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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: El Diablo Blanco on December 27, 2012, 01:22:12 PM
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I've heard many religious people mock the big bang theory because they question that how did nothing turn into something. But then in that same thought, where did God come from?
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I've heard many religious people mock the big bang theory because they question that how did nothing turn into something. But then in that same thought, where did God come from?
http://christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c039.html
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you ask a question that has been asked since eve took a bite from the apple. we will know all answers to everything once we are in heaven... unless your sinful ass goes to hell you still won't know anything.
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you ask a question that has been asked since eve took a bite from the fruit of the forbidden tree, from which she was manipulated by a talking snake, which she made up, because she wanted to blame somebody. The original, "The Devil Made Me Do It." We will know all answers to everything once we are in heaven... unless your sinful ass goes to hell you still won't know anything.
Fixed
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God is another name for your own uncreated eternal nature. Realize this in deep meditation beyond name form and all imagining.
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How could God have come from anywhere (have been created or have an origin) since He is the Creator Himself with no origin?
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Lucifer.
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http://christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c039.html
::)
Great reputable and evidence based site with verifiable sources.
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A spaceship.
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(http://geektyrant.com/storage/post-images-2011/paradiseLostLucifer.jpeg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1311567363625)
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God is another name for your own uncreated eternal nature. Realize this in deep meditation beyond name form and all imagining.
one could say this. God is no "he" or "she", but the spiritual essence of the universe.
It's in man's nature to assign human like qualities and or a sex to things we know very little about. Making something human like, makes the entity more approachable.
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I've heard many religious people mock the big bang theory because they question that how did nothing turn into something. But then in that same thought, where did God come from?
I prescribe to the modern Kalam Cosmological argument. In essense, whatever began to exist has a cause and since the universe began to exist it has a cause which Christians belief is God. God stands outside the concepts of time and space which both had beginnings and those beginnings would necesitate a uncaused cause, an infinite all powerful creator. This is a crude, brief explanation, but this isn't my area of expertise so expounding (on my part) would be comical.
Certainly this position has its objectors, but what positions in theology and philosophy don't LOL?
Modern science claims the big bang was caused by an explosion of highly dense matter that is ever expanding the universe; although, (at this point) science neither knows where the dense matter came from or what triggered the explosion. Physicists are trying to eliminate the need for the original catalyst/cause/singularity and believe that all that is needed is more time in order to discover why the big bang was the big bang. In my humble opinion, more power to them and I hope they do, but I believe that search will inevitably lead them closer and closer to the creator I serve.
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::)
Great reputable and evidence based site with verifiable sources.
My advice to you is to stop screwing about and take the Holy Bible as absolute truth. Personally I've been besieged by evil spirits/devils before and seen concrete answer to prayer.
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He has no beginning, he has always been.
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He has no beginning, he has always been.
Really. So he was just there. no daddy or anything???? When did he appear? Was be born or arrived the day before he built the earth? Was he around for thousands of years then decided to build the earth? What did he build the earth with? Where did those materials come from? How did he create the animals? Did he have a workshop where he developed and colored them?
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I prescribe to the modern Kalam Cosmological argument. In essense, whatever began to exist has a cause and since the universe began to exist it has a cause which Christians belief is God. God stands outside the concepts of time and space which both had beginnings and those beginnings would necesitate a uncaused cause, an infinite all powerful creator. This is a crude, brief explanation, but this isn't my area of expertise so expounding (on my part) would be comical.
Certainly this position has its objectors, but what positions in theology and philosophy don't LOL?
Modern science claims the big bang was caused by an explosion of highly dense matter that is ever expanding the universe; although, (at this point) science neither knows where the dense matter came from or what triggered the explosion. Physicists are trying to eliminate the need for the original catalyst/cause/singularity and believe that all that is needed is more time in order to discover why the big bang was the big bang. In my humble opinion, more power to them and I hope they do, but I believe that search will inevitably lead them closer and closer to the creator I serve.
It was an expansion/inflation, not an explosion. This is a very common misconception. There was no medium for the matter to explode in back in 'those dayserrrr trillionths of a second'.
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some call him god others call him the particles that have always existed and cannot be erased
these particles didnt have to be created they have always been here, the universe never started or begun anything we only witness various stages of things but there is no beginning
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some call him god others call him the particles that have always existed and cannot be erased
these particles didnt have to be created they have always been here, the universe never started or begun anything we only witness various stages of things but there is no beginning
GODDESS = SEE GOD
GOD= DOG
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It was an expansion/inflation, not an explosion. This is a very common misconception. There was no medium for the matter to explode in back in 'those dayserrrr trillionths of a second'.
Should call it the Enormous Expansion.
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Should call it the Enormous Expansion.
The phrase 'The Big Bang' was originally coined to mock the theory, by a religious opponent in fact.
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God came from New Jersey.
HTH.
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What they will tell you is that gOD always existed. These dumb fucks think this is an actual valid answer but it answers nothing. They argue for a first cause/prime mover until that is you apply that line of reasoning to gOD, then they will answer it doesn't matter. Hypocrites and fools.
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What they will tell you is that gOD always existed. These dumb fucks think this is an actual valid answer but it answers nothing. They argue for a first cause/prime mover until that is you apply that line of reasoning to gOD, then they will answer it doesn't matter. Hypocrites and fools.
You're quite the class act.
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You're quite the class act.
It's better than being a fool. I'll leave that to you.
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I've heard many religious people mock the big bang theory because they question that how did nothing turn into something. But then in that same thought, where did God come from?
Both scenario's are mind boggling and both have no rational explanation. So either way whether you go with God or you go with no God you are confronted with something that defies logic, explanation is contrary to the laws of physics.
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What they will tell you is that gOD always existed. These dumb fucks think this is an actual valid answer but it answers nothing. They argue for a first cause/prime mover until that is you apply that line of reasoning to gOD, then they will answer it doesn't matter. Hypocrites and fools.
Thats because man tries to interpret the universe he lives in. What has no explanation available must be filled with superstition and speculation. Thats why scientists start with "why?". Science doesnt have the answer to everything but they don't stop trying to find answers.
People used to assume the earth was flat and this line of thinking went on for centuries until ships circumnavigated the globe proving that theory wrong. Until then people were put to death for daring to suggest that the earth was anything other than flat.
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It's better than being a fool. I'll leave that to you.
I don't understand your random anger. I mean, I know how easy it is to anonymously bash believers online and how completely different the discussion would be if you and I were face to face. That said, why not approach it as such? If believers have wronged you some way we can discuss it....I'd rather represent Christ and other believers with love and respect; although, if you're just here to troll and insult believers I'll know to ignore you completely.
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God was born C section at Bethesda Naval Hospital in 1971.
Do your research, people!
Ever heard of Google?
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God was born C section at Bethesda Naval Hospital in 1971.
Do your research, people!
Ever heard of Google?
This is correct, garebear is an expert in these areas.
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I don't understand your random anger. I mean, I know how easy it is to anonymously bash believers online and how completely different the discussion would be if you and I were face to face. That said, why not approach it as such? If believers have wronged you some way we can discuss it....I'd rather represent Christ and other believers with love and respect; although, if you're just here to troll and insult believers I'll know to ignore you completely.
I made a valid point on how Christians argue that gOd has no first cause when they go out of their way to argue that all things that exist in the universe must have a first cause/prime mover. You decided to comment on my class. Now, you're trying to divert the subject by arguing that my opinions must be stemmed in some kind of personal grievances I have with Christianity, which is untrue. Honestly, I don't give a fuck what kind of night light you need to rely on to make you feel safe in the dark, just don't go around making the claim that it is at all rational.
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I made a valid point on how Christians argue that gOd has no first cause when they go out of their way to argue that all things that exist in the universe must have a first cause/prime mover. You decided to comment on my class. Now, you're trying to divert the subject by arguing that my opinions must be stemmed in some kind of personal grievances I have with Christianity, which is untrue. Honestly, I don't give a fuck what kind of night light you need to rely on to make you feel safe in the dark, just don't go around making the claim that it is at all rational.
I am a Christian and I feel my view is not rational but your view is not either so we are playing on even grounds here but for some strange reason you think that our concept is magical and yours is not, when in fact it is too.
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I made a valid point on how Christians argue that gOd has no first cause when they go out of their way to argue that all things that exist in the universe must have a first cause/prime mover. You decided to comment on my class. Now, you're trying to divert the subject by arguing that my opinions must be stemmed in some kind of personal grievances I have with Christianity, which is untrue. Honestly, I don't give a fuck what kind of night light you need to rely on to make you feel safe in the dark, just don't go around making the claim that it is at all rational.
What they will tell you is that gOD always existed. These dumb fucks think this is an actual valid answer but it answers nothing. They argue for a first cause/prime mover until that is you apply that line of reasoning to gOD, then they will answer it doesn't matter. Hypocrites and fools.
You're right, you said nothing inappropriate and simply addressed the issue at hand. You answered with integrity and respect and kept the insults out of it. Yes, lets you and I have a proper discussion.
::)
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I am a Christian and I feel my view is not rational but your view is not either so we are playing on even grounds here but for some strange reason you think that our concept is magical and your is not, when in fact it is too.
You are incorrect for the simple fact I never advocated anything. YOu assume I am advocating on behalf of big bang but did I ever mention it? I did not.
You're right, you said nothing inappropriate and simply addressed the issue at hand. You answered with integrity and respect and kept the insults out of it.
Apparently you've never been to getbig before. May I suggest you go to the positive board immediately to avoid future butthurt.
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Apparently you've never been to getbig before. May I suggest you go to the positive board immediately to avoid future butthurt.
Yes, you're far to scary for me kiddo LOL.
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Rational doesn't mean correct. It seems means "formulated using reasoning" (and reasoning isn't necessarily correct). Thinking there is probably a creator of some kind may not be accurate but it is rational so long as their is reasoning behind it. For example, I have never witnessed anything perfect or infinite or eternal, yet in my consciousness I have a deep feeling that all of those things exist. Since I don't understand how I could feel that way if they didn't actually exist (I don't understand how I could possibly imagine such concepts without them being possible) and in my own mind this feeling of infinite and eternal perfection makes me think its likely to exist. Thiq is rational. It is not certain.
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Yes, you're far to scary for me kiddo LOL.
Still avoiding my original point. If christians argue that all things in the universe are designed and have a first cause/primer mover then gOd must also have a prime mover/first cause, therefore, who created gOD. And don't tell me that gOD always existed because according to Christian cosmologists that is impossible
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Look at your question again. Who said god is in the universe?
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You are incorrect for the simple fact I never advocated anything. YOu assume I am advocating on behalf of big bang but did I ever mention it? I did not.
Apparently you've never been to getbig before. May I suggest you go to the positive board immediately to avoid future butthurt.
You assumed that I assumed that and you are wrong, I was not even thinking of the big bang, so what you talking about willis?
There is only 3 possible scenarios Einstein;
1. God
2. a beginning
3. No beginning
and if you do not believe in God that leaves only 2 ding dong.
A beginning which does not make sense and not rational or no beginning which also makes no sense or is not rational, take your pick. See no assumptions are made here about any big bang, you are the only jerk assuming things.
Now as far as me not ever being on getbig, brother, I OWN GETBIG :-*
EDIT; that was referring to MOS^^^, my bad, lol.
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Still avoiding my original point. If christians argue that all things in the universe are designed and have a first cause/primer mover then gOd must also have a prime mover/first cause, therefore, who created gOD. And don't tell me that gOD always existed because according to Christian cosmologists that is impossible
Nah, not avoiding....just ignoring....enjoy life.
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Still avoiding my original point. If christians argue that all things in the universe are designed and have a first cause/primer mover then gOd must also have a prime mover/first cause, therefore, who created gOD. And don't tell me that gOD always existed because according to Christian cosmologists that is impossible
That is not impossible simply because that is fact; God has always existed. Christians don't argue that all things in the universe are designed, rather that all CREATIONS in the universe are designed.
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Jon shut the fuck up. Your not doing any good by acting like you know god is a fact. Your only looking like a fucking jackass.
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Rational doesn't mean correct. It seems means "formulated using reasoning" (and reasoning isn't necessarily correct). Thinking there is probably a creator of some kind may not be accurate but it is rational so long as their is reasoning behind it. For example, I have never witnessed anything perfect or infinite or eternal, yet in my consciousness I have a deep feeling that all of those things exist. Since I don't understand how I could feel that way if they didn't actually exist (I don't understand how I could possibly imagine such concepts without them being possible) and in my own mind this feeling of infinite and eternal perfection makes me think its likely to exist. Thiq is rational. It is not certain.
This is absolutely wrong. Something isn't rational by default simply because it has reasoning behind it. The reason itself has to be sound and provable. You may feel that something exits because you have a sense of it, or believe you do, but that doesn't make it true. Many people have a sense of all kinds of things that are not true because human beings are imaginative creatures with the ability to create amazing things in their minds. I can imagine the feelings of flying in the air, and many have dreamed of such things but I dare anyone to climb to the tallest building and climb off. That you don't understand the origin or nature of your feelings doesn't mean it doesn't have a rational explanation outside what you have considered or want to believe.
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The term "rationalize" specifically refers to the act of using flawed logic to justify immoral behavior.
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I am a Christian and I feel my view is not rational but your view is not either so we are playing on even grounds here but for some strange reason you think that our concept is magical and yours is not, when in fact it is too.
This is where you argue that I am advocating the big bang. I have no idea what you are talking about owning getbig.
The term "rationalize" specifically refers to the act of using flawed logic to justify immoral behavior.
You are using the term rationalize in a colloquially way and not in terms of the formulation of a rational argument which requires the use of logic and reason. It is kind of like when people uses the word theory to mean a personal opinion instead of in its scientific meaning, which is very different.
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This is where you argue that I am advocating the big bang. I have no idea what you are talking about owning getbig.
I am not suggesting you are advocating bigbang you liar. Read my other post;
3 options only
1. God
2. a beginning
3. No beginning
and if you do not believe in God that leaves only 2 ding dong.
A beginning which does not make sense and not rational or no beginning which also makes no sense or is not rational, take your pick. See no assumptions are made here about any big bang, you are the only jerk assuming things.
get it.
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I am not suggesting you are advocating bigbang you liar. Read my other post;
3 options only
1. God
2. a beginning
3. No beginning
and if you do not believe in God that leaves only 2 ding dong.
A beginning which does not make sense and not rational or no beginning which also makes no sense or is not rational, take your pick. See no assumptions are made here about any big bang, you are the only jerk assuming things.
get it.
Reread previous post. Why are you getting so upset? And there is a third option and its the best one because its the most honest. The most honest answer is, I don't know.
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god is the mathmatical language and lineage of all things
the thing is you dont know math well enough to understand
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Logic and reason are both fallible. For example, an argument can be completely prima facie and still be wrong. Rational only denotes some form of logic/reasoning and is not a marker of accuracy
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Reread previous post. Why are you getting so upset? And there is a third option and its the best one because its the most honest. The most honest answer is, I don't know.
Because you are putting words in my mouth.
Your most honest answer of 'i don't know' still leaves you in the same dilema cause although you don't know, you still have no choice but to pick from 2 and 3 and both yield the same results and that is 'nothing rational or logical about those scenarios.
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Logic and reason are both fallible. For example, an argument can be completely prima facie and still be wrong. Rational only denotes some form of logic/reasoning and is not a marker of accuracy
Reason is only a process and is subject to being proven wrong as more information is obtained and evaluated. I've never argued that it is infallible but it does help bring one closer to what is true, in part by eliminating what is untrue. Discovering that your argument is flawed is exciting in itself because finding something is wrong is a truth in and of itself.
By the same token, you can't deny that your personal feelings about concepts like perfection and eternity are also not infallible and subject to being wrong.
Because you are putting words in my mouth.
Your most honest answer of 'i don't know' still leaves you in the same dilema cause although you don't know, you still have no choice but to pick from 2 and 3 and both yield the same results and that is 'nothing rational or logical about those scenarios.
I assumed you were saying I was advocating the big bang because in your argument you kept using "you." You don't have to pick either because in reality the answer has no appreciable effect on your life other than to satisfy a novel curiosity.
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god has had and has eternal mass
eternal means no begining and likely no end
because it IS that way
time as we know it today is EXACTLY the same as it was zillions upon zillions of years ago
experts wanna say big bang this evolution that but they are dead wrong
going back in time just takes you down the road of change but not a beginning since there are no beginning
im sure there are cycles of mass if you go back in time you will see patterns but no true "beginning" as we wish to define it
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I've heard many religious people mock the big bang theory because they question that how did nothing turn into something. But then in that same thought, where did God come from?
I have no idea. I am however, not "religious". Allow me if you will, to ask you this question.
Do you tell children everything, even when it is beyond their ability to understand? I seriously doubt it and I know from experience as I am a father.
Be well, sir.
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I have no idea. I am however, not "religious". Allow me if you will, to ask you this question.
Do you tell children everything, even when it is beyond their ability to understand? I seriously doubt it and I know from experience as I am a father.
Be well, sir.
Interesting
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Interesting
And, I trust...Enlightening.
Be well in all ways and for always.
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http://christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c039.html
(http://unknowninkdesign.com/UID/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/facepalm-849x10241.png)
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Jon shut the fuck up. Your not doing any good by acting like you know god is a fact. Your only looking like a fucking jackass.
I'm not acting like I know it, I KNOW it because it's manifestly true. Clowns like you were patently created by God yet you rail against His very existence.
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I have no idea. I am however, not "religious". Allow me if you will, to ask you this question.
Do you tell children everything, even when it is beyond their ability to understand? I seriously doubt it and I know from experience as I am a father.
Be well, sir.
You know, this is a very simple perspective I've tried to explain to others. I used too many words and probably left my audience saying, "Huh?" though. What you posted is simple and easy to grasp. I also used the "parent to child" analogy, but my audience was young, single guys that had no such perspective. So I tried the "Mothman Prophecies" movie logic LOL. Within that film, a professor explains to an average man who's been confronted by the mothmen and who was not given an explanation for their presence in his life and has sought out the professor for guidance. The professor asked the man, "You're more advanced than a cockroach, have you ever tried explaining yourself to one of them?"
The other thing I try and explain to nonbelievers is the presence of the Holy Spirit in the lives of believers. The Lord has made his presence very evident in my life repeatedly and tangibly....he's changed me. He's done this for millions of other believers as well, but because God hasn't explained to me his pre-creation history doesn't negate the revelation he has provided me in my life (and that revelation is enough for me to belief). Still, therein lies the ole (wait for it) notion of faith and/or the idea that a transcendent God (although still personal to believers) has qualities simply beyond our ability to comprehend.
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You know, this is a very simple perspective I've tried to explain to others. I used too many words and probably left my audience saying, "Huh?" though. What you posted is simple and easy to grasp. I also used the "parent to child" analogy, but my audience was young, single guys that had no such perspective. So I tried the "Mothman Prophecies" movie logic LOL. Within that film, a professor explains to an average man who's been confronted by the mothmen and who was not given an explanation for their presence in his life and has sought out the professor for guidance. The professor asked the man, "You're more advanced than a cockroach, have you ever tried explaining yourself to one of them?"
The other thing I try and explain to nonbelievers is the presence of the Holy Spirit in the lives of believers. The Lord has made his presence very evident in my life repeatedly and tangibly....he's changed me. He's done this for millions of other believers as well, but because God hasn't explained to me his pre-creation history doesn't negate the revelation he has provided me in my life (and that revelation is enough for me to belief). Still, therein lies the ole (wait for it) notion of faith and/or the idea that a transcendent God (although still personal to believers) has qualities simply beyond our ability to comprehend.
Would you have been Christian if you were born in Saudi Arabia?
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Would you have been Christian if you were born in Saudi Arabia?
I really couldn't say, but I am so thankful I was born in the United States. Still, my Christian family lived next door to many families all born in the US, in Texas that had no religious affiliations whatsoever.
What I can do is ask those families from Saudi Arabia and other areas of the middle east in my church that are Christians.
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I'm not acting like I know it, I KNOW it because it's manifestly true. Clowns like you were patently created by God yet you rail against His very existence.
i spend more time arguing with atheists than you could possibly imagine. and i do it in real life. i dont go around saying i know god exists because im not a damn fool. but i do go around pointing out concepts like causality, free will, infinite divisibility of matter, eternity infinite and perfection, the human conscience, etc in an attempt to persuade people to see the "light" if you will. i think a god does exist. but thats as far as an honest person can take their faith.
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You know, this is a very simple perspective I've tried to explain to others. I used too many words and probably left my audience saying, "Huh?" though. What you posted is simple and easy to grasp. I also used the "parent to child" analogy, but my audience was young, single guys that had no such perspective. So I tried the "Mothman Prophecies" movie logic LOL. Within that film, a professor explains to an average man who's been confronted by the mothmen and who was not given an explanation for their presence in his life and has sought out the professor for guidance. The professor asked the man, "You're more advanced than a cockroach, have you ever tried explaining yourself to one of them?"
The other thing I try and explain to nonbelievers is the presence of the Holy Spirit in the lives of believers. The Lord has made his presence very evident in my life repeatedly and tangibly....he's changed me. He's done this for millions of other believers as well, but because God hasn't explained to me his pre-creation history doesn't negate the revelation he has provided me in my life (and that revelation is enough for me to belief). Still, therein lies the ole (wait for it) notion of faith and/or the idea that a transcendent God (although still personal to believers) has qualities simply beyond our ability to comprehend.
when life (god) teaches you things, opens up your heart and mind, fills you with love and joy and assurance of eternity.. thatrs great and you SHOULD take it as evidence of gods existence. but what you shouldnt do is take it as evidence of your religious dogma (christianity)
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I really couldn't say, but I am so thankful I was born in the United States. Still, my Christian family lived next door to many families all born in the US, in Texas that had no religious affiliations whatsoever.
What I can do is ask those families from Saudi Arabia and other areas of the middle east in my church that are Christians.
you would be a muslim and you would be preaching about how god has revealed himself to you and how that is proof of muhammad's holiness, etc. just like you now use god's revelations as proof of christianity. people all throughout history have taken gods light and turned it into evidence of their personal cultural dogma. its extremely sad.
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You know, this is a very simple perspective I've tried to explain to others. I used too many words and probably left my audience saying, "Huh?" though. What you posted is simple and easy to grasp. I also used the "parent to child" analogy, but my audience was young, single guys that had no such perspective. So I tried the "Mothman Prophecies" movie logic LOL. Within that film, a professor explains to an average man who's been confronted by the mothmen and who was not given an explanation for their presence in his life and has sought out the professor for guidance. The professor asked the man, "You're more advanced than a cockroach, have you ever tried explaining yourself to one of them?"
The other thing I try and explain to nonbelievers is the presence of the Holy Spirit in the lives of believers. The Lord has made his presence very evident in my life repeatedly and tangibly....he's changed me. He's done this for millions of other believers as well, but because God hasn't explained to me his pre-creation history doesn't negate the revelation he has provided me in my life (and that revelation is enough for me to belief). Still, therein lies the ole (wait for it) notion of faith and/or the idea that a transcendent God (although still personal to believers) has qualities simply beyond our ability to comprehend.
I have finally learned to accept that not everyone will believe in the Christ. Not everyone wants to. That is their choice just as mine is to believe. I no longer care about their choice for it has zero effect upon how I live my life. However when someone is just plain ignorant like tbombz or rude such as garebear I have no problem stating such. An evil "faith" such as Islam is something I gladly speak out against. It is in many ways worse than Catholicism.
I am not called to explain the beginnings of the Universe nor it's Creator. Theoretical physicists attempt to do the former from a scientific aspect and near as I can tell, only fools attempt the latter.
Nonbelievers expect a Christian to just roll over and take their insults, to be beaten to a pulp in every way imaginable. Years ago a man said he was going to hit me because he despised my faith and I was going to have to take his beating because of my faith. I would have to turn the other cheek to prove my beliefs. We were in front of many people as it was just after work and off work grounds. I thought for a minute and told him this.
Once he hit me I would decide whether or not his act was because he was testing my faith or because he was suicidal. He walked away without ever delivering a single blow.
Here is wisdom for all who would hear...We are to do our best to live our faith, but not every "test" is one for which we must die for it. Be well.
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when life (god) teaches you things, opens up your heart and mind, fills you with love and joy and assurance of eternity.. thatrs great and you SHOULD take it as evidence of gods existence. but what you shouldnt do is take it as evidence of your religious dogma (christianity)
I understand your perspective and I respect your words, but I don't possess a merely cerebral notion of God in my life. I have a personal, tangible, consistently recurring encounter and relationship with the Holy Spirit. The same "helper" (essence/person of God) that came at Pentecost once Jesus Christ left this earth. It's not merely Christian dogma, it's real, tangible proof of Christ in the lives of his believers. I repeat this time and time again (not to be annoying or arrogant), and it's often brushed off as emotional prattle. The reality is, the Holy Spirit is essential - the most compelling evidence of God I know.
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I understand your perspective and I respect your words, but I don't possess a merely cerebral notion of God in my life. I have a personal, tangible, consistently recurring encounter and relationship with the Holy Spirit. The same "helper" (essence/person of God) that came at Pentecost once Jesus Christ left this earth. It's not merely Christian dogma, it's real, tangible proof of Christ in the lives of his believers. I repeat this time and time again (not to be annoying or arrogant), and it's often brushed off as emotional prattle. The reality is, the Holy Spirit is essential - the most compelling evidence of God I know.
And I not only am happy for you, but somewhat envious as well. What you have is but one aspect of our faith that I seek.
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you would be a muslim and you would be preaching about how god has revealed himself to you and how that is proof of muhammad's holiness, etc. just like you now use god's revelations as proof of christianity. people all throughout history have taken gods light and turned it into evidence of their personal cultural dogma. its extremely sad.
I hear what you're saying, but the reality is there is no personal relationship between Muslim and Allah. There is no sacrifice by Allah or gift of salvation. There is no Holy Spirit of Allah made manifest in the lives of Muslims. Allah does not lower himself or personally interact with his followers...he is purely transcendent. The Muslim seeks paradise with Allah purely by works and there's no guarantee that the Muslim will be granted access to Allah's paradise.
Of course a person born in one country or another is most likely going to be exposed to the predominant religion, food, art, music, etc... of that country/region, but that argument means nothing more than that. It certainly does nothing to negate Christianity. There is one God in Jesus Christ made manifest in the lives of believers through the Holy Spirit and regardless of where you were born Jesus Christ is available to all. That's why Christians are commanded to spread the good news of the gospel to the world. We can't sit idly by and let Satan consume Muslims by the millions year after year or allow areas of India and China (Asia) to remain untouched by the gospel of Christ.
Competing faith systems such as Islam stand in direct opposition to Christianity and denies every foundational tenet of Christianity. I fully believe that Muhammed did receive the Quran from a higher power, but not from Allah through the angel Gabriel/Jibril...the Quran came directly from Satan himself (he was disguised himself as an angel of light). Islam is one of Satan's most clever, deceitful tricks in mankind's history.
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And I not only am happy for you, but somewhat envious as well. What you have is but one aspect of our faith that I seek.
Trust me, I was far, far away the Holy Spirit in my recent past. The Lord broke me down to the ground before I fully surrendered to his will. Once I did my life has never been the same. I'm learning every single day what it means to surrender, love others, have faith and seek God's will.
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I hear what you're saying, but the reality is there is no personal relationship between Muslim and Allah. There is no sacrifice by Allah or gift of salvation. There is no Holy Spirit of Allah made manifest in the lives of Muslims. Allah does not lower himself or personally interact with his followers...he is purely transcendent. The Muslim seeks paradise with Allah purely by works and there's no guarantee that the Muslim will be granted access to Allah's paradise.
Of course a person born in one country or another is most likely going to be exposed to the predominant religion, food, art, music, etc... of that country/region, but that argument means nothing more than that. It certainly does nothing to negate Christianity. There is one God in Jesus Christ made manifest in the lives of believers through the Holy Spirit and regardless of where you were born Jesus Christ is available to all. That's why Christians are commanded to spread the good news of the gospel to the world. We can't sit idly by and let Satan consume Muslims by the millions year after year or allow areas of India and China (Asia) to remain untouched by the gospel of Christ.
Competing faith systems such as Islam stand in direct opposition to Christianity and denies every foundational tenet of Christianity. I fully believe that Muhammed did receive the Quran from a higher power, but not from Allah through the angel Gabriel/Jibril...the Quran came directly from Satan himself (he was disguised himself as an angel of light). Islam is one of Satan's most clever, deceitful tricks in mankind's history.
wow...are you kidding me MOS, going directly on attacks huh?
1. what do you call praying 5 times a day? prostrating directly to God the way Abraham, moses, jesus and Muhammad all did? there is VERY personal connection between Allah and Human beings(people who worship God alone, and dont say lies against God, like how he has a son). you pray to HIM alone, worship HIM, ask HIM for forgiveness, ask HIM for help. Do good deeeds, abstain from bad. thats how you get to heaven.
2. only thing which came from Satan is certain people saying God has a son. I mean think, accepct Jesus as the son of God and you admited into heaven? thats nothing but wishful thinking! Do good you get good, do bad you get bad, its simple.
3. Jesus died for you sins ::) So all i have to do is believe in that, then i can go get drunk. have sex with anyone i want, kill some people, robbery, rape, lie, do all things God has said not to do but since i think jesus died for my sins Im all good right? LOL thats sounds like satans work to me.
4. Jesus said NONE of the things you claim he says about being God, thats the dirty work of Paul. if you or anyone other modern christians went back to Jesus time he wouldnt recognize you as one of his followers, becuase neither him, not his diciples taught/said anything close to what you people say.
5. After jesus departed from this Earth, Jesus followers still worshiped as the jews worshiped in synogauges(funny how Modern day jews today accecpt that muslims worship the god of abraham and chrsitians dont, that alone tells you whos right whose worng), Jesus brought the renewal of the laws of Moses, not a whole diffrent idea that he is God, again this is the work of PUAL. the orginal chrsitians considerd themselves jews who followed Jesus as a prophet. the trintiy didnt come about until the 3rd century of the church (325 AD). for 300 years people followed jesus and worshiped like he did, then certain devaints started to change things.
6. Your bible has been touched thats why there are so many diffrent versions! the word of God has dozenns of versions? how is that?
7. Most importantly-
the Word Trinity isnt in the Bible!
8. lastly, your friend Paul never walked,talked, ate and never learned with jesus! the trinity is somthing he formulated off a vision he said he had! that sounds like satan work 100%!! and funny he had this vision while he was on the road to damascus to persecute christians!
sorry to be so rude, but calling someones religion from satan is unaccecptable, even more so when your own religion (christianity) has more holes then swiss cheese.
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wow...are you kidding me MOS, going directly on attacks huh?
1. there is VERY personal connection between Allah and Human beings(people who worship God alone, and dont say lies against God, like how he has a son). you pray to HIM alone, worship HIM, ask HIM for forgiveness, ask HIM for help. Do good deeeds, abstain from bad. thats how you get to heaven.
2. only thing which came from Satan is certain people saying God has a son. I mean think, accepct Jesus as the son of God and you admited into heaven? thats nothing but wishful thinking! Do good you get good, do bad you get bad, its simple.
3. Jesus died for you sins ::) So all i have to do is believe in that, then i can go get drunk. have sex with anyone i want, kill some people, robbery, rape, lie, do all things God has said not to do but since i think jesus died for my sins Im all good right? LOL thats sounds like satans work to me.
4. Jesus said NONE of the things you claim he says about being God, thats the dirty work of Paul. if you or anyone other modern christians went back to Jesus time he wouldnt recognize you as one of his followers, becuase neither him, not his diciples taught/said anything close to what you people say.
5. After jesus departed from this Earth, Jesus followers still worshiped as the jews worshiped in synogauges(funny how Modern day jews today accecpt that muslims worship the god of abraham and chrsitians dont, that alone tells you whos right whose worng), Jesus brought the renewal of the laws of Moses, not a whole diffrent idea that he is God, again this is the work of PUAL. the orginal chrsitians considerd themselves jews who followed Jesus as a prophet. the trintiy didnt come about until the 3rd century of the church (325 AD). for 300 years people followed jesus and worshiped like he did, then certain devaints started to change things.
6. Your bible has been touched thats why there are so many diffrent versions! the word of God has dozenns of versions? how is that?
7. Most importantly-
the Word Trinity isnt in the Bible!
8. lastly, your friend Paul never walked,talked, ate and never learned with jesus! the trinity is somthing he formulated off a vision he said he had! that sounds like satan work 100%!! and funny he had this vision while he was on the road to damascus to persecute christians!
sorry to be so rude, but calling someones religion from satan is unaccecptable, even more so when your own religion (christianity) has more holes then swiss cheese.
C`mon bro you guys say the same stuff about Jesus. You say he is not the son of God., so now it`s an attack if MOS says something in the same regards towards Islam? Brother saying Jesus is not our saviour is the same as us claiming that Muhammad is a false prophet, no disrespect intended at all. This is what the Bible teaches us, our we suppose to go against what we believe? Don`t take this as an insult bro, we are debating here and it should be friendly, if you do not like it when a Christian believes that Islam is a false religion then simply don`t debate them. You are basically accusing Christians of doing something ``unacceptable``when all they are doing is following what the Bible says.
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wow...are you kidding me MOS, going directly on attacks huh?
1. what do you call praying 5 times a day? prostrating directly to God the way Abraham, moses, jesus and Muhammad all did? there is VERY personal connection between Allah and Human beings(people who worship God alone, and dont say lies against God, like how he has a son). you pray to HIM alone, worship HIM, ask HIM for forgiveness, ask HIM for help. Do good deeeds, abstain from bad. thats how you get to heaven.
2. only thing which came from Satan is certain people saying God has a son. I mean think, accepct Jesus as the son of God and you admited into heaven? thats nothing but wishful thinking! Do good you get good, do bad you get bad, its simple.
3. Jesus died for you sins ::) So all i have to do is believe in that, then i can go get drunk. have sex with anyone i want, kill some people, robbery, rape, lie, do all things God has said not to do but since i think jesus died for my sins Im all good right? LOL thats sounds like satans work to me.
4. Jesus said NONE of the things you claim he says about being God, thats the dirty work of Paul. if you or anyone other modern christians went back to Jesus time he wouldnt recognize you as one of his followers, becuase neither him, not his diciples taught/said anything close to what you people say.
5. After jesus departed from this Earth, Jesus followers still worshiped as the jews worshiped in synogauges(funny how Modern day jews today accecpt that muslims worship the god of abraham and chrsitians dont, that alone tells you whos right whose worng), Jesus brought the renewal of the laws of Moses, not a whole diffrent idea that he is God, again this is the work of PUAL. the orginal chrsitians considerd themselves jews who followed Jesus as a prophet. the trintiy didnt come about until the 3rd century of the church (325 AD). for 300 years people followed jesus and worshiped like he did, then certain devaints started to change things.
6. Your bible has been touched thats why there are so many diffrent versions! the word of God has dozenns of versions? how is that?
7. Most importantly-
the Word Trinity isnt in the Bible!
8. lastly, your friend Paul never walked,talked, ate and never learned with jesus! the trinity is somthing he formulated off a vision he said he had! that sounds like satan work 100%!! and funny he had this vision while he was on the road to damascus to persecute christians!
sorry to be so rude, but calling someones religion from satan is unaccecptable, even more so when your own religion (christianity) has more holes then swiss cheese.
I'm sincerely sorry if you felt insulted, but trust when I say it's not an attack. I don't blame you for wanting to defend your faith....I really do understand that. I dislike the theology of Islam, not Muslims. Still, I can't sit by and simply let the truth go unsaid because Islam doesn't like it to hear it or read it. There is no other way to turn from Satan's lies and begin a journey towards Christ unless the truth is aired openly. And I already know there is absolutely no other way to say it gently than to just say it....I've tried and tried and tried.
Unfortunately I've already engaged in this same exchange with ahmed and bigbobs for several months, but I'll pray about addressing your points. I have addressed all these points in the recent past, but I'll consider doing so again because I do believe you will discuss in an appropriate manner. I should note that bigbobs is open for discussion (and I consider him a good man), but his mind is 100% made up (as is ahmed's) so I have moved on from further discussion with them in this regard.
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C`mon bro you guys say the same stuff about Jesus. You say he is not the son of God., so now it`s an attack if MOS says something in the same regards towards Islam? Brother saying Jesus is not our saviour is the same as us claiming that Muhammad is a false prophet, no disrespect intended at all. This is what the Bible teaches us, our we suppose to go against what we believe? Don`t take this as an insult bro, we are debating here and it should be friendly, if you do not like it when a Christian believes that Islam is a false religion then simply don`t debate them. You are basically accusing Christians of doing something ``unacceptable``when all they are doing is following what the Bible says.
Agreed.
For me, it's the Holy Spirit made manifest in my life that affirms Christ's divinity, resurrection, gift of salvation and Paul's ministry.
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C`mon bro you guys say the same stuff about Jesus. You say he is not the son of God., so now it`s an attack if MOS says something in the same regards towards Islam? Brother saying Jesus is not our saviour is the same as us claiming that Muhammad is a false prophet, no disrespect intended at all. This is what the Bible teaches us, our we suppose to go against what we believe? Don`t take this as an insult bro, we are debating here and it should be friendly, if you do not like it when a Christian believes that Islam is a false religion then simply don`t debate them. You are basically accusing Christians of doing something ``unacceptable``when all they are doing is following what the Bible says.
let me tell you somthing , I love jesus(pbuh), in fact I might even love him more then you two. I have never ever said even ONCE jesus was somehow related to satan...never will never have! Jesus was a messenger of God, any disrespect or insults to him is somthing i wouldnt even dare to say.
it seems we have come to a point where debating is no longer productive. I just want to close with a few final thoughts and with chapter 109 from the Qu'ran, I will make it short as its time for the 5th prayer and i have to go.
Chapter 109: The Disbelievers
Say, "O disbelievers, I do not worship what you worship, Nor are you worshippers of what I worship. Nor will I be a worshipper of what you worship , Nor will you be worshippers of what I worship. For you is your religion, and for me is my religion."
There is No God but Allah, and Muhammad, Jesus, Moses and Abraham(aswell as the other hundrends of thousands of prophets) are his messengers!
that being said, I wish you and your families all the best! May Allah Guide us all to the straight path, Maybe Bigbobs or Ahmed can take over, from here.
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let me tell you somthing , I love jesus(pbuh), in fact I might even love him more then you two. I have never ever said even ONCE jesus was somehow related to satan...never will never have! Jesus was a messenger of God, any disrespect or insults to him is somthing i wouldnt even dare to say.
it seems we have come to a point where debating is no longer productive. I just want to close with a few final thoughts and with chapter 109 from the Qu'ran, I will make it short as its time for the 5th prayer and i have to go.
Chapter 109: The Disbelievers
Say, "O disbelievers, I do not worship what you worship, Nor are you worshippers of what I worship. Nor will I be a worshipper of what you worship , Nor will you be worshippers of what I worship. For you is your religion, and for me is my religion."
There is No God but Allah, and Muhammad, Jesus, Moses and Abraham(aswell as the other hundrends of thousands of prophets) are his messengers!
that being said, I wish you and your families all the best! May Allah Guide us all to the straight path, Maybe Bigbobs or Ahmed can take over, from here.
You are taking these things in the wrong way. Muslims are good people in my book and any thing that people say bad to Muslims should be said to the rotten apples not to Muslims as a whole. Now please try to understand that it is my duty as a CHRISTIAN to believe that any other scripture is not of God and it is therefore an ideology devised by Satan to fool the massas. Is Islam a Satanic religion? OF COURSE NOT, obviously no Muslim on the planet has the intention of being associated with Satan.
Now having said that as Muslims continue to worship God and do acts of kindness and try to spread peace it does not mean that they do not have a false ideology, as is our duty to believe so as Christians.
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1.what do you call praying 5 times a day? prostrating directly to God the way Abraham, moses, jesus and Muhammad all did? there is VERY personal connection between Allah and Human beings(people who worship God alone, and dont say lies against God, like how he has a son). you pray to HIM alone, worship HIM, ask HIM for forgiveness, ask HIM for help. Do good deeeds, abstain from bad. thats how you get to heaven.
Unfortunately I call that a manmade ritual. Often times the religious rituals of men are empty acts. I’m not suggesting your prayers are empty, but I am suggesting that a non-scriptural, manmade procedure can be completely empty. It is not about works or procedure. As we’ve already discussed, prostration in prayer is not commanded in scripture. Prostration in prayer was a spontaneous response to unbelievable stress or the presence of God for men like Abraham. Christ prostrated himself in prayer because of the weight of mankind’s sin upon him. Within scripture we find descriptions of people standing, hands lifted, kneeling, prostrating and bowing in prayer. None of these actions or bodily positions are required in prayer in though, but as I’ve said I have no issue with prostration in prayer.
2. only thing which came from Satan is certain people saying God has a son. I mean think, accepct Jesus as the son of God and you admited into heaven? thats nothing but wishful thinking! Do good you get good, do bad you get bad, its simple.
My friend, here in lies a tremendous lie (if not the greatest lie) from Satan. When Christ was crucified and resurrected Satan then knew his time was short and that God had claimed victory over sin and death for all mankind. Satan is the leader of this Earth and the absolute enemy of mankind. To convince man that Christ was not crucified, not resurrected, is not the Son of God, that there is no salvation in Christ and that eternal life is attained by the works of man… “Do good you get good, do bad you get bad”…..stands in direct opposition of Christ and his gift of salvation. If it is stands in opposition of Christ or is the antithesis of Christ it is demonic in nature.
3. Jesus died for you sins So all i have to do is believe in that, then i can go get drunk. have sex with anyone i want, kill some people, robbery, rape, lie, do all things God has said not to do but since i think jesus died for my sins Im all good right? LOL thats sounds like satans work to me.
Oh my goodness no! Christ’s shed blood on the cross, that paid the price for our sins, is not a golden ticket that allows believers to “go forth and continue sinning”. A believer in Christ confesses that they are a sinner, lays those sins at Christ’s feet on Calvary’s cross. Those sins are covered and paid for by the shed blood of Christ on that cross and we are forgiven and given eternal life with our God, Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. When the believer confesses their sin and accepts Christ as Lord and Savior we are not only forgiven and indwelt with the Holy Spirit, but we are acknowledging that we are not only turning away from sin, but changing our minds completely in regards to sin and choosing to represent Christ and live a life as devoid of sin as possible. This is repentance.
Satan’s handiwork lies in the notion that men and women don’t need Christ’s shed blood on the cross and gift of salvation, that it’s by our own works or good deeds that we atone for our sins….this path leads to death in sin.
4. Jesus said NONE of the things you claim he says about being God, thats the dirty work of Paul. if you or anyone other modern christians went back to Jesus time he wouldnt recognize you as one of his followers, becuase neither him, not his diciples taught/said anything close to what you people say.
My friend, here is another example of Satan’s handiwork. The denial of Paul’s divinely inspired ministry by Jesus Christ as “pagan” or “of the corrupt Roman church” is another lie of Satan. Between myself, Butterbean, onetimehard, loco and others we have provided verse after verse of scripture affirming Christ’s divinity and Paul’s ministry. Although, this wasn’t “Paul’s ministry”, this was Jesus Christ’s ministry. Do you believe the gospels contain every word Christ spoke during his years of ministry?
John 21:25
25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.
Christ used his disciples and apostles to carry on his message of love and salvation through their own ministry and missionary work. Jesus disciples affirmed Paul’s ministry as well. Peter, part of Christ’s inner circle, fully affirms Paul:
2 Peter 3:14-18
14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17 Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.
5. After jesus departed from this Earth, Jesus followers still worshiped as the jews worshiped in synogauges(funny how Modern day jews today accecpt that muslims worship the god of abraham and chrsitians dont, that alone tells you whos right whose worng), Jesus brought the renewal of the laws of Moses, not a whole diffrent idea that he is God, again this is the work of PUAL. the orginal chrsitians considerd themselves jews who followed Jesus as a prophet. the trintiy didnt come about until the 3rd century of the church (325 AD). for 300 years people followed jesus and worshiped like he did, then certain devaints started to change things.
Admittedly this is discouraging, because it speaks to the notion that you’re turning a blind eye to the verses posted in so many different threads that affirm Christ’s divinity. Not only have I, butterbean, onetimehard posted verse after verse in recent months, but loco has taken up the mantle and posted verse after verse after verse in recent weeks addressing the divinity of Christ. If you refuse to read or read and refuse to acknowledge the words I’m helpless to assist other than to suggest taking it to the Lord in prayer.
Romans 10:9
9 If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Become a believer indwelt with the Holy Spirit and experience the absolute, tangible evidence for Jesus Christ in your own life.
6. Your bible has been touched thats why there are so many diffrent versions! the word of God has dozenns of versions? how is that?
Many people don’t speak Latin, Hebrew or Araimaic so we have English translations. Some don’t find the KJV easy to read because of the somewhat antiquated language (the “thees and thous” as it is often said). The New Living Translation and others are completely faithful to some of the oldest manuscripts.
7. Most importantly-
the Word Trinity isnt in the Bible!
I’ve never been clear why this idea is often the “boom pow” knockout punch? The word trinity is not found in the bible, but the divinity of God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit all are. Most importantly, and as I’ve said repeatedly, the Holy Spirit indwells Christ’s body of believers today. Further, calling upon the name of Jesus in moments of demonic attack is one of the most powerful weapons against the enemy I know. These scriptural concepts are all fully demonstrated in the lives of believers and in scripture.
8. lastly, your friend Paul never walked,talked, ate and never learned with jesus! the trinity is somthing he formulated off a vision he said he had! that sounds like satan work 100%!! and funny he had this vision while he was on the road to damascus to persecute christians!
I suppose you can refer to my reply in point #4. Christ’s inner circle affirms Paul’s ministry.
sorry to be so rude, but calling someones religion from satan is unaccecptable, even more so when your own religion (christianity) has more holes then swiss cheese.
Dude, I get why you’re upset, but I’m thinking about lives that will be potentially lost to the enemy of this world. If I don’t at least plant the seed, there will be nothing to consider.
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It's amusing you call Muslims praying five times a day as a 'man made ritual'.
When all christianity is founded upon is man made laws and rituals.
What do you call signum crucis? "The sign of the cross"? In the name of the father, Son and the Holy Spirit/Ghost.
Did Jesus do this? Nope. Did he preach this or teach this? Nope. You are the one that follows man made stuff.
Did God prohibit rabbis from marrying? Nope. Was Jesus called a rabbi? Yup all over the NT.
So why are priests forbidden from marrying? To be more 'pure'? Yet they rape children. It is AGAINST God's decree, AGAINST God's law, AGAINST human nature as God created us.
The apostles were all married, who lived and breathed with Jesus while he was alive. They all had pious wives. Did Paul marry? Nope.
Quite interesting yet again!
So please... speaking of 'man made stuff'... that's why I left Christianity as I wanted to follow God and the messengers not man made church non-sense which is riddled with misguidance.
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Aliens.
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Both scenario's are mind boggling and both have no rational explanation. So either way whether you go with God or you go with no God you are confronted with something that defies logic, explanation is contrary to the laws of physics.
Except that going with "God" merely adds an extra step and explains nothing; it merely pushes the explanation further away.
If we didn't know how rain forms, then for you to suggest that there is a mystical, unexplainable, supernatural rain god causes rain.
There is only 3 possible scenarios Einstein;
Really?
1. God
That explains nothing.
A beginning which does not make sense and not rational or no beginning which also makes no sense or is not rational, take your pick.
The Christian god supposedly has no beginning either. By your definition above, he doesn't make sense and is not rational.
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Except that going with "God" merely adds an extra step and explains nothing; it merely pushes the explanation further away.
If we didn't know how rain forms, then for you to suggest that there is a mystical, unexplainable, supernatural rain god causes rain.
Really?
That explains nothing.
The Christian god supposedly has no beginning either. By your definition above, he doesn't make sense and is not rational.
No shit ding dong
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No shit ding dong
So you believe in something nonsensical and irrational? Why believe it at all? Do you hold other nonsensical and irrational beliefs as well? And while I have your attention, there is something I'd like to ask you. Earlier I wrote:
Except that going with "God" merely adds an extra step and explains nothing; it merely pushes the explanation further away.
Can you tell me what the purpose in postulating a God is when that postulate explains nothing and helps answers none of the questions since all it does is function as an indirection?
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So you believe in something nonsensical and irrational? Why believe it at all? Do you hold other nonsensical and irrational beliefs as well? And while I have your attention, there is something I'd like to ask you. Earlier I wrote:
Can you tell me what the purpose in postulating a God is when that postulate explains nothing and helps answers none of the questions since all it does is function as an indirection?
At the end of the day we have only one of 3 options I listed. The only 3 possible options, all others fall into one of the three. So I can choose to be like you and not pick one or I can pick one, either way any one of them that ends up being the truth is nonsensical and irrational so you believe in something nonsensical and irrational too.
Now about the purpose of postulating a God? well, I don`t know if I would put it that way, but anyhow makes no difference, I will explain since you asked. I sense the presence of the Holy spirit and I am as sure of that as I am as sure as I am looking at my computer screen. Now for some strange reason if it ends up that I am really not looking at my computer screen then my brains playing tricks with me I guess. :)
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At the end of the day we have only one of 3 options I listed. The only 3 possible options, all others fall into one of the three. So I can choose to be like you and not pick one or I can pick one, either way any one of them that ends up being the truth is nonsensical and irrational so you believe in something nonsensical and irrational too.
I actually do pick an option, although it's not really one you list in your "three possibilities": I believe, based on the evidence available to us as of recently, that the current scientific understanding of the Big Bang is roughly correct; it may require polishing and tweaks, but I think that the basics are there. So I believe that there was a "beginning" and that there will be some "end". I put the words in quote because I believe that the words imply temporal and causal notions and since time is a property of the Universe, those words only have meaning within the Universe.
So in my view while time is both finite and infinite, depending on how you look at it. Let's imagine an observer O:
- To an imaginary O outside the Universe and able to somehow perceive and measure the time dimension of our Universe separately from the Universe itself, there would be a "limited" and finite amount of time.
- To an imaginary O inside the Universe, however, time is infinite and would appear as never-ending; assume that O cannot die and simply counts time to determine if it is finite or infinite. O will count time forever, and will never know that time has ended, even if he is the last thing contained in the Universe to be destroyed during the "end" right before the Universe (and therefore time).
Notice that our imaginary observer could detect the beginning of time whether he is inside or outside the Universe. It should be obvious that this is the case when O is outside the Universe. But what about inside? Assume, again, that the observer "blips" into existence along with the Universe. Then the beginning of time is the time at which the observer's counter is 0.
Now about the purpose of postulating a God? well, I don`t know if I would put it that way, but anyhow makes no difference, I will explain since you asked. I sense the presence of the Holy spirit and I am as sure of that as I am as sure as I am looking at my computer screen. Now for some strange reason if it ends up that I am really not looking at my computer screen then my brains playing tricks with me I guess. :)
Fair enough. I am sure that a personal revelation is powerful thing, and you've experienced something which you interpret as such, good for you. But that cannot be used as proof or evidence of anything in a rational debate on the subject for reasons I would hope are obvious.
Let me ask you a follow-up: On a purely rational and scientific level, do you see why "god" isn't an answer and doesn't help us in any way? How does it help to say, for example, that the Universe requires a creator if you then rush to add this creator does not require one?
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When the scientist and Roman Catholic priest Georges Lemaître first proposed what became known as the Big Bang theory, Einstein initially dismissed the theory without thought or consideration, in part because it came from a priest and because it implied "Creation" and a "Creator."
Einstein was quick to endorse both Lemaître and his theory only after Hubble confirmed the theory.
Georges Lemaître
(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=313560.0;attach=355011;image)
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I actually do pick an option, although it's not really one you list in your "three possibilities": I believe, based on the evidence available to us as of recently, that the current scientific understanding of the Big Bang is roughly correct; it may require polishing and tweaks, but I think that the basics are there. So I believe that there was a "beginning" and that there will be some "end". I put the words in quote because I believe that the words imply temporal and causal notions and since time is a property of the Universe, those words only have meaning within the Universe.
So in my view while time is both finite and infinite, depending on how you look at it. Let's imagine an observer O:
- To an imaginary O outside the Universe and able to somehow perceive and measure the time dimension of our Universe separately from the Universe itself, there would be a "limited" and finite amount of time.
- To an imaginary O inside the Universe, however, time is infinite and would appear as never-ending; assume that O cannot die and simply counts time to determine if it is finite or infinite. O will count time forever, and will never know that time has ended, even if he is the last thing contained in the Universe to be destroyed during the "end" right before the Universe (and therefore time).
Notice that our imaginary observer could detect the beginning of time whether he is inside or outside the Universe. It should be obvious that this is the case when O is outside the Universe. But what about inside? Assume, again, that the observer "blips" into existence along with the Universe. Then the beginning of time is the time at which the observer's counter is 0.
Fair enough. I am sure that a personal revelation is powerful thing, and you've experienced something which you interpret as such, good for you. But that cannot be used as proof or evidence of anything in a rational debate on the subject for reasons I would hope are obvious.
Let me ask you a follow-up: On a purely rational and scientific level, do you see why "god" isn't an answer and doesn't help us in any way? How does it help to say, for example, that the Universe requires a creator if you then rush to add this creator does not require one?
I don`t say that the earth requires a creator or I don`t think in the manner you suggested above so your question is pointless as I don`t hold that view, you are going to have to ask someone that does hold that view.
Now as far as you not picking one of the 3, yes you did, you picked ``a beginning`stop lying. As for your explanation, I already told you I get it and agree with it but for some reason you keep feeling the need to repeat yourself. Now I know beginning and end are restrained within the concept of space and time or our reality, but the fact remains although you can`t ask what was before (for reasons you stated) cause the word before would not apply outside of our existence it still makes no sense and it is still a nonsensical and irrational no matter how much you try to twist and turn it with your manipulative terminology the fact that existence had a beginning at all is still nonsensical and irrational.
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Jesus is what done it.
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Jesus is what done it.
Jesus is what done what?
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Jesus is what done what?
Doesn't matter.
Just agree.
It's in the bible, stupid.
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Doesn't matter.
Just agree.
It's in the bible, stupid.
??? ??? :P