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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: BRUCE on February 05, 2007, 05:22:50 PM
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Apologies for the monstrous document, no, I haven't had a chance to peruse over it yet - but I invite you all to do so.
http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2002_cr/s092002.html (http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2002_cr/s092002.html)
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This is going to take a while to read but good job at least posting something. I was getting worried with all your dodging. Let's see if this holds up to what you said it would.
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This is going to take a while to read but good job at least posting something. I was getting worried with all your dodging. Let's see if this holds up to what you said it would.
Please, I told you I would get you (more) evidence, and I did. I look forward to your response.
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I don't know if this has been posted before, if it has I apologize.
This quote is taken from Senator Robert Byrd from September 19, 2002 in an exchange with Secretary Rumsfeld.
Here is the link. http://hnn.us/articles/1283.html (http://hnn.us/articles/1283.html)
I asked Secretary Rumsfeld:
Mr. Secretary, to your knowledge, did the United States help Iraq to acquire the building blocks of biological weapons during the Iran-Iraq war? Are we in fact now facing the possibility of reaping what we have sewn?
The Secretary quickly and flatly denied any knowledge but said he would review Pentagon records. I suggest that the administration speed up that review. My concerns and the concerns of others have grown. A letter from the Centers For Disease Control and Prevention, which I shall submit for the Record, shows very clearly that the United States is, in fact, preparing to reap what it has sewn. A letter written in 1995 by former CDC Director David Satcher to former Senator Donald W. Riegle, Jr., points out that the U.S. Government provided nearly two dozen viral and bacterial samples to Iraqi scientists in 1985--samples that included the plague, botulism, and anthrax, among other deadly diseases. According to the letter from Dr. Satcher to former Senator Donald Riegle, many of the materials were hand carried by an Iraqi scientist to Iraq after he had spent 3 months training in the CDC laboratory. The Armed Services Committee is requesting information from the Departments of Commerce, State, and Defense on the history of the United States, providing the building blocks for weapons of mass destruction to Iraq. I recommend that the Department of Health and Human Services also be included in that request. The American people do not need obfuscation and denial. The American people need the truth. The American people need to know whether the United States is in large part responsible for the very Iraqi weapons of mass destruction which the administration now seeks to destroy. We may very well have created the monster that we seek to eliminate. The Senate deserves to know the whole story. The American people deserve answers to the whole story.
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I don't know if this has been posted before, if it has I apologize.
This quote is taken from Senator Robert Byrd from September 19, 2002 in an exchange with Secretary Rumsfeld.
Here is the link. http://hnn.us/articles/1283.html (http://hnn.us/articles/1283.html)
I asked Secretary Rumsfeld:
Mr. Secretary, to your knowledge, did the United States help Iraq to acquire the building blocks of biological weapons during the Iran-Iraq war? Are we in fact now facing the possibility of reaping what we have sewn?
The Secretary quickly and flatly denied any knowledge but said he would review Pentagon records. I suggest that the administration speed up that review. My concerns and the concerns of others have grown. A letter from the Centers For Disease Control and Prevention, which I shall submit for the Record, shows very clearly that the United States is, in fact, preparing to reap what it has sewn. A letter written in 1995 by former CDC Director David Satcher to former Senator Donald W. Riegle, Jr., points out that the U.S. Government provided nearly two dozen viral and bacterial samples to Iraqi scientists in 1985--samples that included the plague, botulism, and anthrax, among other deadly diseases. According to the letter from Dr. Satcher to former Senator Donald Riegle, many of the materials were hand carried by an Iraqi scientist to Iraq after he had spent 3 months training in the CDC laboratory. The Armed Services Committee is requesting information from the Departments of Commerce, State, and Defense on the history of the United States, providing the building blocks for weapons of mass destruction to Iraq. I recommend that the Department of Health and Human Services also be included in that request. The American people do not need obfuscation and denial. The American people need the truth. The American people need to know whether the United States is in large part responsible for the very Iraqi weapons of mass destruction which the administration now seeks to destroy. We may very well have created the monster that we seek to eliminate. The Senate deserves to know the whole story. The American people deserve answers to the whole story.
It has, in my other thread. It should be pointed out to whom, and why, these samples were given. Keep reading for the answers.
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It has, in my other thread. It should be pointed out to whom, and why, these samples were given. Keep reading for the answers.
SO you don't deny the following happened:
"A letter written in 1995 by former CDC Director David Satcher to former Senator Donald W. Riegle, Jr., points out that the U.S. Government provided nearly two dozen viral and bacterial samples to Iraqi scientists in 1985--samples that included the plague, botulism, and anthrax, among other deadly diseases. According to the letter from Dr. Satcher to former Senator Donald Riegle, many of the materials were hand carried by an Iraqi scientist to Iraq after he had spent 3 months training in the CDC laboratory. "
You just question the *intent* of the US in giving these diseases to Saddam?
By 1985, he had already committed some serious atrocities. And they were the first choice of the US govt, to deliver these deadly strains?
Jeez, kinda naive of us. We could have given them to any of the 300 nations on earth. We chose to trust diseases to a murdereour dictator at war.
Do you believe this, Bruce?
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Where in the document does it specifically link the weapons used by Saddam on the Kurds?
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Where in the document does it specifically link the weapons used by Saddam on the Kurds?
What in the world was Reagan's admin doing giving ANY KIND OF CHEMICAL WEAPON to saddam?
Don't feed us the bullshit about "but... medical reasons!" or "We don't know it was the same gas that killed thousands".
What the hell was Reagan/Rumsfeld doing giving any chem weapons to saddam? Hell, he was at war with Iran. And the day he entered office, he had publicly executed hudreds of potential enemies on national TV to make his point that dissension would not be tolerated.
Reagan gave him WMD anyway. Can anyone please defend this action? thanks!
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What in the world was Reagan's admin doing giving ANY KIND OF CHEMICAL WEAPON to saddam?
Don't feed us the bullshit about "but... medical reasons!" or "We don't know it was the same gas that killed thousands".
What the hell was Reagan/Rumsfeld doing giving any chem weapons to saddam? Hell, he was at war with Iran. And the day he entered office, he had publicly executed hudreds of potential enemies on national TV to make his point that dissension would not be tolerated.
Reagan gave him WMD anyway. Can anyone please defend this action? thanks!
you answered your own question.
i highlighted in bold for your convenience.
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you answered your own question.
i highlighted in bold for your convenience.
SO we gave Saddam WMD to fight Iran?
Wait, I think Bruce told us we gave them WMD for "medical research".
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SO we gave Saddam WMD to fight Iran?
Wait, I think Bruce told us we gave them WMD for "medical research".
Oops.
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military and Bruce better work this one out ;)
Either we armed a killer to gas his own people... or we were insanely irresponsible enough to arm him given his history.
Reagan was either evil (facilitating mass murder), or insanely stupid (giving a proven tyrant killer a great number of WMD while at war so he could do medical research?)
Which was it, guys? Why did Reagan share WMD with a proven evil guy?
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when the Aiatola "took over" Iran, there was a quest to spread Islamic radicals through the region. And what would happen if they took over, 240 here's your favorite word, the oil trade?
Reagan saw a way to control it without actually using our military.
And at the time, yes we helped saddam defeat them.
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when the Aiatola "took over" Iran, there was a quest to spread Islamic radicals through the region. And what would happen if they took over, 240 here's your favorite word, the oil trade?
Reagan saw a way to control it without actually using our military.
And at the time, yes we helped saddam defeat them.
This contradicts what Bruce said - that we only gave them WMD for medical research.
I'm fine with the oil trade.
But does Reagan hold any accountability for selling WMD on the world market to a tyrant at war? The US would prompty nuke the shit out of Iran or NKorea if they tried that today ;)
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we did bomb iran a few times after they invaded and try to destroy some oil fields.
that was about the extent of our involvement
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when the Aiatola "took over" Iran, there was a quest to spread Islamic radicals through the region. And what would happen if they took over, 240 here's your favorite word, the oil trade?
Reagan saw a way to control it without actually using our military.
And at the time, yes we helped saddam defeat them.
Well, there it is. An admission from a conservative that we supplied Hussein with chemical weapons to use against other human beings, not for medical research.
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This contradicts what Bruce said - that we only gave them WMD for medical research.
I'm fine with the oil trade.
But does Reagan hold any accountability for selling WMD on the world market to a tyrant at war? The US would prompty nuke the shit out of Iran or NKorea if they tried that today ;)
hindsight is 20/20 bro. you can't use what you know now against what has happened 25 years ago. not in the politcal world anyway.
times have changed.
do you blame clinton for selling N. korea nuclear technology??
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Where in the document does it specifically link the weapons used by Saddam on the Kurds?
Bump? The issue is whether we, knowingly or unknowingly, provided WMDs to Saddam that he then used on the Kurds.
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hindsight is 20/20 bro. you can't use what you know now against what has happened 25 years ago. not in the politcal world anyway.
times have changed.
do you blame clinton for selling N. korea nuclear technology??
If clinton did it, yes.
I was under the believe the Rumsfeld did this in 1999 in the pvt sector. Is this wrong?
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Reagan was either evil (facilitating mass murder), or insanely stupid (giving a proven tyrant killer a great number of WMD while at war so he could do medical research?)
W. provides further proof that the two are not mutually exclusive.
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Either we armed a killer to gas his own people... or we were insanely irresponsible enough to arm him given his history.
Reagan was either evil (facilitating mass murder), or insanely stupid (giving a proven tyrant killer a great number of WMD while at war so he could do medical research?)
bruce, can you explain this one?
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bruce, can you explain this one?
To BRUCE and his ilk, when the Supreme Leader says someone is Bad, it justifies any action against them - with any moral or sane considerations of other consequences not merely suspended, but labeled treasonous to even discuss.
Saves a lot of wear-and-tear on the old brainpan that way.
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bruce, can you explain this one?
To BRUCE and his ilk, when the Supreme Leader says someone is Bad, it justifies any action against them - with any moral or sane considerations of other consequences not merely suspended, but labeled treasonous to even discuss.
Saves a lot of wear-and-tear on the old brainpan that way.
Lloyd Christmas and Harry Dunn
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Lloyd Christmas and Harry Dunn
lol! Clever. I had to look that up. :) (Dumb and Dumber)
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mighty,
the irony is that you're calling me dumb. Where are you and where I am today?
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mighty,
the irony is that you're calling me dumb. Where are you and where I am today?
Sounds like John Kerry comments. Are you saying he is dumb because he's in the military and/or at war?
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Nope. I'm asking him to evaluate where he is and where I am today.
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Sounds like John Kerry comments. Are you saying he is dumb because he's in the military and/or at war?
Kinda sad that you would infer that though. I hope you don't have that opinion. Our military is composed of the finest and bravest. They just don't always know much about politics they aren't spoonfed by the White House.
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Kinda sad that you would infer that though. I hope you don't have that opinion. Our military is composed of the finest and bravest. They just don't always know much about politics they aren't spoonfed by the White House.
Reasonable assumption on my part. Your comments clearly sounded like a slap in the face to a man in the military who is at war. But that's why I asked for a clarification.
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SO you don't deny the following happened:
"A letter written in 1995 by former CDC Director David Satcher to former Senator Donald W. Riegle, Jr., points out that the U.S. Government provided nearly two dozen viral and bacterial samples to Iraqi scientists in 1985--samples that included the plague, botulism, and anthrax, among other deadly diseases. According to the letter from Dr. Satcher to former Senator Donald Riegle, many of the materials were hand carried by an Iraqi scientist to Iraq after he had spent 3 months training in the CDC laboratory. "
You just question the *intent* of the US in giving these diseases to Saddam?
By 1985, he had already committed some serious atrocities. And they were the first choice of the US govt, to deliver these deadly strains?
Jeez, kinda naive of us. We could have given them to any of the 300 nations on earth. We chose to trust diseases to a murdereour dictator at war.
Do you believe this, Bruce?
What in the world was Reagan's admin doing giving ANY KIND OF CHEMICAL WEAPON to saddam?
Don't feed us the bullshit about "but... medical reasons!" or "We don't know it was the same gas that killed thousands".
What the hell was Reagan/Rumsfeld doing giving any chem weapons to saddam? Hell, he was at war with Iran. And the day he entered office, he had publicly executed hudreds of potential enemies on national TV to make his point that dissension would not be tolerated.
Reagan gave him WMD anyway. Can anyone please defend this action? thanks!
Your foolishness precedes you. Where in this document does it prove the US armed Saddam with chemical weapons? Where is the mustard gas you allege?
As for the biological agents, let's revisit what I have posted before on this issue:
The truth to this popular lie? As a US Senate inquiry found, America's Centers for Disease Control and the non-profit American Type Culture Collection did send Iraq biological materials in the 1980s, thinking they would be used there as they were in other countries - to develop treatments for animal and human diseases.
These were sent not to "military laboratories", but mostly to universities and health officials, who secretly passed on some to scientists working on Iraq's WMD. You know, on the weapons this same film also claims "never" existed.
Have you read this yet, Rob? Do you understand that concept? The Americans were proven to have acted responsibly, and to some extent, naively. Keep in mind Saddam stole these biological agents from the scientist they were given to (with the intention of actually saving lives). This is not the same as deliberately arming a madman to fight Iranians, or indeed, murder his own people.
You have absolutely no proof the US gave Saddam mustard gas, or for that matter, any other chemical weapon nor WMD. This, as in Ribonucleic's case, has been your argument from day one.
I implore others reading this to also research The UN's and The Stockholm International Peace Research Institute's findings on this matter.
I find it intriguing we now have Rob admitting Saddam had WMD, and yet rejects this as a purpose for invading Iraq in the first place. I assume, Rob, you have some evidence suggesting you knew beforehand (unlike the rest of the world) that this was the case.
Also laughable is that we now find you going for the proverbial jugular with Saddam now, labelling him (correctly, I might add, even if spelled wrong) as a 'murdereour (sic) dictator'. All, it seems, it takes for you to change your mind on a person like Saddam (who you have written off here before as someone who shouldn't be pursued by the US) is how you can skew the facts to make the US seem evil.
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sadaam had WMD in the 1980s.
He didn't have them in 2002.
Was Reagan irresponsible - or evil - in believing that saddam wouldn't visit IRAQI universities and get ahold of WMD we delivered to them for research?
Seriously, think about that. Saddam is an evil dude. He killed many and was at war. We delivered strains of deadly diseases and other weaponizable agents to his universities.
Did no one at the Reagan white house say "um, ya think saddam might use any of these very deadly things? Or does he just value eduation too much"?
It's either facilitation to commit mass murder with WMD, or incredible irresponsibility.
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It's either facilitation to commit mass murder with WMD, or incredible irresponsibility.
Given his training and material support for the Salvadoran death squads, my vote is for "facilitation to commit mass murder".
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sadaam had WMD in the 1980s.
He didn't have them in 2002.
Was Reagan irresponsible - or evil - in believing that saddam wouldn't visit IRAQI universities and get ahold of WMD we delivered to them for research?
Seriously, think about that. Saddam is an evil dude. He killed many and was at war. We delivered strains of deadly diseases and other weaponizable agents to his universities.
Did no one at the Reagan white house say "um, ya think saddam might use any of these very deadly things? Or does he just value eduation too much"?
It's either facilitation to commit mass murder with WMD, or incredible irresponsibility.
Okay, I'll accept this as some sort of admission that we, in fact, did not arm Saddam with chemical weapons (as you have alleged).
I do agree it was naive to hand over biological agents to Iraqi universities, but the US didn't create these weapons, and they didn't use them to kill anyone.
Your beef lies with Saddam, as I suspected.
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BRUCE, your analysis looks great on paper. But everyone knew what an evil guy Saddam was! And they send deadly strains to his universities to be studied? To me, the belief that "we thought they would use them for good, not evil" is incredibly naive. Beyond naive. Outright gullible. Saddam executes hundreds on the week of his inauguration with his own hand for the world to see, and Reagan sends his schools the deadliest strains known to man "to study"? The very intel his nation would gain, alone, is irresponsible. But sending the strains? And the fact Rumsfeld was photographed taking a pic with him the week of the gassing. What was that?
Seriously, there's nothing wrong with saying Reagan messed up.
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I do agree it was naive to hand over biological agents to Iraqi universities, but the US didn't create these weapons, and they didn't use them to kill anyone.
NAIVE?
Are you shittin' us?
What did they THINK would happen?
Seriously, what if N. Korea decided to give it's nuke secrets to Iranian and Syrian "universities" for energy research. Would you consider Kim Jung Il to be "naive", and ignore it as you're ignoring Reagan's act?
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NAIVE?
Are you shittin' us?
What did they THINK would happen?
Seriously, what if N. Korea decided to give it's nuke secrets to Iranian and Syrian "universities" for energy research. Would you consider Kim Jung Il to be "naive", and ignore it as you're ignoring Reagan's act?
So is it 'naive', or just a plain lie, when you tell us that we sent Saddam mustard gas?
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So is it 'naive', or just a plain lie, when you tell us that we sent Saddam mustard gas?
We did send it to him.
It arrived at his universities.
it was taken to his military bases.
it was used to kill thousands.
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So is it 'naive', or just a plain lie, when you tell us that we sent Saddam mustard gas?
Don't ask for proof. . . . .
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We did send it to him.
It arrived at his universities.
it was taken to his military bases.
it was used to kill thousands.
This is total garbage. Provide me with evidence, or admit this is a lie.
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This is total garbage. Provide me with evidence, or admit this is a lie.
Look up.
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Look up.
To see your complete lack of evidence?
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It has, in my other thread. It should be pointed out to whom, and why, these samples were given. Keep reading for the answers.
So you honestly believe that we gave them weapons for research purposes only? Whatever our intentions, Saddam murdered his people with chemical weapons that we gave him. A fact like this isn't directly written in stone, but it's there for everyone to see. We gave him weapons hoping he'd use them to keep Iran in line and he did just that, along with murdering his own people.
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So you honestly believe that we gave them weapons for research purposes only? Whatever our intentions, Saddam murdered his people with chemical weapons that we gave him. A fact like this isn't directly written in stone, but it's there for everyone to see. We gave him weapons hoping he'd use them to keep Iran in line and he did just that, along with murdering his own people.
We didn't give anyone weapons, that's not only my contention, it's the contention of every piece of evidence you have seen. Try and understand that.
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We didn't give anyone weapons, that's not only my contention, it's the contention of every piece of evidence you have seen. Try and understand that.
Did we give dangerous chemicals like anthrax to Iraqi schools?
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Did we give dangerous chemicals like anthrax to Iraqi schools?
Anthrax isn't a chemical. It's a bacterium. And the evidence suggets Saddam developed this himself.
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Anthrax isn't a chemical. It's a bacterium. And the evidence suggets Saddam developed this himself.
Rephrased:
What do documents show the US Govt provided to iraqi institutions, knowing well that he was fighting a war with Iran and had declared a dictatorship on day one, killing all his adversaries in a brutal, public manner?
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Rephrased:
What do documents show the US Govt provided to iraqi institutions, knowing well that he was fighting a war with Iran and had declared a dictatorship on day one, killing all his adversaries in a brutal, public manner?
There are plenty of war stricken places on earth the US sends aid to, however naive you and I perceive this incident to be. Either way, the US is proven to have not armed Saddam. They did not send arms, or anything intended to be made into arms. If they wanted Iraq to exert force on its enemies, why did they not send missiles or bombs or chemical weapons? This is trivial, to say the least.
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There are plenty of war stricken places on earth the US sends aid to, however naive you and I perceive this incident to be. Either way, the US is proven to have not armed Saddam. They did not send arms, or anything intended to be made into arms. If they wanted Iraq to exert force on its enemies, why did they not send missiles or bombs or chemical weapons? This is trivial, to say the least.
What bio agents did we send them?
anthrax? botulism? others? I believe bubonic plague was mentioned.
Did we give some or all of these biological agents to iraqi schools during a time of war with their neighbor?
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What bio agents did we send them?
anthrax? botulism? others? I believe bubonic plague was mentioned.
Did we give some or all of these biological agents to iraqi schools during a time of war with their neighbor?
Good question. Read the document I provided and see if you can tell me. I doubt strongly The US sent anything that is already harmful to people, rather, I believe from what I've seen, Saddam developed them from other cultures.
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Good question. Read the document I provided and see if you can tell me. I doubt strongly The US sent anything that is already harmful to people, rather, I believe from what I've seen, Saddam developed them from other cultures.
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Well, it's been a good debate. Thanks for not answering my bolded question.
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Well, it's been a good debate. Thanks for not answering my bolded question.
I thought I had, Rob.