BACK TRAINING

[ripitupbaby]

There are soooo many exercises to work your back, it's hard to nail down which ones are the best.  And it's easy to vary the workouts quite a bit from week to week, which is good to keep your body guessing and your muscles working and growing. 

The key is to switch up your back training all the time in order to really stimulate growth in your back muscles.  Easier said than done. 
I actually could use some recommendations on how to vary my workouts, because like everything else lately, I have fallen into a "comfort zone" with my training and am suffering from a bit of workout inertia. 

For the most part, I structure my back workouts around pull exercises and rows.  I usually alternate between a pull down exercise and a row.  I do four exercises, 3-4 sets each, and sometimes throw in a fifth exercise if I am feeling so inclined.

I usually focus on the upper and middle back, as I save my lower back for leg day (squats and deadlifts).  Occasionally on leg day, I will add a specific lower back exercise if I have the time, but I don't really focus too much time on the lower back on back day, mostly because I don't want my lower back to be sore when leg day rolls around.

I ALWAYS incorporate a wide grip pull down and a low/medium row into my back workout, no matter how I may vary the other exercises.

A typical back workout for me will look something like this:

---warmup with 2 sets of weight-assisted pull ups
---wide grip pull downs - 4 sets
---Mid row (cable) - 3 sets
---Close grip pull down or underhanded pull down - 3 sets
---Seated Low Row (machine) - 3 sets

I LOVE the Nautilus Compound Row machine, so I will almost always finish my workout with 3 sets on this.
Quite often, I will use the cable to do a straight arm pullover sort of like the ribcage pullovers.  I usually superset these with one of the first two exercises.  I can't decide whether or not these really do much for my back, as they feel like they work the crap out of my arms sometimes, particularly the triceps.

Some variations I like:
---Very occasionally (like never lately), I will do wide grip pull-ups instead of pull downs.
---Instead of a mid-row on cables, I will do a bent over barbell row or bent over dumbell rows.  I prefer dumbell rows because you can do one arm at a time and go heavy.

[ripitupbaby]

So here's what I am wondering...

I have pretty good detail in my back, but I am lacking in thickness, particularly in the upper back.  I need wider lats! 
How do I accomplish this during the off-season?  How should I structure my back workout to maximize growth during the off-season?

Is it all about pull-ups?  Is there a big difference btw wide grip and close grip?  Is there a big difference between pull ups and pull downs?

I need a bigger back!   

[The Squadfather]

why no barbell or DB rows?

[ripitupbaby]

why no barbell or DB rows?

I don't do them as often as I prolly should, but sometimes I do them instead of some of the cable rows. 
I tend to fall back on cable rows more. 
I KNOW I should do dumbell rows more than I should.  But I'm not so sure what difference it REALLY makes in terms of growing my back.

[az]

my back changed a lot when I started doing deads.

[The Squadfather]

I don't do them as often as I prolly should, but sometimes I do them instead of some of the cable rows. 
I tend to fall back on cable rows more. 
I KNOW I should do dumbell rows more than I should.  But I'm not so sure what difference it REALLY makes in terms of growing my back.

barbell rows are even better.

[Luv2Hurt]

Man good questions and points ripitup.  So true there a million things to do to mix it up.  Lats being a big muscle can take a lot of abuse and I also do about 16-18 sets for them.  I do think pull ups are one of the best exercises for them also, I like to use a little wider than shoulder width grip for these as I feel it allows more ROM than the really wide grip pull.  Offseason my BW is plenty for these but when lighter I will strap 25-45 lbs on.  Man there is nothing badder than to see a woman slam out some good pull ups, alright there are things badder but its pretty bad ass 

You can vary your training in lots of ways.  Switching the sequence of the same exercises is a good way, lets say one time you start with rows the other start with pulls.  You could do all rows or mostly rows, all pulls, lighter fast paced pumping, hard heavy longer rest sets, less sets, more sets. one arm-two arms,  I usually decide what I'm gonna do as I go and as what equipment is available.

I have said before one of the routines I did for a while when younger was just 6 work sets each of pull ups and BB bent rows.  It was a good routine I thought cause it hit the whole back with the 2 best back exercises IMO. 

Hand position should also be considered.  I always use a thumbless grip (false grip) for back work as it helps get get the biceps out of the exercises some.  a pronated grip will less involve your bis, the neutral grip and the supinated (reverse grip) more so but the are all also good ways to vary your training.

I have and still do train back heavy, but am now trying to still keep it heavy but feel the exercise more.  Have gone up to 315 on these BB rows but the form was not pretty and it felt like my back was gonna shear off at the spine    225 feels good and I can get a good squeeze at the top, so I'm sticking with that weight for a while, to see how it works.  Feels good to hold the pause at the top for a second.  The t-bar is also great.  I like to pull the weight to my navel for most type rows like this.  I like DB rows too and they get you working hard can feel these good if don't go too crazy with the Lbs.

Rip I agree your back looks great!  That rear double bicep you posted was absolutely fantastic.  You look more like a middle weight in that pose, I haven't seen all your poses... yet  but man that is a very good one for you!!  When you reach your goals it will even be more bad ass!!

Lots of people have a hard time feeling their lats working.  For this concentrate, pull with your elbows and pose them babies.  Get that chest up and squeeze those lats.

[ripitupbaby]

Man good questions and points ripitup.  So true there a million things to do to mix it up.  Lats being a big muscle can take a lot of abuse and I also do about 16-18 sets for them.  I do think pull ups are one of the best exercises for them also, I like to use a little wider than shoulder width grip for these as I feel it allows more ROM than the really wide grip pull.  Offseason my BW is plenty for these but when lighter I will strap 25-45 lbs on.  Man there is nothing badder than to see a woman slam out some good pull ups, alright there are things badder but its pretty bad ass 

You can vary your training in lots of ways.  Switching the sequence of the same exercises is a good way, lets say one time you start with rows the other start with pulls.  You could do all rows or mostly rows, all pulls, lighter fast paced pumping, hard heavy longer rest sets, less sets, more sets. one arm-two arms,  I usually decide what I'm gonna do as I go and as what equipment is available.

I have said before one of the routines I did for a while when younger was just 6 work sets each of pull ups and BB bent rows.  It was a good routine I thought cause it hit the whole back with the 2 best back exercises IMO. 

Hand position should also be considered.  I always use a thumbless grip (false grip) for back work as it helps get get the biceps out of the exercises some.  a pronated grip will less involve your bis, the neutral grip and the supinated (reverse grip) more so but the are all also good ways to vary your training.

I have and still do train back heavy, but am now trying to still keep it heavy but feel the exercise more.  Have gone up to 315 on these BB rows but the form was not pretty and it felt like my back was gonna shear off at the spine    225 feels good and I can get a good squeeze at the top, so I'm sticking with that weight for a while, to see how it works.  Feels good to hold the pause at the top for a second.  The t-bar is also great.  I like to pull the weight to my navel for most type rows like this.  I like DB rows too and they get you working hard can feel these good if don't go too crazy with the Lbs.

Rip I agree your back looks great!  That rear double bicep you posted was absolutely fantastic.  You look more like a middle weight in that pose, I haven't seen all your poses... yet  but man that is a very good one for you!!  When you reach your goals it will even be more bad ass!!

Lots of people have a hard time feeling their lats working.  For this concentrate, pull with your elbows and pose them babies.  Get that chest up and squeeze those lats.

Thanks for the info!  I forgot to mention the importance of the grip.  I use a thumbless grip too for the most part, to minimize the bicep work.  Of course, it makes everything tougher, but that's the point!

I am going to work on the pull-ups during the offseason as well.  I think my bodyweight will be more than sufficient IF I can even pull that lol. 
I've heard that I should be pulling bodyweight on the lat pulldowns as well, but it seems to me that the machines are all different in terms of the actual weight being pulled.  I pull 120 and 130 on the pulldown set up at my gym, which is just about bodyweight right now, I think.

I'll have to dig up a decent pic of my back lat spread, as I still feel like I could use a little more thickness. 
My upper back still looks a little figure-girlish to me.   
LUV, In that pic you posted above, I want the part of my back right under my armpits to be wider!!  Is that all about the pull-ups and pull-downs?

[ripitupbaby]

my back changed a lot when I started doing deads.

Bent legged deads for lower back or straight legged deads for hams/glutes (and lower back of course)?  I do straights as part of my leg workout but no deads for my back workout.  Do you think this exercise improved your back overall or just the lower back?

[Luv2Hurt]

Thanks for the info!  I forgot to mention the importance of the grip.  I use a thumbless grip too for the most part, to minimize the bicep work.  Of course, it makes everything tougher, but that's the point!

I am going to work on the pull-ups during the offseason as well.  I think my bodyweight will be more than sufficient IF I can even pull that lol. 
I've heard that I should be pulling bodyweight on the lat pulldowns as well, but it seems to me that the machines are all different in terms of the actual weight being pulled.  I pull 120 and 130 on the pulldown set up at my gym, which is just about bodyweight right now, I think.

I'll have to dig up a decent pic of my back lat spread, as I still feel like I could use a little more thickness. 
My upper back still looks a little figure-girlish to me.   
LUV, In that pic you posted above, I want the part of my back right under my armpits to be wider!!  Is that all about the pull-ups and pull-downs?

Sure some more back width is always good  and it would never hurt.  Well I need to bring my back up too and am not sure I have the answers but yes pull ups and pull downs are the ones they say mainly hit the width.  I usually go a little less on pull downs than BW for pull downs I like to really try and feel them.  On both pull ups and downs I try to get my elbows back a little and pull with the lats as much as I can, trying to keep the shoulders and arms out of it.  Its kind of funny but sometimes people I see will use so much weight on these they are practically laying down on these and using so much lower back I don't see how it could be working to good for them.  The hammer strength pull down machine is pretty good too.  Did you ever try that funky free motion one it is a little different and kind of cool once in a while.

I think a solid routine emphasising the areas you want to improve will get you there where you wanna be.  Your back has good thickness and separation I'm thinking when you can do 10-12 pull ups you will be there.  

Do you use straps?  If not I think you should, you have very good arms these will let you think less about the grip and just holding on and more about contracting and pounding your lats.

Off topic but your traps and delts are awesome as shown in that pic 

[ripitupbaby]

Sure some more back width is always good  and it would never hurt.  Well I need to bring my back up too and am not sure I have the answers but yes pull ups and pull downs are the ones they say mainly hit the width.  I usually go a little less on pull downs than BW for pull downs I like to really try and feel them.  On both pull ups and downs I try to get my elbows back a little and pull with the lats as much as I can, trying to keep the shoulders and arms out of it.  Its kind of funny but sometimes people I see will use so much weight on these they are practically laying down on these and using so much lower back I don't see how it could be working to good for them.  The hammer strength pull down machine is pretty good too.  Did you ever try that funky free motion one it is a little different and kind of cool once in a while.

I think a solid routine emphasising the areas you want to improve will get you there where you wanna be.  Your back has good thickness and separation I'm thinking when you can do 10-12 pull ups you will be there.  

Do you use straps?  If not I think you should, you have very good arms these will let you think less about the grip and just holding on and more about contracting and pounding your lats.

Off topic but your traps and delts are awesome as shown in that pic 

I do like the Hammer Strength machines, but not so much the Free Motion ones. 
The Free Motion ones I have seen are like the one below, right?  I'm not a big fan, but I'm not sure why. 
I should probably do more of them or the Hammer Strength, along with dumbell rows, cuz I am so right-side dominant.

I DO use straps for a lot of my back exercises, mostly because I lose my grip way before I exhaust my back. 
I can get a lot more done with straps for sure. 

I ALWAYS try to remember to keep my chest lifted UP when I do back work, so that I don't end up laying down or swinging my upper body alot, etc. 
When I do pull downs, I try to pretend that there is a string attached from the top of the cable pull down to the middle of my chest, and I don't lean back too far at all. 

10-12 pullups on my own, huh?  Wide grip?  I should be able to do regular pullups pretty easily, but I can add the wide grips to my list for this off-season.
I'll have to dig up a lat spread pic later. 
Your lat spread pic is in another thread, but feel free to add updated ones to this thread as you diet down.   

 

[Bluto]

if i were you i would give chins/pull ups some serious work and make that my first and most important exercise and see what that would do for width for a few months.  you could for example experience with negative-only chins lowering yourself for several seconds.

[Chamorrita]

Chins/pull-ups.  Lots of heavy rows.

[ripitupbaby]

OK, so I am gathering that chinups are a must lol...

Bluto, I sometimes do the negatives on the weight assisted chin up machine, they are awesome!

[Luv2Hurt]

I do like the Hammer Strength machines, but not so much the Free Motion ones. 
The Free Motion ones I have seen are like the one below, right?  I'm not a big fan, but I'm not sure why. 
I should probably do more of them or the Hammer Strength, along with dumbell rows, cuz I am so right-side dominant.

I DO use straps for a lot of my back exercises, mostly because I lose my grip way before I exhaust my back. 
I can get a lot more done with straps for sure. 

I ALWAYS try to remember to keep my chest lifted UP when I do back work, so that I don't end up laying down or swinging my upper body alot, etc. 
When I do pull downs, I try to pretend that there is a string attached from the top of the cable pull down to the middle of my chest, and I don't lean back too far at all. 

10-12 pullups on my own, huh?  Wide grip?  I should be able to do regular pullups pretty easily, but I can add the wide grips to my list for this off-season.
I'll have to dig up a lat spread pic later. 
Your lat spread pic is in another thread, but feel free to add updated ones to this thread as you diet down.   

 

Yeah rip that is the machine  , I only tried it a few times it pulls from an unusual angle that I never felt before    Not sure if I like it either but it is something different.

Yep wide grip chins with palms forward are a must for your routine.

Oh you can be sure there will be more pics 

if i were you i would give chins/pull ups some serious work and make that my first and most important exercise and see what that would do for width for a few months.  you could for example experience with negative-only chins lowering yourself for several seconds.

I think I am gonna try this for a while myself, sounds like a good idea!

[ripitupbaby]

Yeah rip that is the machine  , I only tried it a few times it pulls from an unusual angle that I never felt before    Not sure if I like it either but it is something different.

Yep wide grip chins with palms forward are a must for your routine.

Oh you can be sure there will be more pics 
I think I am gonna try this for a while myself, sounds like a good idea!

Sweet.   Your back looks great lol, your legs are AWESOME.   

OK I owe ya one...

 

[Bluto]

OK, so I am gathering that chinups are a must lol...

Bluto, I sometimes do the negatives on the weight assisted chin up machine, they are awesome!

People generally avoid chinups, that should tell you something 

[Luv2Hurt]

Sweet.   Your back looks great lol, your legs are AWESOME.   

OK I owe ya one...

 

Thanks 

I was flat for that show will be more full for this upcomming one.  Was told I need to get my hands down more near my waist in the front lat spread and I agree.

[Thin Lizzy]

Lots of people have a hard time feeling their lats working. 

The problem is that you can't see your back. So, it's harder to know what exactly is going on.

One thing you can do is read anatomy books and really learn the area. Once you've done this for awhile, you'll be better able to visualize the area and establish a greater mind-muscle link.

[Luv2Hurt]

The problem is that you can't see your back. So, it's harder to know what exactly is going on.

One thing you can do is read anatomy books and really learn the area. Once you've done this for awhile, you'll be better able to visualize the area and establish a greater mind-muscle link.

Great points!  I do like to check out the anatomy books as they will give good information about how the different muscles affect movement, and you can incorporate this into your training.

http://www.humankinetics.com/products/showproduct.cfm?isbn=0736048138

http://books.google.com/books?id=YTdsosIQrv4C&dq=&pg=PP1&ots=mUMHaxaVfx&sig=oJCb6QtBTu0lELG_MBLmOEWZ15s&prev=http://www.google.com/search%3Fhl%3Den%26ie%3DISO-8859-1%26q%3Dweight%2Btraining%2Banatomy%26btnG%3DGoogle%2BSearch&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title

[ripitupbaby]

All very good points.   

I'm gonna hit the chin ups for sure.  Bluto's right, most people avoid them cuz they are hard, which means they work lol.

That anatomy book looks pretty cool, and the mind-muscle link is totally important. 
I was doing a training interview with my bud Blockhead in Chicago, and he asked me to discuss how I incorporate the mind-muscle link during my training.  It totally came out of the blue, I was not expecting that question at all...and I completely froze like a deer in headlights and started cracking up.   

[Deadpool]

if you can do badass, weighted chins...hats off to you

ps nice backs:

[az]

Bent legged deads for lower back or straight legged deads for hams/glutes (and lower back of course)?  I do straights as part of my leg workout but no deads for my back workout.  Do you think this exercise improved your back overall or just the lower back?

bent leg from the floor, gave me some thickness.

[ripitupbaby]

OK luv baby,  ...although after seeing the pics that Meddie posted, I'd prefer for my back to look more like Andrulla's.   

I knew that back thickness would be my biggest challenge during the off-season when i decided to switch from figure to BB, but if I can make as much progress this year as I did last year, then I will be happy.

[az]

(can I borrow your hamstrings?)