively be seen as a choice get ignore.  Where's the long threads about premarital sex, adultery, lying or even making graven images.  If God cares so much about homosexuality why didn't he make it one of the ten commandments.

You might want to check #7, "Thou shalt not commit adultery" That covers a host of sexual sins, INCLUDING HOMOSEXUALITY.

Where are the ten page threads about people who CHOOSE to bear false witness?

We have covered those issues, Straw. Part of the reason that these threads are 10 pages long is because folks like you keep getting all bent out of shape, trying to make some rationale as to homosexuality being anything but sinful.

Why do atheists constantly obsess over things they don't believe in?  

The mind boggles at that one.

[Straw Man]

You might want to check #7, "Thou shalt not commit adultery" That covers a host of sexual sins, INCLUDING HOMOSEXUALITY.

really?

ok. maybe i just don't remember all the threads about lying and adultery and what the appropriate Christian response should be to those sins of choice

We have covered those issues, Straw. Part of the reason that these threads are 10 pages long is because folks like you keep getting all bent out of shape, trying to make some rationale as to homosexuality being anything but sinful.
The mind boggles at that one.

I'm not arguing that you shouldn't belive it's sin.

I'm arguing that your belief are irrelevent in secular society. 

We allow you to exist and express your belief just like we allow all other religions to express their beliefs.

We, as a society, are perfectly within our rights to point out the hypocrisy and you are free to try to justify it.

[Joel_A]

I guess Christianity is the right religion? wow.



"We are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further."

-Richard Dawkins

[MCWAY]

I guess Christianity is the right religion? wow.



"We are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further."

-Richard Dawkins

In how many deities must you believe not to be an atheist? (Hint: It's the same as the number of kids you need to be a parent    ).