Author Topic: U.S. can't prove Iran link to Iraq strife  (Read 4256 times)

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U.S. can't prove Iran link to Iraq strife
« on: February 04, 2007, 01:13:50 AM »
Despite pledges to show evidence, officials have repeatedly put off presenting their case.

Maura Reynolds
LA Times
Saturday, February 3, 2007

WASHINGTON — Bush administration officials acknowledged Friday that they had yet to compile evidence strong enough to back up publicly their claims that Iran is fomenting violence against U.S. troops in Iraq.

Administration officials have long complained that Iran was supplying Shiite Muslim militants with lethal explosives and other materiel used to kill U.S. military personnel. But despite several pledges to make the evidence public, the administration has twice postponed the release — most recently, a briefing by military officials scheduled for last Tuesday in Baghdad.

"The truth is, quite frankly, we thought the briefing overstated, and we sent it back to get it narrowed and focused on the facts," national security advisor Stephen J. Hadley said Friday.

The acknowledgment comes amid shifting administration messages on Iran. After several weeks of saber rattling that included a stiff warning by President Bush and the dispatch of two aircraft carrier strike groups to the Persian Gulf, near Iran, the administration has insisted in recent days that it does not want to escalate tensions or to invade Iran.

Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates seemed to concede Friday that U.S. officials can't say for sure whether the Iranian government is involved in assisting the attacks on U.S. personnel in Iraq.

"I don't know that we know the answer to that question," Gates said.

Earlier this week, U.S. officials acknowledged that they were uncertain about the strength of their evidence and were reluctant to issue potentially questionable data in the wake of the intelligence failures and erroneous assessments that preceded the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq.

In particular, officials worried about a repetition of former Secretary of State Colin L. Powell's February 2003 U.N. appearance to present the U.S. case against Iraq. In that speech, Powell cited evidence that was later discredited.

In rejecting the case compiled against Iran, senior U.S. officials, including Hadley, Gates and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, confirmed Friday that they were concerned about possible inaccuracies.

"I and Secretary Rice and the national security advisor want to make sure that the briefing that is provided is absolutely accurate and is dominated by facts — serial numbers, technology and so on," Gates told reporters at the Pentagon.

Another reason for the delay, as is often the case when releasing intelligence, was that officials were concerned about inadvertently helping adversaries identify the agents or sources that provided the intelligence, Hadley said.

Hadley also said that the administration sought to delay the release of evidence until after a key intelligence report on Iraq was unveiled, so that Americans could place the evidence in the context of the broader conflict.

That report, called a National Intelligence Estimate, was issued Friday, concluding that Iraq was deteriorating and faces a bleak future that U.S. efforts may do little to avert.

However, the report tends to downplay the role of Iran and Syria, another target of U.S. criticism, in fomenting sectarian violence, while acknowledging that Iranian involvement "intensifies" the conflict.

"The involvement of these outside actors is not likely to be a major driver of violence or the prospects for stability because of the self-sustaining character of Iraq's internal sectarian dynamics," says the report, compiled by experts from the nation's 16 intelligence agencies.

Few doubt that Iran is working to increase its influence inside Iraq, but many of its beneficiaries have been political groups that also are allied with the United States.

So far, the U.S. government has provided scant evidence that the government of Iran is directly supporting militant Shiite groups.

U.S. military leaders in Iraq have said they have evidence that Iran is behind the supply network of explosives. Military officials have blamed Iran for the increasing casualties caused by the use of "shaped charge" explosive devices that can penetrate armored vehicles.

"What we are trying to do is … counter what the Iranians are doing to our soldiers, their involvement in activities, particularly these explosively formed projectiles that are killing our troops, and we are trying to get them to stop their nuclear enrichment," Gates said.

U.S. officials detained five Iranians in a raid in the northern Iraqi city of Irbil last month, accusing them of planning attacks on Americans.

Gates also acknowledged Friday that there was "a lot of speculation" about involvement by Iranians in the abduction and killings of five U.S. servicemen in Karbala last month. But he refused to say whether an investigation had turned up any evidence that Iranians took part.

"I would just tell you flatly that the investigation is still going on, and the information that I've seen is ambiguous," Gates said. "It's not clear yet."

In a major speech on Iraq last month, Bush accused Iran of "providing material support for attacks on American troops" and vowed to "seek out and destroy" weapon transport networks.

Since then, Air Force officials have said they are planning new missions that could include flights along the Iran-Iraq border aimed at disrupting weapons shipments.

Iranian officials challenged the Americans to produce evidence of their charges, and Zalmay Khalilzad, the U.S. ambassador to Iraq, pledged last week to do so.

The increasingly harsh words from the Bush administration stoked fears of a possible U.S. attack on Iran. In recent days, the White House and top U.S. officials have sought to counter the concern. Gates became the latest administration official to offer such reassurances.

"The president has made clear, the secretary of State has made clear, I've made clear … we are not planning for a war with Iran," Gates said Friday

Hedgehog

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Re: U.S. can't prove Iran link to Iraq strife
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2007, 04:41:36 AM »
Great news.

The media should be the fourth branch, checking the other three branches of power.

Perhaps the media is starting to do their job again?

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Re: U.S. can't prove Iran link to Iraq strife
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2007, 04:47:51 AM »
...however, that's not going to stop certain people from trying to make that case through lies, lies and more damned lies. And it's not goiing to stop guys like Rush or FOX News from repeating those lies to fool trusting and shell shocked Americans again.
w

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Re: U.S. can't prove Iran link to Iraq strife
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2007, 05:15:50 AM »
...however, that's not going to stop certain people from trying to make that case through lies, lies and more damned lies. And it's not goiing to stop guys like Rush or FOX News from repeating those lies to fool trusting and shell shocked Americans again.

And? ::)

We live in a free world, with freedom of speech. Anyone is free to say what they want.

It works just fine when the media do their job of keeping the people in power in check. Because then, the lies will be caught.


So I don't worry about lies from politicians as long as the media do their job.


Simply because any politician who lies will be exposed.

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Re: U.S. can't prove Iran link to Iraq strife
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2007, 05:33:50 AM »
And? ::)

We live in a free world, with freedom of speech. Anyone is free to say what they want.

It works just fine when the media do their job of keeping the people in power in check. Because then, the lies will be caught.


So I don't worry about lies from politicians as long as the media do their job.


Simply because any politician who lies will be exposed.

-Hedge

Please re-read my post. I'm refering to the propogation of lies by the media.
it's no secret that many of these companies are vertically integrated.

Meaning, the TV network is owned by a company which is owned by another company with a direct conflict of interest between exposing the truth, and supporting the lies. In such a case the interests of the parent company always take precedence, ...at least that has been the case thus far. Sadly, I doubt it will change anytime soon.
w

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Re: U.S. can't prove Iran link to Iraq strife
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2007, 05:50:32 AM »
And? ::)

We live in a free world, with freedom of speech. Anyone is free to say what they want.

It works just fine when the media do their job of keeping the people in power in check. Because then, the lies will be caught.

So I don't worry about lies from politicians as long as the media do their job.


Simply because any politician who lies will be exposed.

-Hedge
To bad that part has largely been tossed out in America.  Or at least it did completely in the years after 9/11 and I see no reason it won't happen again when the next national crisis hits, and that's when we need them the most to scrutinize politicians because it's during those times they make the most drastic changes.  Over this last year+ I'm just now starting to see some solid examples of some checks of power in the mainstream media but overall it's still grossly inadequate.  Largely it was outlets like Democracy Now that kept up this fight through hard times so kudos to them.  In my opinion the corporate ran media is a disaster in America.  This is exactly why we saw fake news comedy shows reach all time highs in popularity like The Daily Show and why Blogs took off so successfully.  People weren't buying the spoonfed bullshit lies/propaganda and nonsense diversion stories coming out of the major media outlets.  And to make matters worse, America should never have a state ran media outlet like Fox served itself to be.  When Republican scandals like Foley, Delay, Abramoff, Bob Ney, Duke Cunningham etc etc were unfolding, Fox news had these guy's backs and did their dang best to put forth adequate cover.  Instead of exposing criminal politicians, they aided them over at Fox.

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Re: U.S. can't prove Iran link to Iraq strife
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2007, 07:17:26 AM »
Something happened right around 9/11.

Remember the initial reaction to the towers falling, when CNBC alluded to the fact that buildings do not fall like this naturally, that this is reminiscent of controlled demo (CBS), etc.  The day after, you had CNN's guy grilling Pataki about how the hell it vaporized (Scumfck Pataki repeating constantly the keyword "pulllllllll-verized!"  Remember Rummy being grilled by the media at the Pentagon "We see no plane, Mr Rumsfeld.  Where are the pics of the plane?  Why can't we see the videos?"

The mandate came down for nat'l security reasons and you could just tell everyone "dropping it".

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Re: U.S. can't prove Iran link to Iraq strife
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2007, 08:34:33 AM »
To bad that part has largely been tossed out in America.  Or at least it did completely in the years after 9/11 and I see no reason it won't happen again when the next national crisis hits, and that's when we need them the most to scrutinize politicians because it's during those times they make the most drastic changes.  Over this last year+ I'm just now starting to see some solid examples of some checks of power in the mainstream media but overall it's still grossly inadequate.  Largely it was outlets like Democracy Now that kept up this fight through hard times so kudos to them.  In my opinion the corporate ran media is a disaster in America.  This is exactly why we saw fake news comedy shows reach all time highs in popularity like The Daily Show and why Blogs took off so successfully.  People weren't buying the spoonfed bullshit lies/propaganda and nonsense diversion stories coming out of the major media outlets.  And to make matters worse, America should never have a state ran media outlet like Fox served itself to be.  When Republican scandals like Foley, Delay, Abramoff, Bob Ney, Duke Cunningham etc etc were unfolding, Fox news had these guy's backs and did their dang best to put forth adequate cover.  Instead of exposing criminal politicians, they aided them over at Fox.

The self censoring implimented by the media after 9/11 is devastating to any democracy, it throws off the balance of power.

It wasn't so much the three other branches striking down on the media IMO, but rather the media backed down voluntarily, showed no courage.

It's understandable that in rough situations, like 9/11, that investigating of "your own" government initially won't be popular. But it's necessary to keep it on its toes, and to prevent it from slacking.

I don't buy the conspiracy theorists idea that the government control the media, and for anyone who do so I recommend reading Maxwell McCombs' "Setting the Agenda".

What will happen next? Best case scenario: Mainstream media wakes up and smells the coffee, becomes investigative, critically looks into all politicians. No self-censoring of reports from other parts of the world, and an eager journalism that investigates more and spend less time bringing Turd TV such as E!TV.

Worst case scenario: After the president election, the media will settle for a battered wife position, ie take a back seat.

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Re: U.S. can't prove Iran link to Iraq strife
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2007, 09:27:40 AM »
I think if the media knew THEN - what it knows NOW - it wouldn't have complied like that.  There was a strong atmosphere of fear, and patriotism sold, and they were no doubt influenced from the top of their own organizations as to the direction to take (IE: Ignore some glaring oddities, not focus on the 'bush knew about 9/11 before 9/11' angle that could have been monumental).

At this point, it's very safe to say that the majority of the world believes 911 was an inside job.  There is now a total ban on covering the 911 Truth movement for all major cable news.  Why would they comply with this?  A completely underground movement which is convincing hundreds of millions of people that 911 *the event which changed the world* has been staged?

This is incredible, of course.  Whether you believe it was an inside job or not, there is no discounting just how huge it is that such a belief is so prevalent.  For them to completely not address it is odd. 

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Re: U.S. can't prove Iran link to Iraq strife
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2007, 09:45:03 AM »


At this point, it's very safe to say that the majority of the world believes 911 was an inside job.  There is now a total ban on covering the 911 Truth movement for all major cable news.  Why would they comply with this?  A completely underground movement which is convincing hundreds of millions of people that 911 *the event which changed the world* has been staged?


You speak of the majority of the World.

I can only speak for how the situation is here in Sweden.

There is no discussion regarding any conspiracy theory, I don't ever hear any journalists or any regular people ever discussing a conspiracy. It's not something people consider. Why? I guess it is mostly because so many people saw one of the incidents live on TV, but primarily:

No nation would ever stage a terror crime of that magnitude on its own people.

Also, there are no proofs put out.

So Swedes in general does not believe in a conspiracy.


And we have a very independent media, which has been looking critically into both sides of the story of the War on Terrorism for several years. The media in Sweden does NOT have a ban. I know this for a fact.

So I have to disagree with you on both accounts, at least regarding the situation here in Sweden, which is the only country I feel I have good enough knowledge about to make clear statements like these.


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Re: U.S. can't prove Iran link to Iraq strife
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2007, 09:47:30 AM »
I don't buy the conspiracy theorists idea that the government control the media, and for anyone who do so I recommend reading Maxwell McCombs' "Setting the Agenda".

-Hedge

Me neither.  It doesn't make any sense. 

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Re: U.S. can't prove Iran link to Iraq strife
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2007, 10:08:07 AM »
No nation would ever stage a terror crime of that magnitude on its own people.

Would a nation allow an attack which would kill ONE man if it meant the resulting justified actions would lead to control of the majority of all the world's energy?

(I think the answer will be a resounding yes).

Would a nation let TWO die for the same goal of global energy dominance?

(Again, a resounding yes, right?)


I think the issue now lies in this:  Where would Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld draw the line in the number of acceptable deaths, in order to gain global energy and defensive dominance? 5? 10? 3000?  Somewhere in between?  Remember that these 3 men live energy and defense and two of them have a lifetime history of making hard decisions for the good of all, in govt.

I don't see why so many people believe 3000 wouldn't be an acceptable sacrifice.  Without the afghan invasion, there is no US pipeline in afghanistan, no war in Iraq certainly.  S. American conglomerate takes over afghan oil in 2002 and by 2006, Chavez owns half of the world's fuel.  Suddenly, the S. American conglomerate is a second superpower. 

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Re: U.S. can't prove Iran link to Iraq strife
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2007, 10:24:36 AM »
Would a nation allow an attack which would kill ONE man if it meant the resulting justified actions would lead to control of the majority of all the world's energy?

(I think the answer will be a resounding yes).

Would a nation let TWO die for the same goal of global energy dominance?

(Again, a resounding yes, right?

I can only speak for how it is in Sweden. People don't discuss a conspiracy theory, generally speaking of course. This I bring up only because you mentioned that a majority of the people in the world believed that 9/11 was an inside job, and I don't see any tendencies of that being true here in Sweden at least.




Quote
S. American conglomerate takes over afghan oil in 2002 and by 2006, Chavez owns half of the world's fuel.  Suddenly, the S. American conglomerate is a second superpower. 

How do you mean that Chavez own half of the world's fuel? Please explain what you mean.

Chavez (Venezuela) does NOT own or even control half of the world's fuel.

Or even half of the world's oil.

Canada has the second biggest oil reserve in the world, Saudi Arabia, a close ally of the USA, has the biggest. Venezuela are in the top ten though.




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Re: U.S. can't prove Iran link to Iraq strife
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2007, 10:34:03 AM »
The Taleban blew off the US in July 2001 and inked a deal with an oil firm from argentina.  The coveted pipeline to the newly discovered caspian riches.

hugo was forming the beginnings of his s. american conglomerate at that time (one united against US aggression among other things)

I can envision this s. american union controlling afghan oil and venez oil, making deals with iraq/iran, and suddenly being able to DICTATE the terms at which the US could buy oil.  Everyone started dropping the dollar in 2001/2002.  imagine the mess the US would be in today without the invasion.

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Re: U.S. can't prove Iran link to Iraq strife
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2007, 12:17:12 PM »
Where would Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld draw the line in the number of acceptable deaths, in order to gain global energy and defensive dominance? 5? 10? 3000?

I know I'm preaching to the choir here... but my Amazon.com review of Crossing The Rubicon seems appropriate here:

<< Remember the smirking kleptocrats who strummed guitars and went shoe shopping while the nursing homes flooded in New Orleans - and then left the bodies to rot in the streets. Who imprisoned an American citizen without charge for three years. Who proclaim the right to spy on its citizens without warrant. And who are now giving your money to Halliburton to build domestic internment camps... [This is all public record, folks. Look it up yourselves.]

So any honest examination of possible government involvement in 9/11 has to begin with the acknowledgment that the murder of innocents- even American ones - would pose no moral difficulty at all  for these ruthless and despicable traitors. >>

FWIW, I don't think the ruling junta will court the embarrassment of another "presentation of evidence".



They'll just give Israel the green light to bomb some Iranian facilities "in self defense". Then when Iran swipes back with a few SCUDs, we can piously claim to be "defending an ally" when we make our "surgical strikes" against their orphanages and aspirin factories.


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Re: U.S. can't prove Iran link to Iraq strife
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2007, 12:21:21 PM »
i predict nodoby will be able to dispute any of the facts that ribo just presented.

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Re: U.S. can't prove Iran link to Iraq strife
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2007, 12:31:46 PM »
i predict nodoby will be able to dispute any of the facts that ribo just presented.

What facts?

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Re: U.S. can't prove Iran link to Iraq strife
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2007, 12:35:03 PM »
What facts?



imprisoned an American citizen without charge for three years.
proclaim the right to spy on its citizens without warrant.
now giving your money to Halliburton to build domestic internment camps

ribonucleic

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Re: U.S. can't prove Iran link to Iraq strife
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2007, 12:39:00 PM »


imprisoned an American citizen without charge for three years.
proclaim the right to spy on its citizens without warrant.
now giving your money to Halliburton to build domestic internment camps

You still don't understand the right-wing mindset.

To them, these are all good things. They keep us safe from terrorists.  ::)

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Re: U.S. can't prove Iran link to Iraq strife
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2007, 12:40:37 PM »


imprisoned an American citizen without charge for three years.
proclaim the right to spy on its citizens without warrant.
now giving your money to Halliburton to build domestic internment camps

The post is an opinion piece.

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Re: U.S. can't prove Iran link to Iraq strife
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2007, 12:46:15 PM »
The post is an opinion piece.



Did we imprison an American citizen without charge for three years?
YES OR NO?

Did Bush proclaim the right to spy on its citizens without warrant?
YES OR NO?

Are we now giving money to Halliburton to build domestic internment camps?
YES OR NO?



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Re: U.S. can't prove Iran link to Iraq strife
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2007, 12:52:25 PM »


Did we imprison an American citizen without charge for three years?
YES OR NO?

Did Bush proclaim the right to spy on its citizens without warrant?
YES OR NO?

Are we now giving money to Halliburton to build domestic internment camps?
YES OR NO?


1.  I have no idea.

2.  No, but he may have relied on the advice of counsel for warrantless wiretaps of suspected terrorists, if that's what you mean.  I don't support warrentless wiretaps, BTW.   

3.  I have no idea.  Who is "we"?   

Like I said, an opinion piece.  And before you go there, people who disagree with your opinion aren't "naive" or "stupid," etc. 

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Re: U.S. can't prove Iran link to Iraq strife
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2007, 12:55:40 PM »
1.  I have no idea.

Why would you call his statement an "opinion" when you don't know if it's true or not.  It's absolutely true.

2.  No, but he may have relied on the advice of counsel for warrantless wiretaps of suspected terrorists, if that's what you mean.  I don't support warrentless wiretaps, BTW.   

No, Bush said he was going to do it, and he did it.

3.  I have no idea.  Who is "we"?   

taxpayers.


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Re: U.S. can't prove Iran link to Iraq strife
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2007, 12:57:39 PM »
Why would you call his statement an "opinion" when you don't know if it's true or not.  It's absolutely true.

No, Bush said he was going to do it, and he did it.

taxpayers.



Proof?

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Re: U.S. can't prove Iran link to Iraq strife
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2007, 12:58:54 PM »
Proof?

LOL...  of which one?  jeez, are you going to apologize to ribo for calling his post "an opinion piece" when it turns out all 3 are facts?