Author Topic: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality  (Read 40734 times)

Dos Equis

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #250 on: May 27, 2012, 10:39:19 AM »
It seems the going rate is:

Sins that disgust people - Relevant

Sins that people like - Irrevelant

lol.  Truth.   :)

avxo

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #251 on: May 27, 2012, 10:41:05 AM »
"Right" and "wrong", based on WHAT STANDARDS? You can't have such, without a measuring stick against which to make such a call.

Are you suggesting that such standards can only be divine in origin, and that we are unable to define rational moral code?

MCWAY

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #252 on: May 27, 2012, 12:12:23 PM »
Are you suggesting that such standards can only be divine in origin, and that we are unable to define rational moral code?

I'm not suggesting it. I'm stating it, flat-out.

Which man or men get to decide what is right and what is wrong, and who gives them the authority to do such?


avxo

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #253 on: May 27, 2012, 12:40:54 PM »
I'm not suggesting it. I'm stating it, flat-out.

You're flat out wrong. And if you were right, you'd have no way of knowing if this divine morality was good or not anyways.


Which man or men get to decide what is right and what is wrong, and who gives them the authority to do such?

Each man gets to decide what his moral code is. If his choice is rational, then he arrives at the same moral code as all other rational men. As for the rest of you, who aren't rational, why care about you? Irrationality is it's own worst enemy.

Primemuscle

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #254 on: May 27, 2012, 01:05:53 PM »
"Right" and "wrong", based on WHAT STANDARDS? You can't have such, without a measuring stick against which to make such a call.

Common sense....most people, with the exception of sociopaths, innately know right from wrong. Some of this is based on our childhood experiences. Even people who follow the Bible's teachings closely sometimes do bad things.

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #255 on: May 27, 2012, 07:53:34 PM »
"Right" and "wrong", based on WHAT STANDARDS? You can't have such, without a measuring stick against which to make such a call.

Correct. Sin is a condition we are born into the minute we breath life. Gods Holy Laws and standards are not the same as human "standards". "Right" and "wrong" is merely a conscious awereness of our sin or the choice between "good and evil". We can never apease God however by our own standards. The cults and false religions go by and teach a "works based religion" but "works" which is merely standing by a "right from wrong mentaly" can never give one right standing with God. If that were so the whole message of the gospel and the death of Christ on the cross would be completely void and nullified. We would have merely needed to simply follow the the Ten Commandments.

avxo

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #256 on: May 27, 2012, 08:06:42 PM »
Correct. Sin is a condition we are born into the minute we breath life.

Bullshit. You and your ilk, who believe that, believe in a god that is profoundly immoral. That you can't see that doesn't change that fact.


A "sin" Gods Holy Laws and standards are not the same as human "standards". "Right" and "wrong" is merely a conscious awereness of our sin or the choice between "good and evil". We can never apease God however by our own standards. The cults and false religions go by and teach a "works based religion" but "works" which is merely standing by a "right from wrong mentaly" can never give one right standing with God. If that were so the whole message of the gospel and the death of Christ on the cross would be completely void and nullified. We would have merely needed to simply follow the the Ten Commandments.

"The name of this monstrous absurdity is Original Sin. A sin without volition is a slap at morality and an insolent contradiction in terms: that which is outside the possibility of choice is outside the province of morality. If man is evil by birth, he has no will, no power to change it; if he has no will, he can be neither good nor evil; a robot is amoral. To hold, as man's sin, a fact not open to his choice is a mockery of morality. To hold man's nature as his sin is a mockery of nature. To punish him for a crime he committed before he was born is a mockery of justice. To hold him guilty in a matter where no innocence exists is a mockery of reason. To destroy morality, nature, justice and reason by means of a single concept is a feat of evil hardly to be matched. Yet that is the root of your code.

Do not hide behind the cowardly evasion that man is born with free will, but with a 'tendency' to evil. A free will saddled with a tendency is like a game with loaded dice. It forces man to struggle through the effort of playing, to bear responsibility and pay for the game, but the decision is weighted in favor of a tendency that he had no power to escape. If the tendency is of his choice, he cannot possess it at birth; if it is not of his choice, his will is not free.

What is the nature of the guilt that your teachers call his Original Sin? What are the evils man acquired when he fell from a state they consider perfection? Their myth declares that he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge - he acquired a mind and became a rational being. It was the knowledge of good and evil - he became a moral being. He was sentenced to earn his bread by his labor - he became a productive being. He was sentenced to experience desire - he acquired the capacity of sexual enjoyment. The evils for which they damn him are reason, morality, creativeness, joy - all the cardinal values of his existence. It is not his vices that their myth of man's fall is designed to explain and condemn, it is not his errors that they hold as his guilt, but the essence of his nature as man. Whatever he was - that robot in the Garden of Eden, who existed without mind, without values, without labor, without love - he was not man.

Man's fall, according to your teachers, was that he gained the virtues required to live. These virtues, by their standard, are his Sin. His evil, they charge, is that he's man. His guilt, they charge, is that he lives. They call it a morality of mercy and a doctrine of love for man."

OzmO

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #257 on: May 27, 2012, 09:18:44 PM »
Bullshit. You and your ilk, who believe that, believe in a god that is profoundly immoral. That you can't see that doesn't change that fact.

That's an understatement. 

Primemuscle

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #258 on: May 27, 2012, 11:30:33 PM »
Correct. Sin is a condition we are born into the minute we breath life. Gods Holy Laws and standards are not the same as human "standards". "Right" and "wrong" is merely a conscious awereness of our sin or the choice between "good and evil". We can never apease God however by our own standards. The cults and false religions go by and teach a "works based religion" but "works" which is merely standing by a "right from wrong mentaly" can never give one right standing with God. If that were so the whole message of the gospel and the death of Christ on the cross would be completely void and nullified. We would have merely needed to simply follow the the Ten Commandments.

Hope this works for you. It does not work for me. Original sin is something I cannot abide.

It occurs to me that the world would be a better place today if people could have simply followed the Ten Commandments. Countless wars have been fought and millions of people have died in vain because of differing religious beliefs. Of course most all of these people believed and they knew the way.

Primemuscle

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #259 on: May 27, 2012, 11:36:52 PM »
The Old and New Testament are consistent when it comes to homosexuality.  

Seems like it would be difficult to call portions of the book irrelevant if you haven't read it.  

The reason it is not difficult to do this is because so many folks quote and interpert the Bible to suit their own beliefs and feelings regardless of whether they are right or wrong. Ever witness a religious discussion between, say, Jehovah's Witnesses and Catholics where they quote the bible. It is as if they are discussing two very different books and each party believes their way is the only right way.

Primemuscle

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #260 on: May 27, 2012, 11:40:10 PM »
Are you suggesting that such standards can only be divine in origin, and that we are unable to define rational moral code?

I think that is exactly what some folks believe. That is why they seek devine forgiveness for repeated offenses (sins). They delude themselves.

MCWAY

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #261 on: May 28, 2012, 07:39:24 AM »
You're flat out wrong. And if you were right, you'd have no way of knowing if this divine morality was good or not anyways.


Each man gets to decide what his moral code is. If his choice is rational, then he arrives at the same moral code as all other rational men. As for the rest of you, who aren't rational, why care about you? Irrationality is it's own worst enemy.

You're talking in circles. WHO gets to decide what is "rational" and what isn't?

If each man decides his moral code, who are YOU to say that my code isn't rational and yours is? You're claiming that consensus equals rationality. If that's the case, you may recall that the consensus was once that the world was flat.

garebear

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #262 on: May 28, 2012, 07:42:58 AM »
You're talking in circles. WHO gets to decide what is "rational" and what isn't?

If each man decides his moral code, who are YOU to say that my code isn't rational and yours is? You're claiming that consensus equals rationality. If that's the case, you may recall that the consensus was once that the world was flat.
That's not true?

G

avxo

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #263 on: May 28, 2012, 08:29:58 AM »
You're talking in circles. WHO gets to decide what is "rational" and what isn't?

Nobody has to decide what is and isn't rational. Things are what they are.


If each man decides his moral code, who are YOU to say that my code isn't rational and yours is? You're claiming that consensus equals rationality. If that's the case, you may recall that the consensus was once that the world was flat.

No. It's the other way 'round: I'm claiming that rationality means consensus.

Shockwave

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #264 on: May 28, 2012, 10:12:33 AM »
Nobody has to decide what is and isn't rational. Things are what they are.


No. It's the other way 'round: I'm claiming that rationality means consensus.
So wait.. youre saying Morality is subjective but RATIONALITY isnt?

Whats rational to YOU may be highly irrational to someone else.

Your logic makes no sense here man, which is unusual.

Primemuscle

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #265 on: May 28, 2012, 10:13:37 AM »
You're talking in circles. WHO gets to decide what is "rational" and what isn't?

If each man decides his moral code, who are YOU to say that my code isn't rational and yours is? You're claiming that consensus equals rationality. If that's the case, you may recall that the consensus was once that the world was flat.

Believing that the world is flat is not a moral issue. Your example doesn't hold water.

Shockwave

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #266 on: May 28, 2012, 10:20:25 AM »
Believing that the world is flat is not a moral issue. Your example doesn't hold water.
Example doesnt, but his point does.
Rationalilty is highly subjective.
There isnt a "universal" rational code, just a there isnt a universal "moral" code.

OzmO

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #267 on: May 28, 2012, 10:21:19 AM »
Morality was developed in other religions too and there are constant morals in all of them, such as don not kill, steal, rape, etc.  Not to mention, in philosophy also.

ALL these are from MAN including the ones form the Bible.

Shockwave

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #268 on: May 28, 2012, 10:23:35 AM »
Morality was developed in other religions too and there are constant morals in all of them, such as don not kill, steal, rape, etc.  Not to mention, in philosophy also.

ALL these are from MAN including the ones form the Bible.
Agreed, as is the idea of rationality. To claim rationality is universal but morals arent, is...... well.. dumb.

*FYI*
I know you werent claiming that rationality is universal

Primemuscle

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #269 on: May 28, 2012, 10:26:59 AM »
-Seems to me it is possible for someone to be irrational and yet still have very high moral standards. Likewise, rational folks can still be immoral.

avxo

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #270 on: May 28, 2012, 10:38:39 AM »
So wait.. youre saying Morality is subjective but RATIONALITY isnt?

I'm saying that there is a morality based on reason, that it is objective and sensible.


Whats rational to YOU may be highly irrational to someone else.

No. This is a common misconception. If we both have the same set of facts and use reason properly, we will both arrive at the same conclusion. If you think that's not the case, then please, show me a counterargument.


-Seems to me it is possible for someone to be irrational and yet still have very high moral standards. Likewise, rational folks can still be immoral.

Right. But I didn't say that someone who's irrational is, necessarily, immoral, or that someone who's rational is, necessarily, moral.

I said that a morality (i.e. a moral code) based on reason is possible, and that all people who use reason to define a moral code will arrive at the same moral code. I didn't say that people who use reason have to adhere to that moral code, although there are logical reasons to do so.

To claim rationality is universal but morals arent, is...... well.. dumb.

Rationality is universal, we agree on that. While I do believe that you can have a rational morality (which would be universal) I am not convinced that such a morality could account for all the actions we currently consider immoral. Whether that is a deficit is an entirely different subject.

I'll give you an example: a person is in the hospital and he will die because of, say, irreperable heart damage. His kidneys are both in perfect working order. His young nephew is in desperate need of a kidney, and he agrees to undergo a procedure to donate his kidney. Another child could also benefit from the other kidney, but the man refuses to donate or to even sign a donor card, so that after his death his remaining kidney may be used.

I submit that his choice to donate a kidney to his nephew is rational. But is his choice to not donate to the other kid, even after death, rational? Is it moral?

OzmO

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #271 on: May 28, 2012, 10:45:09 AM »


No. This is a common misconception. If we both have the same set of facts and use reason properly, we will both arrive at the same conclusion. If you think that's not the case, then please, show me a counterargument.
Abortion?





avxo

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #272 on: May 28, 2012, 10:46:50 AM »
Abortion?

You would have to try and convince me. I don't believe that abortion is a controversial issue if examined logically, although I agree that it is an excellent counterargument.

Shockwave

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #273 on: May 28, 2012, 10:48:40 AM »

No. This is a common misconception. If we both have the same set of facts and use reason properly, we will both arrive at the same conclusion. If you think that's not the case, then please, show me a counterargument.


Really? So youre saying that if we both have the same facts, I will come to the same conclusion you do because rationality is universal? And if I dont, im acting irrationally (according to you)
Dude....

One example I can think of, happened in Iraq, just off the top of my head.
Man - is injured in crossfire, and will die if doesnt get attention.
One man weighs the options, says, if I run out in into the crossfire Im going to get shot and die, and the other dude is going to die as well. Said man chooses to stay put.
Other man seems the same thing, decides he can make it, and runs out, grabs said man, and returns unhurt.

Situation is the same for both men, yet one saw running out into fire as irrational and the other did not.

Rationality is most certainly NOT universal, as what one person see's as rational somone else will see as totally irrational. Its just as subjective as morality. Maybe moreso.

Youre trying to use your own sense of rationality as a universal to judge morality. That whole line of logic is flawed.

OzmO

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #274 on: May 28, 2012, 11:01:28 AM »
You would have to try and convince me. I don't believe that abortion is a controversial issue if examined logically, although I agree that it is an excellent counterargument.

We have the same facts, and the same rationality but people have 2 different views on it. 

Another angle to this discussion is the phenomenon of Belief being more powerful than fact.